I think I figured out why we are $20 Trillion (and counting) in debt

[Sarge]

No family could survive for long doing business this way. Not sure how our government has gotten away with it for decades.


https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/terence-p-jeffrey/feds-collect-record-taxes-through-november-still-run-2018b-deficit

 

[Sarge]

I think it is an outrage. Running a $100 billion a month deficit is no way to do business. And the answer is always to tax more. When are these ***** gonna stop wasting taxpayer money?

 

[Superman]

they won't. they can't
we need more and more government services. always. government rarely, if ever, shrinks. government employees are genuinely lackadaisical in how they perform their jobs, as it can take an act of Congress to get their jobs cut.

On the flip side, however, and libs will point to defense spending. we are investing a **** ton in weaponry technology and development. What the libs do not understand is that this helps assure they have the right to protest every single damn thing they can possibly have a meltdown over. They point to the spending by other countries on their own defense spending and see ours as excessive. While it is large, defense spending can trickle down to consumer technology as well.

kinda like this here internet. but facts are racist.

anyway, there must be a middle ground somewhere. while defense spending is high, so is government expansion to include salaries, raises, pensions, etc etc for not only hired government employees, but also the pols. which is absolutely disgusting. politicians should never EVER make more than the average of their constituents. Nor should they have any latitude in skirting the law.

the government is a cluster of spiraled, interlacing ****-ups and every four years we get smoke blown up our *** about fixing it. though it never gets fixed. ever.

 

[Spike]

It don't matter now - we're never getting $20T back- spend it like u stole it

We only need one good World War against China in the next 100 years to wipe out our debts. No worries

 

[deljzc]

I'm not saying this is right or wrong, but we have been able to borrow like crazy because interest rates are just super low.

First, let's just get a few things straight about the $20 trillion debt (rounded for ease of conversation).

1. Almost 1/4 of this debt is actually INTRAGOVERNMENT debt. Which means one part of the federal government (mostly social security but there are also retirement packages, etc.) has purchased treasury notes from the U.S. in cash. That's $5 trillion that's really a shell game. I mean if the government doesn't pay the interest on this money, they still pay in the end.

2. The remaining $15 trillion of debt is "Private" and mostly treasury notes and bonds. Of this about $6 trillion is owned overseas, $1 trillion by state/local governments (in their pension funds), $1.6 trillion in mutual funds, Federal Reserve owns $2.5 trillion in notes/bonds, etc.

Now in 2008, when Bush left office, we only had $5.8 trillion in total "Public" debt but because that was borrowed with pretty high interest rates (they averaged about 5-6% during the last 10 years), the government was paying (in cash) about $250 billion in interest payments per year.

When Obama came into office, he kind of worked with Janet Yellen and the Fed to low interest rates like crazy. They lowered the interest rate from 3.7% in 2008 to 1.8% in 2012. And this whole time Obama borrowed like ******* crazy. I mean, we all know the numbers. In those five years he doubled the Private debt. Almost to $12 trillion. That's literally $1 trillion of "Private" debt borrowing (on average) per year.

But do you know what all the borrowing did for our interest expenses? Nothing. In fact, interest payments WENT DOWN. We started paying $250 billion a year in interest payments, right (last year of Bush). Obama's government never, ever paid more than that through his entire Presidency. The government paid $187B, $196B, $230B, $220B, $221B, $229B, $223B and $233B as our actual interest payments during every year of Obama.

That's one of the reasons I'm so pissed at our economic recovery. The government pumped into the economy almost $8 trillion in stimulus money into our economy, they never ONCE paid more on interest every year and yet all that money only got us about 1.5% growth.

So now the shell game is really about not what we borrow but what the interest rate is. That's why what the Fed decides over the next 3 years of Trump's Presidency is so important (and could be political). Can we keep borrowing (and Trump's Presidency is forecasting LESS deficit spending than Obama ever did), without having our debt payments just go through the roof. Because we are getting to a point where our new borrowing deals are going to REPLACE old loans we have REALLY low interest rates on (like 2%). Even if we borrow the same amount of money that comes off the books, the difference in interest rates (say to 4%) could quickly double our interest payments per year from $250 billion to $500 billion by the end of Trump's first term.

And that's the threat. Not borrowing but how much we borrow vs. the interest rates the Fed is ******* around with.

When interest rates get too high we either need to make MORE REVENUE (which is what the Republicans are banking on) or SPEND LESS (also what the Republicans want to do).

There is NO democrat solution to this issue. The Hillary/Bernie solution was only viable if they continued to maintain a very slow growth economy (1%) caused by tax hikes which forced the Fed to keep interest rates super low so they could continue borrowing.

 

[Booted]

The 20 Trillion debt is just a hoax like global warming.

 

[DBS1970]

The reason why is simple. Universal suffrage, it is the killer of republics and always has been. Politicians realize they can develop voting blocks through patronage and dependency. This is why the Republicans don't simply repeal Bommacare outright, it has become an entitlement for the leach class. In short those that vote for a living outnumber those of us that work for a living and until we eliminate the vote from those who are not net taxpayers it will not change.

 

[Spike]

A trillion here and a trillion there, pretty soon you're talking about real money.

