• Please be aware we've switched the forums to their own URL. (again) You'll find the new website address to be www.steelernationforum.com Thanks
  • Please clear your private messages. Your inbox is close to being full.

One out of 10, down

I think you're perspective is slanted. As Ark said ANY TIME Timmons makes a good play and it is commented upon you rush as fast as possible to start with the disparaging **** bringing up every negative as if you are somehow threatened by any perceived success he may be having. It all seems very silly and unnecessary. It's like you guys make calls to each other to get out the comments in mass as soon as possible.

You sound awfully threatened by Timmons criticism.

I can assure you, I don't do it "ANY TIME Timmons makes a good play." In fact, I'd say Timmons gets called out for his fuckups less often than Ben and Troy, and they're HOFers. As I said, the Godlike status Timmons has on here is bizarre.
 
Last edited:
You sound awfully threatened by Timmons criticism.

I can assure you, I don't do it "ANY TIME Timmons makes a good play." In fact, I'd say Timmons gets called out for his fuckups less often than Ben and Troy, and they're HOFers. As I said, the Godlike status Timmons has on here is bizarre.

I'm threatened by irrational bashing in the face of reality. See that's what I mean by your view being slanted. God like status. Timmons is without a doubt the most unjustly hated on player by far that I've ever seen in 15 years of coming here. If a guy sucks and gets hated on that's one thing. If a guy is a pretty damn good player or even "Solid" as you say and gets bashed incessantly by the same characters, it's just crazy. He's not a God and certainly not a perfect player, but the bashing is absurd. Know when I started rooting for him? The minute I saw the stupid reactions on draft day here and in the following weeks. It was ridiculous. The only thing that adds up with it still is, "Oh ****, I ripped his *** and the Steelers ***** on draft day and I am gonna look like a real dumb *** if I admit he was a good pick now."
 
Last edited:
Seems like semantics for saying exactly that. Ok so you won't say he is a bust because he was supposed to be an OLB but it was a bad pick because he was supposed to be an OLB. How is that any different?

It was one of many other issues that you conveniently leave out. The other reasons were that he was a one year starter at FL. State. He was also projected to be an OLB in a 4-3. See that's just it. You guy jump on ONE thing out of several issues and claim that is the only one. Just like with Jones. How many time have people cried "You hated him because of his 40 time". Which is bullshit. He's almost 25, had health issues, had no PR moves at Georgia, and had a horrible pro-day. But you guys just pick out the ONE thing and set it up as if that was all that was talked about.
 
Timmons red flags during draft day weren't a quarter of Jarvis', just saying
 
Timmons red flags during draft day weren't a quarter of Jarvis', just saying

Probably not however the same method is used to criticize those that dare to question any draft pick. Pick out one of many issues then pretend that is the only issue. Then blast away. Same thing happened in the Archer thread. They would use the "They only hate him because he is small" ****. They totally disregard any other argument and focus just on that one. They set up their strawman and fire away. They totally ignore the other issues because they realize that taken in totality the pick was a reach for the Steelers. But they can't admit that. So they turn to their favor technique.
 
there will always be posters that can't stand those who tend to be more harsh on the team's decisions. I think everyone is entitled to an opinion even if I don't agree, I'll try to share my point of view and try to convince him but I won't fight forever if the other person won't agree with me then.

For example take Timmons, I find him to be pretty good, just a tier before the top ILBs on the league. Still his salary is a bit high but I won't demand Colbert to be fired for securing talent on the roster. What some people forget is how young he was drafted, but the talent was there, it just needed to be polished, it just turned out he was a better ILB than OLB, but he still was a good pick
 
Nobody ever made the case that Timmons was a bust based on him being moved inside. That's a huge strawman. The issue was that of value for a #15 overall draft pick. Very few people ever called him a bust at all. I sure as hell didn't. My, and many other people's, issue was that he was drafted to be the ROLB in a 3-4 which is a prime position. But it was hardly anywhere near the main issue. ILBs in a 3-4 aren't near as valuable. This was before the recent attempt to draft smaller faster ILBs like Shazier and Spence. They had guys like Larry Foote who did a decent job. Unless you are getting a stud ILB like Willis then I would rather have had a LT like Staley. That has always been the issue not the "Timmons is a bust because he was drafted to play OLB but they had to move him inside" non-sense. Nobody ever said that.

did you not just say just THAT in a circular argument?

