I think I should explain WHY I'm a Civil Libertarian

[MT~Forged]

Too many good people in the middle that are willing to let the very small minority on each end run things. Tail wagging the dog.

 

[Steel Not A Player]

Too many good people in the middle that are willing to let the very small minority on each end run things. Tail wagging the dog.

Agree.

Too many people are disengaged from the process entirely. Their entire knowledge of an issue is one or two media talking points. One of the pitfalls of a high standard of living is that comfortable people tend to be lazy and apathetic.

 

[CharlesDavenport]

Charles,

FWIW, if you look it up, you will find that the addictiveness of both alcohol and nicotine to be greater than that of pot. You will also find that usage under the age of 25 is not recommended by any respected science that I've seen.....for any of the them.

And if you look really hard at straight line statistics about deaths related to abuse or overuse of pot and compare that to alcohol or nicotine, well, you'd be amazed. Alcohol poisoning/OD kills many, many kids each year, cigarettes cause innumerable health issues and pot causes.......munchies?

It doesn't matter because you won't believe me. I was in your position just over a year ago. Then I had need to do much research. It is really stunning if you allow yourself some time to think beyond that which the guvmint and big pharma and the DEA wants you to believe. But that won't matter until you actually have a reason to figure it out for yourself. I figure I was about 12 months late. I hope that you are more timely than I was.

No doubt, but I prefer my society not to normalize pot usage because it will inevitably lead to more usage in general and that includes kids. That other harmful substances are legal doesn't factor into my arguments. I am not a libertarian on this issue.

 

[ark steel]

War was very different then. Having small arms meant you could protect yourself from the government. It doesn't mean that in the age of smart bombs, drones and cruise missiles. When Old Ironsides comes rolling down main street, you're punkass AR-15 ain't about to do **** about it.

The Iraqis and afghan people seem to be doing OK.

 

[Stainless]

The Iraqis and afghan people seem to be doing OK.

They can smell them coming.

 

[Ron Burgundy]

Agree.

Too many people are disengaged from the process entirely. Their entire knowledge of an issue is one or two media talking points. One of the pitfalls of a high standard of living is that comfortable people tend to be lazy and apathetic.

I worked a poll in 2008. About 20% of the people got turned away because they were at the wrong precinct. All they knew was that they wanted to vote for the black guy for President and "Oh look, there's a place to vote". This tells me that they were disengaged from the process because where you vote affects voting for your town councilman, state rep, state senator, U.S. Rep, etc. Guaranteed that none of them knows who their councilman is or who is on the school board or even the name of the mayor. Far too many people only turn out to vote once every four years for the President and don't know what the **** is going on the rest of the time.

 

[MT~Forged]

I'm sorry, but there has to be a point where you have to take an IQ test to enjoy a few opportunities in life.
1. Driving a car.
2. Having Kids
3. Voting for ANYONE.

 

[Steel Not A Player]

I worked a poll in 2008. About 20% of the people got turned away because they were at the wrong precinct. All they knew was that they wanted to vote for the black guy for President and "Oh look, there's a place to vote". This tells me that they were disengaged from the process because where you vote affects voting for your town councilman, state rep, state senator, U.S. Rep, etc. Guaranteed that none of them knows who their councilman is or who is on the school board or even the name of the mayor. Far too many people only turn out to vote once every four years for the President and don't know what the **** is going on the rest of the time.

Where I live they show up to vote for "whoever the Republican is." Don't ask these clucks to name the guy, that would require actually reading the ballot. I'd rather people DIDN'T turn out just to vote the party line. And don't get me started on the crazies: The "Truthers" and the "Birthers" and the "Illuminati" people.

 

[SteelChip]

And don't get me started on the crazies: The "Truthers" and the "Birthers" and the "Illuminati" people.

I'm thinking that you just throw this kinda stuff out there to counter other statements like JonBoy's.....

Originally Posted by Ron Burgundy..I worked a poll in 2008. About 20% of the people got turned away because they were at the wrong precinct.

