Injury Update

[diver]

I’m not speaking to this particular injury
Past history clearly shows a correlation between backs having a higher probability of season ending injury after heavy workload

Again it’s not rocket science, just common sense that has been shown to be statistically a higher probability

Simple numbers

Don’t try to tell me my contention when you’re inaccurate about what my contention is

I have not misinterpreted your contention. I just used the Harris injury in camp as an example. The more accurate one would be the Ben injury. Should have Ben sat a few games a year, or gotten a few series off every game in the event that overuse to his arm may lead to injury? Because the argument could be made that it was overuse that caused the elbow to go. But would have you done anything with Ben to mitigate that possibility? Is it only running backs that get this consideration?

You are making the contention, it is up to you to prove that overuse caused a particular injury to a running back. The truth is it cannot be with any certainty. The reason there are running backs in the Hall of Fame is due to their long, consistent careers, with the exception of Gale Sayers and Terrell Davis. Those players got the stats they got due to their workloads. They didn't get hurt. They were special and lucky. I think luck still plays much more of a role in this then overwork.

 

[Fiji Mariner]

Again another misrepresentation of what I’ve said by you

I spoke specifically to amount of touches and the high level of use of RBs leading to injury on the following season as that is all I have seen study/statistical probability on.

Ben has nothing to do with that and I’ve made ZERO contention to QBs and arms as I’ve seen zero studies on that…so I had to stop reading as that is all
a whole other topic I’ve made zero assertions to as I’ve seen zero statistics on that scenario.

I have however seen several things on amount of touches of RBs and the correlation of long term injury the following season. So OBVIOUSLY the ONLY contention I’ve made is that Najee is indeed in a high risk of long term injury this year as compared to backs with low work load usage the prior season. It’s actually quite simple and the ONLY contention I’ve made.



Stop trying to put words in my mouth
I can’t be anymore clear

You can try to represent whatever you want but trying to put words in my mouth is just annoying AF, this **** is not rocket science

It’s soooooo freakin’ simple…one simple contention that’s all and Ben has nothing to do with it unless he was a highly used RB

For ***** sake

 

[Fiji Mariner]

Last thing I’ll say in this topic of the wheels falling off being a valid argument… there are always exceptions to anything

The world has its ultra fit healthy elite of the elite athletes
Your Emmitt Smith, Ladanian Tomlinson or Eric Dickerson and hopefully for our sake Najee falls into this category, only time will tell (that time being this season and the following 2)

The threshold for most NFL backs seems to be 370 carries leaving a serious injury or at a minimum production impact for the following season and usually up to 3 seasons after the high workload threshold hold of 370 with an even greater impact after 390. Was his Lisfranc a freak injury? Possibly, but statistics say likely not.

Najee sitting at 381 puts him squared up right in those crosshairs. While there are exceptions to the rule the vast majority see major injury or at a minimum a full yard less per carry the following season after high workload threshold of 370

It’s simple probabilities and the numbers/statistics tell the story.
It shouldn’t be a hard concept to grasp that on a collision sport the amount of collisions has a direct correlation with injury.

Don’t get mad at me cuz MT runs his back til the wheels fall off, it is just a product of his coaching style

I’d manage the carries more responsibly and try to give my beloved Steelers a chance at a playoff victory instead of limping into the playoffs with a tired, overused banged up back

Again only time will tell so this year should say a lot about whether Najee truly is that elite of elite or just another used up spent falling under the statistical probabilities RB.

And all the arguments in the world about Ben’s elbow have absolutely ZERO meaning in this topic-MY ONE AND ONLY CONTENTION is indeed just about RBs and running them till the wheels fall off

 

[diver]

I don't think I ever tried to put words in your mouth.

I think the studies or statistics are simply nonsense until they can prove, without a doubt, specific injuries of specific running backs that can be directly linked to overuse. It is conjecture. Also, if "hopefully Najee" ends up being. like Emmitt or Dickerson or Tomlinson implies that certainly some luck is involved. Which is what I contend. Injuries, or avoidance of them I feel is more about luck one way or another than overuse.

