School Choice Works in Canada

[MTC]

21 - our education system is going to **** because we take in millions upon millions of immigrants who are the lowest of the low in their country and don't speak a word of ******* English.

We feed them, and house them and try to educate them.

And then we pay for the healthcare, and housing, and food, and education for the kids they have at age 15. Unless you have been in public schools in large cities and know of these truths, you don't know a single ******* whit about ****.

Oh, and the Canadians have a uniform population that speaks the native ******* language. Try to compare apples to a food product, and not apples to oven mitts.

Well said. Attending an "inner city" school in high school. Complete different culture compared to parents/kids who give a damn.
I remember three of my classes where kids were just disrespectful and ruined learning for the rest.

Luckily my last two years, the majority of the students cared and pushed for betterment.
Libs think everything is fine and dandy it seems

 

[Yinzerlyn]

Our school district grandfathered in an area of Wichita that is economically depressed and majority Hispanic. Why? Because the school district (without Wichita) was too WHITE. This happened about 5-6 years ago, and since then, the quality of the education has gone down substantially. Lots of gang activity, drugs, poor test scores, and now our HS (which used to be in the top 5% of the HS in KS) is now a Title 1 school and now the whole district qualifies for free and reduced lunches. All in the name of "equality." The kids who DO care are being pushed aside to focus on the ones who can't speak English, have IEPs,or have behavior issues (or all of the above). It pisses me off. And it pisses the teachers off too. But if we say WHY Derby HS is starting to fail, it's racist.

 

[DBS1970]

Our school district grandfathered in an area of Wichita that is economically depressed and majority Hispanic. Why? Because the school district (without Wichita) was too WHITE. This happened about 5-6 years ago, and since then, the quality of the education has gone down substantially. Lots of gang activity, drugs, poor test scores, and now our HS (which used to be in the top 5% of the HS in KS) is now a Title 1 school and now the whole district qualifies for free and reduced lunches. All in the name of "equality." The kids who DO care are being pushed aside to focus on the ones who can't speak English, have IEPs,or have behavior issues (or all of the above). It pisses me off. And it pisses the teachers off too. But if we say WHY Derby HS is starting to fail, it's racist.

Check your privilege white girl.

 

[Troglodyte]

Be very careful there with the assumption that it's all areas of PA. It all depends on where you are talking about. Your father in law had to work in a very wealthy district to get that kind of deal.

Penn Hills. Maybe wealthy in that they used to have a lot of residents (classes of 800 kids) but not per capital. The district is now a lot smaller and is in serious financial trouble (after they built a state of the art high school).

I do know of a school administrator in wealthy district that retired after 25 years with benefits and 80% of her last year's income. Something has to give.

 

[Yinzerlyn]

Check your privilege white girl.

**** that. There is no privilege in teaching those kids. Yeah, I said it.

 

[Ron Burgundy]

I do know of a school administrator in wealthy district that retired after 25 years with benefits and 80% of her last year's income. Something has to give.

No time soon. Teachers have incredible pensions and benefits encoded in the state pension system thanks to former Democrat governor Fast Eddie Rendell in exchange for votes and campaign contributions.

 

[steel dino]

No time soon. Teachers have incredible pensions and benefits encoded in the state pension system thanks to former Democrat governor Fast Eddie Rendell in exchange for votes and campaign contributions.

And most educators deserve every penny and benefits they can get..

This board has always demonized teachers as a whole...when in reality the teaching profession is no different than any other profession, when it come down to competency.

The majority of any profession workers are fully competent and capable, and are adding value...there will always be a minority in any profession that are incompetent and not adding full value....

The teaching profession is one of the most important and critical professions that this nation has...and year after year we lose excellent educators and mentors of our children (whether you want to believe teachers are mentors or not) due to how they are mis-treated verbally and at times physically abused, by students and asinine PARENTS, and well as being under compensated.

Instead about gripping about the little money they make...why not start looking at ways of attracting our highly intelligent capable young people into a profession, that is having trouble soliciting young people with those characteristics, mainly due to better paying and more appreciated professions...