Having nothing factual to add or rebut with, you use fringe and mythic people or organizations to bolster your tale. I saw the phrase you used... 'the "Illuminati" people' and lost my teeth into my cereal. WTF is an Illuminati and how in the world would you know it if you did happen to see one ? From what I can gather, they were a secret organization of wealthy elites that were disbanded in the 17th century. If you got them people voting in your neighborhood, then you fur shur got the Chicago dead people voters beat all to hell.

I had to look it up just for ***** and giggles. On a website proposing that they indeed exist, they say....

The Illuminati (not to be confused with the Bavarian Illuminati; more about that later) is a very secretive group of occult practitioners who have been around for thousands and thousands of years and are using the Jewish Cabala as one of their guidelines to oppress the rest of the population. It is not a boys' club or a group of adults trying to get some excitement in life; this is something much bigger and much more sinister. It is an extremely well structured organization consisting of people in very High Places. Those people are the Super Wealthy, who stand above the law. Many of them don't even appear on the list of the wealthiest people in the world - they are that secret. What is driving them is power, money and control over life and death of others and themselves.

And you got these super secret sneaky rich people roamin' around your crib ?
Be careful there SNAP, Coolie don't cotton too good to trolls gin'in up tales just to stir ****.

 

[Stewey]

Where I live they show up to vote for "whoever the Republican is." Don't ask these clucks to name the guy, that would require actually reading the ballot. I'd rather people DIDN'T turn out just to vote the party line. And don't get me started on the crazies: The "Truthers" and the "Birthers" and the "Illuminati" people.

Nice try but stupidity rules the left and I don't think I need to link the countless videos that support that. The "crazies" you mention most likely understand the issues, and most likely know who the vice president or their congressman is, or who John Boehner, and Harry Reed are. The only thing the vast majority of liberal/democrat voters know and care about is that the democrats are the party of "free stuff".

I can't prove it, but I would bet that you are more likely to have an intelligent political debate with the average off the street Republican more than you would with the average off the street democrat.
Plain stupidity, the lack of knowledge over the principles of which our nation was founded, and being oblivious of the issues is why we have democrats in office.
Only democrat voters would vote for the likes of Al Franken, Marion Berry...or vote for politicians that think islands float and that there exists today two Vietnams. And voted twice for a socialistic anti American president that vowed he would "fundamentally transform" America.

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

Where I live they show up to vote for "whoever the Republican is." Don't ask these clucks to name the guy, that would require actually reading the ballot. I'd rather people DIDN'T turn out just to vote the party line. And don't get me started on the crazies: The "Truthers" and the "Birthers" and the "Illuminati" people.

At times you post stuff and I thinks to meself, "he's not that stupid, he makes a good point here."

Then you go and absolutely redeem yourself by posting something this moronic.

 

[oneforthebus]

Where I live they show up to vote for "whoever the Republican is." Don't ask these clucks to name the guy, that would require actually reading the ballot. I'd rather people DIDN'T turn out just to vote the party line. And don't get me started on the crazies: The "Truthers" and the "Birthers" and the "Illuminati" people.

I vote straight party line all the time.

Do I always know everything or like everything about the candidates? No. What I do know is that most Dems' entire platform can be basically summed up as "We need more funding for....(fill in the blank)." If I find a Dem who actually thinks government should streamlined and made more efficient and effective, instead of one who simply believes the government needs more of my money, I'll consider voting for one. If I find a libertarian who has a snowball's chance of winning, I'll vote for one. Hasn't happened yet.

 

[JupiterBnG]

I vote straight party line all the time.

Do I always know everything or like everything about the candidates? No. What I do know is that most Dems' entire platform can be basically summed up as "We need more funding for....(fill in the blank)." If I find a Dem who actually thinks government should streamlined and made more efficient and effective, instead of one who simply believes the government needs more of my money, I'll consider voting for one. If I find a libertarian who has a snowball's chance of winning, I'll vote for one. Hasn't happened yet.

