It’s all about perspective

[Badcat]

The core was there. Ben, two future defensive players of the year, hof defensive coordinator, yea, Tomlin owes his success to Cowher. Look what he's done without Cowher's core.

I get the core element of this, I do, but Tomlin/Colbert had to fill in some key pieces as well. Below are the players from the 2005 team and to the right I list who Tombert brought in to replace them. Particularly on defense, the pieces added were definite upgrades. You have to give the man SOME credit and not act like Tomlin inherited a team and did NOTHING.

Offense:
1. FB - Dan Kreider - Cary Davis
2. WR - Antwaan Randle El - Santonio Holms
3. LT - Marvel Smith - Max Starks
4. G - Alan Faneca - Chris Kemoeatu
5. C - Jeff Hartings - Justin Hartwig
6. G - Kendall Simmons - Darnell Stapleton
7 RT - Max Starks - Willie Colon

Defense:
1. DE - Kimo von Oelhoffen - Brett Keisel
2. OLB - Clark Haggans - LaMarr Woodely
3. OLB - Joey Porter - James Harrison
4. FS - Chris Hope - Ryan Clark

 

[jitter77]

I think this years team could win some w/o watt considering the depth we have. I could be remembering wrong, but i think the losses w/o watt were mostly due to having a very poor offense

 

[Stewey]

Tomlin had a Hall of fame QB in Big Ben

Who blew it.
"Cowhers players" lost Super Bowl XLV vs the Packers in part due to Ben missing a wide open Mike Wallace.

Other factors leading to the loss:
Turnovers, turnovers, turnovers. The Steelers turned the ball over three times. The Packers scored 21 points off of those takeaways.
Big Ben was inaccurate far too often. He had Mike Wallace wide open on a corner route and simply missed the throw.
Rashard Mendenhall fumbled the ball on the first play of the 4th quarter. The Steelers had the momentum and only trailed 21-17

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1045theteam.com

Ben also threw 4 interceptions vs the Stains in the 2020 WC playoffs.
Thanks a lot Ben, from a Steeler fan living in Cleveland.

FAST FACT:
Ben was the first Steeler QB since Mark Malone to throw 5 INT's in a game.

He ended every season with an egg on his face despite having the best trio of weapons in the league, statistically the best ever to take the same field. The Killer Bees.

Harbaugh wins atleast 1 superbowl if given 5+ years of that talent on offense. Alot of coaches would have.

Harbaugh has been the Steelers biggest rival forever with Flacco and a bunch of mid tier talent on offense. Ray Rice was one of the best but that was years ago.
Every year they are solid no matter who they put on the field, now they have the #1 rushing attack in the NFL with a chance to make history.

Harbaugh has done just as well as Tomlin with less talented players, Night and day less talented. Thats what great coaches do.

Except that Harbaugh can't beat Tomlin.

I disagree with the Ravens having "mid-tier talent.
Talk about a team of mid tier players see the Brady era Patriots.

 

[Stewey]

Ahead by a point in the fourth, momentum on our side driving deep into Denver territory, then this happens.
F*****g Tomlin!

 

[Stewey]

We lost to garrad, flacco, tebow, bortles, and Mayfield w/o a coach. We only lost to Brady once under Tomlin along with one loss each to allen, mahomes, and Manning.

That "loss" to Garrard.
With 1:59 left to go in the game and the Jags behind, the Jags go for it on 4th and 2.
Garrard runs for 32 yards ....due to a clearly obvious hold that was missed.

The NFL's head of officiating admitted that the crew working that game missed the holding call.
Can't blame Tomlin for that one.
In fact I don't blame Tomlin for any of them, especially the loss to Mayfield. Tomlin didn't throw 4 INT's.

 

[Drink IRON City]

That Ben could do down and he could pull off a Tomlinship with Duck and Co.

But can hardly win a game without Watt certainly says something

Is Watt that much more crucial to the team than Ben was??? The stats seem to support the argument although I’m not sure it’s true.