Our country is dying and turning into a nation of under educated, less intelligent, less skilled citizenry as compared to our "competitors" like Canada, Germany, China, Japan, etc..
It all starts with our children education folks....and we are falling way behind other developed nations, which if continues for another 20 years of this...will turn this country into a nation full of in capable, non-skilled idiots.

But lets all keep bitching and moaning that some teachers might make $60k a year (GOD FORBID!!) or acquire a decent and well deserved retirement package after many years of dedicated service to our communities and children.

 

[ZonaBurgh]

But lets all keep bitching and moaning that some teachers might make $60k a year (GOD FORBID!!) or acquire a decent and well deserved retirement package after many years of dedicated service to our communities and children.

Well, if you insist......I agree teachers have a tough job with their hands tied with policies that eliminate discipline of the little darlings, and earn every bit of their salary. But if what Burgundy says is true, and this is the internet so it has to be, retiring with over a million in pension funds isn't shabby.
Seriously, who has that much in a pension? For that matter, who works for anyone that still offers a pension? Is this just PA?

 

[Supersteeler]

Well, if you insist......I agree teachers have a tough job with their hands tied with policies that eliminate discipline of the little darlings, and earn every bit of their salary. But if what Burgundy says is true, and this is the internet so it has to be, retiring with over a million in pension funds isn't shabby.
Seriously, who has that much in a pension? For that matter, who works for anyone that still offers a pension? Is this just PA?

I'm sorry but it's complete horseshit. I'm IN THE PROFESSION and I can tell you a million dollar pension is a completely ludicrous number. Sorry, Ron is a good dude but I have to call BS on this one. Not saying that guy he mentioned didn't make that much (although for the life of me I cannot figure out how or what the hell he was doing to earn that much). But to think that those numbers are what teachers get when they retire is nuts.

EDIT: Ok, I just searched the average teacher pension in every state in the country. The HIGHEST I saw? Ohio $46,000. For Christ's sake, the average pension for PA is $24,000! Please stop buying into the anti teacher political nonsense that people go on about with no factual basis. Most of it is rhetoric. Outside of very wealthy economic areas, teachers aren't making nearly as much as people seem to believe. The good health benefits are usually meant to offset the mediocre salary, at least for the first handful of years. At least it was where I worked when I started at $21,000.

Here is the link to the average pensions,

https://www.teacherpensions.org/blog/what-average-teacher-pension-my-state

I re-reading the story, I see that the link is from a Pro Education article that is making the case that teacher's pensions are unfairly low, it was the first link I came across. I will search to see I can confirm that from another source.

 

[Supersteeler]

Ok, so I found another source that confirms that those numbers are correct or at least ballpark. The PA average pension upon retirement falls between $21,000 - $35,000. The other states pretty much also mirror what the first article stated I also saw this fact in this second article (which seems to be fairly impartial). In 35 out of 50 states, the pension amount for teachers is LESS than average compared to other jobs which require a college degree. No wonder people don't like teachers if they believe this stuff that they are all retiring as millionaires. If only! Education has become a political firing pin and information gets completely misconstrued and exaggerated when politics are involved. Hyperbole wins the day. All I want to know is If I'm supposed to get a million dollar pension, what they hell are they doing with my other $950,000 that won't be coming to me lol

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/brown-center-chalkboard/2016/09/29/pension-puzzles-part-i/

 

[Ron Burgundy]

Well, if you insist......I agree teachers have a tough job with their hands tied with policies that eliminate discipline of the little darlings, and earn every bit of their salary. But if what Burgundy says is true, and this is the internet so it has to be, retiring with over a million in pension funds isn't shabby.
Seriously, who has that much in a pension? For that matter, who works for anyone that still offers a pension? Is this just PA?

I didn't mean she gets a million dollars a year, I meant that's what she has in her fund, like 401k or 403b or whatever fund it is that teachers get. Just going by what she told me.
I'm not disputing what teachers get paid. What I have a problem with is ALL public employee unions because they have a conflict of interest that harms the taxpayer. Their unions will work for and donate money to politicians, almost always Democrats, who will then reward said unions with more money and benefits. Government employees should not be allowed to unionize. In fact, that's only been a thing since 1963 when JFK signed an executive order allowing it.

