Religious Freedom Restoration Act

[Vis]

Business license...how can then government sell you a license to do something you already have a natural right to do?

What am I for? I am for equality before the law, personal liberty and all natural God given rights. In this case what we are talking about is the individuals right to free association. I have a right to associate with whom ever I please and to disassociate with whom ever I please for any reason. This holds true with my profession and place of business as well. Your rights do not trump mine and visa versa. You have a right to engage in what ever legal commerce you choose. You can't force me to do business with you. If I don't want to accept your custom you can't force me to. You have the right to go down the street to another merchant and I would have no right to stop you from doing so.

You must work somewhere and you must know that place has a business license. You are arguing from a place that does not exist. In your libertarian utopia, what does the ostracized minority do if the bully majority leaves them no place down the street to go? Like the Jews in Russia during the pogroms? Is that what you wish our country to be?

 

[Vis]

Here's a funny take on the change in society on this issue

 

[Booted]

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[Vis]

View attachment 1356..........

while enforcing standards so your house is safe after it's built.

 

[DBS1970]

You must work somewhere and you must know that place has a business license. You are arguing from a place that does not exist. In your libertarian utopia, what does the ostracized minority do if the bully majority leaves them no place down the street to go? Like the Jews in Russia during the pogroms? Is that what you wish our country to be?

The USA is not Russia. Even in the Jim Crow south blacks could find places to shop. Even that famous Woolworths in Greensboro NC where the lunch counter sit in took place allowed blacks to shop in the store even if they could not allow them to eat at the lunch counter by law.

 

[DBS1970]

while enforcing standards so your house is safe after it's built.

Like all those houses in Miami Dade that the roofs blew off of in hurricane Hugo. Thos e 1000 year old cathedrals in Europe I wonder how they are still standing since there were no government Daleks to inspect the workmanship and materials in the late middle ages.

 

[Vis]

Like all those houses in Miami Dade that the roofs blew off of in hurricane Hugo. Thos e 1000 year old cathedrals in Europe I wonder how they are still standing since there were no government Daleks to inspect the workmanship and materials in the late middle ages.

You are so far out there now. I don't believe you would hire an electrician and not ask if he was licensed to do the work.

 

[Vis]

The USA is not Russia. Even in the Jim Crow south blacks could find places to shop. Even that famous Woolworths in Greensboro NC where the lunch counter sit in took place allowed blacks to shop in the store even if they could not allow them to eat at the lunch counter by law.

Separate but equal huh? You lost that battle half a century ago.

 

[DBS1970]

You are so far out there now. I don't believe you would hire an electrician and not ask if he was licensed to do the work.

I believe there was a system in place back then that provided for the credentialing of skilled craftsmen back then. Your example of electricians works partly under that system now. You know the one that has the tiers Helper, apprentice, journeyman, and master. I believe lawyers self regulate today...

 

[Spike]

So If you’re gay and run a print shop the govt should come in and force you to print ‘God Hates Fags' for the Greenville Baptist Church because they use those signs?

 

[Yinzerlyn]

What no one seems to be bothered with is that Indiana and how many other states felt they needed this type of law in the first place. Pretty sure there is a document somewhere that guarantees that sort of thing.

Pshh.....who gives a **** about the Constitution nowadays.....

 

[Yinzerlyn]

So If you’re gay and run a print shop the govt should come in and force you to print ‘God Hates Fags' for the Greenville Baptist Church because they use those signs?

It's the Westboro Baptist Church....

 

[Vis]

So If you’re gay and run a print shop the govt should come in and force you to print ‘God Hates Fags' for the Greenville Baptist Church because they use those signs?

This one has been litigated. No, you can't force content. But if the Baptist asks you to print his yard sale notice you can't refuse him for being a Baptist. Simple.

 

[Vis]

It's the Westboro Baptist Church....

Spike knows I live in Greenville.

 

[Yinzerlyn]

Spike knows I live in Greenville.

Oh. LOL. I am about 2 hours away from the WBC so we hear about them more than anyone needs to. Fred Phelps is just a hateful horrible person.