It is crazy tho

Keep in mind that Coach Tom Lin is more defensive coordinator and less OC. Ben at times seemed to take over the OC and QB job simultaneously.


Salute the nation

 

[Stryker]

I get the core element of this, I do, but Tomlin/Colbert had to fill in some key pieces as well. Below are the players from the 2005 team and to the right I list who Tombert brought in to replace them. Particularly on defense, the pieces added were definite upgrades. You have to give the man SOME credit and not act like Tomlin inherited a team and did NOTHING.

Offense:
1. FB - Dan Kreider - Cary Davis
2. WR - Antwaan Randle El - Santonio Holms
3. LT - Marvel Smith - Max Starks
4. G - Alan Faneca - Chris Kemoeatu
5. C - Jeff Hartings - Justin Hartwig
6. G - Kendall Simmons - Darnell Stapleton
7 RT - Max Starks - Willie Colon

Defense:
1. DE - Kimo von Oelhoffen - Brett Keisel
2. OLB - Clark Haggans - LaMarr Woodely
3. OLB - Joey Porter - James Harrison
4. FS - Chris Hope - Ryan Clark

Also it was a big move to release JP and go with Harrison who was unproven as a starter.

Same with Ike Taylor, who frustrated Cowher because he couldn't get production out of him. Tomlin did and made him a starter.

Don't get me wrong, there was great talent on that team that Tomlin inherited, but it comes down to, do you get the most out of those players?

Norv Turner had a SB roster with top O and D inherited from Marty Schots, since he 'couldn't win in the playoffs' which was Cowher's dig before 05'. Norv never hit a SB and missed the playoffs one year with the #1 D AND #1 O. It's not always the talent, it is what your coach can do with it, and Tomlin made it to 2 SBs which is no small feat.

 

[Stryker]

They never even get close to the Superbowl anymore.

I just don't think many people appreciate how much Tomlin has failed over the past decade plus as it relates to legitimately competing for championships.

The Steelers post season success, or lack thereof, during that time has been comparable to what we saw in the 1980s, which were considered dark times for the franchise.

This season is showing promise, but we'll see how it ends. They started 11-0 not long ago, only to completely collapse afterwards.

If something similar occurs again, I'm sure the excuses will be lined up.

You're right and it is frustrating. 16' was our last AFCC.

I lived through the 80s. It looked good with the aging 70s players till 84, then they were terrible until 89. Still it's tough to get to a SB let alone win it.

Yup the 11-0 start and 3 games in 10 days killed Ben's arm and our D line so we couldn't compete the rest of the year. Ben didn't have it and should have retired at his elbow surgery, just like Bradshaw should have done as well.

16 years between superbowls 79-95
26 years between SB wins 79-05
We win 3 years later and make another 2 years after that.
Now we're at 14 years since our last SB.

It's going to be tough to get through Mahomes, Allen, and or Jackson in the post season. Do we have to wait out Mahomes before we get a chance to get back? That's really up to him, and our ability to hopefully slow him down with our D. Allen IMHO is the scariest QB in the league right now. Jackson, even though we have his number, is a dangerous athlete that can score from anywhere on the field. If we make the SB with this team, we'd have earned it.

 

[Fiji Mariner]

Keep in mind that Coach Tom Lin is more defensive coordinator and less OC. Ben at times seemed to take over the OC and QB job simultaneously.


Salute the nation

When Ben was good he could truly be great
Loved watching his style, but he could be quite frustrating at times too cuz well…

Unfortunately Bad Ben reared his ugly inaccurate head at times too, sometimes in very crucial momemts

Obviously Tomlin should’ve told him “throw better”
Of course he didn’t
Stupid dumb Tomlin

The Ben drawing plays in the dirt and all the 4th quarter comebacks is how I’ll choose to remember him though cuz why dwell on the bad moments when there were so many good ones too.

 

[Stewey]

So the way I understand it...
Tomlin surrounded Ben with inferior talent, so it was Tomlins fault we never sniffed the SB. Ben is to be credited for Tomlins success and notoriety.
And when Tomlin did surrounded Ben with top tier talent with AB, Bell it was also Tomlins fault we underachieved.

