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Responsible Gun Owners

Tim, Is calling it a permit instead of a license less of an issue?

Nope. I have a Constitutionally granted, inalienable right to bear arms. Not to be infringed - by license or permit. By requiring licensing or permitting you are in fact giving the Government the right to track, prohibit, and confiscate weapons which violates my RIGHT to bear arms. It takes away the purpose of the 2nd which is to make sure the citizenry has means to fight an oppressive government. Permitting and licensing directly undermines the spirit of the 2nd.

I get the requirements for CC permits, etc. I'm not opposed to them with just cause. But absolutely against them in the context you're inferring we have them. Simply to own a weapon requires a permit. Nah.

Good point, though Federal buildings and court houses are gun free zones, and they don't get shot up.

You know what they ALL have in common, unlike schools? They have armed guards. Every federal building and court house has armed guards. Schools don't. All are gun free zones. Schools get shot up.

Weird...that.
 
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The constitution says "property without due process".....

It also says "right to bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED". Not one word about due process there.

And nothing about property being “well regulated” (maintained by authority).
 
Mostly fiscal and criminal responsibilities for gun owners.
Still not getting the point. There are already laws in place for criminal behavior. Adding more government mandates around ownership - or as you put it - holding gun owners more accountable - may make you feel better, but it won't move the needle on gun crimes - because criminals don't follow the rules as many here have said.
 
And nothing about property being “well regulated” (maintained by authority).

Says the militia will be well regulated, IMO, because the people have the right to bear arms. All of the rights down to 9 are individual rights. You think the 2nd one is about a militia?
 
I think you're confusing and conflating the two.

It is a RIGHT to bear arms. It is not a RIGHT to drive a car. We are given the right to bear arms by the Constitution. The same document does NOT grant us the rights to drive a vehicle.

You try to compare the two, but they are non-comparable because one is a right, the other is not.

It is not every American's "choice" to own a gun either. It is their inalienable right to do so.

Good point, I didn't think of that. And if I'm to be consistent, then I have to rethink my opinion of making people take a safety course in order to buy guns. I still think it's the wise, prudent thing to do, but it may very well violate Constitutional rights to mandate it.
 
And nothing about property being “well regulated” (maintained by authority).

It is your view and the view of Liberals that "well regulated" is to be interpreted to mean "maintained by authority."

You do realize there is much debate about this? Of course you don't.

These may be the best dissertations on the subject I have read:

https://www.thomhartmann.com/forum/...litia”-2nd-amendment-what-exactly-did-it-mean

https://www.lectlaw.com/files/gun01.htm

he above analysis leads us finally to the term "well regulated." What did these two words mean at the time of ratification? Were they commonly used to refer to a governmental bureaucracy as we know it today, with countless rules and regulations and inspectors, or something quite different? We begin this analysis by examining how the term "regulate" was used elsewhere in the Constitution. In every other instance where the term "regulate" is used, or regulations are referred to, the Constitution specifies who is to do the regulating and what is being "regulated." However, in the Second Amendment, the Framers chose only to use the term "well regulated" to describe a militia and chose not to define who or what would regulate it.

It is also important to note that the Framers' chose to use the indefinite article "a" to refer to the militia, rather than the definite article "the." This choice suggests that the Framers were not referring to any particular well regulated militia but, instead, only to the concept that well regulated militias, made up of citizens bearing arms, were necessary to secure a free State. Thus, the Framers chose not to explicitly define who, or what, would regulate the militias, nor what such regulation would consist of, nor how the regulation was to be accomplished.

This comparison of the Framers' use of the term "well regulated" in the Second Amendment, and the words "regulate" and "regulation" elsewhere in the Constitution, clarifies the meaning of that term in reference to its object, namely, the Militia. There is no doubt the Framers understood that the term "militia" had multiple meanings. First, the Framers understood all of the people to be part of the unorganized militia. The unorganized militia members, "the people," had the right to keep and bear arms. They could, individually, or in concert, "well regulate" themselves; that is, they could train to shoot accurately and to learn the basics of military tactics.

This interpretation is in keeping with English usage of the time, which included within the meaning of the verb "regulate" the concept of self- regulation or self-control (as it does still to this day). The concept that the people retained the right to self-regulate their local militia groups (or regulate themselves as individual militia members) is entirely consistent with the Framers' use of the indefinite article "a" in the phrase "A well regulated Militia."