The Libertarians don't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning because of people like you who don't bother to understand the candidates and just vote the party line. Libertarian candidates are likely to be more conservative (in that they adhere to certain ideals that many so-called Republicans seem to long for) than the Republicans you're voting for, and your beloved Republicans' platform can be summed up as "We need more funding for..." as well. People (mainly Republicans who don't want to have to think too hard) think Libertarians are just a bunch of hippies that want to legalize drugs and force people to have abortions, but the biggest concerns for most real Libertarians are smaller government, fiscal responsibility and the preservation of individual liberty as guaranteed by the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

My dad is one of your typical Fox News-watching, Obama-hating Republicans (inexplicable, considering he came up as a pot-smoking, long-haired, card-carrying union guy), and I just laugh to myself at how ridiculous his pabulum is, as he regurgitates the Fox talking points and Truther garbage, but has no idea what it really means to be conservative.

 

[oneforthebus]

The Libertarians don't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning because of people like you who don't bother to understand the candidates and just vote the party line. Libertarian candidates are likely to be more conservative (in that they adhere to certain ideals that many so-called Republicans seem to long for) than the Republicans you're voting for, and your beloved Republicans' platform can be summed up as "We need more funding for..." as well. People (mainly Republicans who don't want to have to think too hard) think Libertarians are just a bunch of hippies that want to legalize drugs and force people to have abortions, but the biggest concerns for most real Libertarians are smaller government, fiscal responsibility and the preservation of individual liberty as guaranteed by the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

My dad is one of your typical Fox News-watching, Obama-hating Republicans (inexplicable, considering he came up as a pot-smoking, long-haired, card-carrying union guy), and I just laugh to myself at how ridiculous his pabulum is, as he regurgitates the Fox talking points and Truther garbage, but has no idea what it really means to be conservative.

I understand Libertarianism and conservatism quite well thanks. I don't agree with either party line on all issues. And no, it's not because of me that they don't have a chance, it's because they have failed to put forth a candidate who's managed to capture the public interest. It's too bad that not everyone votes on the issues, but the reality is they don't. Until conservatives start to put forth candidates who can appeal to the masses and explain conservatism in clear ways that everyone can embrace, they will continue to lose.

As for me, I will never vote for anyone who's polling at 3%, has zero chance of winning, and risk helping elect another Obama or his more local equivalents.

 

[JupiterBnG]

I understand Libertarianism and conservatism quite well thanks. I don't agree with either party line on all issues. And no, it's not because of me that they don't have a chance, it's because they have failed to put forth a candidate who's managed to capture the public interest.

Bad news: so have the Republicans for the last couple of cycles, and this upcoming election isn't looking much better at this point, despite the sea change in Congress. No one really wants another Bush in office, Romney won't manage to attract any more voters than his previous attempts, and the rest of the field are simply not Presidential caliber for numerous reasons. President Christie? Hahahahahahahaha....

And I have worse news for you - it's going to get a lot worse before it gets any better, because not only will the next President be a Dem, I strongly suspect the Dems will retake Congress too. A lot of key seats are up for grabs, and I don't see the Republicans holding onto their tenuous position.

We've had this discussion plenty in the past - the two-party system is just broken. Without serious campaign finance reform and term limits, it will continue to be a good-ol-boy network of paid political influence run by giant corporations and special interest groups, where voters' needs and desires simply don't matter, and neither the Democrats or Republicans are going to make the changes that are needed to eliminate the corruption. I also understand that a "one Libertarian at a time" approach will never work either, but I'll continue to vote my conscience, vote the issues, and not just vote for "anyone but that guy."

 

[Steel Not A Player]

I'm thinking that you just throw this kinda stuff out there to counter other statements like JonBoy's.....