 

[Spike]

Spike knows I live in Greenville.

ha ha

I took a wild guess

 

[EdReed4Prez]

This one has been litigated. No, you can't force content. But if the Baptist asks you to print his yard sale notice you can't refuse him for being a Baptist. Simple.

So if the content is "congrats bill and John" with two grooms on top can the religious baker refuse that content?

Serious law question not just stirring the pot btw.

 

[Vis]

So if the content is "congrats bill and John" with two grooms on top can the religious baker refuse that content?

Serious law question not just stirring the pot btw.

There's a tricky question. Just do generic decorations but don't refuse the customer? If that was the stance I'm not sure. I think they want to refuse the customer though. If litigated they may have to describe why they thought the content was offensive. My overall position is that if the black nurse must work to save the klansman's life after a cross falls on him a bake shop can sell the two mommies a damn biscotti and for them to refuse to do so is small and mean.

 

[oneforthebus]

Then you really have no fundamental understanding of freedom. In the Jim Crow days segregation was codified by law and forced by the government. Of course the government has no right to do that but then neither does the government have the right to tell anyone they must associate with anyone else. If one place doesn't want your money then go to another place does want their money.

My understanding of freedom does not include restricting certain classes of people from public places or restricting their purchasing power because of their status.

It's one thing to have someone refuse to bake a cake for you, what you're suggesting is that it's ok for doctors and hospitals to refuse you treatment, real estate agents refuse to allow you to purchase their listings, mortgage companies to reject qualified applicants due to their race, religion, physical disability, or other "undesirable" status, utilities to refuse to provide you with water or electricity...tyranny of a majority over a minority, or stronger over weaker, is not any part of my understanding of "freedom". The concept of "rights' exists to protect individuals from such tyranny.

 

[Rod Farva]

There's a tricky question. Just do generic decorations but don't refuse the customer? If that was the stance I'm not sure. I think they want to refuse the customer though. If litigated they may have to describe why they thought the content was offensive. My overall position is that if the black nurse must work to save the klansman's life after a cross falls on him a bake shop can sell the two mommies a damn biscotti and for them to refuse to do so is small and mean.

On the upside, the CRA like most laws, written by lawyers for lawyers ensure perpetual employment for lawyers.

 

[oneforthebus]

Good. Then I can go into a Muslim restaurant and demand bacon.

Is there some Christian tenet I'm unaware of that forbids baking cakes for sinners? If they only bake cakes for the sin-free I suspect they'd go out of business quickly.

Jesus himself embraced a prostitute.

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

That wasn't a gay baker and the customer wasn't refused, the content was. Surely you see the distinction.

No? Are you going to try and go down the path that "no gays ever refuse service/customers" based on their beliefs? You will fail: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/05/florida-bakery-anti-gay-message_n_7007390.html

Second, there is no distinction between the two. A florist refuses to provide flowers for a gay wedding, but will make flowers for gay people; a pizzeria will serve gay patrons, but won't service a gay wedding; a gay bakery will serve straight patrons, but refuses to make pro-traditional wedding cakes. All synonymous.

None are refusing the customers, they are refusing the content or the associated religious practice. The gays are more than welcome, for instance, to stay and have a pie (no pun intended) at the Pizzeria. The owners just won't participate in the "ceremony."

 

[oneforthebus]

None are refusing the customers, they are refusing the content or the associated religious practice. The gays are more than welcome, for instance, to stay and have a pie (no pun intended) at the Pizzeria. The owners just won't participate in the "ceremony."

Do they refuse to participate in all ceremonies that don't conform to their religious practices, or just the gay ones?

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

Is there some Christian tenet I'm unaware of that forbids baking cakes for sinners? If they only bake cakes for the sin-free I suspect they'd go out of business quickly.

Jesus himself embraced a prostitute.

Jesus indeed embraced a prostitute. I doubt as a carpenter he'd have used his craft to build strip clubs and ***** houses though.

 

[oneforthebus]

Jesus indeed embraced a prostitute. I doubt as a carpenter he'd have used his craft to build strip clubs and ***** houses though.

I don't think he would refuse to provide a stripper or a ***** with shelter.