This concept of the people's self-regulation, that is, non-governmental regulation, is also in keeping with the limited grant of power to Congress "for calling forth" the militia for only certain, limited purposes, to "provide for" the militia only certain limited control and equipment, and the limited grant of power to the President regarding the militia, who only serves as Commander in Chief of that portion of the militia called into the actual service of the nation. The "well regula[tion]" of the militia set forth in the Second Amendment was apart from that control over the militia exercised by Congress and the President, which extended only to that part of the militia called into actual service of the Union. Thus, "well regula[tion]" referred to something else. Since the fundamental purpose of the militia was to serve as a check upon a standing army, it would seem the words "well regulated" referred to the necessity that the armed citizens making up the militia(s) have the level of equipment and training necessary to be an effective and formidable check upon the national government's standing army.

This view is confirmed by Alexander Hamilton's observation, in The Federalist, No. 29, regarding the people's militias ability to be a match for a standing army: " . . . but if circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude, that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people, while there is a large body of citizens, little if at all inferior to them in discipline and use of arms, who stand ready to defend their rights . . . ."

It is an absolute truism that law-abiding, armed citizens pose no threat to other law-abiding citizens. The Framers' writings show they also believed this. As we have seen, the Framers understood that "well regulated" militias, that is, armed citizens, ready to form militias that would be well trained, self-regulated and disciplined, would pose no threat to their fellow citizens, but would, indeed, help to "insure domestic Tranquility" and "provide for the common defence."
 
I have to say I appreciate Cope being open to honest discussion, and listening to people. I don't agree with everything he's put forth, but he's at least trying to have a legit conversation and think through the issues.
 
Did you mean to quote the 4th Amendment on unlawful search and seizure? I'm not sure what Pleading the 5th has to do with this topic. Or is there a joke I'm missing that Trog should be pleading the 5th?

Also, I know we're going a bit off topic with cars vs guns. Can't guns be confiscated if you forget your conceal carry permit, or don't have a permit for the gun on you?

Tim, Is calling it a permit instead of a license less of an issue?

no. Flog was making a comparison that someone can be back on the streets driving after a DUI. To this, you could apply "nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law" since a person can be bonded out for a DUI, get their vehicle from impound and essentially drive it home. Additionally, a person can get a hardship license to drive to/from work after having a DUI. So, in that regard, he is correct. What he doesn't understand is why that is possible.

however, if you shoot someone, your gun used WILL be taken by the popo until their investigation is complete. at which point you can retrieve your gun if it's determined the shooting was legal and charges are not brought against you.

though, you can also go buy a car from a dealer immediately after being bonded out.
shoot a ****** and try to go buy a gun from a FFL. see how far along in the process you get.
 
It is your view and the view of Liberals that "well regulated" is to be interpreted to mean "maintained by authority."

You do realize there is much debate about this? Of course you don't.

These may be the best dissertations on the subject I have read:

https://www.thomhartmann.com/forum/...litia”-2nd-amendment-what-exactly-did-it-mean

https://www.lectlaw.com/files/gun01.htm

I look at it like this: In order to have well regulated access to my house, i have a locked door. Foolishly, i open it for some deranged individuals on occasion, but that is another story.

In any event, in order to have well regulated access, i have a locked door. I.e. I have a barrier in the way of people walking in and out of my house.

If the reference to "militia" IS reference to something not the people (i dont really think it does), the barrier that keeps them regulated is our right to bear arms.
 
I look at it like this: In order to have well regulated access to my house, i have a locked door. Foolishly, i open it for some deranged individuals on occasion, but that is another story.

You willfully unlock your door for Ogres?

I once ate next to an Ogre in Tampa FL. I'm still in therapy.
 
It is your view and the view of Liberals that "well regulated" is to be interpreted to mean "maintained by authority."

You do realize there is much debate about this? Of course you don't.

These may be the best dissertations on the subject I have read:

https://www.thomhartmann.com/forum/...litia”-2nd-amendment-what-exactly-did-it-mean

https://www.lectlaw.com/files/gun01.htm

What you don’t understand is that the only debate and subsequent opinion that counts is that of the Supreme Court who ruled that the 2nd Amendment is NOT an unlimited right and that guns and gun ownership would continue to be regulated.
 