It simply feels to me like another avenue to rip the coach. Tomlin sucks at game planning. Tomlin sucks at adjustments. Tomlin sucks at challenges. And dammit, he runs the wheels off running backs! I have my issues with Tomlin, but playing his best players isn't one of them.

 

[Fiji Mariner]

A better way would be to ask “are you suggesting…?” Instead of telling me what my contention is and then being wrong about what I’ve asserted (thus putting words in my mouth)

Tomlin’s record speaks for itself, there are way too many ways to rip Tomlin without doing it under the guise of statistical probabilities of injury which are well documented.

His words …which is where the “run em till the wheels fall off” came from

lots of people quote the silly Tomlinisms all day long around here, now quit blinking or I’ll have to cut your eyelids off

 

[diver]

A better way would be to ask “are you suggesting…?” Instead of telling me what my contention is and then being wrong about what I’ve asserted (thus putting words in my mouth)

Tomlin’s record speaks for itself, there are way too many ways to rip Tomlin without doing it under the guise of statistical probabilities of injury which are well documented.

His words …which is where the “run em till the wheels fall off” came from

lots of people quote the silly Tomlinisms all day long around here, now quit blinking or I’ll have to cut your eyelids off

Aren't suggestions and contentions pretty much the same thing?

You are right about that with Tomlin. It has always been one of my points. Rip him on what we see. There is plenty of that. We don't need to get off in the weeds with statistical probabilities. Those things can be disputed too easily in my opinion. One of my favorites is "he makes no adjustments." How the hell do we know? And how can we be sure that adjustments or lack there of aren't really just a team playing better or worse, whatever the case may be. At the end of the day, I will never criticize a coach for wanting to play his best players as much as possible.

You use his words as truth that he will run them till the wheels fall off. Is he also really cutting off eyelids as well? No wonder Bush can't make tackles. His eyes are all dried out and he can't see right due to no eyelids. Do we pick and choose what is real and what is hyperbole as it pertains to his statements?

 

[Fiji Mariner]

I’ll sit back and root like hell for Najee to be the 4th coming of a back immune to workload, we won’t know for a year or two though.

Until then, keep them lug nuts on tight Naj

 

[madinsomniac]

The criticism of overusing a running back has nothing to do with Tomlinism. Its based in facts.
Read this article to the end… look at all the backs that had stellar workloads like Najeh had last year and the massive stat drop the next year…

Here's How a Heavy Workload Affects an NFL Running Back

In honor of DeMarco Murray, who carried the ball 392 times in 2014, here's a look at the effects of a heavy workload on NFL running backs.

www.sportscasting.com

Often backs never ever recover after a monster workload season… there are two suspected reasons for this…

the first is that the culminating amounts of hits over a 16 (17 now) game season without adequate time for ligaments and muscles to totally recover. Rbs size to impact play ratios are the worse in the league… ( they aren’t huge and tend to get hit head-on a lot more than wrs or Tes or any defender..ligaments and muscles don’t fully heal right and are in a weakened state, allowing long lasting damage to occur by seasons end that really shows up in the next season

The second theory is that rbs suffer more high impact “mini” concussion type hits … not really headshots but more like whiplash hits, than any other position, and by seasons end those hits are really doing substantial damage. therefore their reaction time is slowed quicker the next season and then they put themselves in worse position for injuries


I mean the correlation between high touches and a massive drop off the next year is not even in question

 

[diver]

The criticism of overusing a running back has nothing to do with Tomlinism. Its based in facts.
Read this article to the end… look at all the backs that had stellar workloads like Najeh had last year and the massive stat drop the next year…

Here's How a Heavy Workload Affects an NFL Running Back

In honor of DeMarco Murray, who carried the ball 392 times in 2014, here's a look at the effects of a heavy workload on NFL running backs.

www.sportscasting.com

Often backs never ever recover after a monster workload season… there are two suspected reasons for this…

the first is that the culminating amounts of hits over a 16 (17 now) game season without adequate time for ligaments and muscles to totally recover. Rbs size to impact play ratios are the worse in the league… ( they aren’t huge and tend to get hit head-on a lot more than wrs or Tes or any defender..ligaments and muscles don’t fully heal right and are in a weakened state, allowing long lasting damage to occur by seasons end that really shows up in the next season

