One out of 10, down

[Idioteque]

Cowher didn't draft any better than any other team in the mid-to-late rounds. A few gems, mostly nobodies, which is the league standard. And the core he built on the back half of his career, I'd put up against any core in the league at the time.

Ben
Parker
Hines
Holmes
ARE
Heath
Faneca
Marvel
Starks
Aaron
Hampton
Keisel
Harrison
Porter
Haggans
Ike
Deshea
Troy
Hope

And before that nut-busting group, he assembled some nice talent in the '90s, one that I'd put up against Tomlin's hand-picked core

Kordell
Bruener
Searcy
Faneca
Steed
Henry
Gildon
Kirkland
Chad Brown
Perry

Our top FA/trade pickups under Cowher - Bettis, Farrior, Hartings, Kimo, Clark

 

[Franco]

Another huge advantage Tomlin has over Cowher is the Steelers were not able to be competitive financially in the 90`s as Three Rivers could not generate the money and most free agents left immediately after their rookie contracts were up, Chad Brown, Searcy, etc. Hell we couldn`t even keep O`Donnell. If Ben had been drafted in 92 we couldn` t afforded to keep him. Imagine Tomlin without a franchise QB or trying to replace one,LMFAO.

Tomlin has also managed to **** up drafting while continuously picking earlier than Cowher due to his missing the playoffs 43% of the time. He is missing on 1st,2nd,3rd and 4th rounders while picking earlier in each round due to his poor coaching.

 

[Drink IRON City]

Quick sand, Tomlin is causing quick sand.



Salute the nation

 

[Superman]

2001 - Hampton
2003 - Polamalu
2004 - Big Ben
2005 - Heath
2006 - Santonio

Let's compare that to Tomlin's first-round picks. One star player - Pouncey, who is very debatable. And beyond the first round.. Cowher built two cores that contended for Super Bowls. Wake me up when Tomlin's attempts at a core drive us to a Bowl, or even beyond 8-8.

Is your contention that our drafting quality hasn't dipped drastically since 2007 or so?

so now you're changing the dynamics of the argument. You now wish to state "first round selections" instead of the original statement of:

arguably the league's best until roughly 2007

We've been down this road before.

Tomlin's picks:
2007 - Timmons
2008 - Mendenhall
2009 - Hood
2010 - Pouncey
2011 - Heyward
2012 - DeCastro
2013 - Jones
2014 - Shazier

Most people would say it's a bit too early to be able to gauge the careers of the guys drafted in the first round - only - by Tomlin.

Yes, Cowher hit a **** ton out of the park, but evidenced by my previous post, he also ****** the football a few times as well.

 

[Superman]

I noticed you conveniently left out Kendall Simmons in your statement.

Simmons was drafted out of Auburn in 2002, where he played LT.

Per the argument on this board, if someone plays a position entirely different than that which he played in college, then that player is immediately and permanently tattooed with a "BUST" tag, despite any contributions to the team this player may ever make. He's also considered an albatross and is subject of much ridicule, gnashing of the teeth and hand-wringing while lamenting ***insert player*** was also available at that point in the draft.

 

[Idioteque]

I noticed you conveniently left out Kendall Simmons in your statement.

Simmons was drafted out of Auburn in 2002, where he played LT.

Per the argument on this board, if someone plays a position entirely different than that which he played in college, then that player is immediately and permanently tattooed with a "BUST" tag, despite any contributions to the team this player may ever make. He's also considered an albatross and is subject of much ridicule, gnashing of the teeth and hand-wringing while lamenting ***insert player*** was also available at that point in the draft.

Not sure who would make that argument. It doesn't make sense.

 

[Idioteque]

so now you're changing the dynamics of the argument. You now wish to state "first round selections" instead of the original statement of:

?? The original statement was that we drafted better under Cowher, not that we drafted better in the 5th round. Under Cowher, we built a league-best roster, hitting almost every first-rounder out of the park, intermingled with probably league-average success in the middle rounds. Under Tomlin, we're getting mediocre (at best) first-round production and probably average-to-subpar success from the middle.

Obviously, that's all subjective, but I think it's hard to argue. Plus the talent discrepancy is shown in our W-L.