What you don’t understand is that the only debate and subsequent opinion that counts is that of the Supreme Court who ruled that the 2nd Amendment is NOT an unlimited right and that guns and gun ownership would continue to be regulated.

They also ruled it is an Individual right. We KNOW it is not unlimited as I cannot go out and legally buy a fully automatic weapon, without permission to do so. I can't legally buy an RPG. Most people don't complain about these, although, I'm skeptical of the limitations. Bad guys can still buy them.

In any event, the limitations, by necessity, must be minor. If you change the law to require a safety course, who pays for that? If you put it on the individual, the price may be so high to make it prohibitive, especially to the poor and minorities who, reasonably, need protection the most. Same with a license. At what point, does the safety course and licensing fee become prohibitive? Are they both going to be "free"? Wait, let me guess, income based. Rich people pay an outlandish price to subsidize the poor people.

You liberals already tell us that giving people a free State issued ID for voting discriminates against minorities (how, i can't possibly guess).

There is no legitimate reason the state or anyone else needs to know what or how many guns a law abiding citizen owns.
 
What you don’t understand is that the only debate and subsequent opinion that counts is that of the Supreme Court who ruled that the 2nd Amendment is NOT an unlimited right and that guns and gun ownership would continue to be regulated.

So now, as is par for the course, you are changing the discussion. First it was "well regulated," which you don't understand the intent of. Now you are switching the argument to an issue of unlimited rights.

No need to further respond, Ark took care of it.

Point remains, I have a constitutional right to bear arms. I do not have a constitutional right to drive a car.
 
Jump through hoops to use your natural right to self defense. It's unreasonable to show ID to
Vote though.
 
These are good points. What would be your ideas on helping to make them reduce gun violence?

Enforce laws we already have. Why are we so worried about legal gun purchases, yet there are hundreds of thousands of illegally owned guns on the street? Why aren't we attempting to round those up? I live near Philly and there is a kid shot and killed every couple of weeks at least, it's not even big news around here. And Philly is by far not the worst place for this type of gun violence...why isn't that a crisis?

Lock violent people up. Nik Cruz for example should have been confined to a juvenile facility of some sort. James Holmes had told his psychiatrist that he fantasized daily about killing people. She told campus police who did nothing. Where there are threats and warning signs we need to act, intervene, surveil, detain, stop worrying about trying to protect and mainstream violent people. The safety of everyone else should come first.

The guys like Adam Lanza or the Las Vegas shooter who are highly intelligent, have never hinted at their plans or shown any propensity for violence? I'm not sure there's any real solution for that. It's very hard to prevent anti-social people who don't care at all about consequences from doing terrible things. If we were somehow able to prevent them from getting guns, or "assault style rifles" legally, do you think they wouldn't come up with some other plan? The means is not the issue here.

Perhaps we should stop all of the "mass shooter" porn...stop publicizing this stuff in the media, stop obsessing over every detail of their lives and the horror and mayhem they have caused. That's what most of them are really after IMO...the infamy. But I'm not sure how you do that without restricting freedom of the press.
 
Still not getting the point. There are already laws in place for criminal behavior. Adding more government mandates around ownership - or as you put it - holding gun owners more accountable - may make you feel better, but it won't move the needle on gun crimes - because criminals don't follow the rules as many here have said.

And I think that is the argument CD. Do you regulate the guns, or do you regulate the gun owners? Due to the constitution, you can't, or at least shouldn't be able to regulate the guns. So the alternative would be to regulate gun owners. Otherwise nothing is done.
 
Jump through hoops to use your natural right to self defense. It's unreasonable to show ID to
Vote though.

I'm with you Dibs, I think we should also have to show proof of citizenship to vote, otherwise, how can we properly track who is voting?
 
Do you regulate the guns, or do you regulate the gun owners? Due to the constitution, you can't, or at least shouldn't be able to regulate the guns. So the alternative would be to regulate gun owners. Otherwise nothing is done.

Regulate, regulate, regulate, regulate.

This is apparently your wish. You, like people on the Left (not saying you are) honestly believe we need more regulations and this will fix gun violence and mass shootings...despite ample evidence that regulations fail. A history of regulations failing over and over. There's mountains of evidence. OFTB has posted great ones. Regulating doesn't work.