My, and many other people's, issue was that he was drafted to be the ROLB in a 3-4 which is a prime position
 
and we weren't discussing Jones or Archer. We're just discussing Timmons.

The same guy you just said

My, and many other people's, issue was that he was drafted to be the ROLB in a 3-4 which is a prime position

but moved inside.

I would believe that to be due to the rise of Deebo to the OLB position and the drafting of Woodley. As such, Timmons served better inside than he did outside in comparison to those two. I'd think it would show the coaching staff is perfectly capable of "admitting a mistake" and moving a guy inside instead of forcing him into an OLB position since that is where he was projected to play when coming out of college.

regardless, he's a bust.
 
and we weren't discussing Jones or Archer. We're just discussing Timmons.

The same guy you just said

My, and many other people's, issue was that he was drafted to be the ROLB in a 3-4 which is a prime position

but moved inside.

I would believe that to be due to the rise of Deebo to the OLB position and the drafting of Woodley. As such, Timmons served better inside than he did outside in comparison to those two. I'd think it would show the coaching staff is perfectly capable of "admitting a mistake" and moving a guy inside instead of forcing him into an OLB position since that is where he was projected to play when coming out of college.

regardless, he's a bust.

Seriously? You flat out said that people called him a bust because he was moved inside. Which is wrong. First off nobody of note every called him a bust. Another straw man. Secondly, those that questioned his high draft status did so because of several reasons one of which is because of value of an ILB over an OLB in a 3-4. But nobody every said what you said they said. Nobody ever said "he's a bust because they moved him to ILB". But you and others keep saying that even though it is not true.

I have NO issue with moving him inside. I even said they'd have to move him inside the day they drafted him. He was never going to be an OLB in a 3-4. BUT I would rather take a stud LT than an ILB in a 3-4. The value just wasn't there.
 
I'm threatened by irrational bashing in the face of reality. See that's what I mean by your view being slanted. God like status. Timmons is without a doubt the most unjustly hated on player by far that I've ever seen in 15 years of coming here. If a guy sucks and gets hated on that's one thing. If a guy is a pretty damn god player or even "Solid" as you say and gets bashed incessantly by the same characters, it's just crazy. He's not a God and certainly not a perfect player, but the bashing is absurd. Know when I rooting for him? The minute I saw the stupid reactions on draft day here and in the following weeks. It was ridiculous. The only thing that adds up with it still is, "Oh ****, I ripped his *** and the Steelers ***** on draft day and I am gonna look like a real dumb *** if I admit he was a good pick now."

Unjustly hated? I just called him solid, which I have many, many times. So have Tape and Vader, the other two guys lumped into the "Y U H8 Timmons?" crap. I'm not sure exactly how much of his **** needs to be in our throats before it's good enough for this board. If you want me to pretend he doesn't wander out of position frequently, and that he isn't mowed down by RBs too often to be a GREAT ILB, then keep waiting. Reality dictates that he has those two weaknesses, so I'm gonna go with that.

Keep pounding the "you like when Steelers you didn't want fail, and you never admit you were wrong" drum. I've admitted to many misevaluations and flat-out wrong stances. I hated Pouncey and loved Jarvis when we drafted the guys. That accusation is the only thing some of you are able to blurt out when someone criticizes a Steeler. You guys just can't handle when that happens.
 
Unjustly hated? I just called him solid, which I have many, many times. So have Tape and Vader, the other two guys lumped into the "Y U H8 Timmons?" crap. I'm not sure exactly how much of his **** needs to be in our throats before it's good enough for this board. If you want me to pretend he doesn't wander out of position frequently, and that he isn't mowed down by RBs too often to be a GREAT ILB, then keep waiting. Reality dictates that he has those two weaknesses, so I'm gonna go with that.

