Our new punter looks to be an upgrade.

[deljzc]

I argue about resource management. As in are we getting the most for our resource in every decision Colbert and Tomlin make. Whether it's a draft choice, trading back opportunities, salary cap usage, etc.

You guys are arguing over 1 undrafted punter making X minimum salary vs. another undrafted punter making X minimum salary. There is nothing to debate or criticize. If you have a punter making $2.5 million on the salary books and someone wants to argue/debate with me that a minimum salary punter is likely just as good and costs $2 million less, I'm all ears. Let's debate.

But this "argument" between who is better, Jordan Berry or Will Monday has no bearing on the team at all. None. They are practically equal salary and equal resource usage. You have to have two punters in every training camp.

Again, you guys just picked the ones you like but it really doesn't matter.

It MIGHT matter to the team if Artie Burns doesn't pan out to be a good CB after spending the resource of a #25 overall pick on him, thus it's worthwhile to debate where people stand on that decision by our front office. As well as most of our draft choices and off-season decision that involve money, salary cap, draft picks or cuts/releases that didn't HAVE to be done.

And for the most part, that's what we discuss here, plus some odds and ends like commenting on news articles or the propaganda machine about the Steelers.

 

[insaniti]

Well there's your problem, not everything is about money. And when someone, specifically coach, starts spouting off about players, and uses incorrect stats, and tries to justify it in a way that only makes since in his world I'm gonna call bullshit. If you have that big of a problem with the two of us arguing over punters, don't open the thread. It's pretty simple actually, I skim over quite a few posts that just aren't worth my time...

I'm sorry this post doesn't fit YOUR agenda, and it's clear to me by your post that you DO skip over plenty of posts if you think that's what we talk about most.

 

[Stryker]

I'm all for competition in training camp, and I am looking forward to see what Monday can do in the preseason.

My biggest problem with the thread is naming it: Our new punter LOOKS to be an upgrade. This just smacks of an air of superiority about an unknown undrafted kicker over an NFL vet.

I'd be much more comfortable if the thread was titled: Our new punter COULD be an upgrade. That strengthens the competition aspect that the new punter will face, and turns this into an open debate thread, as opposed to being a thread with a slant to defend.

 

[Coach]

Isn't this argument easy to find out who wins?

Whoever makes the roster as our punter, that guy is right and the other guy is wrong. Simple.

Let it go and re-visit this thread September 1st.

I can live with that. Monday has the edge on leg power, get off speed, hang time, and 4th down options. I also think he's a better last line of defense type based on his speed and size on punt returns. Berry has the edge on control and he's the incumbent.

May the best man win. I have nothing against Berry. I wanted him to beat out Brad Wing. Before Wing, the Steelers had Butler. The position has been poor in terms of performance and a revolving door for years...

 

[Coach]

I'm all for competition in training camp, and I am looking forward to see what Monday can do in the preseason.

My biggest problem with the thread is naming it: Our new punter LOOKS to be an upgrade. This just smacks of an air of superiority about an unknown undrafted kicker over an NFL vet.

I'd be much more comfortable if the thread was titled: Our new punter COULD be an upgrade. That strengthens the competition aspect that the new punter will face, and turns this into an open debate thread, as opposed to being a thread with a slant to defend.

Cope,

The numbers say its an upgrade. Hence, he could be an upgrade. A punter is a punter, except as I mentioned the snapping is better at the pro level and so is the kick coverage to limit returns and down the ball inside the 20. Berry is hardly a proven commodity. He punted here for just one season.

 

[Stryker]

Your numbers work in your favor, but college numbers are not NFL numbers.

 

[insaniti]

Your numbers work in your favor, but college numbers are not NFL numbers.

And they don't even work then, because Berry's college numbers exactly mirror his NFL numbers, he's VERY good at keeping the ball out of the EZ when pinning teams inside the 20. But then again, he played at the powerhouse known as Eastern Kentucky University.