We've been down this road before.

Tomlin's picks:
2007 - Timmons
2008 - Mendenhall
2009 - Hood
2010 - Pouncey
2011 - Heyward
2012 - DeCastro
2013 - Jones
2014 - Shazier

Most people would say it's a bit too early to be able to gauge the careers of the guys drafted in the first round - only - by Tomlin.

Yes, Cowher hit a **** ton out of the park, but evidenced by my previous post, he also ****** the football a few times as well.

The big success stories from Tomlin's first rounds are Timmons (solid ILB), Pouncey (good, but a roller coaster), Heyward (looks very good, but not an All-Pro type), and DeCastro (see Heyward). I just don't see how we can even start to compare that to Hampton-Troy-Ben-Heath-Holmes, which will produce two HOFers and a Super Bowl MVP. And when we factor in the middle rounds, it certainly doesn't swing into Tomlin's favor.

 

[Supersteeler]

Not sure who would make that argument.

I chuckled. You can be pretty funny sometimes.

 

[Idioteque]

I chuckled. You can be pretty funny sometimes.

I can assure you, I have never once been from the "Timmons had to switch positions, so he's a bust!" camp. Never. I'm lukewarm on Timmons because of his ILB play.

God, you talk out of your ***.

 

[Supersteeler]

I can assure you, I have never once been from the "Timmons had to switch positions, so he's a bust!" camp. Never. I'm lukewarm on Timmons because of his ILB play.

God, you talk out of your ***.

You don't seem to be the most self aware fella around.

That would be like me after verbally beating the **** out of Roger Goodell on here for 3 years, suddenly throwing my hands up and going, "Hey man, I think he's kinda good actually, I don't know what the **** you guys are talking about". If you are gonna beat that drum, at least own it.

 

[Superman]

Please don't forget that under Cowher's SUPERIOR drafting, we also landed the pig-******* turds of Huey Richardson and Jamain Stephens in the first round. He also snagged Troy Edwards who had an awesome rookie season but flamed out quickly. The closet to a ****-up in the first, so far for Tomlin, would be Ziggy Hood. Though that can be argued that Hood ranks somewhere between Edwards and Richardson on the stupid pick scale.

Cowher was an excellent coach, and I wished he would have kept at it. I'm not a Tomlin lover, but the **** flung at the man is sometimes ludicrous.

 

[Supersteeler]

Please don't forget that under Cowher's SUPERIOR drafting, we also landed the pig-******* turds of Huey Richardson and Jamain Stephens in the first round. He also snagged Troy Edwards who had an awesome rookie season but flamed out quickly. The closet to a ****-up in the first, so far for Tomlin, would be Ziggy Hood. Though that can be argued that Hood ranks somewhere between Edwards and Richardson on the stupid pick scale.

Cowher was an excellent coach, and I wished he would have kept at it. I'm not a Tomlin lover, but the **** flung at the man is sometimes ludicrous.

Let us not forget the 2nd Round steal of Scott Shields please. That was a coup.

 

[Supersteeler]

?? The original statement was that we drafted better under Cowher, not that we drafted better in the 5th round. Under Cowher, we built a league-best roster, hitting almost every first-rounder out of the park, intermingled with probably league-average success in the middle rounds. Under Tomlin, we're getting mediocre (at best) first-round production and probably average-to-subpar success from the middle.

What I want to know is if Timmons is a now being referred to by you as a "Solid ILB", what would possess you to spend so many man hours over the years disparaging his draft position and his overall play since then?

 

[Idioteque]

Please don't forget that under Cowher's SUPERIOR drafting, we also landed the pig-******* turds of Huey Richardson and Jamain Stephens in the first round. He also snagged Troy Edwards who had an awesome rookie season but flamed out quickly. The closet to a ****-up in the first, so far for Tomlin, would be Ziggy Hood. Though that can be argued that Hood ranks somewhere between Edwards and Richardson on the stupid pick scale.

Cowher was an excellent coach, and I wished he would have kept at it. I'm not a Tomlin lover, but the **** flung at the man is sometimes ludicrous.

So your contention is that we've drafted with the same quality over the last seven years, as we did over the previous era? There's more to the equation than bust percentage. Cowher brought in the league's best core and two sure-fire HOFers who are STILL carrying the team to this day.