Keep pounding the "you like when Steelers you didn't want fail, and you never admit you were wrong" drum. I've admitted to many misevaluations and flat-out wrong stances. I hated Pouncey and loved Jarvis when we drafted the guys. That accusation is the only thing some of you are able to blurt out when someone criticizes a Steeler. You guys just can't handle when that happens.

As I said twice already, your perspective is so slanted on the issue that you really wan people to believe that you have been taking this stance the whole time that he is a "Solid" player. You didn't and haven't. I'll help you with your own opinion since you can't seem to remember. He was a bad pick and a player with so many holes in his game that he was a liability on the field rather than a benefit. That is what you have been arguing for the past several years and now want to somehow pretend you didn't . Your take that he is "Solid" i a recent thing and it's obvious to everyone who has been paying attention for the past several years. You have always jumped at every single chance you have to run him down incessantly. You are in damage control mode now because he has developed into a very "solid" player and the even most hardcore of the bunch (you) has had to soften their stance because it looks ridiculous now since he has become the arguably.the best player on the defense. .
 
This.. is hard to even respond to. Wowzer. Never wavered from calling Timmons solid, but flawed and overpaid. Not once.

"Damage control" is one of the funniest things I've read on here in quite some time.
 
ILB is such a non-important position that we have now spent two first round draft picks on them. I guess the tandem of Vince Williams and Terrence Garvin would have been just fine.
 
ILB is such a non-important position that we have now spent two first round draft picks on them. I guess the tandem of Vince Williams and Terrence Garvin would have been just fine.

So what? All positions on the field are important to a degree. I'm just glad that when Foote went down last year that they valued the position enough to get a good experienced backup or a high pick instead of a 6th rounder... oh wait... yup they value the hell out of ILB. I guess it just took them this year to start valuing them?
 
ILB is such a non-important position that we have now spent two first round draft picks on them. I guess the tandem of Vince Williams and Terrence Garvin would have been just fine.

Like Vader said, all positions have value. But the LESS valuable ones should probably be held off on unless you're talking about an undeniably impactful talent - Willis and maybe Shazier come to mind. I don't think Timmons fits that bill.

I wouldn't take an OG early unless he has DeCastro's upside, or a RB early unless he has AP's upside, etc.
 
Like Vader said, all positions have value. But the LESS valuable ones should probably be held off on unless you're talking about an undeniably impactful talent - Willis and maybe Shazier come to mind. I don't think Timmons fits that bill.

I wouldn't take an OG early unless he has DeCastro's upside, or a RB early unless he has AP's upside, etc.

In today's NFL I'm not sure I'd take any RB that high. He would have to be a flat out stud that could both catch and run.
 
So what? All positions on the field are important to a degree. I'm just glad that when Foote went down last year that they valued the position enough to get a good experienced backup or a high pick instead of a 6th rounder... oh wait... yup they value the hell out of ILB. I guess it just took them this year to start valuing them?

Like Vader said, all positions have value. But the LESS valuable ones should probably be held off on unless you're talking about an undeniably impactful talent - Willis and maybe Shazier come to mind. I don't think Timmons fits that bill.

I wouldn't take an OG early unless he has DeCastro's upside, or a RB early unless he has AP's upside, etc.

so you'd WANT them to take a pick with a high upside early, but are pissed when they do?
for the record, Joe Staley quite possibly could have turned out to be nothing more than Mike Adams. At the draft, no one knew how good Staley would be. How good he could be, yes, but not how good he would be. Same thing with Timmons. I'd gander that the coaching staff saw a dominant LB in their assessment. Even when Tomlin fell in love with him. I wished they'd have not stated so publicly their infatuation (for the record, I wanted Willis to fall to us) to open up more venues for trade.

As it is, both of you are doing nothing but second guessing the pick based on flawed logic and then turning around and saying you'd do the same.