But you wanna be able to sleep at night, so you wanna regulate. It will make you feel good because hey we are "doing something."

Let's make every gun owner get a permit (even though that is unconstitutional). Then bad guys won't get guns!!!

Yeah. SMH.

Regulations will have no impact. None.
 
And I think that is the argument CD. Do you regulate the guns, or do you regulate the gun owners? Due to the constitution, you can't, or at least shouldn't be able to regulate the guns. So the alternative would be to regulate gun owners. Otherwise nothing is done.
I still think you are operating from an invalid premise, which is that the problem is some special "gun violence" category that can be solved with regulations. The problem is criminal behavior across a number of realms. School shootings are an issue, and the right way to attack it is to find similarities and causes. I personally believe that there is likely a common history of psychotropic drugs to treat everything from depression to ADD (or whatever they are calling restless boy behavior). Most "gun violence" happens in the inner city, and I believe there needs to be a massive culture shift in those communities, but it's racist to discuss that.
 
Nope. I have a Constitutionally granted, inalienable right to bear arms. Not to be infringed - by license or permit. By requiring licensing or permitting you are in fact giving the Government the right to track, prohibit, and confiscate weapons which violates my RIGHT to bear arms. It takes away the purpose of the 2nd which is to make sure the citizenry has means to fight an oppressive government. Permitting and licensing directly undermines the spirit of the 2nd.

I get the requirements for CC permits, etc. I'm not opposed to them with just cause. But absolutely against them in the context you're inferring we have them. Simply to own a weapon requires a permit. Nah.

I understand that. I think we are thinking differently about the term 'infringed'. We already permit guns, so I never felt a permit was an issue (CC, Hunting, etc).

I view the term 'infringed' upon the weapon itself. I.E. no litigation should be passed to limit the types of weapons you can buy, or own. Also not being able to change the magazine capacity intended for that weapon.
 
I view the term 'infringed' upon the weapon itself. I.E. no litigation should be passed to limit the types of weapons you can buy, or own.

that statement contradicts itself.
 
I.E. no litigation should be passed to limit the types of weapons you can buy, or own. Also not being able to change the magazine capacity intended for that weapon.

Cope...I really don't mean to sound or come across as insulting, but what you are writing is an either or proposition based upon the PRESUMPTION that you believe is a given that we must regulate this problem away. You're already down the wrong path, believing there is some rule, law, legislation, mandate we can pass that is going to fix gun violence.

IT WILL NOT.

No legislation should be passed to limit the types of weapons we can buy. Gracious of you, thanks. If legislation was passed, criminals would still get those weapons. Irrelevant.
No legislation should be passed to change magazine capacities for weapons. Gracious of you, thanks. This has been tried and failed. Choi killed 32 with pistols and standard clips. Irrelevant.
Background checks. They fail and don't work. Irrelevant.
Age limit restrictions. A vast majority of school shooters were under 18 and got the weapons anyway. Irrelevant.
Gun Free Zones. Liberals thought this would scare off shooters. They instead became greater targets. Irrelevant.
Banning Assault Weapons. Tried in 1994 for a decade. Gun violence INCREASED. The ban was irrelevant.

We have tried throwing **** at the wall on this issue for many decades. Fail.

Until people - you included - understand that the GUN IS NOT THE PROBLEM - we will never fix the problem.

Otherwise, let's keep spinning in circles, chasing our tails, which is what this thread is - dogs chasing tails looking to repeat the same mistakes we have made endlessly.

Keep focusing on the gun, you will keep failing.

The problem is the people. The drugs. The culture. Find solutions there.
 
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Enforce laws we already have. Why are we so worried about legal gun purchases, yet there are hundreds of thousands of illegally owned guns on the street? Why aren't we attempting to round those up? I live near Philly and there is a kid shot and killed every couple of weeks at least, it's not even big news around here. And Philly is by far not the worst place for this type of gun violence...why isn't that a crisis?

Lock violent people up. Nik Cruz for example should have been confined to a juvenile facility of some sort. James Holmes had told his psychiatrist that he fantasized daily about killing people. She told campus police who did nothing. Where there are threats and warning signs we need to act, intervene, surveil, detain, stop worrying about trying to protect and mainstream violent people. The safety of everyone else should come first.