The second theory is that rbs suffer more high impact “mini” concussion type hits … not really headshots but more like whiplash hits, than any other position, and by seasons end those hits are really doing substantial damage. therefore their reaction time is slowed quicker the next season and then they put themselves in worse position for injuries


I mean the correlation between high touches and a massive drop off the next year is not even in question

How do you explain Emmitt Smith, Barry Sanders, Curtis Martin, Walter Payton, etc? These guys routinely got around 400 touches per year. If it is such settled science, why didn't it happen to those guys? I contend it didn't happen because first, they were special and second because they were very lucky. But I think luck can happen in the reverse as well. I think it comes down to that more than workload.

Look, I have no problem with Najee getting breaks in the game. I just don't like the criticism of Tomlin, or any coach for that matter on this issue. You want to win, you are going to play your best guys as much as possible.

 

[madinsomniac]

How do you explain Emmitt Smith, Barry Sanders, Curtis Martin, Walter Payton, etc? These guys routinely got around 400 touches per year. If it is such settled science, why didn't it happen to those guys? I contend it didn't happen because first, they were special and second because they were very lucky. But I think luck can happen in the reverse as well. I think it comes down to that more than workload.

Look, I have no problem with Najee getting breaks in the game. I just don't like the criticism of Tomlin, or any coach for that matter on this issue. You want to win, you are going to play your best guys as much as possible.

Size and speed of nfl players dramatically increased since 2000. Did ypu ever watch those sports science specials? These guys now routinely are taking force hits equivalent to minor car crashes… a 200 lb player moving at 4.6 speed creates 1600 lbs of force… combine that with a player moving in the opposite direction full speed…

Because training has gotten so absurd players are extremely strong, fast and just weigh more than older players did… they just cant hold up to the long season like 1990’s backs could

 

[Drink IRON City]

A better way would be to ask “are you suggesting…?” Instead of telling me what my contention is and then being wrong about what I’ve asserted (thus putting words in my mouth)

Tomlin’s record speaks for itself, there are way too many ways to rip Tomlin without doing it under the guise of statistical probabilities of injury which are well documented.

His words …which is where the “run em till the wheels fall off” came from

lots of people quote the silly Tomlinisms all day long around here, now quit blinking or I’ll have to cut your eyelids off

PoPcorn

LeVeon Bell is another example of running him till his wheels fall off. He came up limp in that PO game against the cheatriots. It was his year work load and the prior game before Tomlin gave him extra carries to break a steelers playoff rushing record or something like that. He was tired and wore out.

I've also read those same stats vs injury on RB touches, I'm with you on that topic as well.


Salute the nation

 

[Steeltime]

Again another misrepresentation of what I’ve said by you

I spoke specifically to amount of touches and the high level of use of RBs leading to injury on the following season as that is all I have seen study/statistical probability on.

Ben has nothing to do with that and I’ve made ZERO contention to QBs and arms as I’ve seen zero studies on that…so I had to stop reading as that is all
a whole other topic I’ve made zero assertions to as I’ve seen zero statistics on that scenario.

I have however seen several things on amount of touches of RBs and the correlation of long term injury the following season. So OBVIOUSLY the ONLY contention I’ve made is that Najee is indeed in a high risk of long term injury this year as compared to backs with low work load usage the prior season. It’s actually quite simple and the ONLY contention I’ve made.



Stop trying to put words in my mouth
I can’t be anymore clear

You can try to represent whatever you want but trying to put words in my mouth is just annoying AF, this **** is not rocket science

It’s soooooo freakin’ simple…one simple contention that’s all and Ben has nothing to do with it unless he was a highly used RB

For ***** sake

So you're saying Roethlisberger was injured because he was overused at RB?

 

[diver]

Ok. But what are you going to do? You want your best players out there. It would be completely speculative, but what if they lose a game due to the fact that Najee is not out there? Maybe because in the interest of rest for example they have a lesser guy in there who misses a block on a blitz (Najee is good at picking that stuff up), gets the QB smeared and he fumbles. Imagine this board if something like that happened. "Tomlin sucks!!! Why wasn't Najee out there?!"

