School Choice Works in Canada

[SteelerInLebanon]

And thank goodness the unions do block that. As 448 and Dino are saying, what about the poor sap teacher that has a remedial class with a lot of special ed students who may hate school altogether and/or severe behavior kids who refuse to follow any directions and make their lives miserable? They would be screwed when pay day comes, that's for sure because their kids aren't outperforming anybody, but that doesn't mean they are any less valuable as a teacher.

Who would be dumb enough to teach those classes in a merit pay setup, knowing they would always be on the very bottom of the merit pay scale due to their class' performance, not to mention have a job that's 10 times harder than the Physics teacher who has a cakewalk day teaching to the best of the best behaved and motivated kids in the building? You wouldn't be able to find anyone crazy enough to put up with that for less pay than somebody who teaches advanced classes but hardly ever deals with discipline issues. There's a reason for the unwritten rule in schools that all faculty members know. You don't piss off your special ed teachers because they are dealing with the problems that nobody else wants to every day.

Not a workable system.

You are missing my point on merit pay. We need to come up with a way to judge Teachers on how well they teach and pay them accordingly that does not mean i want a situation like you describe. I want it to be more than grades or test scores but effort and commitment to their job some how measured for these teachers. The Unions are the problem because they stifle innovation and reward mediocrity.

 

[Supersteeler]

You are missing my point on merit pay. We need to come up with a way to judge Teachers on how well they teach and pay them accordingly that does not mean i want a situation like you describe. I want it to be more than grades or test scores but effort and commitment to their job some how measured for these teachers. The Unions are the problem because they stifle innovation and reward mediocrity.

I just don't see it as a possibility. If there isn't a measurable way to judge merit pay, then it's just going to be a favoritism game. Every teacher is in the classroom at the same time from 8:00 to 3:00 or whenever. Every teacher is in front of their classroom every instructing every day. Every teacher is preparing classroom lessons during their plan period. How do you choose? I don't see how you could pick and choose on whose worthy and who is not without having something measurable. You can't ask the kids, you can't look at test scores (because of the scenario I already mentioned) you can't base it off of grades, attendance, behaviors, etc (same scenario). Since there is no reliable way to make that judgement, what you have is a popularity contest where the person who kisses their Principal's *** the most is going to get the best merit pay. I would hope the union would tear that system apart in two seconds.

 

[SteelerInLebanon]

I just don't see it as a possibility. If there isn't a measurable way to judge merit pay, then it's just going to be a favoritism game. Every teacher is in the classroom at the same time from 8:00 to 3:00 or whenever. Every teacher is in front of their classroom every instructing every day. Every teacher is preparing classroom lessons during their plan period. How do you choose? I don't see how you could pick and choose on whose worthy and who is not without having something measurable. You can't ask the kids, you can't look at test scores (because of the scenario I already mentioned) you can't base it off of grades, attendance, behaviors, etc (same scenario). Since there is no reliable way to make that judgement, what you have is a popularity contest where the person who kisses their Principal's *** the most is going to get the best merit pay. I would hope the union would tear that system apart in two seconds.

So says the Union. I disagree. With proper observation and monitoring in conjunction with more normal methods we should be able to come up with something. First off their should NEVER be a public union that can extort the voters for money. They are not able to truly negotiate in good faith with an equal partner like a private union. I gave up teaching as I refused to be part of such a corrupt system. Parents, Teachers and our Government are failing our kids in many schools and the unions have made all Education a bastion of liberal think. School choice and more freedom to decide where we spend our tax dollars would go a long way to ending his corrupt monopoly held by public unions.


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[Supersteeler]

So says the Union. I disagree. With proper observation and monitoring in conjunction with more normal methods we should be able to come up with something. First off their should NEVER be a public union that can extort the voters for money. They are not able to truly negotiate in good faith with an equal partner like a private union. I gave up teaching as I refused to be part of such a corrupt system. Parents, Teachers and our Government are failing our kids in many schools and the unions have made all Education a bastion of liberal think. School choice and more freedom to decide where we spend our tax dollars would go a long way to ending his corrupt monopoly held by public unions.


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Sigh, I understand better now. You have some ill feelings based on your experiences in education so I see where you would be coming from. However, I think we are discussing apples and oranges here. It was a good discussion though.

 

[tapeANaspirin2it]

Our school district grandfathered in an area of Wichita that is economically depressed and majority Hispanic. Why? Because the school district (without Wichita) was too WHITE. This happened about 5-6 years ago, and since then, the quality of the education has gone down substantially. Lots of gang activity, drugs, poor test scores, and now our HS (which used to be in the top 5% of the HS in KS) is now a Title 1 school and now the whole district qualifies for free and reduced lunches. All in the name of "equality." The kids who DO care are being pushed aside to focus on the ones who can't speak English, have IEPs,or have behavior issues (or all of the above). It pisses me off. And it pisses the teachers off too. But if we say WHY Derby HS is starting to fail, it's racist.

you just described a huge success story to liberals. All they care about is that things are "even". Do they make things even by raising people up? Hell no, that's hard. Instead the do it by tearing people down. Bring down the good students so now the gap between them and the bad students isn't so big.