And this whole "better fourth down option" crap, Berry had 4 rushes for 31 yards in college, and even threw one pass that was complete for 10 yards. Monday is like Kyle Boller, he had a strong arm (you know, he could throw the ball threw the up rights from the 50 yard line from his knees) but not much else going for him. Monday has a strong leg, horrible placement, pedestrian rushing stats (2 rushes for 7 yards), and average throwing stats (4-5 for 80 yards, 30 coming on one pass). But Coach LOVES him, cuz he kick ball long far!

 

[Coach]

Your numbers work in your favor, but college numbers are not NFL numbers.

Why not compare apples to apples then? What were Berry's college numbers in terms of touchbacks? I'm guessing not nearly as good! Pro kick coverage units are MUCH better, and so is the long snapping.


So I found Berry's college stats. First, a fun fact, post-college he was flipping burgers at McDonalds.


2013 stats: BERRY, Jordan 59 punts 2584 yards 43.8 average 77 yards for the longest punts, 4 touchbacks 7 fair catches forced 27 inside the 20-yard line, 18 punts over 50 yards, 0 blocked.

http://ekusports.com/documents/2013/9/2/13fbstats.pdf?id=4739

These numbers indicate a few things.

1 ) He wasn't good at forcing fair catches

2 ) NFL kick coverage helps a bit in terms of downing punts in the 20, forcing fair catches, and limiting touchbacks. So it would be logical to assume Monday's college stats here would be better in the NFL.

\
Berry's 2012 stats: 46 punts, 1,769 yards, 38.5 average, 63 yards for a long punt, 3 touchbacks, 10 fair catches forced, 19 punts inside the 20-yard line, and 6 punts over 50 yards.

Pretty poor overall.

http://ekusports.com/documents/2012/9/1/12fbstats.pdf?id=3967



Berry's 2011 stats

69 punts, 2,828 yards, 41.0 average, 6 touch backs, 16 fair catches, 22 inside the 20, 12 punts over 50 yards, 1 block


http://ekusports.com/documents/2011/9/4/11fbstats.pdf?id=3129


Conclusion >>>If we were to compare Monday to Berry in college, I think it's safe to say Monday was the better of a punter. If Monday limits his touchbacks, he'll win job according to the data.

 

[Steelerfan]

I think we should have an independent thread on just long-snappers. Page numbers might reach Archer territory.

(Not really, I just wanted and excuse to mention Archer in a thread)

 

[Stryker]

Apples to apples, you are stating an undrafted rookie college punter is better than an NFL punter.

Berry has an average kicking average with an exceptional pin to TB %.

Monday's NFL stats:

0 punts, 0 yards, 0 net average, 0 TBs, 0 downs inside the 20, 0 Blocks

Right now his touchbacks and punts blocked look good.

College production does not assure professional success. If it did, Troy Edwards would be a HOFer.

I'm interested in seeing the competition, but you can't crown an undrafted punter that has done nothing in the league yet.

 

[Coach]

Apples to apples, you are stating an undrafted rookie college punter is better than an NFL punter.

Berry has an average kicking average with an exceptional pin to TB %.

Monday's NFL stats:

0 punts, 0 yards, 0 net average, 0 TBs, 0 downs inside the 20, 0 Blocks

Right now his touchbacks and punts blocked look good.

College production does not assure professional success. If it did, Troy Edwards would be a HOFer.

I'm interested in seeing the competition, but you can't crown an undrafted punter that has done nothing in the league yet.

Berry was an undrafted punter with lesser college stats. His net average and average per kick are very low. And he shrunk as the season went on. The Edwards comparison is a bad one. He was too small and slow and played WR.

I want better. In my mock draft, I was for taking a punter in rounds 6 or 7. I'm happy Monday is here and think he's the best man for the job.

 

[Coach]

I think we should have an independent thread on just long-snappers. Page numbers might reach Archer territory.

(Not really, I just wanted and excuse to mention Archer in a thread)

Yes, do start that thread. Also why did the nfl ban 00 ? I think 00 would suit a LS just fine.