Maybe the coaching staff saw Lawrence Taylor in Timmons? Maybe they saw a guy who could cover TEs and RBs? Maybe they saw a guy who could control the middle of the field if need be and rush the QB. Yet, when Timmons was picked, then Woodley thereafter and Deebo took the other OLB spot, we were in a bind with Timmons. Due to his flexibility, he allowed us to move him inside. It's not like Woodley could have moved inside is it? Or would it have been better to NOT have Timmons in that draft, and then been in more of a bind with Foote going to Detroit and forcing a rookie to learn the D on the fly (at this point, I should note that both of you command that rookie defensive starters produce immediately, regardless of their previous college positions). It turns out that bringing in Timmons to learn under Foote for a season then playing him the next was the right call...no matter how much you hated the pick.

As for Staley, we had Max Starks at LT.
Starks was 26. Why draft someone to come in at LT at that point? That doesn't make any sense.

Players selected in the first after Timmons included all of Justin Harrell, Jarvis Moss, Leon Hall, Michael Griffin, Aaron Ross, Reggie Nelson, Brady Quinn, Dwayne Bowe, Brandon Meriweather, Jon Beason, Anthony Spencer, Robert Meachem, Joe Staley, Ben Grubbs, Craig Davis, Greg Olsen, Anthony Gonzalez.

Second round guys taken include Alan Branch, Paul Posluszny, Arron Sears, Kevin Kolb, Eric Weddle, Zach Miller, Justin Blalock, John Beck, Chris Houston, Tony Ugoh, Drew Stanton, Sidney Rice and Dwayne Jarrett.

WHICH of those lumps of **** would you rather have? The only ones worth discussing would be Grubbs (we were starting Stapleton at that point), Posluszny (then we'd still be in the same argument) and possibly Sidney Rice (who was not projected as a first rounder).

Like I said previously, we are picking talent from the depleted talent pool.

Solid is not the same as "above average" no matter which way you want to twist and spin it. It's called splitting hairs, especially when you turn right around and state that the guy is always out of position, can't cover a TE and gets stone-walled by RBs or is like a kite on defense.
 
Position of need and best player available, is a hard line to balance. I think all teams have a tendency to reach a little, as our steelers have reached both present and past. Our scouting or coach or GM has been getting very low marks, as a group or individuals, and some how need to get that back up. We had what appears to be a pretty decent draft this year, only time will confirm / deny that. If we can string together a few more of them, we be back on top. Simple math.


Salute the nation
 
As it is, both of you are doing nothing but second guessing the pick based on flawed logic and then turning around and saying you'd do the same.

No I'm not. I would only have taken an ILB there if he was a phenomenal athlete and/or a can't-miss contributor. I don't think Timmons was either of those things.

Maybe the coaching staff saw Lawrence Taylor in Timmons?

Then I would say they made a gross misevaluation, and even the most ardent Timmons lover would have to agree with me there. Hey, they saw a lot in Jarvis too. And Cowher saw a lot in Jamain Stephens.

As for Staley, we had Max Starks at LT.
Starks was 26. Why draft someone to come in at LT at that point? That doesn't make any sense.

Yes, Starks, the Larry Foote of our o-line. Considering how great our o-line turned out, we certainly made the right call there.

Players selected in the first after Timmons included all of Justin Harrell, Jarvis Moss, Leon Hall, Michael Griffin, Aaron Ross, Reggie Nelson, Brady Quinn, Dwayne Bowe, Brandon Meriweather, Jon Beason, Anthony Spencer, Robert Meachem, Joe Staley, Ben Grubbs, Craig Davis, Greg Olsen, Anthony Gonzalez.

Second round guys taken include Alan Branch, Paul Posluszny, Arron Sears, Kevin Kolb, Eric Weddle, Zach Miller, Justin Blalock, John Beck, Chris Houston, Tony Ugoh, Drew Stanton, Sidney Rice and Dwayne Jarrett.