Then they say, you see that, the bad students are doing so much better now compared to others. You're welcome.

 

[tapeANaspirin2it]

The first thing that has to change is teachers retiring after 20 or 25 years, It's bullshit that somebody can retire by age 50 and draw a pension for longer than they actually worked in many cases.

The best and most experienced teachers are sitting home collecting checks. Make the retirement age 65 like everybody else.

 

[Supersteeler]

The first thing that has to change is teachers retiring after 20 or 25 years, It's bullshit that somebody can retire by age 50 and draw a pension for longer than they actually worked in many cases.

The best and most experienced teachers are sitting home collecting checks. Make the retirement age 65 like everybody else.

Teachers still do that? I've never worked with one that retired before they were in their 60's in Ohio or PA. I'm 41 right now and 14 years in and I am AT LEAST 20 years away still.

 

[Yinzerlyn]

you just described a huge success story to liberals. All they care about is that things are "even". Do they make things even by raising people up? Hell no, that's hard. Instead the do it by tearing people down. Bring down the good students so now the gap between them and the bad students isn't so big.

Then they say, you see that, the bad students are doing so much better now compared to others. You're welcome.

It's ridiculous. We have 3 ELL teachers in the school. All they do is sit in their classrooms and wait for kids who don't speak English well (and are authorized to see them) to come to them and ask for help. Those kids are allowed to leave class at any time to go see the ELL teachers, and in most cases, "asking for help" is going there to **** around. Each one of those teachers is required to mainstream teach ONE class and be inclusion in ONE class. (We are on a block schedule, so that's on 2 different days.) We also have ELL paras who go to inclusion classes and help. The requirements to be in an ELL class are so lax that an English speaking toddler can get in. One of my students (who graduated last year) qualified for ELL. Why? He's autistic, so he can't verbalize well, and at the time his mom filled out the paperwork, she was dating a guy from Puerto Rico. The question reads "Does anyone in your home speak a language other than English?" She answered yes. The students have to prove an increased proficiency in English to get out of the program. Well, my kiddo never did because of his autism, so he was in ELL. They never follow up on the family life, just on the kids' English skills.
They also offer (TO HISPANIC SPANISH SPEAKING STUDENTS ONLY) a "Spanish for fluency class." The kids GET FOREIGN LANGUAGE CREDIT FOR TAKING THEIR NATIVE LANGUAGE. I cannot make this **** up. The district also has 2 middle schools. The kids from that area SHOULD be going to one middle school, but in the name of diversity, are bussed to both schools. Because of that, kids who live right next to their middle school have to be bussed to the other one to keep it fair. So now kids can't even go to their neighborhood school.

Look- I'm not against other cultures and people getting educations. What I am against is forced diversity, teaching "tolerance," and watching bright kids suffer because of stupid bullshit liberal policies. The admin's hands are tied. The teachers and para's hands are tied. The parents who DO give a **** are overruled to keep "equality."

 

[Ron Burgundy]

Teachers still do that? I've never worked with one that retired before they were in their 60's in Ohio or PA. I'm 41 right now and 14 years in and I am AT LEAST 20 years away still.

In PA you don't HAVE to retire at 53 but there is a formula of your age and years of service that will allow you to retire early. I think the minimum is 20 or 25 years, Teachers don't mind retiring on almost full salary and the schools don't mind having their salaries off the books and hiring someone new for $15k or $20k less.

 

[Supersteeler]

In PA you don't HAVE to retire at 53 but there is a formula of your age and years of service that will allow you to retire early. I think the minimum is 20 or 25 years, Teachers don't mind retiring on almost full salary and the schools don't mind having their salaries off the books and hiring someone new for $15k or $20k less.

Damn. All I know is I have been in education for a decade and a half and we are very much still living from paycheck to paycheck. My wife also works full time and has a good job. And our family's style of living sure hasn't changed. For the first 5 years we were using credit cards to buy groceries, not to mention all the kids' Christmas and Birthday gifts. We were thrilled as hell if we could afford to pay the bills on time. As of today we have enough to pay the bills and get groceries and are trying to get out from under that credit card debt. We haven't used one in about 7 years but it will be awhile yet before they are paid off. If we go on vacation or a major appliance breaks, we wipe out what money we have in the savings account and start over. My *** isn't retiring form anything in my 50's trust me.

 

[Spike]

Are grade school teachers required to do genital checks on students now?