 

[Steelerfan81]

Edwards stats in college were amazing. That was point. I think he caught 21 passes for 400 yards in one game.

 

[Coach]

Edwards stats in college were amazing. That was point. I think he caught 21 passes for 400 yards in one game.

A punter is a punter regardless of where he plays unless he's booming them in a high altitude, then you have to downgrade a little and look at the road stats. It's a very easy position to evaluate and the stats translate much better to the NFL than a " system WR " Using the college data Monday > Berry.

Edwards was short, small, and slow. Three bad things for a wide receiver. He played in a spread offense vs. limited competition that greatly inflated his stats and was one heck of a reach for round one.

What the Steelers were thinking when they picked him is beyond me. Kearse was on the board. He wasn't Huey Richardson.

 

[deljzc]

I'm mostly of the opinion teams should NEVER and I really mean never have a kicker or punter that is not a minimum salary player.

Instead, teams should invest in a full-time kicking scout/coach whose only job is to scout kickers and punters both collegiate and international and have a "depth chart" of players to bring into camp every year.

The kicking scout/coach should be entirely responsible for training camp practices and determining who is the best choice before the season. Not the head coach (who has a million other things to worry about). The kicking coach could be consulted on every probability and statistical analysis during the game (not the head coach who all seem to think as long as a kick is "in range" it has the same probability of success).

I could find a kicking guru like this, pay them $1 million/year and still save $2 million in CASH every year as a team and potentially $3 million in salary cap room every season.

The idea there are only 32 EXACT kickers and punters than can perform well in the whole world is just stupid. There are tons that just need opportunities and very specialized coaching (not even from a special teams coach).

 

[insaniti]

A punter is a punter regardless of where he plays unless he's booming them in a high altitude, then you have to downgrade a little and look at the road stats. It's a very easy position to evaluate and the stats translate much better to the NFL than a " system WR " Using the college data Monday > Berry.

Edwards was short, small, and slow. Three bad things for a wide receiver. He played in a spread offense vs. limited competition that greatly inflated his stats and was one heck of a reach for round one.

What the Steelers were thinking when they picked him is beyond me. Kearse was on the board. He wasn't Huey Richardson.

A punter is a punter, and the only "lesser" stat Berry has that matters is LESS TOUCHBACKS, A LOT LESS. And yet, you're touting Monday as a Ray Guy type prospect, even claiming his 2 rushes for 7 yards make him a better fourth down option. I seriously can't figure out where you get your arguments from and how you justify them to yourself at all.

 

[Coach]

I'm mostly of the opinion teams should NEVER and I really mean never have a kicker or punter that is not a minimum salary player.

Instead, teams should invest in a full-time kicking scout/coach whose only job is to scout kickers and punters both collegiate and international and have a "depth chart" of players to bring into camp every year.

The kicking scout/coach should be entirely responsible for training camp practices and determining who is the best choice before the season. Not the head coach (who has a million other things to worry about). The kicking coach could be consulted on every probability and statistical analysis during the game (not the head coach who all seem to think as long as a kick is "in range" it has the same probability of success).

I could find a kicking guru like this, pay them $1 million/year and still save $2 million in CASH every year as a team and potentially $3 million in salary cap room every season.

The idea there are only 32 EXACT kickers and punters than can perform well in the whole world is just stupid. There are tons that just need opportunities and very specialized coaching (not even from a special teams coach).

These days I agree with it, except for eleite level punters and kickers. I tend to think a money kicker who won big games is worth 2-3X the average kicker. Just ask New England, who for all we know put helium in their footballs when the NFL wasn't looking.

The kickers these days are much better than the ones in the 70-s to 90's. The punters in general are much better too.

Just don't ask how much cap space the Steelers have tied up in Kickers. It could get ugly fast.

