Covid Vaccine

[Tim Steelersfan]

Why should ICUs be filled with preventable disease? Several hospitals around the country are also dealing with the consequences of unvaccinated peoples decisions.

Agreed. Ban Burger King and Wendy's. We'd save lots of heart-related ER trips.

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

You don't want to get vaxxed? That's ok. Go eat somewhere else. Your choice, my choice.

This isn't factual. New York CITY is forcing people to show proof of vaccination. Not the restaurant. So if you don't wanna get vaxed, yeah go eat somewhere else. Like PA, because you aren't eating in Manhattan.

This is the tip of the iceberg. It's coming to a city near you.

 

[oneforthebus]

You are fighting tooth and nail to make them out to be a panacea. When their efficacy of late has waned, you've walked it back saying "they were never supposed to prevent spread." Ummm, yes we WERE told they would.

No, I never once said that they were never supposed to prevent spread. And they do prevent spread, though looks like less effectively with this new variant. We've been told all along that effectiveness might wane over time or be less with new variants. That's nothing new.

Nor did I ever say they were a panacea, or anything like that. At best they were 93% effective. At worst, your stated Israel effectiveness rate of 39% in preventing infection, and much more effective at preventing severe illness. They are still a whole hell of a lot better than nothing.

cannot prevent the virus from spreading (that's dangerous and leading to mutations)

No data to show this at all. Again, delta originated in India in a population where NO ONE was vaccinated yet. Blows this theory right out of the water. You know what does lead to mutations? Unchecked spread of the virus. Any virologist will tell you that, but of course you'll ignore that little tidbit of information.

You want 100% mitigation for everyone...again???

Nope. I want everyone who can be to get vaxxed, yesterday. When hospitals stop filling up with severely ill patients this we'll all be able to live our lives again.

It's like the spanish flu, but it appears you have fallen into the trap of believing Covid is far more serious than it really is. "Oooh, it's highly contagious." So is the cold.

How many hospital and ICU beds are full of cold patients on a normal day? How many months do we have hundreds of people dying every day from colds? Has your kid ever permanently lost one of their senses from a cold? Still struggled to breathe well 6 months after having a cold? Have a blood vessel burst like the guy in the article you posted? You keep quoting the death rate and ignoring every single other consequence of covid.

 

[oneforthebus]

This isn't factual. New York CITY is forcing people to show proof of vaccination. Not the restaurant. So if you don't wanna get vaxed, yeah go eat somewhere else. Like PA, because you aren't eating in Manhattan.

This is the tip of the iceberg. It's coming to a city near you.

And as I've said, I'm opposed to it.

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

But what happens when it's a grocery store, pharmacy, or other business that provides essential services for life? Restaurants and Disney world are luxuries and can be lived without indefinitely. If the Government mandates that essential business disallow people without vax passports entry, they will have ultimately told you to either comply or die. That is a mandate.

Bingo. People have said to me here and elsewhere, the Government isn't going to mandate you get vaccinated.

Yes they will. They won't issue edicts. They do it through indirect force. Oh it's coming to retail and grocery and pharmacies. Then we are all on board by hook and indirect decree.

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

So if your immune compromised wife were to get seriously ill and had to wait for treatment or an ICU bed, you’d still defend the unvaccinated’s decisions and entitlement to those services?

What if his wife was denied an ICU bed because a seriously ill vaccinated person occupied it...? Like the 50% of the beds in Israel that are vaccinated people? Should he have a different reaction?

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

Your mind isn't going to be changed on anything it seems (which is fine, I'm not trying to change it), but how in the world can you say long-term effects when this virus is barely even two years old?

Yep, I get a little perturbed with the pro-vaxers using that phrase. That is "misinformation" to say the "long term effects of" anything related to the virus or the vaccine. **** we've only been injecting people about 9 months now. We've really only been dealing with the virus for 18 months give or take.

No one knows **** about long term, just guesses/hunches based on short-term studies.

Time...will...tell.

 

[oneforthebus]

Yep, I get a little perturbed with the pro-vaxers using that phrase. That is "misinformation" to say the "long term effects of" anything related to the virus or the vaccine. **** we've only been injecting people about 9 months now. We've really only been dealing with the virus for 18 months give or take.

