Cop cleared in NYC chokehold death

[Buster]

So going forward, if you are being arrested and say that you can't breathe, will the cops have to let you go on your way?

 

[Steelr4evr]

Don't resist arrest. It's pretty simple. The guy had 31 prior arrests?..good grief he knows what the drill is then. I've had police officers tell me on several occasions(in a friendly setting) in the past they wouldn't even tangle with me,they'd either tase me or shoot me.

 

[thesteelcity]

So going forward, if you are being arrested and say that you can't breathe, will the cops have to let you go on your way?

He was in a choke hold and I said nothing about letting him go. How long before he lost consciousness? I think there are better ways to subdue a person. I give police men and women a ton of respect for what they do. I couldn't do it. This case is a no-win, either way and I doubt its going away anytime soon.

 

[Buster]

I wasn't replying to you specifically. I was just posing a hypothetical question.

 

[Rod Farva]

Big man's widow just on tv saying the cop is still getting paid, still feeding his family and wondering who's going to feed her family. I'm guessing the same people that have always fed them....us.

 

[Bigappleyinzer]

Oh I agree the cop used excessive force. I don't doubt that at all. But we aren't privy to everything the grand jury is, either. I was surprised that there was not an indictment in this case, honestly.

I was telling my daughter the same thing last night. Just listen to the police, do what they say, and you won't end up in a situation like this.

Let's be honest here, Steelerlyn. Your Caucasian daughter (my apologies for assuming) will never have to deal with this. It is highly unlikely that she will ever be profiled or harassed by the police. Telling kids that- "well, just listen to the cops and everything will be fine", does them a disservice and skips over a much larger issue. Why was excessive force used against that man? Why is it more likely that, all things being equal, this is more likely to occur with my nephew than it is your daughter? Difficult questions, but not addressing them just makes things worse.

*gets off soap box*

*prepares himself for the eventual God & Government **** storm*

 

[Rod Farva]

. Telling kids that- "well, just listen to the cops and everything will be fine", does them a disservice and skips over a much larger issue. .

Care to explain that?

 

[thesteelcity]

I wasn't replying to you specifically. I was just posing a hypothetical question.

I understand. That's a tad extreme to what you asked and I'd hope there would be a happy medium. We all know that the world is not black & white. There's a ton of gray in there.

 

[thesteelcity]

I don't know how anyone would think its alright to not do what a cop tells you to do. Resisting arrest is resisting arrest.
I don't know what your nephew is like, bigapple and I would assume he is a good kid. Saying that, if he is not breaking the law and mindling his own business and still is harassed by police, then that certainly is a problem. Racial profiling is an ugly situation that happens a lot. Maybe its training or experience. Telling someone to disobey authority is dangerous advice.

 

[Bigappleyinzer]

Care to explain that?

Sure. It completely absolves any role that race may have played on this situation. It implies that there are no social prejudices not only in law enforcement, but also in some of our social structures.

When the kid grows up to be an adult, they will draw from those shallow lessons. When someone's rights are being infringed upon- they will simply associate "well, that person probably had it coming". Because that is what they were taught.

Hell- even if you dont want discuss race- you can at least explain to them why exactly this was a tragedy and what the cop did was wrong.

 

[Bigappleyinzer]

I don't know how anyone would think its alright to not do what a cop tells you to do. Resisting arrest is resisting arrest.
I don't know what your nephew is like, bigapple and I would assume he is a good kid. Saying that, if he is not breaking the law and mindling his own business and still is harassed by police, then that certainly is a problem. Racial profiling is an ugly situation that happens a lot. Maybe its training or experience. Telling someone to disobey authority is dangerous advice.

I agree with you 100%. It is common sense to obey the cops- even a felon understands this concept.

My problem is that dude wasnt even being arrested from the start of the video clip. He wasnt violent or running away from them. In fact, he had simply finished breaking up a fight between 2 other individuals. The cops were simply harassing him- and it escalated to his death.

We can say it was because of his record (which mainly consist of selling individual cigarettes)- but I dont buy it. Hell, my record is as clean as Wayne Brady and I have been stopped and frisked, pulled over needlessly, followed for no reason, more than I would like to count.

Not saying everyone is racist, or that it justifies burning down buildings- I just think it would help to have an honest discussion without trying to mask the issues.

 

[Steeltime]

This cop obviously used excessive force. This guy, other than verbally resisting, was only accused of some petty crime. Did he really need to be taken down like this?

Good point.

The question is, all perps resist arrest to a certain point. At what point do you use force, and how much is appropriate? Will we now get to a point where our cops will be afraid to use any force, for fear of possible criminal prosecution? We have emasculated our teachers from punishing disruptive students. Is this the next step in the breakdown of our society?

Tried to Rep the post but the stupid karma police stopped me; hamster makes an incredibly important point.

The police need to act within policy. The police cannot use excessive force. However, the undeniable fact is this: the criminals have no limit on their behavior. At a certain point, the police are very measured, cautious and slower to react. That works most of the time, and with most bad guys.

But there are ****-ton of armed and violent criminals in larger cities. If the police doubt their ability to get into confrontations due to the potential for prosecution, they are much more likely - indeed, even encouraged one might say - to simply say, "@#$% it" and walk away. Fewer will want to be police officers, particularly where a confrontation carries with it the possibility of prosecution.

Finding the right balance is becoming more difficult, where what appears to be justifiable use of force (Ferguson cop) is treated the same in public opinion as something that appears to be excessive use of force (the NYPD).