 

[Coach]

A punter is a punter, and the only "lesser" stat Berry has that matters is LESS TOUCHBACKS, A LOT LESS. And yet, you're touting Monday as a Ray Guy type prospect, even claiming his 2 rushes for 7 yards make him a better fourth down option. I seriously can't figure out where you get your arguments from and how you justify them to yourself at all.

Berry's net average is very poor. Doesn't less touchback save on net?

Also, you're omiting Monday's the 3 for 4 on passing on 4th downs, which could come into play. But above all else, Monday has the better leg. You harped on when Monday's were listed. Berry's college stats are worse, and you don't even want to reply there. I think I know why. If you did, you be guilty of double standards.

 

[insaniti]

Berry's net average is very poor. Doesn't less touchback save on net?

Also, you're omiting Monday's the 3 for 4 on passing on 4th downs, which could come into play. But above all else, Monday has the better leg. You harped on when Monday's were listed. Berry's college stats are worse, and you don't even want to reply there. I think I know why. If you did, you be guilty of double standards.

I never said Berry's stats in college were great, but they mirror exactly his stats in the NFL, consistent leg, consistent hang time, and consistently keeps the ball out of the EZ. Something that Monday DOESN'T do. Berry's three years in college touchbacks are less than Monday's final year in college (12-13). Spin this anyway you want it, Monday can get the ball long, but has ZERO control, unless of course you're going to credit Eastern Kentucky University with EXCELLENT special teams and coverage skills...

 

[deljzc]

These days I agree with it, except for eleite level punters and kickers. I tend to think a money kicker who won big games is worth 2-3X the average kicker. Just ask New England, who for all we know put helium in their footballs when the NFL wasn't looking.

The kickers these days are much better than the ones in the 70-s to 90's. The punters in general are much better too.

Just don't ask how much cap space the Steelers have tied up in Kickers. It could get ugly fast.

First, I agree kickers are more important than punters (by a lot), so let's just keep this discussion about kickers and whether a "good veteran" is worth the use in salary cap dollars.

Here is the list of 2016 kickers on rosters and what they are making:

http://overthecap.com/position/kicker/2016/

As you can see 20 teams have decided to pay more than minimum salary on a kicker. They range from Greg Zuerlein on the low side @ $1.25 million up to Justin Tucker on the high side ($4.5 million). Average is about $3 million.

The teams that are deciding NOT to spend money on kickers: Chargers, Broncos, Chiefs, Texans, Jaguars, Dolphins, Browns, Eagles, Redskins, Saints, Bucs, Cardinals.

Now I guess we can look back over the years and see those teams that choose to bring in 2-3 minimum salary kickers and let the best man win vs. those teams heavily invested in one "veteran" kicker and how each team performs. We can analyze those 12 teams above vs. the rest of the league this season in kicking statistics and really try to quantify the gains/difference that money gets you.

 

[Coach]

I never said Berry's stats in college were great, but they mirror exactly his stats in the NFL, consistent leg, consistent hang time, and consistently keeps the ball out of the EZ. Something that Monday DOESN'T do. Berry's three years in college touchbacks are less than Monday's final year in college (12-13). Spin this anyway you want it, Monday can get the ball long, but has ZERO control, unless of course you're going to credit Eastern Kentucky University with EXCELLENT special teams and coverage skills...

You didn't even bother to list Berry's college stats. If we were judging them coming out of college, Monday is superior. In the NFL, Berry is a bottom of the barrel punter in terms of net punting average and overall average.

This is why one of the best punters not drafted in 2016 chose Pittsburgh. It's the easiest path to winning an NFL job.

Although you have issues acknowledging the points made, the long snapping and the kick coverage in the NFL are the heck of a lot better than it is at Duke. These things help on limiting touchbacks and limiting the returns.

In 2012 and 2013, Monday only had 6 touchbacks in each year, which is slightly higher than the NFL average. If he had our kick coverage team, I'll go out on a limb and say the numbers is lower.

 

[insaniti]

You didn't even bother to list Berry's college stats. If we were judging them coming out of college, Monday is superior. In the NFL, Berry is a bottom of the barrel punter in terms of net punting average and overall average.