Having nothing factual to add or rebut with, you use fringe and mythic people or organizations to bolster your tale. I saw the phrase you used... 'the "Illuminati" people' and lost my teeth into my cereal. WTF is an Illuminati and how in the world would you know it if you did happen to see one ? From what I can gather, they were a secret organization of wealthy elites that were disbanded in the 17th century. If you got them people voting in your neighborhood, then you fur shur got the Chicago dead people voters beat all to hell.

I had to look it up just for ***** and giggles. On a website proposing that they indeed exist, they say....


And you got these super secret sneaky rich people roamin' around your crib ?
Be careful there SNAP, Coolie don't cotton too good to trolls gin'in up tales just to stir ****.

Oh really. Making up tales, am I? Mmm kay. Let's here from some more of you then...

Nice try but stupidity rules the left and I don't think I need to link the countless videos that support that. The "crazies" you mention most likely understand the issues, and most likely know who the vice president or their congressman is, or who John Boehner, and Harry Reed are. The only thing the vast majority of liberal/democrat voters know and care about is that the democrats are the party of "free stuff".

I can't prove it, but I would bet that you are more likely to have an intelligent political debate with the average off the street Republican more than you would with the average off the street democrat.
Plain stupidity, the lack of knowledge over the principles of which our nation was founded, and being oblivious of the issues is why we have democrats in office.
Only democrat voters would vote for the likes of Al Franken, Marion Berry...or vote for politicians that think islands float and that there exists today two Vietnams. And voted twice for a socialistic anti American president that vowed he would "fundamentally transform" America.

Right. Those same flat earth Republicans who are still trying to sell Intelligent Design, and Obama birth certificate conspiracies? Mmm kay. Let's here from another one of ya....

At times you post stuff and I thinks to meself, "he's not that stupid, he makes a good point here."

Then you go and absolutely redeem yourself by posting something this moronic.

Oooh. Hostile. Yeah I must be off my rocker on this one. The three of you have convinced me. Nobody just votes blindly down the Republican party line. That's just nonsense. I'm sorry I wasted y'alls time with this...

I vote straight party line all the time.

Oops! I guess it's NOT just my cockamamie theory after all.

This bullshit cheerleading for your "team" obliterates any rational discussion of the issues. You're so busy slamming the "other side" that you can't make up your own damn minds on any given issue without checking the party platform first. And when someone points out how silly that is, you start calling names rather than actually thinking about why you've come to the conclusions you're so attached to.

A thinker has to constantly challenge himself. What you believe is far less important than why you believe it. Until you get out of the "blame the other team" mentality, and start analyzing the issues individually, your thinking will always be stunted, your ideas crippled. The democrat/republican dichotomy is manufactured by people who want to crush dissent. They turn you against your fellow Americans and get you fighting petty battles over petty issues so that no meaningful debate or reform can take place.

Unplug from the Matrix fellas.

 

[oneforthebus]

Oops! I guess it's NOT just my cockamamie theory after all.

This bullshit cheerleading for your "team" obliterates any rational discussion of the issues. You're so busy slamming the "other side" that you can't make up your own damn minds on any given issue without checking the party platform first. And when someone points out how silly that is, you start calling names rather than actually thinking about why you've come to the conclusions you're so attached to.

A thinker has to constantly challenge himself. What you believe is far less important than why you believe it. Until you get out of the "blame the other team" mentality, and start analyzing the issues individually, your thinking will always be stunted, your ideas crippled. The democrat/republican dichotomy is manufactured by people who want to crush dissent. They turn you against your fellow Americans and get you fighting petty battles over petty issues so that no meaningful debate or reform can take place.

Unplug from the Matrix fellas.

You are just making stuff up now.

I am not cheerleading for anyone, nor have I called anyone on the other side any names. I haven't known a candidate yet I can agree with on everything. I simply have never come across a Democratic candidate who I could support at all. In the local areas where I have lived, Dems run on issues like more funding for schools, more "investment" in things, more regulations on businesses and on things like banning gas drilling. Do I research the individual views of the Registrar of Wills before I vote for the one with the R by his name? Nope. Do I feel bad about that? Nope.