No one knows **** about long term, just guesses/hunches based on short-term studies.

Time...will...tell.

Effects of the virus (or the vaccine) that last for months after having it are long-term effects. Long-term does not mean permanent.

 

[oneforthebus]

CDC Director Rochelle Walensky: The vaccines no longer do anything to prevent the spread of COVID.

Not what she said. She said that IF you get a breakthrough infection, the vaccine may not prevent you from spreading it. You are still less likely to get infected if you are vaccinated.

Fully Vaccinated Half As Likely To Catch Delta Covid Variant And Less Likely To Infect Others, Study Finds

There is a one in 13 chance unvaccinated people will get infected with Covid-19 if exposed to someone with the virus, the researchers found.

www.forbes.com

Vaccinated people half as likely to be infected with COVID-19, new study says

The 37-page study showed participants who reported being vaccinated were at substantially reduced risk of testing positive for COVID-19 compared with those who reported not being vaccinated.

www.fox9.com

 

[oneforthebus]

Bottom line, if you are vaccinated you are less likely to get it, less likely to spread it, and far less likely to become seriously ill with it.

 

[DBS1970]

Bottom line, if you are vaccinated you are less likely to get it, less likely to spread it, and far less likely to become seriously ill with it.

All the breakthrough cases would seem to indicate otherwise. You’re better off if you eat fresh vegetables, exercise outside in the sunlight every day, and get your body weight down. It’s a fast mutating cold virus it’s already mutated past the vaccination.

 

[Steelworth]

Been asking this question for months. Still silence:

 

[oneforthebus]

Maryland weighs in...

Some vaccinated Marylanders still getting COVID-19, but few have died or been hospitalized

Fewer than 0.12% of those fully vaccinated — about 3,836 people — in the state later tested positive for the virus, the Maryland Department of Health reported.

www.baltimoresun.com

Some fully vaccinated Marylanders are continuing to contract COVID-19, but only a small percentage have died or been hospitalized, according state data.
Only 0.12% of those fully vaccinated — about 3,836 people in the state — later tested positive for the virus, the Maryland Department of Health reported.

The 53 fully vaccinated people who died accounted for 3.7% of the deaths confirmed to have been caused by the virus in the state since January, according to the state. The 454 fully vaccinated patients who have been hospitalized represent 3.8% of COVID-19 hospitalizations since then, the state said.
All but 3.2% of all confirmed COVID-19 cases in Maryland have been among the unvaccinated since vaccines began arriving in January 2021, the state reported, adding the data to the bottom of its online coronavirus dashboard Thursday evening.

 

[Tibs]

Science - Go figure.

More than 99.99% of fully vaccinated people have not had a severe breakthrough case, CDC data suggests

The average number of new coronavirus cases in the US has increased ninefold since the beginning of July. Follow the latest updates on vaccines, variants and the pandemic here.

edition.cnn.com

CDC: More than 99.99% of fully vaccinated people have not had a severe breakthrough case of Covid-19​

More than 99.99% of people who are fully vaccinated against Covid-19 have not had a breakthrough case resulting in hospitalization or death, according to a CNN analysis of data from the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

As of Aug. 2, more than 164 million people in the United States were fully vaccinated against Covid-19, according to the CDC. Fewer than 0.001% of those individuals — 1,507 people — died and fewer than 0.005% — 7,101 people — were hospitalized with Covid-19.

CDC last published data on breakthrough cases through July 26. These latest figures include 938 additional severe breakthrough cases — 862 additional hospitalizations and 244 additional deaths — reported over that seven-day period. The CDC does not provide more detail about the timing of the breakthrough cases.

About three-quarters (74%) of all reported breakthrough cases were among seniors age 65 or older. Of the roughly 1,500 people who died, one in five passed away from something other than Covid-19 even though they had a breakthrough case of the virus, according to the CDC.

Since May, the CDC has focused on investigating only hospitalized or fatal cases among those who have been fully vaccinated.

According to the CDC, this data relies on “passive and voluntary reporting” and are a “snapshot” to “help identify patterns and look for signals among vaccine breakthrough cases.”