 

[topseed]

In fact I don't blame Tomlin for any of them

So you absolve Tomlin of any blame for losing to an 8-8 Denver Broncos team led by Tim Tebow? When the Steelers were 12-4 and one year removed from playing in the Super Bowl?

Let me guess...it was Ben's fault.

 

[Stewey]

When Ben was good he could truly be great
Loved watching his style, but he could be quite frustrating at times too cuz well…

Unfortunately Bad Ben reared his ugly inaccurate head at times too, sometimes in very crucial momemts

Obviously Tomlin should’ve told him “throw better”
Of course he didn’t
Stupid dumb Tomlin

The Ben drawing plays in the dirt and all the 4th quarter comebacks is how I’ll choose to remember him though cuz why dwell on the bad moments when there were so many good ones too.

Ben was indeed a great QB, that is undeniable, yet at the same time I don't know of a QB regarded as being "elite" make so many boneheaded plays.

Ben played great in only one Super Bowl. The other two he sorta sucked.

 

[Stewey]

So you absolve Tomlin of any blame for losing to an 8-8 Denver Broncos team led by Tim Tebow? When the Steelers were 12-4 and one year removed from playing in the Super Bowl?

Let me guess...it was Ben's fault.

Why would you guess that? Just because I pointed out two cases in which Tomlin was not to blame?

 

[topseed]

Why would you guess that? Just because I pointed out two cases in which Tomlin was not to blame?

@jitter77 said: "We lost to garrad, flacco, tebow, bortles, and Mayfield w/o a coach."

In response to and quoting that statement, you said: "In fact I don't blame Tomlin for any of them, especially the loss to Mayfield. Tomlin didn't throw 4 INT's."

That's why.

 

[Badcat]

Why would you guess that? Just because I pointed out two cases in which Tomlin was not to blame?

It's binary around here Stewey, It's either ALL his fault or it's none of his fault. Get with the program!

 

[topseed]

It's binary around here Stewey, It's either ALL his fault or it's none of his fault. Get with the program!

There's some reason that the Steelers came out flat as a pancake in the Tebow playoff game, but that loss simply cannot be Coach T's fault. It must've been poor play from a future HoF QB, or an untimely fumble, or a holding penalty that wasn't called. Or his stupid defense allowing 447 yards to the 23rd ranked offense that year. Or something.

Tomlin rulz.

 

[Badcat]

There's some reason that the Steelers came out flat as a pancake in the Tebow playoff game, but that loss simply cannot be Coach T's fault. It must've been poor play from a future HoF QB, or an untimely fumble, or a holding penalty that wasn't called. Or his stupid defense allowing 447 yards to the 23rd ranked offense that year. Or something.

Tomlin rulz.

I'm just saying that it can be a combination of piss poor coaching decisions and poor execution on the part of the players as well.

 

[Drink IRON City]

So the way I understand it...
Tomlin surrounded Ben with inferior talent, so it was Tomlins fault we never sniffed the SB. Ben is to be credited for Tomlins success and notoriety.
And when Tomlin did surrounded Ben with top tier talent with AB, Bell it was also Tomlins fault we underachieved.

You're there.......................


Salute the nation

 

[paperclip]

that Tebow game is when Ike ran with Demarius Thomas instead of trying to tackle him

 

[Stewey]

There's some reason that the Steelers came out flat as a pancake in the Tebow playoff game, but that loss simply cannot be Coach T's fault. It must've been poor play from a future HoF QB, or an untimely fumble, or a holding penalty that wasn't called. Or his stupid defense allowing 447 yards to the 23rd ranked offense that year. Or something.

Tomlin rulz.

So its Tomlins fault that the players came out flat as a pancake. Oh boy.
I cant imagine that a coach accused of only being a cheerleader had forgotten to give his pre-game locker room pep talk.

You list the possible scenarios as to why we lose playoff games, but you can't list one example of how Tomlin lost to Denver.