 

[Steelr4evr]

We spend too much and have too many programs. And they want more always.A money sucking black hole. The government seems to think our money belongs to them. The fruits of your labor belong to them. They already have control over everything. Healthcare was the last big one. You see how they squirm to get out if their promises to repeal that middle class rape. That's big control to put it back in the hands of the people and free markets.

This country needs a convention of the State's and some major government downsizing. They've become too powerful and corrupted. I'm sure the founders would be in shock at the taxation going on.

 

[Sarge]

A 2 cent tax on tea was one of the main catalysts of the American Revolution. Now we are taxed to the tune of Trillions, and it would be more trillions if the government had their way. Even in the face of all of that, most Americans simply do not give a ****, and some even think we should be taxed more. It is beyond ridiculous. Yes, the government needs taxes to provide services, I get it. But they do not need to be a cradle to the grave support system for the lazy and uninspired.

 

[DBS1970]

A 2 cent tax on tea was one of the main catalysts of the American Revolution. Now we are taxed to the tune of Trillions, and it would be more trillions if the government had their way. Even in the face of all of that, most Americans simply do not give a ****, and some even think we should be taxed more. It is beyond ridiculous. Yes, the government needs taxes to provide services, I get it. But they do not need to be a cradle to the grave support system for the lazy and uninspired.

That's because everybody paid that tax. Currently only about 40% pay taxes.

 

[21STEELERS21]

The 20 trillion of debt are taxes that haven't been paid for. The American people are taxed when the government spends the money.
The reason for the debt is that Congress starting with Regan passed tax payment cuts without cutting the government spending to pay for
them. The Republicans are the ones that pass tax payment cuts without first cutting government spending to justify them. Republicans are largely
responsible for all the debt. If you don't believe that can you name a democratic tax cut that wasn't paid for?

 

[ark steel]

The 20 trillion of debt are taxes that haven't been paid for. The American people are taxed when the government spends the money.
The reason for the debt is that Congress starting with Regan passed tax payment cuts without cutting the government spending to pay for
them. The Republicans are the ones that pass tax payment cuts without first cutting government spending to justify them. Republicans are largely
responsible for all the debt. If you don't believe that can you name a democratic tax cut that wasn't paid for?

Well, WE evil conservatives don't believe it costs government anything to let people keep their own money. So, "paying for" a tax cut is a misnomer. Spending should have been cut. it wasn't because grandma was going to die in the street gnawing no an unopened can of cat food because she couldn't afford a can opener and her meds.

That evil Regan debt? Congress was full of Democrats at the time. More money started rolling in, they spent it. Why did GHWB lose his re-election? Because he proved not to be an actual conservative and people didn't see a difference between him and Billy. Billy got the benefit of the GOP congress and their Contract with America. W seemed to be a conservative and got a lot of support because of it. His re-election was, mainly, due to the ****** opponent, IMO, rather than faith in him.

Debt is not taxes that haven't been paid for. That is like saying my credit card debt is income I haven't earned. What a ridiculous statement.

 

[MT~Forged]

The 20 trillion of debt are taxes that haven't been paid for. The American people are taxed when the government spends the money.
The reason for the debt is that Congress starting with Regan passed tax payment cuts without cutting the government spending to pay for
them. The Republicans are the ones that pass tax payment cuts without first cutting government spending to justify them. Republicans are largely
responsible for all the debt. If you don't believe that can you name a democratic tax cut that wasn't paid for?

Democrats don’t cut taxes, EVER. They are the party of tax and spend. The Republicans are the party of spend and give away money to the rich. Not really a whole lot of difference.

 

[deljzc]

Over the last 50 yearsI really haven't liked either side's tax policies or action. I favor Republicans as the lesser of two evils because at least they slow government revenue. But Republicans have never really followed through on spending controls.

I heard today that the "deal" they are coming to between the House and Senate tax bill now has the top tax rate being lowered from 39% to 37% and the corporate tax rate going down only to 21% now. They are getting rid of the problem with graduate students the media killed them about. They are increasing the mortgage deduction from the first planned $500k to $750k (it's currently $1 million). Deductions for state/local taxes is capped at $10,000.

The big plan is still doubling the personal "blanket" deduction (if you decide not to itemize) and doubling the deduction value for our kids.

I'm actually worried this is turning into too much of a "cut". The first plan partly paid for the cut by penalizing high tax states and those "middle class" people in high cost-of-living areas making like $250,000 and having $700,000 mortgages. But since then, all I've seen is roll backs in these ideas. And that money has to come from somewhere else.

I don't like the "new" news they are lowering the top rate to 37% either. Not unless I hear about closing deduction loopholes for the ultra wealthy ($1 million +) and I haven't heard anything about that. For me, there's no reason to do that and I am very curious which congressmen are pushing for this to get their vote. This tax plan should be about lowering corporate tax rates and making flyover middle class Americans in the $60k-$100k range save money and make their taxes easy to do. If the tax plan wanted to punish the elitist coastal states at the expense of middle America, I was actually okay with that.

But it's morphing into a bit of a hodge podge of a little bit of everything for everyone and I'm really not sure we can afford it. There are just too many costs of the government that are fixed right now and fighting for less spending just never seems to materialize into reality.