“To date, no unexpected patterns have been identified in the case demographics or vaccine characteristics among people with reported vaccine breakthrough infections,” according to the CDC.

 

[Troglodyte]

I and many other here object to that statement because it is faulty and born of misinformation and unnecessary fear. This is the flu for the majority of the US population. Targeted treatments should have been taken. Targeted treatments should be being taken now. Instead we are rolling right back into nationwide masking and lockdowns and the destruction of life, an approach that didn't prove to do much previously. Why are we doing this? Because the Govt and the media have overly scared the populace into believing this is far more deadly than it is. "Possibly die." I LOL. It's just...not...that...dangerous. That FEAR is what's enabling these draconian measures that are far more worrisome.



I am. Now, I fully am. Masks don't work. You've even admitted as such. Biden's health dude just admitted, they don't do ****. Shutdowns didn't work. 74% of COVID was spread previously at home, the safest places we could be were out. Yes, I'm against nonsensical restrictions that have been proven to be ineffective.



OK so now that is offensive. You're lumping me into an "anti-vax" bucket. I'm not working to discredit them, I'm sharing what I have seen.

You are fighting tooth and nail to make them out to be a panacea. When their efficacy of late has waned, you've walked it back saying "they were never supposed to prevent spread." Ummm, yes we WERE told they would.

I'm trying be realistic about a set of vaccines that A) cannot prevent the virus from spreading (that's dangerous and leading to mutations), B) has more people getting seriously ill while vaccinated than should be, C) appear to do nothing against the new Lambda variant, and C) have a very, very suspect, growing list of adverse events.

You wanna gloss all of that over, feel free. By sharing this information, I'm not discrediting it. I'm bringing forward data people should consider. There are a LOT of people here who haven't yet or won't take these vaccines. I'm sharing information.

By sharing Walensky's damning statements last week isn't to discredit the vaccine. Everyone was getting vaccines to go see Granny, attend weddings, finally visit their relatives. It was to share updates and news.

Everything about these vaccines we should be discussing, right, wrong, indifferent because it is literally a world-wide test on mankind of unproven technology. Many camps, of which you seem to be one now, are quick to just say "Yep, they work. They told me so. I'm a believer."

I believe we are going to be years learning about what worked and didn't. Sue me for being very, very cautious with what I put in my body.

I understand you and your family have had the vaxes and you have an emotional interest in wanting them to be effective and safe, and you have a medical friend who says mRNA is totally legit and safe. You have your echo chamber. I have a friend/direct neighbor who's a bio scientist at NIH who I lean on heavily who contradicts wholly your medical friend. Who is scared shitless over these vaccines. She's a PHd herself.

Let's leave it as we have different opinions. You're fighting tooth and nail to make the vaccines into an infallible panacea. They are not. Let's let the situation evolve, let's discuss it, let's allow others to disagree.




The right to make my own choice, to assume my own risks. Period.

If these mandates come, it's the beginning of a very nasty slippery slope that will never end. We thought banning sugary sodas was bad. This will upend the world. I don't think people see that. This is bigger than a slightly worse version of the flu. If we allow governments to mandate vaccines, watch what happens in a decade in terms of what information you have to start providing in your passports.

I'm as confident in making this awful prediction as I was in saying that defunding the police would lead to a rise in crime.

Never in the history of this country, that I'm aware of, were you forced to show you were vaccinated against the measles or small pox to sit down and eat a burger. This is Orwell-level scary ****.



TARGETED treatment as many have been saying all along. My son shouldn't have to lose his senior year of high school basketball because granny in a nursing home might be at risk. Not when he is part of a population that only 0.000004 died of. They are essentially immune. The schooling they lost last year? Their social activities? Their growth and development? An abject disaster.

So now we want to go right back to doing exactly what we were doing before. It didn't work then, it won't work now.

And don't say vaccines are the answer. The Government bases policy off of CASES by and large. And the vaccines are not stopping the spread, in fact they may be increasing spread.

We need a different approach. We protect the most vulnerable, we employ a strategy to protect them while the rest of us bravely fight this and develop mankind-wide immunity measures.