Again, if I'm the coach I'm putting out there my best guys, the guys I trust because of scenarios like that. I can't blame the coach or gripe about him "running wheels off."

Perhaps my problem isn't with the science. It is with how the science is used to make arguments. If the Steelers had won a few more Super Bowls over the last many years, I doubt if people would be bitching about Tomlin "running wheels off." And again, I have issues with Tomlin, too, but one is not playing his best players too much.

 

[Drink IRON City]

Ok. But what are you going to do? You want your best players out there. It would be completely speculative, but what if they lose a game due to the fact that Najee is not out there? Maybe because in the interest of rest for example they have a lesser guy in there who misses a block on a blitz (Najee is good at picking that stuff up), gets the QB smeared and he fumbles. Imagine this board if something like that happened. "Tomlin sucks!!! Why wasn't Najee out there?!"

Again, if I'm the coach I'm putting out there my best guys, the guys I trust because of scenarios like that. I can't blame the coach or gripe about him "running wheels off."

Perhaps my problem isn't with the science. It is with how the science is used to make arguments. If the Steelers had won a few more Super Bowls over the last many years, I doubt if people would be bitching about Tomlin "running wheels off." And again, I have issues with Tomlin, too, but one is not playing his best players too much.

ALL valid point diver !!

There are times in any game that the RB can be spelled but our coach doesn't seem to do that. Also our coach seems to leave our RB in way to long when the game is decided weather win or loss. Those are the times I think some are talking about. Even 10 snap rest makes a BIG difference and remember he can be put back in on a moments notice. NO, momentum changer is not thie time to spell and remember momentum changer(s) can happen in any instance weather in there or not.


Salute the nation

 

[diver]

ALL valid point diver !!

There are times in any game that the RB can be spelled but our coach doesn't seem to do that. Also our coach seems to leave our RB in way to long when the game is decided weather win or loss. Those are the times I think some are talking about. Even 10 snap rest makes a BIG difference and remember he can be put back in on a moments notice. NO, momentum changer is not thie time to spell and remember momentum changer(s) can happen in any instance weather in there or not.


Salute the nation

I agree with that for sure. And I also agree he should be spelled. But if he is, and something bad happens due to the fact that the guy that is in there isn't as good, I think it is completely disingenuous for me to ***** about the coach in that instance. But I guarandamnteeyou if that happens, all the sudden the stuff about playing Harris too much will all of the sudden be forgotten.

 

[BLITZ]

Man I think we need the season to begin

 

[diver]

Man I think we need the season to begin

Yes it is.

 

[Fiji Mariner]

The criticism of overusing a running back has nothing to do with Tomlinism. Its based in facts.
Read this article to the end… look at all the backs that had stellar workloads like Najeh had last year and the massive stat drop the next year…

Here's How a Heavy Workload Affects an NFL Running Back

In honor of DeMarco Murray, who carried the ball 392 times in 2014, here's a look at the effects of a heavy workload on NFL running backs.

www.sportscasting.com

Often backs never ever recover after a monster workload season… there are two suspected reasons for this…

the first is that the culminating amounts of hits over a 16 (17 now) game season without adequate time for ligaments and muscles to totally recover. Rbs size to impact play ratios are the worse in the league… ( they aren’t huge and tend to get hit head-on a lot more than wrs or Tes or any defender..ligaments and muscles don’t fully heal right and are in a weakened state, allowing long lasting damage to occur by seasons end that really shows up in the next season

The second theory is that rbs suffer more high impact “mini” concussion type hits … not really headshots but more like whiplash hits, than any other position, and by seasons end those hits are really doing substantial damage. therefore their reaction time is slowed quicker the next season and then they put themselves in worse position for injuries


I mean the correlation between high touches and a massive drop off the next year is not even in question

Been saying that for about 10 posts now
Preaching to the choir here

The tomlinisms tie in is that isn’t he the one quoted as saying “run em til the wheels fall off”? so indeed he philosophically realizes his overuse but is too damn stubborn to realize the error of his ways and is perfectly content on a seat that never warms to not learn from his previous mistakes.