WHICH of those lumps of **** would you rather have? The only ones worth discussing would be Grubbs (we were starting Stapleton at that point), Posluszny (then we'd still be in the same argument) and possibly Sidney Rice (who was not projected as a first rounder).

Like I said previously, we are picking talent from the depleted talent pool.

Staley, the three-time All-Pro widely regarded as a top-tier LT, is a lump of ****? Or Weddle, the four-time All-Pro? Beason, who was All-Pro twice before repeatedly shredding his knee? Leon Hall, who was an All-Pro before suffering two Achilles tears? Griffin, an All-Pro himself and two-time Pro Bowler? Bowe, who made an All-Pro team and has nearly 500 catches? Miller, who has been to a Pro Bowl and has 322 catches? Anthony Spencer? Greg Olsen? Whu?

You have a bizarre definition of "lump of ****." All of those players have been comparable talents to Timmons, and many have surpassed him.

Solid is not the same as "above average" no matter which way you want to twist and spin it. It's called splitting hairs, especially when you turn right around and state that the guy is always out of position, can't cover a TE and gets stone-walled by RBs or is like a kite on defense.

Have you considered yet that "solid" is a very subjective term, and that my "solid" may not be the same as your "solid"?
 
The only reason Foote left for Detroit was because they moved Timmons inside. If you don't draft Timmons then Foote stays. You seriously don't remember the entire Foote/ Timmons issue? Also it wasn't his flexibility that moved him inside. It was because of they had no other options. Harrison nailed down ROLB and Timmons couldn't play outside. Which was what most football people knew when he was drafted. Hell most on this board knew he couldn't play outside. He was a 4-3 LB not a 3-4 OLB.

Also I wanted Staley before the draft. You obviously don't even know who the LT was in 2007 because it wasn't Starks. It was Marvel Smith. Starks doesn't take over until Smith gets hurt in 2008. Then the Steelers have to tag Starks. But Tomlin still keeps him on the Bench while playing Scott. So yea, it would have been nice to let Starks walk and have a dominant LT for a decade.
 
My bad for including Staley as a lump of ****, I thought I successfully removed him from that due to the sub-argument involving Starks. Please note, I did NOT mean to include list Staley in that list, so please unbunch.

and, without saying Staley, who in that list would you have taken?

Is Timmons that awful of an albatross on this defense?

Foote went back to Detroit because the Steelers were happy with the contribution they were/are getting with Timmons. The defense was set to become quicker, IMO, with Foote leaving and Farrior's eventual retirement. We drafted Spence for a reason, remember? Recall who it was putting pressure on Warner on that INT by Deebo in the Super Bowl, please. A change in defensive philosophy was being undertaken with quicker LBs. That much is certain. Spence's knee blowing out curtailed that.

For the record, I'm absolutely NOT saying that Timmons is a Lawrence Taylor or a Mike Singletary.
But, BOTH of you are pretty much stating that the guy is marginally better than Kion Wilson, and both of you are too stubborn to see that. Throw out all the adjectives you want, but in the end when you bash a guy non-stop repeatedly, you're stating that the guy is pretty ******.

and Eric Weddle? We had Ryan Clark at FS. He came over after the glorious Anthony Smith fiasco (one of Cowher's guys, remember). You're saying you'd have taken THEN, not NOW, but back in 2007, you would have taken Eric Weddle at 15, when he was selected with the 5th pick in the 2nd round???

And, as has been stated on this board repetitively, the Pro Bowl at this juncture is nothing but a popularity contest. See: Smith, Aaron.

Timmons will not get the same accolades due to the position he plays. If he played elsewhere, he would and both of you would be assaulting Tomlin for not having drafted him.

And since Tomlin and the Steelers FO must - absolutely must - see the future in regards to the health of players, please tell the class where Hall is, where Griffin is, where Spencer is. Please.

While Bowe has almost 500 catches, let's not kid ourselves. six years, 472 catches. never topped 90. not once. He's topped or equaled 70 catches twice and the same with the 80-catch threshold. Whereas most recently, including last year, he's not topped 60. Please, use a frame of reference when throwing Bowe's name out there, as we already had a plethora of WRs at that time and since.

and do not muddy the waters with Miller and Olsen. We had Heath at that point in time.