You want 100% mitigation for everyone...again???

I'm stunned if you do.



You keep saying that, but your words say you're just fine with it.



That's intellectual dishonesty. The Government is mandating all soldiers get the vax. New York government is mandating businesses not allow people in without proof of vaccination. Guiseppe's Pizza isn't making that call. The CA Government has been talking about a vaccine passport for months...that would trickle down to businesses.

I believe a few businesses themselves would want to make this decision, but only a few. It is Federal, State and local driven by and large. It is NOT business owners saying it. It's GOVT driven.

And finally, yes it's Guiseppe's right not not allow people in his store without proof of Covid vaccine. I'd ask Guiseppe, why haven't you previously asked to see people's measles, small pox, diptheria, and rubella proofs of vaccine?

IF THIS WAS EBOLA, I'd be down for it.

This is not ebola. It's not close to Ebola. It's not in the same universe as Ebola. It's like the spanish flu, but it appears you have fallen into the trap of believing Covid is far more serious than it really is. "Oooh, it's highly contagious." So is the cold.

What you believe apparently believe COVID to be in terms of deadliness and what it really is are leagues apart.

This is not the bubonic plague, the black plague, an ebola pandemic. It's a slightly worse version of the flu.

Our reactions to this Spanish Flu-like endemic are Bubonic-plague like. We are doing an amputation for a mosquito bite.

The over-reaction is destroying lives. Countless lives.

“74% of Covid was spread at home, the safest places we could be were out”

You can’t be that obtuse. How did it get into people’s homes, Tim?

 

[oneforthebus]

No one is saying it has. I have not. Delta variant was discovered last year. As your article said, in October 2020. Before the vaccines were released. Many variants were apparently discovered.

This article really doesn't make a point.

Studies have been done on leaky vaccines. Leaky vaccines are those vaccines that DO NOT PREVENT THE SPREAD OF A VIRUS. That allows the virus to hop from host to host to host. Where it encounters different people, with different immune systems, using different vaccines, and it mutates to thrive and remain active.

It was warned in studies in 2015 that leaky vaccines could happen with humans if we released vaccines that treat symptoms but not spread.

I can't say it is happening. But it sure appears these vaccines fit the definition. They do not prevent spread, only address symptoms and now we have a variant in Lambda that the current vaccines are 100% ineffective against.

Wait and see.

Where have you seen that current vaccines are 100% ineffective against lambda?

 

[Tibs]

Where have you seen that current vaccines are 100% ineffective against lambda?

You don't want to know. Likely InfoWars & Alex Jones, some crap like that. Or some anti-American wackadoo like Rand Paul. What the **** is wrong with these people?

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

These Israeli COVID graphs prove Pfizer vaccine works

***

www.haaretz.com

And Israel checks in:

These Israeli COVID graphs prove Pfizer vaccine works

***

www.haaretz.com

As of August 8, the ministry recorded 85.6 severe COVID-19 cases per 100,000 people among the unvaccinated over the age of 60, compared to 16.3 per 100,000 people among the fully vaccinated. This makes the unvaccinated elderly more than five times as likely to experience a severe case than their immunized counterparts.

For those under the age of 60, the rate of severe illness among the unvaccinated stood at 1.4 cases per 100,000 people – 2.8 times more than the 0.5 per 100,000 among those who received two doses of the vaccine.

OK I'll counter this in the spirit of correcting misinformation. Or should I say, spin. I don't dispute what they say. What they say, what they omit, and how they say what they say should be analyzed. This article is a misrepresentation of the overall data. I am using the data from Israel's Ministry of Health dashboard.

You can go download the data here: https://datadashboard.health.gov.il/COVID-19/general?utm_source=go.gov.il&utm_medium=referral



Click on the download arrow, open it in a spreadsheet. It's all in Hebrew. Took me 10 minutes to use Google translate. Easy. It's now in a sortable sheet.

Under 60 Population:
The article is cherry picking data. For example, it says "For those under the age of 60, the rate of severe illness among the unvaccinated stood at 1.4 cases per 100,000 people – 2.8 times more than the 0.5 per 100,000 among those who received two doses of the vaccine."