 

[Supersteeler]

I didn't mean she gets a million dollars a year, I meant that's what she has in her fund, like 401k or 403b or whatever fund it is that teachers get. Just going by what she told me.
I'm not disputing what teachers get paid. What I have a problem with is ALL public employee unions because they have a conflict of interest that harms the taxpayer. Their unions will work for and donate money to politicians, almost always Democrats, who will then reward said unions with more money and benefits. Government employees should not be allowed to unionize. In fact, that's only been a thing since 1963 when JFK signed an executive order allowing it.

That is still an unreal number. She had to have accumulated that money another way in addition to her regular pension, that is the only possibility I can think of. Maybe she invested her pension money in something along the way. I'm not a fan of the union's political leanings for sure even though I'm included in the Union. They don't force you to vote for anyone but will usually put out a list of "preferred candidates....which are always Democrats naturally. It's up to you who you vote for in the end. I voted for Trump and I know of some other teachers who did also, so it doesn't necessarily bleed over into my life outside of work. If Unions are rewarded financially for voting for certain candidates it happens at the State or National level and not local. I've not heard or seen anything like that. The local unions are made up of teachers in that district only.

Most teachers don't need the union if they are doing what they are supposed to do. It's more of a checks and balances thing because if you do wind up with a maniac for a Principal or Superintendent, you damn well better have a good union. I've had 4 different Principals in my 14 year career. 2 of them were stark raving lunatics and 1 was just a complete *******. All 3 had the "If you dare disagree with me, your life will be a complete hell as long as you are here" complex. The problem is that the **** they would want you to do might not be exactly appropriate or in some cases legal. If you don't do it, they will stick it to you if nobody steps in on your behalf.

One of those Principals got pissed at a couple teachers one year and wanted me to start walking by their rooms to spy on them and then report to him what they were doing at various times during the day (aka not walking around the room enough while teaching, passing out too many work sheets, etc.), so he could try and get them later. I refused....mostly because they were friends of mine, but also because it was all bullshit. He ultimately knew what he asked me to do was inappropriate so he didn't push the issue when I wouldn't do it but for the rest of the school year (before he got fired) he sure stuck me with every **** job he could think of and hounded me almost daily. Luckily I wasn't on the receiving end too many other times but I saw what they did to some of the other staff and it was disgusting. Thankfully the union stepped in on those peoples' behalf and let the Administrator know that carrying out personal vendetta's is not a professional way to run a building.

Unions are a necessary evil in situations like that. The other situation is when Joe Fuckwad walks in off the street and says that a teacher punched or inappropriately touched his son when in reality he's pissed that his son got suspended for being a dick to somebody and now has to sit out a football game. Sometimes the union is the only thing standing in the way of that teacher being completely screwed. That being said no union should ever protect a teacher if they act inappropriately of course. I have to say that in both schools I was in, the union's position when a teacher went completely over the line with something they said or did was basically, "You are an idiot and we can't do anything for you". Luckily there's never been anything horrific, usually just the occasional teacher losing it on some disrespectful teenager and cussing at them in the heat of the moment.

 

[Spike]

Who would want to live in Canada anyway?



Canadian Man Takes Gun from Home Invaders – Charged with Attempted Murder and Nine Other Crimes

In what is surely an attempt by the Canadian state to make people fear the very idea of defending themselves and their families, a man has been charged with attempted murder after wrestling a gun from one of three armed home invaders and shooting one of them (non-life threatening injury).

Why is it that Canada (and other nations) are so determined to ensure that the population is unable to adequately protect themselves? Kyle Earl Munroe was at home with a friend when three armed intruders entered his home, he and the other man struggled with the intruders, Munroe managed to get a gun from one of the intruders, shots were fired and one of the intruders was hit. Munroe has now been charged with:

Attempted murder, intent to discharge a firearm, intent to discharge a firearm when being reckless, careless use of a firearm, improper storage of a firearm, pointing a firearm, possession of a weapon for a dangerous purpose, unauthorized possession of a firearm, possession of a firearm knowing that possession is unauthorized, and possession for the purpose of trafficking.

http://investmentwatchblog.com/cana...-with-attempted-murder-and-nine-other-crimes/

 