The guys like Adam Lanza or the Las Vegas shooter who are highly intelligent, have never hinted at their plans or shown any propensity for violence? I'm not sure there's any real solution for that. It's very hard to prevent anti-social people who don't care at all about consequences from doing terrible things. If we were somehow able to prevent them from getting guns, or "assault style rifles" legally, do you think they wouldn't come up with some other plan? The means is not the issue here.

Perhaps we should stop all of the "mass shooter" porn...stop publicizing this stuff in the media, stop obsessing over every detail of their lives and the horror and mayhem they have caused. That's what most of them are really after IMO...the infamy. But I'm not sure how you do that without restricting freedom of the press.

you brought up Cruz, and that is the only reason I'm quoting you. I fully agree with your entire statement.

last night I was talking to my US Marshal neighbor. I asked why Cruz was allowed to slip through the cracks of the Promise program, and wanted his opinion, from a law enforcement side. paraphrasing, he said that there are so many people in the Promise program that it is difficult for the workers to keep tabs on. Yes, it's their job, but it's a government institution. Thus, we have some lazy-assed slackers who care more about playing games on their phones or surfing the internet than doing the jobs taxpayers pay them to do. It's a ridiculous circular environment, since it's hard to fire someone from that position. Cruz was not the type of person that the Promise program was designed for. It was designed for those who immigrate here, despite what it is labeled as now. But, then, there are so many people coming here and being placed into that program that the workers are thus overwhelmed. It's maddening.
/end his opinion

now, if we were to look at the Promise program for what it is...

https://www.nimhd.nih.gov/news-events/features/community-health/promise-program.html
The young men are from the pilot class of the Promise Program, an NIMHD-funded project aimed at reducing violence in the African American community.

Let's break this down a little more, though. Let's remove the "African American community" aspect of this statement, since anyone with two eyes can see that Cruz is as African American as Elizabeth Warren is Indian. So this is a program aimed at reducing violence. Admirable enough, right? Government funded, since no one wants to see children or teenagers be impacted by violence. 'if it saves one life," right?

So here we have a government funded program, designed to monitor and mentor children and teens with violent tendencies.

Yet it failed to protect the kids at Parkland. Even if they were not in the school and had to ride their Big Wheel to campus when shots rang out to feign victimization.

So, how can we trust any government program to keep us safe, when, as illustrated at Parkland High School, government programs designed specifically for this purpose are woefully incapable of following through on their core mission?

Let's hypothesize that everyone in the country did register every single gun they owned, bought and touched. As well as their very thoughts, dreams, levels of stress, as well as familial and financial roles in their lives.

There's 100% no way any group of people (and let's face it, the government is not some super deity that can oversee everyone in the country) can keep all of us safe from every act of violence involving a firearm. This was proven when Cruz fired the first shot at Parkland High.
 
Cope...I really don't mean to sound or come across as insulting, but what you are writing is an either or proposition based upon the PRESUMPTION that you believe is a given that we must regulate this problem away. You're already down the wrong path, believing there is some rule, law, legislation, mandate we can pass that is going to fix gun violence.

IT WILL NOT.

No legislation should be passed to limit the types of weapons we can buy. Gracious of you, thanks. If legislation was passed, criminals would still get those weapons. Irrelevant.
No legislation should be passed to change magazine capacities for weapons. Gracious of you, thanks. This has been tried and failed. Choi killed 32 with pistols and standard clips. Irrelevant.
Background checks. They fail and don't work. Irrelevant.
Age limit restrictions. A vast majority of school shooters were under 18 and got the weapons anyway. Irrelevant.
Gun Free Zones. Liberals thought this would scare off shooters. They instead became greater targets. Irrelevant.
Banning Assault Weapons. Tried in 1994 for a decade. Gun violence INCREASED. The ban was irrelevant.

We have tried throwing **** at the wall on this issue for many decades. Fail.

Until people - you included - understand that the GUN IS NOT THE PROBLEM - we will never fix the problem.

Otherwise, let's keep spinning in circles, chasing our tails, which is what this thread is - dogs chasing tails looking to repeat the same mistakes we have made endlessly.

Keep focusing on the gun, you will keep failing.

The problem is the people. The drugs. The culture. Find solutions there.

I'm confused at the disconnect here. I have not once stated that the gun is the problem or needs legislated (never once said to ban 'assault style weapons'). I do agree that the people are the problem as well.

What would be your solution?
 
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