That's true. What the article omits is the rate that these figures have grown from July 11 to today:



The article talks about a moment in time for one segment of the population - "under 60." Why didn't they analyze all of the groups? For this population, they haveen't analyzed the rate at which the serious illnesses are growing. July 11 to August 9, the absolute cases for unvaccinated grew by 500%, partially vaccinated barely moved, but the # of severely ill fully vaccinated grew by 850%. However, the rate "per 100K" bodes very well for the vaccinated.

Let's keep going.

General Population (includes the elderly and those under 60):
A bit of a different story here when you look at ALL of Israel.



The unvaccinated severely ill grew by 565%, partially vaccinated grew by 800%, and the vaccinated grew by 759%.

But look at the rates per 100K now in the ENTIRE population: Unvaccinated 3.8 per 100K, Partially Vaccinated 4.1 per 100K, and Fully Vaccinated 4.1 per 100K.

When you look at the entire population, TODAY, the rate of seriously ill people is GREATER among the vaccinated populations than it is for the unvaccinated.

Over 60 Population:

This data shows the vaccines are very effective for the over 60 crowd. Zero question.



The unvaccinated seriously ill grew 608%, the partially vaccinated grew 600%, the vaccinated grew 752%.

It all depends on how you look at the data and that article looked at it myopically. In the GENERAL POPULATION, the rate of serious illness per 100K is currently, TODAY, worse for the partially and fully vaccinated.

Not sure how you can spin that unless you do what this article did.

Clearly the vaccine is working wonders for the elderly. But for the general population, the argument is much different.

 

[Superman]

You don't want to know. Likely InfoWars & Alex Jones, some crap like that. Or some anti-American wackadoo like Rand Paul. What the **** is wrong with these people?

I don't put much stock into what anyone says on the virus, or its variants. but, in this case and going forward, anyone YOU refer to as an "anti-American wacakdoo" will now be considered "one smart ************ who knows what he's talking about and isnt full of **** like American Patriot Michael Avenatti"

 

[Superman]

Tim won't rest until we're all dead. That is the by-the-book definition of a death cult.

a huge step over the line. I'll give you a few minutes to remove this before I do.

 

[Tibs]

a huge step over the line. I'll give you a few minutes to remove this before I do.

What I wrote is the truth, as much as it hurts to be confronted with it. Since you demanded I do so, I removed my comment.

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

They are still a whole hell of a lot better than nothing.

Agreed. If you turn on a TV ever and listen to the daily barrage of commercials, THEY keep telling Americans that the vaccines prevent the spread of COVID.

The President, who we both agree "isn't there" said in front of cameras, point blank..."If you get the vaccine, you won't get Covid."

They are better than nothing. I won't be bullied into people think I believe otherwise. They are however not what they initially hoped they would be. It would appear, many degrees less effective.

No data to show this at all.

No data. What about the CDC director's verbatim statement on CNN? I'm merely repeating what she has said. You disagree with her? Rochelle Walensky - “Our vaccines are working exceptionally well. They continue to work well for Delta, with regard to severe illness and death – they prevent it. But what they can’t do anymore is prevent transmission.”

Again, delta originated in India in a population where NO ONE was vaccinated yet. Blows this theory right out of the water. You know what does lead to mutations? Unchecked spread of the virus. Any virologist will tell you that, but of course you'll ignore that little tidbit of information.

I fully understand that unmitigated spread leads to mutations. Where have I said it doesn't? However, it is willfully ignorant to ignore the leaky vaccines theory. In conjunction with the unvaccinated spreading COVID, so too does the spread of the virus among the vaccinated. Combine them. You now have a world-wide environment where the unvaccinated AND the vaccinated keep allowing the virus to spread. It therefore will mutate.

Why is this difficult to comprehend?

Until we can stop the spread, or greatly minimize it, the virus will mutate.

Nope. I want everyone who can be to get vaxxed, yesterday. When hospitals stop filling up with severely ill patients this we'll all be able to live our lives again.

Can you provide data on hospitals filling up and being over capacity? I'm looking at maps provided by different sources, and while there are pockets of high capacity, it is by no means widespread or even close to a majority of our ICU beds are full.