[MTC]

Our school district grandfathered in an area of Wichita that is economically depressed and majority Hispanic. Why? Because the school district (without Wichita) was too WHITE. This happened about 5-6 years ago, and since then, the quality of the education has gone down substantially. Lots of gang activity, drugs, poor test scores, and now our HS (which used to be in the top 5% of the HS in KS) is now a Title 1 school and now the whole district qualifies for free and reduced lunches. All in the name of "equality." The kids who DO care are being pushed aside to focus on the ones who can't speak English, have IEPs,or have behavior issues (or all of the above). It pisses me off. And it pisses the teachers off too. But if we say WHY Derby HS is starting to fail, it's racist.

Gang activity was highly active when I was in high school. First day of school my junior year, we made the 10pm news for having 16 fights in one lunch period. There were like three rival gangs just duking it out. Lol.

I went to a high school where my math teacher couldn't teach due to disobedient students, my physics teacher got shot by a paintball gun(right in the throat), the Principal turned away from the atmosphere and hid behind his words that "We are family".

Most students by senior year, rallied for community pride and school spirit, although not a big fan of school spirit. It was nice to see things die down a bit. Although off campus was another story. I live 10 minutes away from my old high school now. The atmosphere is worse than ever.

Two kids in a subdivision down got gunned down by some gang bangers. Tower/Pond park has some crazy mexican gang activity every night.
I went for a jog there last year when some kid got shot. Saw the whole thing. It was crazy.

That culture is the norm in inner city schools. It's all up bringing. The parents do not give a
**** either. I live around it and sometimes interract with it on a daily basis.

 

[steel dino]

Gang activity was highly active when I was in high school. First day of school my junior year, we made the 10pm news for having 16 fights in one lunch period. There were like three rival gangs just duking it out. Lol.

I went to a high school where my math teacher couldn't teach due to disobedient students, my physics teacher got shot by a paintball gun(right in the throat), the Principal turned away from the atmosphere and hid behind his words that "We are family".

Most students by senior year, rallied for community pride and school spirit, although not a big fan of school spirit. It was nice to see things die down a bit. Although off campus was another story. I live 10 minutes away from my old high school now. The atmosphere is worse than ever.

Two kids in a subdivision down got gunned down by some gang bangers. Tower/Pond park has some crazy mexican gang activity every night.
I went for a jog there last year when some kid got shot. Saw the whole thing. It was crazy.

That culture is the norm in inner city schools. It's all up bringing. The parents do not give a
**** either. I live around it and sometimes interract with it on a daily basis.

What college degreed person in their right mind would want to attempt to teach in that environment for $40 to 45k a year salary!..

I went to a City of Pittsburgh high school and seen some horrible displays of behavior, which teachers had to deal with every day..and that was a lone time ago...
I can only imagine how bad it is today!

Well---I do know...my oldest daughter was a high school science teacher...she is still in education but writes science curriculum for a different county in in different state now..

In fact---she started after school programs in the Clark County (Vegas) school system for kids that had nothing but bad to go home to, when she first graduated from college...
She did it on her own time..with little to almost no extra money for doing it.She actually was honored by the county for doing that, and loved by some very under privileged children..
But it didn't end well and the county cut after school funds, and she became disenchanted despite her good intentions and moved on...
They lost a great teacher and a better person.

Were losing folks..

It would be wise for us to not politicize this, and do whats right for the nation, regardless of your feelings about democrats and/or unions..

Just ones mans opinion.

 

[SteelerInLebanon]

Here is the average salaries for teachers where I live in in Ohio. This is damn good money for what they do and being in a mostly white middle class community. Our schools are ranked about 60th out of 600+ school districts in Ohio and we spend in the bottom 20% in dollars per student. I have no problem paying good teachers a good salary I have a real problem with the Unions protecting bad teachers and some of our highest paid are the worst teachers. I have a friend form high School who coaches and teaches PE back at the school we graduated from that is making over $70,000 as a PE teacher!