I'm not trying to make this a Tomlin v. Cowher issue. More of a Tomlin v. Non-Tomlin thing. The organization built two great cores of players - including the best in the league during the mid-2000s - in the 15 years before Tomlin arrived. Since 2007, the entire draft strategy changed, with new types of players (mainly 4-3 defenders) prioritized and drafted high and stuffed into key roles. And over that span, we have yet to draft a superstar player, let alone assemble a great core. We still live and die by the performance of the last generation. When Ben, Troy, and Ike play well, we typically win. When the game hinges on the young "talent," we lose.

 

[Idioteque]

What I want to know is if Timmons is a now being referred to by you as a "Solid ILB", what would possess you to spend so many man hours over the years disparaging his draft position and his overall play since then?

The reason I find myself in so many heated Timmons debates on here is that the guy has been granted God status from this board. Anytime I (or anyone, really) bring up a criticism - and there are plenty of opportunities - half the board tailspins into sheer fury. And every time the guy makes a tackle, we get a "See how dominant Timmons is? SUCK IT IDIOT AND VADER!" thread. Hence, my many mentions of Timmons.

 

[ark steel]

The reason I find myself in so many heated Timmons debates on here is that the guy has been granted God status from this board. Anytime I (or anyone, really) bring up a criticism - and there are plenty of opportunities - half the board tailspins into sheer fury. And every time the guy makes a tackle, we get a "See how dominant Timmons is? SUCK IT IDIOT AND VADER!" thread. Hence, my many mentions of Timmons.

So, is someone praises Timmons, you MUST reply? You can't let it go?

 

[Idioteque]

So, is someone praises Timmons, you MUST reply? You can't let it go?

I guess I could, but then again, this is a discussion board. So I don't see the harm.

 

[ark steel]

I guess I could, but then again, this is a discussion board. So I don't see the harm.

Okies, just trying to figure **** out. I see lots of **** I think is stupid without responding at all.

 

[Vader]

Nobody ever made the case that Timmons was a bust based on him being moved inside. That's a huge strawman. The issue was that of value for a #15 overall draft pick. Very few people ever called him a bust at all. I sure as hell didn't. My, and many other people's, issue was that he was drafted to be the ROLB in a 3-4 which is a prime position. But it was hardly anywhere near the main issue. ILBs in a 3-4 aren't near as valuable. This was before the recent attempt to draft smaller faster ILBs like Shazier and Spence. They had guys like Larry Foote who did a decent job. Unless you are getting a stud ILB like Willis then I would rather have had a LT like Staley. That has always been the issue not the "Timmons is a bust because he was drafted to play OLB but they had to move him inside" non-sense. Nobody ever said that.

 

[Supersteeler]

The reason I find myself in so many heated Timmons debates on here is that the guy has been granted God status from this board. Anytime I (or anyone, really) bring up a criticism - and there are plenty of opportunities - half the board tailspins into sheer fury. And every time the guy makes a tackle, we get a "See how dominant Timmons is? SUCK IT IDIOT AND VADER!" thread. Hence, my many mentions of Timmons.

I think you're perspective is slanted. As Ark said ANY TIME Timmons makes a good play and it is commented upon you rush as fast as possible to start with the disparaging **** bringing up every negative as if you are somehow threatened by any perceived success he may be having. It all seems very silly and unnecessary. It's like you guys make calls to each other to get out the comments in mass as soon as possible.

 

[Supersteeler]

Nobody ever made the case that Timmons was a bust based on him being moved inside. That's a huge strawman. The issue was that of value for a #15 overall draft pick. Very few people ever called him a bust at all. I sure as hell didn't. My, and many other people's, issue was that he was drafted to be the ROLB in a 3-4 which is a prime position. But it was hardly anywhere near the main issue. ILBs in a 3-4 aren't near as valuable. This was before the recent attempt to draft smaller faster ILBs like Shazier and Spence. They had guys like Larry Foote who did a decent job. Unless you are getting a stud ILB like Willis then I would rather have had a LT like Staley. That has always been the issue not the "Timmons is a bust because he was drafted to play OLB but they had to move him inside" non-sense. Nobody ever said that.