How many hospital and ICU beds are full of cold patients on a normal day? How many months do we have hundreds of people dying every day from colds? Has your kid ever permanently lost one of their senses from a cold? Still struggled to breathe well 6 months after having a cold? Have a blood vessel burst like the guy in the article you posted? You keep quoting the death rate and ignoring every single other consequence of covid.

And those of you, on the side you appear to now be firmly planted in, fail to consider the opposite. How many people are losing everything because of restrictions? We just came off of our worst year in history for overdose deaths. Domestic violence soared. Tens or hundreds of thousands of businesses lost. How many people died due to the lockdowns? We may never know, but we know last year's excess deaths were in part fueled by people who died who otherwise would not have due to lack of health care.

There are costs on both sides of the equation..

We need balance. We need to protect the vulnerable, like those you know. The elderly. And we need to let the rest of the population live. One size fits all is a horrible approach.

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

Effects of the virus (or the vaccine) that last for months after having it are long-term effects. Long-term does not mean permanent.

We can agree to disagree. I don't view months of complications to a vaccine or the virus as being long term. Doctors don't even agree on what long term means. It has different definitions whether you are discussing medicines, disease effects, complications from surgical procedures, etc.

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

Not what she said. She said that IF you get a breakthrough infection, the vaccine may not prevent you from spreading it. You are still less likely to get infected if you are vaccinated.

Fully Vaccinated Half As Likely To Catch Delta Covid Variant And Less Likely To Infect Others, Study Finds

There is a one in 13 chance unvaccinated people will get infected with Covid-19 if exposed to someone with the virus, the researchers found.

www.forbes.com

Vaccinated people half as likely to be infected with COVID-19, new study says

The 37-page study showed participants who reported being vaccinated were at substantially reduced risk of testing positive for COVID-19 compared with those who reported not being vaccinated.

www.fox9.com

I'll post it again. This is exactly what she said. The clip is still out there on CNN. Now you can try to argue you she misspoke, but this is WHAT she stated.

Rochelle Walensky - “Our vaccines are working exceptionally well. They continue to work well for Delta, with regard to severe illness and death – they prevent it. But what they can’t do anymore is prevent transmission.”

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

Science - Go figure.

More than 99.99% of fully vaccinated people have not had a severe breakthrough case, CDC data suggests

The average number of new coronavirus cases in the US has increased ninefold since the beginning of July. Follow the latest updates on vaccines, variants and the pandemic here.

edition.cnn.com

CDC: More than 99.99% of fully vaccinated people have not had a severe breakthrough case of Covid-19​

More than 99.99% of people who are fully vaccinated against Covid-19 have not had a breakthrough case resulting in hospitalization or death, according to a CNN analysis of data from the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

As of Aug. 2, more than 164 million people in the United States were fully vaccinated against Covid-19, according to the CDC. Fewer than 0.001% of those individuals — 1,507 people — died and fewer than 0.005% — 7,101 people — were hospitalized with Covid-19.

CDC last published data on breakthrough cases through July 26. These latest figures include 938 additional severe breakthrough cases — 862 additional hospitalizations and 244 additional deaths — reported over that seven-day period. The CDC does not provide more detail about the timing of the breakthrough cases.

About three-quarters (74%) of all reported breakthrough cases were among seniors age 65 or older. Of the roughly 1,500 people who died, one in five passed away from something other than Covid-19 even though they had a breakthrough case of the virus, according to the CDC.

Since May, the CDC has focused on investigating only hospitalized or fatal cases among those who have been fully vaccinated.

According to the CDC, this data relies on “passive and voluntary reporting” and are a “snapshot” to “help identify patterns and look for signals among vaccine breakthrough cases.”

“To date, no unexpected patterns have been identified in the case demographics or vaccine characteristics among people with reported vaccine breakthrough infections,” according to the CDC.

I still object to this claim. I have no proof that it is false, save to point to England, Israel and other countries which have vastly different numbers. I'm not sure how the USA, who you Liberals all argued terribly, horribly managed the COVID response, now leads the world with this 99% number while other countries do not.

Time will tell.