Lebanon City School District Teacher Salary Details
Average Salary Salary Range
Middle School Teacher $59,840 $38,800 - $87,080
High School Teacher $57,100 $36,480 - $80,130
PE Teacher $33,110 $17,400 - $59,340
Teaching Assistant $26,390 $18,110 - $36,340

 

[Supersteeler]

. I have a friend form high School who coaches and teaches PE back at the school we graduated from that is making over $70,000 as a PE teacher!

Well agree or disagree, when you have a salary/tenure scale, the subject being taught is completely irrelevant to salary. Whether it's PE or Chemistry, a 30 year teacher is going to make a 30 year teacher salary, that's just how it is. You can't tell someone who works the same hours and does the same type of job as the guy/gal next to them, "Hey buddy, you teach the wrong class, you aren't going to make as much as him or her."

Yeah I agree that it is a problem when teachers who should be retired hang around too long because they reached the top of the pay scale and may no longer be effective in the classroom. Ask any teacher worth their salt and they will agree with that. It's a common thing. How do you get rid of them though, forced retirement? I don't really know but that part is a legitimate concern that happens in schools everywhere. Trust me, all the other teachers are looking at them and wishing they would hang it up too.

 

[SteelerInLebanon]

Well agree or disagree, when you have a salary/tenure scale, the subject being taught is completely irrelevant to salary. Whether it's PE or Chemistry, a 30 year teacher is going to make the same amount, that's just how it is. Yeah it is a bit of a problem when teachers who should be retired hang around too long because they reached the top of the pay scale and may no longer be effective teachers. Ask any teacher worth their salt and they will agree with that. How do you get rid of them, forced retirement? I don't really know but that part is a legitimate concern that happens in schools everywhere.

But that is the problem with unions. It should not be an across the board scale. A physics teacher should get paid more than a PE teacher. A great young teacher should be rewarded with a better salary for being great.


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[Supersteeler]

But that is the problem with unions. It should not be an across the board scale. A physics teacher should get paid more than a PE teacher. A great young teacher should be rewarded with a better salary for being great.


Sent from my iPhone using Steeler Nation mobile app

I disagree. I think it's a good thing. What if it is a great PE teacher that inspires kids to get physically fit? Secondly I don't know how you make the cutoff to determine what a great teacher is and where greatness starts. It has to be something measurable. What defines greatness? Passing grades? Standardized test scores? Hell, I could make the argument that kids today need PE every bit as much as they need Physics.

 

[SteelerFan448]

Here is the average salaries for teachers where I live in in Ohio. This is damn good money for what they do and being in a mostly white middle class community. Our schools are ranked about 60th out of 600+ school districts in Ohio and we spend in the bottom 20% in dollars per student. I have no problem paying good teachers a good salary I have a real problem with the Unions protecting bad teachers and some of our highest paid are the worst teachers. I have a friend form high School who coaches and teaches PE back at the school we graduated from that is making over $70,000 as a PE teacher!

I think way too much is being made of Unions protecting bad teachers. As Supersteeler already said, when it comes do employees doing really dumb things, Unions will basically say "sorry, we can't do anything for you." You also need to apply a standard for the bad administrators out there who may have it out for certain people--again, as Supersteeler highlighted. Does that mean that some "bad teachers" are protected? Definitely, but there is still a process if they are ineffective. I also really don't think there are as many bad teachers as some people think there are.

Well agree or disagree, when you have a salary/tenure scale, the subject being taught is completely irrelevant to salary. Whether it's PE or Chemistry, a 30 year teacher is going to make a 30 year teacher salary, that's just how it is. You can't tell someone who works the same hours and does the same type of job as the guy/gal next to them, "Hey buddy, you teach the wrong class, you aren't going to make as much as him or her."

But that is the problem with unions. It should not be an across the board scale. A physics teacher should get paid more than a PE teacher. A great young teacher should be rewarded with a better salary for being great.

Yes, it is what it is when it comes to subject area. In the end, if you look at all of the salaries like a salary cap in football, it is the same end result for the taxpayers. If you value a state test subject like biology more and they make $100,000 and a PE teacher $40,000, the end result is still $140,000. Now I can understand an argument to get higher qualified candidates in the sciences, offering a higher pay would be an incentive. That would help pull excellent candidates from going into industry or research. With how things are now, if it wasn't for unions the salaries would be low and/or there would be no raises, making it a less desirable career option for some a limit the pool of candidates. Extracurricular activities would disappear as board would drastically reduce or eliminate pay for coaches and sponsors for activities.