 

[thesteelcity]

I'm sorry to hear about your past harassment, biggie. Its not right and I don't wan't to blanket all cops being bad, just like all white or black people are not bad or racist. I agree there is a problem and needs addressed.
That was kinda my point on the big dude, too. If he was being harrassed for cigarettes or priors, he shouldn't wind up dead. Too far is too far and I'm shocked the cop walked.

 

[thesteelcity]

Good point.



Tried to Rep the post but the stupid karma police stopped me; hamster makes an incredibly important point.

The police need to act within policy. The police cannot use excessive force. However, the undeniable fact is this: the criminals have no limit on their behavior. At a certain point, the police are very measured, cautious and slower to react. That works most of the time, and with most bad guys.

But there are ****-ton of armed and violent criminals in larger cities. If the police doubt their ability to get into confrontations due to the potential for prosecution, they are much more likely - indeed, even encouraged one might say - to simply say, "@#$% it" and walk away. Fewer will want to be police officers, particularly where a confrontation carries with it the possibility of prosecution.

Finding the right balance is becoming more difficult, where what appears to be justifiable use of force (Ferguson cop) is treated the same in public opinion as something that appears to be excessive use of force (the NYPD).

Great points, Steeltime! That's why I said there is so much gray. Not every situation and perp are the same. Its such a difficult and touchy situation. Hope some type of solution is made, but its very tricky to appease everyone.

 

[Rod Farva]

Telling kids that- "well, just listen to the cops and everything will be fine", does them a disservice and skips over a much larger issue.

Sure. It completely absolves any role that race may have played on this situation. It implies that there are no social prejudices not only in law enforcement, but also in some of our social structures.

When the kid grows up to be an adult, they will draw from those shallow lessons. When someone's rights are being infringed upon- they will simply associate "well, that person probably had it coming". Because that is what they were taught.

Hell- even if you dont want discuss race- you can at least explain to them why exactly this was a tragedy and what the cop did was wrong.

Okay, your first comment was evidently misinterpreted by me. I think that telling a kid "well, just listen to the cops and everything will be fine" is actually good advice. The rest of your point(s) are educational points best taught at other times and under different circumstances. I don't think anyone is advocating that kids should be taught things that are untrue, such as that all cops are good people or that no cop has an agenda, racial or other.

What I do advocate is that you do not resist the police during any confrontation or interaction. It will always end badly for the person involved. Any perception of any wrong (rightly or not) on the part of the police should always be dealt with afterward.

 

[IndySteel]

What I do advocate is that you do not resist the police during any confrontation or interaction. It will always end badly for the person involved. Any perception of any wrong (rightly or not) on the part of the police should always be dealt with afterward.

That's crazy talk. You are not down with the struggle.

 

[hamster]

Big man's widow just on tv saying the cop is still getting paid, still feeding his family and wondering who's going to feed her family. I'm guessing the same people that have always fed them....us.

They said the man's got six kids. I doubt he can support them, living in NYC, selling one cigarette at a time. The math is quite clear.

 

[Bigappleyinzer]

They said the man's got six kids. I doubt he can support them, living in NYC, selling one cigarette at a time. The math is quite clear.

Cig prices here in NYC are quite crazy. $14 for a pack. That comes out to $0.70 per death stick.

Lets say he is an enterprising man and charges markup- Lets say $1.50 for 1, $2 for 2. It wouldnt be difficult for him to get an avg. of 5-10 customers every hour, and earn close to $15/hour. Needless to say, he would make more selling loosies than he would flipping burgers

 

[thesteelcity]

hmm, him contributing to heart attacks or lung cancer? Tough call since selling loosies does pay more and he wouldn't have that grease smell soaked in his clothes, skin, etc.

 

[IndySteel]

I remember when it used be "Dime for a smoke?"

 

[Rod Farva]

That's crazy talk. You are not down with the struggle.

And I'm very, very sad about that.

 

[hamster]

Cig prices here in NYC are quite crazy. $14 for a pack. That comes out to $0.70 per death stick.

Lets say he is an enterprising man and charges markup- Lets say $1.50 for 1, $2 for 2. It wouldnt be difficult for him to get an avg. of 5-10 customers every hour, and earn close to $15/hour. Needless to say, he would make more selling loosies than he would flipping burgers

So what was the illegality? I'm confused. If he pays $14.00/pack retail, the Gov't has already gotten their cut. What is the difference between this guy selling these individual smokes, versus a kid with a lemonade stand?

 

[thesteelcity]

So what was the illegality? I'm confused. If he pays $14.00/pack retail, the Gov't has already gotten their cut. What is the difference between this guy selling these individual smokes, versus a kid with a lemonade stand?

I'd think The Man wants a cut off of what he would be making, as well. I've never smoked, so does anyone know if there is "Not For Resale" on a pack or carton? Personally, if the kid added some vodka to the lemonade, their sales would skyrocket. Who wants plain lemonade at $1.00 per Dixie cup? I'm an innovator. . .

 

[Steeltime]

So what was the illegality? I'm confused. If he pays $14.00/pack retail, the Gov't has already gotten their cut.

My understanding is that the cigarettes were brought in from another state. Not sure where. By importing the smokes, the seller avoids the taxes and obtains the smokes at a much lower price (say, $7/pack).

That now works out to a mere 35 cents per smoke. The profit margin on selling the smoke for $1.50 per is now $1.15 per cigarette. (The guy selling the smokes is not driving to wherever and getting the cigarettes, by the way. He is a middle man.) Sell 12 per hour, and now we're talking $13.80/hour, tax free!! That is the equivalent of $17/hour.

P.S. The guy who perished is lucky Bloomberg is no longer mayor of NYC. If Bloomberg learned that the guy was 400 lbs., enjoyed large sodas, and was selling cigarettes, he would have given the cops medals.

 

[Spike]

Will there be riots?