Seems like semantics for saying exactly that. Ok so you won't say he is a bust because he was supposed to be an OLB but it was a bad pick because he was supposed to be an OLB. How is that any different?

 

[Supersteeler]

I guess I could, but then again, this is a discussion board. So I don't see the harm.

It seems like you are threatened by it. Why?

 

[Superman]

So your contention is that we've drafted with the same quality over the last seven years, as we did over the previous era?

I'm not trying to make this a Tomlin v. Cowher issue. More of a Tomlin v. Non-Tomlin thing. The organization built two great cores of players - including the best in the league during the mid-2000s with two sure-fire HOFers - in the 15 years before Tomlin arrived. Since 2007, the entire draft strategy changed, with new types of players (mainly 4-3 defenders) prioritized and drafted high and stuffed into key roles. And over that span, we have yet to draft a superstar player, let alone assemble a great core. We still live and die by the performance of the last generation. When Ben, Troy, and Ike play well, we typically win. When the game hinges on the young "talent," we lose.

Could it possibly be the overall talent pool available when we do pick? Nah.
I mean, there were absolutely NOTHING but future HOFers picked immediately after we selected a "solid ILB" in Timmons who, as you state, gives plenty of opportunities to bash him.

In fact, right now there's not a whole lot of talent that was selected after our picks, if you look objectively at the drafts.

If you don't want to make this a Cowher vs Tomlin issue, then why did YOU state that something changed in 2007 (coincidentally the same draft that Tomlin took over)?
A Tomlin vs Non-Tomlin thing doesn't make a lick of sense.

Hell, for all we know, Heyward and Shazier could be HOFers when their careers are done. The same cold be said for Pouncey and DeCastro.
It's awfully narrow-minded to gauge the play of guys just starting their NFL careers vs guys at the tail end of or having finished theirs (this does not include Timmons who has played for 8 years - he is what he is).

 

[Idioteque]

Could it possibly be the overall talent pool available when we do pick? Nah.
I mean, there were absolutely NOTHING but future HOFers picked immediately after we selected a "solid ILB" in Timmons who, as you state, gives plenty of opportunities to bash him.

In fact, right now there's not a whole lot of talent that was selected after our picks, if you look objectively at the drafts.

Maybe it's all a coincidence, then. But seven years' worth of drafting seems to create at least a decent sample size.

If you don't want to make this a Cowher vs Tomlin issue, then why did YOU state that something changed in 2007 (coincidentally the same draft that Tomlin took over)?
A Tomlin vs Non-Tomlin thing doesn't make a lick of sense.

Yes it does. I don't necessarily think Cowher himself was a great drafter, just that we drafted great in the decade or so before Tomlin arrived. Whether Cowher was The Difference, the straw that stirred the drink, is irrelevant. Maybe it was Khan or a wise janitor or blind luck, who knows. All I know is that we had the same ownership, GM, and probably roughly the same scouting departments for the most part. And that in 2007 we immediately began taking 4-3 defenders like Timmons, Hood, Davis, etc. very high and plugging them into 3-4 roles. We immediately started tipping our hand and practically announcing every first-round pick prior to the draft.

So better or worse, our draft philosophy changed monumentally in 2007, and so far the results have been closer to "worse."

Hell, for all we know, Heyward and Shazier could be HOFers when their careers are done. The same cold be said for Pouncey and DeCastro.
It's awfully narrow-minded to gauge the play of guys just starting their NFL careers vs guys at the tail end of or having finished theirs (this does not include Timmons who has played for 8 years - he is what he is).

Absolutely, and FWIW I think Shazier and DeCastro in particular will be great, Pro Bowl-caliber players. But the discussion we're having is based on current reality, not hypotheticals 10 years down the road. If Tomlin's picks end up outstanding, then I'll obviously have to adjust my opinion of Tomlin's drafting. Right now, all I can go by are the results that we've seen. And at this point there's simply no comparison between The Pre-Tomlin and Tomlin Eras.

 

[Idioteque]

Okies, just trying to figure **** out. I see lots of **** I think is stupid without responding at all.

I just like to discuss the stuff, I guess.