I also think it's foolish to support someone who has no chance at all of winning. I might as well vote for Mickey Mouse. In a close election, my vote for Mickey Mouse could very well help elect the guy in who wants to hike my property taxes again. No thanks. I'll go with the Republican who doesn't want to. He won't be a perfect candidate by any means, but he'll be better than the one I might help elect.

Of the candidates who have a shot at winning, Republicans tend to hew closer to my viewpoints on things. I'll take that over helping someone get in who is just wants to suck more of my money into the government black hole.

 

[oneforthebus]

We've had this discussion plenty in the past - the two-party system is just broken. Without serious campaign finance reform and term limits, it will continue to be a good-ol-boy network of paid political influence run by giant corporations and special interest groups, where voters' needs and desires simply don't matter, and neither the Democrats or Republicans are going to make the changes that are needed to eliminate the corruption. I also understand that a "one Libertarian at a time" approach will never work either, but I'll continue to vote my conscience, vote the issues, and not just vote for "anyone but that guy."

And I'll continue to work within the broken system to do the best I can for myself and my family. "Anyone but Obama" is an outcome I would have been thrilled with, frankly. I can't really think of any viable candidate who wouldn't have been better.

 

[SteelChip]

This bullshit cheerleading for your "team" obliterates any rational discussion of the issues.

I don't speak for all conservatives but the straight party ticket can be somewhat justified if you look at what the alternative is, if you don't vote "Republican". Personally, I am not a big fan of either the R or D's of the world and there are a lot of R's I would never vote for but voting D is not a option either. I usually disagree with DBS ....somewhat, in that I think a vote for the Libertarian usually hurts the R and helps the D but sooner or later we are going to be a viable Party and that will change.

Like they say about how it sucks to grow old but it beats the alternative, it sucks to vote Republican sometimes..but it damn sure beats the alternative.

View attachment 997..View attachment 998..View attachment 999

 

[JupiterBnG]

And I'll continue to work within the broken system to do the best I can for myself and my family. "Anyone but Obama" is an outcome I would have been thrilled with, frankly. I can't really think of any viable candidate who wouldn't have been better.

At the end of the day, I will have my integrity, rather than just quietly going down with the ship. You'll have just gone down with the ship. And bitched mightily about it the whole way when you could have done something.

 

[oneforthebus]

At the end of the day, I will have my integrity, rather than just quietly going down with the ship. You'll have just gone down with the ship. And bitched mightily about it the whole way when you could have done something.

Just because my strategy is different from yours doesn't mean I have no integrity. There is a lot I like about the Republican party. It's not perfect, but it's head and shoulders above the mess that is the Dems. I could say that you are the one bringing down the ship if your "integrity" helps big government Dems seize more and more of the country from the productive and hand it over to the non-productive. There is no getting it back once its gone. I'll try to slow the bleeding any way I can. Voting for people who will never get into office will accomplish exactly nothing. Voting for people who have a chance and at least some interest in slowing the growth of government is better than nothing.

There is nothing wrong with voting strategically to avoid a worse outcome, when an ideal one isn't possible.

 

[Steel Not A Player]

You are just making stuff up now.

No. I'm clearly not.

I am not cheerleading for anyone, nor have I called anyone on the other side any names.

Read my entire post for context. I was talking to them, not you. I merely used your post as an example of something they tried to claim does not exist.

 

[CharlesDavenport]

At the end of the day, I will have my integrity, rather than just quietly going down with the ship. You'll have just gone down with the ship. And bitched mightily about it the whole way when you could have done something.

All that integrity got us Clinton and Obama. Thanks.

 

[SteelChip]

I merely used your post as an example of something they tried to claim does not exist.

Shh...them Illuminati people are outside right now....hide quick.

 

[oneforthebus]

No. I'm clearly not.



Read my entire post for context. I was talking to them, not you. I merely used your post as an example of something they tried to claim does not exist.

People who vote straight Republican certainly exist. People who vote straight Republican are not necessarily uninformed sheep. That was my point.