Timmons is ours, for good or bad. Mostly good.
 
My bad for including Staley as a lump of ****, I thought I successfully removed him from that due to the sub-argument involving Starks. Please note, I did NOT mean to include list Staley in that list, so please unbunch.

and, without saying Staley, who in that list would you have taken?

Is Timmons that awful of an albatross on this defense?

Foote went back to Detroit because the Steelers were happy with the contribution they were/are getting with Timmons. The defense was set to become quicker, IMO, with Foote leaving and Farrior's eventual retirement. We drafted Spence for a reason, remember? Recall who it was putting pressure on Warner on that INT by Deebo in the Super Bowl, please. A change in defensive philosophy was being undertaken with quicker LBs. That much is certain. Spence's knee blowing out curtailed that.

For the record, I'm absolutely NOT saying that Timmons is a Lawrence Taylor or a Mike Singletary.
But, BOTH of you are pretty much stating that the guy is marginally better than Kion Wilson, and both of you are too stubborn to see that. Throw out all the adjectives you want, but in the end when you bash a guy non-stop repeatedly, you're stating that the guy is pretty ******.

and Eric Weddle? We had Ryan Clark at FS. He came over after the glorious Anthony Smith fiasco (one of Cowher's guys, remember). You're saying you'd have taken THEN, not NOW, but back in 2007, you would have taken Eric Weddle at 15, when he was selected with the 5th pick in the 2nd round???

And, as has been stated on this board repetitively, the Pro Bowl at this juncture is nothing but a popularity contest. See: Smith, Aaron.

Timmons will not get the same accolades due to the position he plays. If he played elsewhere, he would and both of you would be assaulting Tomlin for not having drafted him.

And since Tomlin and the Steelers FO must - absolutely must - see the future in regards to the health of players, please tell the class where Hall is, where Griffin is, where Spencer is. Please.

While Bowe has almost 500 catches, let's not kid ourselves. six years, 472 catches. never topped 90. not once. He's topped or equaled 70 catches twice and the same with the 80-catch threshold. Whereas most recently, including last year, he's not topped 60. Please, use a frame of reference when throwing Bowe's name out there, as we already had a plethora of WRs at that time and since.

and do not muddy the waters with Miller and Olsen. We had Heath at that point in time.

Timmons is ours, for good or bad. Mostly good.

I'm not saying I would have taken many of the guys listed over Timmons. I was countering your claim that there was NO ONE, save for maybe one or two possible guys, that was a worthwhile player, and that guys like Eric Weddle and Dwayne Bowe and Leon Hall and Greg Olsen are "lumps of ****." And the fact that you're using Achilles and ACL tears as evidence that Leon Hall and Jon Beason were ****** player is absurd. Beason was arguably a much better ILB than Timmons before his repeated ACL tears, and Hall was a world-class, All-Pro CB before his Achilles tear.

There are only a few guys I would have taken over Timmons. I don't stay up nights wishing we'd drafted someone else; I'm just bothered by the fact that Timmons has never ascended beyond "solid" despite our investment of an early pick AND a massive contract.

As for Bowe.. no, he's not a world-beater, but let's look at the QBs have thrown to him throughout his career. And I'm not sure why 90 catches is the magical threshold here.
 
and I'll stand by my assessment that if we had taken Eric Weddle, Leon Hall or even Greg Olsen INSTEAD of Timmons, you and the other Timmons haters would be whining that we should have taken Timmons.
 
And you go right ahead; I couldn't care less. But you do know that I praise most of our draft picks, right? I don't get where that assumption of yours comes from.

LOL @ the idea of pining over Lawrence "Taylor" Timmons
 
You may praise them when they are made, yes
but once the **** Train starts rolling and people make different opinions, you hedge your bets then go full on.

and LOL @ the idea of you NOT pining over __________ player who was available when we picked _________.
 
Top