 

[steel dino]

Here is the average salaries for teachers where I live in in Ohio. This is damn good money for what they do and being in a mostly white middle class community. Our schools are ranked about 60th out of 600+ school districts in Ohio and we spend in the bottom 20% in dollars per student. I have no problem paying good teachers a good salary I have a real problem with the Unions protecting bad teachers and some of our highest paid are the worst teachers. I have a friend form high School who coaches and teaches PE back at the school we graduated from that is making over $70,000 as a PE teacher!

Lebanon City School District Teacher Salary Details
Average Salary Salary Range
Middle School Teacher $59,840 $38,800 - $87,080
High School Teacher $57,100 $36,480 - $80,130
PE Teacher $33,110 $17,400 - $59,340
Teaching Assistant $26,390 $18,110 - $36,340

That seems excessive to you?

No offense ...but $55m aint nothing to write home about...and that is for a longer tenured teacher Im sure..

Especially for a job that provides such an importance service to our family's and communities...

 

[steel dino]

But that is the problem with unions. It should not be an across the board scale. A physics teacher should get paid more than a PE teacher. A great young teacher should be rewarded with a better salary for being great.


Sent from my iPhone using Steeler Nation mobile app

Disagree...this is not a "union" problem..

It happens in non-union jobs also...

It happens were I work...it happens in law enforcement...etc..etc...

Longer tenured workers make on average more than lower tenured..

Pay for performance is usually the fix for tenure pay scale inequities...
But it is very, very hard to implement and to fairly manage..no matter the profession.

 

[SteelerFan448]

I disagree. I think it's a good thing. What if it is a great PE teacher that inspires kids to get physically fit? Secondly I don't know how you make the cutoff to determine what a great teacher is and where greatness starts. It has to be something measurable. What defines greatness? Passing grades? Standardized test scores? Hell, I could make the argument that kids today need PE every bit as much as they need Physics.

Good post. Regarding young vs. experienced teachers. What if a young teacher comes in and gets an Honors/AP course while a veteran is teaching students who hate school? Do you pay the younger one more only because they have better grades while the veteran one has an arguably tougher job? Very difficult to quantify the effectiveness when there are so many variables just as it is difficult to place a value on one subject over another when you have students who love the sciences while others may want a future in the arts.

 

[SteelerInLebanon]

That seems excessive to you?

No offense ...but $55m aint nothing to write home about...and that is for a longer tenured teacher Im sure..

Especially for a job that provides such an importance service to our family's and communities...

Where did I say it was excessive?
It is a good wage was my point not something to complain about. My beef is, who is getting more and it is not always the better teachers. I do agree, it is hard to find a good way to judge teachers for merit pay, but I would like to see us try unfortunately the unions stand in the way of any kind of creative out of the box system.

 

[Supersteeler]

Where did I say it was excessive?
It is a good wage was my point not something to complain about. My beef is, who is getting more and it is not always the better teachers. I do agree, it is hard to find a good way to judge teachers for merit pay, but I would like to see us try unfortunately the unions stand in the way of any kind of creative out of the box system.

And thank goodness the unions do block that. As 448 and Dino are saying, what about the poor sap teacher that has a remedial class with a lot of special ed students who may hate school altogether and/or severe behavior kids who refuse to follow any directions and make their lives miserable? They would be screwed when pay day comes, that's for sure because their kids aren't outperforming anybody, but that doesn't mean they are any less valuable as a teacher.

Who would be dumb enough to teach those classes in a merit pay setup, knowing they would always be on the very bottom of the merit pay scale due to their class' performance, not to mention have a job that's 10 times harder than the Physics teacher who has a cakewalk day teaching to the best of the best behaved and motivated kids in the building? You wouldn't be able to find anyone crazy enough to put up with that for less pay than somebody who teaches advanced classes but hardly ever deals with discipline issues. There's a reason for the unwritten rule in schools that all faculty members know. You don't piss off your special ed teachers because they are dealing with the problems that nobody else wants to every day.

Not a workable system.