This is why one of the best punters not drafted in 2016 chose Pittsburgh. It's the easiest path to winning an NFL job.

Although you have issues acknowledging the points made, the long snapping and the kick coverage in the NFL are the heck of a lot better than it is at Duke. These things help on limiting touchbacks and limiting the returns.

In 2012 and 2013, Monday only had 6 touchbacks in each year, which is slightly higher than the NFL average. If he had our kick coverage team, I'll go out on a limb and say the numbers is lower.

And in 2015, he had 13. I don't care about averages and net averages. We don't have to "flip the field" very often because of our offense. We don't need someone averaging 50 yards a punt, what we need is someone who can consistently put the ball inside the 20 without getting touchbacks. YOU feel that Monday's stats are better, I do not. Monday isn't blowing Berry away, Berry has had several 60+ yard punts, and even had a 79 yard punt last year for us. I'm not concerned about his leg strength, but I sure do love his accuracy, and ability to put backspin on the ball and keep it out of the EZ.

And again, you address the Duke special teams as part of your argument for Monday being better, and again I'll point out that Berry was at the power house known as EASTERN KENTUCKY UNIVERSITY!!!!! Do you honestly think they are SO MUCH better in their kick coverages that they singly handedly helped Berry only have 12 touchbacks his entire college career? Hell, add in his NFL stats, put two more on the board for Berry, at 14 touchbacks in FOUR YEARS, it's still only ONE MORE than Monday had LAST YEAR ALONE, and still less than HALF of what Monday had in his college career.

Now you're trying to say that the best punter not drafted signed with us? What about Tom Hackett, was not drafted, a TWO TIME Ray Guy award winner, signed with the Jets as an UDFA. He had 106 punts inside the 20, 26 touchbacks, an average of 48 yards per punt, had 4 rushes for 106 yards, rated on several sites as the number one punting prospect. And that was just the first name I happened to grab off the list of punters that weren't drafted, funny how that works.

 

[Stryker]

Here's an unbiased article on Monday and his abilities:

http://www.Invalid Link - Check SN Home Page/2016/05/punter-will-monday-looking-push-jordan-berry/

 

[SteelerSask2]

I'm mostly of the opinion teams should NEVER and I really mean never have a kicker or punter that is not a minimum salary player.

Instead, teams should invest in a full-time kicking scout/coach whose only job is to scout kickers and punters both collegiate and international and have a "depth chart" of players to bring into camp every year.

The kicking scout/coach should be entirely responsible for training camp practices and determining who is the best choice before the season. Not the head coach (who has a million other things to worry about). The kicking coach could be consulted on every probability and statistical analysis during the game (not the head coach who all seem to think as long as a kick is "in range" it has the same probability of success).

I could find a kicking guru like this, pay them $1 million/year and still save $2 million in CASH every year as a team and potentially $3 million in salary cap room every season.

The idea there are only 32 EXACT kickers and punters than can perform well in the whole world is just stupid. There are tons that just need opportunities and very specialized coaching (not even from a special teams coach).

Theoretically that is a great idea. But here is the thing. There are literally thousands of guys who on any given day could give a PGA touring professional a run for his money. They hit the ball as far, and on good days are just as dialed in. However, there are tiny differences that separate those players and most of them are in the brain and responding to pressure. So you bring your camp guy in and he hits the kicks the same or even better in that situation then your higher priced guy. Then you get into a stadium on a Sunday with his teammates counting on him and 70 000 people looking on and you got a problem. There is some argument for punter, but you need a real good kicker. And there are special team/ backups guys who are totally replaceable making more money than a guy the whole game may ride upon.

 

[SteelerFan448]

You can't evaluate punters until they are in a game. I've watched a ton of guys in training camp, Berry included, look incredible with distance and hang time, but once they get onto the field during a game, the pressure gets to them. I'll get interested in this battle once the games finally start.