 

[Stryker]

There's some reason that the Steelers came out flat as a pancake in the Tebow playoff game, but that loss simply cannot be Coach T's fault. It must've been poor play from a future HoF QB, or an untimely fumble, or a holding penalty that wasn't called. Or his stupid defense allowing 447 yards to the 23rd ranked offense that year. Or something.

Tomlin rulz.

This narrative has always been head-scratching to me.

I watched 12 Denver Broncos games that year because I had the D-TV package and Dawkins (the safety from PHL, who is my favorite player to never wear a Steelers uniform) was on that insane D for the Broncos that year. They were fun to watch, the D kept the game close all year, and Tebow found a way to win late all year long. It was very much like watching our D win games with Kenny Picket, except Tebow could throw more than one TD pass in a game. Broncos had one of the top Defenses that year, so Tebow didn't beat us by himself, he had a lot of help.

I don't even know if you remember watching the game, most fans just remember the result, but I remember losing Aaron Smith AND Casey Hampton by midway through the 2nd QTR. There went our ability to get to Tebow, and the Broncos did a good job of shutting down our pass rush. They made the play when it mattered in OT and we lost.

I'm sure Tomlin would agree with you and take the blame for any loss, because that is what coaches do. I also remember that we didn't win the division, it was a wildcard game, and we weren't getting past anyone without Big Snack and ASmith in the next round of the playoffs. This isn't an OH what could have been scenario, we would have lost to the Pats.

To me a more bitter loss vs the Broncos was losing to a terrible Peyton Manning as he picks himself back off the ground after laying there for 3 seconds to throw a bomb to win it for the Broncos. That team could have won a SB.

 

[Stewey]

@jitter77 said: "We lost to garrad, flacco, tebow, bortles, and Mayfield w/o a coach."

In response to and quoting that statement, you said: "In fact I don't blame Tomlin for any of them, especially the loss to Mayfield. Tomlin didn't throw 4 INT's."

That's why.

I don't blame Tomlin solely on any of them was what I failed to get across.
Many of us blame Tomlin solely because he's the head coach. Easy to do.

I blame the players more because I can observe them. Ben throws 4 INT's, not Tomlin.
I, nor anyone else knows what Tomlin does or doesn't do behind the scenes during his day-to-day responsibilities as HC.

 

[steelcan58]

That Ben could do down and he could pull off a Tomlinship with Duck and Co.

But can hardly win a game without Watt certainly says something

Is Watt that much more crucial to the team than Ben was??? The stats seem to support the argument although I’m not sure it’s true.

It is crazy tho

I'm going to say what Watt does on defense is more unique than what Ben did on offense on a regular basis during the game. If you needed a late comeback Ben was the guy you wanted at QB. But TJ affects every single play either directly making the play or by the extra attention he commands that frees up other players.

 

[Confluence]

There's some reason that the Steelers came out flat as a pancake in the Tebow playoff game, but that loss simply cannot be Coach T's fault. It must've been poor play from a future HoF QB, or an untimely fumble, or a holding penalty that wasn't called. Or his stupid defense allowing 447 yards to the 23rd ranked offense that year. Or something.

Tomlin rulz.

it was Ike Taylor having the worst CB statistical game in playoff history and the Steeler D making no adjustments for Demaryius Thomas waltzed into the endzone.

 

[Fiji Mariner]

I'm going to say what Watt does on defense is more unique than what Ben did on offense on a regular basis during the game. If you needed a late comeback Ben was the guy you wanted at QB. But TJ affects every single play either directly making the play or by the extra attention he commands that frees up other players.

The more I watch Watt the more I realize he may actually be the GOAT, and we’ve had some
of the absolute best.

Dude has an endless bag of game impacting plays and is one of the very few defensive players that can actually just take a game over and will his team to victory.

He’s at the level of greatness a simple
Mugging doesn’t even usually draw a penalty as he is truly unstoppable without the cheating.

It’s great he’s on the good guys cuz he is worth the price of admission and the team without him seems to know they aren’t half the team they are with him and the record bears it out.

He is truly one of a kind.