 

[Confluence]

Been saying that for about 10 posts now
Preaching to the choir here

The tomlinisms tie in is that isn’t he the one quoted as saying “run em til the wheels fall off”? so indeed he philosophically realizes his overuse but is too damn stubborn to realize the error of his ways and is perfectly content on a seat that never warms to not learn from his previous mistakes.

Tomlin doesnt live in his fears.

Unless its a bust draft pick. Or 3rd and long.

 

[Fiji Mariner]

So you're saying Roethlisberger was injured because he was overused at RB?

Lmao
I pray for the sake of anyone inheriting your genes through reproduction that was sarcasm

 

[diver]

Been saying that for about 10 posts now
Preaching to the choir here

The tomlinisms tie in is that isn’t he the one quoted as saying “run em til the wheels fall off”? so indeed he philosophically realizes his overuse but is too damn stubborn to realize the error of his ways and is perfectly content on a seat that never warms to not learn from his previous mistakes.

There is just a disingenuousness here that bothers me. "Damn stubborn, error of ways, content on seat" that says this is about more than overuse of a running back. Again, it is just another avenue to rip the coach. If they had won the Super Bowl last year I don't think there would be anyone on here griping about Najee's usage. You know how I know this? Because in 2016 when the Steelers and Leveon Bell were running all over the Dolphins and the Chiefs in the playoffs, I heard nothing of this sort. Then he gets hurt early against the Patriots, and it's "Tomlin overuses his running backs." If he didn't get those 30 carries against the Chiefs, there is a good chance they never get in the AFCC. For the love.

 

[Litos]

Read on SteelerNation Twitter that Kazee's injury is minor, 6 weeks recovery time! Some good news were needed for sure, the guy is a player and fits many hats on the Steelers D scheme

 

[TDX27]

Sucks that Austin is going on IR. He said he was ready to play 2 weeks ago. This sounds like a team decision because he hadn't practiced. I guess we really won't get a chance to see him until next year even if he comes back in 6 weeks. They won't dress him.

 

[ZonaBurgh]

What's the title of this thread again?

 

[topseed]

Tomlin's been doing this **** for years, and it's not just with running backs. Remember this gem back in 2011? From NBCsports.com:

Ben Roethlisberger: I was the 49ers’ best player​

Posted by Michael David Smith on December 20, 2011, 7:39 AM

"After limping through a four-turnover game on Monday night, Ben Roethlisberger pointed the finger at himself as the reason the Steelers lost to the 49ers.

“I was probably the best 49er tonight,” Roethlisberger said, via Alex Marvez of FOXSports.com.

Roethlisberger played through a sprained ankle that had him in obvious pain and lacking mobility, and Steelers coach Mike Tomlin was questioned afterward about why an obviously injured player was on the field at all. But Tomlin insisted that putting Roethlisberger out there — and keeping him out there, even at the end of a one-sided loss — was the right call.

“He was healthy enough to play,” Tomlin said. We always like what Ben provides us, not only from his quality of play, but his leadership. This guy is a tremendous competitor. We appreciate his efforts, obviously we fell short tonight.”

But was Roethlisberger really healthy enough? Roethlisberger, who said he did not take a painkilling injection, acknowledged that he was playing at less than 100 percent."


The Steelers were down by three scores with 5+ minutes left in that game, and I couldn't believe that Tomlin trotted Ben back out there at that point. So, of course, Ben gets sacked and then throws a pick, and the Niners get the ball back with 3+ minutes left, up 21-3. Game over, right? Nope.

So their fearless leader MT starts using his remaining 2 timeouts as San Fran is running it up the middle and trying to mercifully end the game, but, despite trailing by 18 points and starting on his own 12 yard line with 2 minutes on the clock and no timeouts remaining, he sends Ben out there yet AGAIN. Ben, after hobbling around and getting whacked a few more times, then fumbles, and Mikey finally (in his infinite wisdom) decides to punt the ball back to the 49ers on 4th down with a minute left.

I've watched some ridiculousness from this head coach over the years, but that sequence took the ******* cake.