Transgender 8-Year-Old Sues School for ‘Emotional Distress’

The family of an 8-year-old transgender girl is suing the child’s private school for “intentional infliction of emotional distress,” among other charges, after the school allegedly refused to use her female name and pronoun and also barred her from using the girls’ restroom and from wearing a girls’ school uniform.

“When any adult says to a child, ‘You may not live according to your gender identity,’ that is serious emotional distress,” Mark Rosenbaum, a lawyer for plaintiff Nicole Brar and her parents, Priya Shah and Jaspret Brar, tells Yahoo Beauty. “There isn’t anything more heartless in the world than telling a child ‘do not follow your heart.’”

The lawsuit, filed in the Superior Court of California, Orange County, on Aug. 2, seeks appropriate compensatory damages yet to be determined as well as a policy change regarding gender at the Heritage Oak Private Education in Yorba Linda, where Nicole was withdrawn halfway through the most recent school year in favor of homeschooling; she will be enrolled in public school this fall and is also under the care of a therapist, says Rosenbaum.

https://www.yahoo.com/beauty/transg...vate-school-emotional-distress-174528440.html

 

[oneforthebus]

Canada 15.3% Asian
1.5% Hispanic
2.9% Black

US 5.6% Asian
17% Hispanic
12.3% Black

Now, some will call me racist of course and nobody wants to talk about this, but it is simply a fact that there are statistically overperforming and underperforming racial demographics, in both the US and Canada. Canada has a much larger proportion of the former and a much smaller proportion of the latter. We can argue and debate why these groups have historically overperformed and underperformed, part of the blame is in our education system no doubt, but without controlling for those demographics you can't say that Canada's school system is doing better than ours.

Anyway, if migrants now think Canada is a better choice for a college education, good. College admissions here have gotten way too competitive, the fewer international students, the more available spots for talented American kids who are often shut out in the name of diversity. .

 

[oneforthebus]

In 35 out of 50 states, the pension amount for teachers is LESS than average compared to other jobs which require a college degree.

Pension? What is that? My husband has a master's degree and the only "pension" he's ever had at a wide variety of jobs is the money we've saved ourselves. Once upon a time employers used to match that, at least in part. No more.

Never had a single job that offered a pension.

 

[SteelerInLebanon]

Sigh, I understand better now. You have some ill feelings based on your experiences in education so I see where you would be coming from. However, I think we are discussing apples and oranges here. It was a good discussion though.

I left Education before I got out of college. The lack of parenting, the Union and many other factors went into my decision to change my career path. I just wish we would find better ways to educate our children. My worst and best experiences in Education have come as an engaged parent with a child who is twice exceptional. He has had some wonderful teachers who have made school an awsome experiences by taking the time to get to know him. Almost everyone has been a lower paid younger teacher. He has had some horrible experiences and most but not all have been older teachers at the upper end on the pay range. We have worked very hard to communicate with his teachers about his Tourette's issues and how to work with him, he has a 504b plan and is brilliant. That is my experience with education.

Here is gratuitous proud parent picture from today. Mine is the smiling blond #52 kneeling in the middle

 

[Supersteeler]

I left Education before I got out of college. The lack of parenting, the Union and many other factors went into my decision to change my career path. I just wish we would find better ways to educate our children. My worst and best experiences in Education have come as an engaged parent with a child who is twice exceptional. He has had some wonderful teachers who have made school an awsome experiences by taking the time to get to know him. Almost everyone has been a lower paid younger teacher. He has had some horrible experiences and most but not all have been older teachers at the upper end on the pay range. We have worked very hard to communicate with his teachers about his Tourette's issues and how to work with him, he has a 504b plan and is brilliant. That is my experience with education.

Here is gratuitous proud parent picture from today. Mine is the smiling blond #52 kneeling in the middle
View attachment 3535

Good lookin kid. I'm glad you have had some good teachers that met his needs. As I said before you will get no argument from me that a lot of older teachers need to retire. And yes it makes sense that younger teachers who went to college more recently are more adaptable and knowledgeable of current trends and technology. But I don't see a problem with those new teachers paying their dues and working their way up the salary scale. I think that's how it should be. Maybe that's just because I went through starting at the bottom already lol.

 

[Supersteeler]

Pension? What is that? My husband has a master's degree and the only "pension" he's ever had at a wide variety of jobs is the money we've saved ourselves. Once upon a time employers used to match that, at least in part. No more.

Never had a single job that offered a pension.

Umm I think most jobs have a retirement pension. My Mom worked for the city water treatment plant and got a retirement pension. My Dad worked in a bakery and got a retirement pension. My Uncles who all worked in the coal mine got retirement pensions.

 

[Ironcitysteelers]

Umm I think most jobs have a retirement pension. My Mom worked for the city water treatment plant and got a retirement pension. My Dad worked in a bakery and got a retirement pension. My Uncles who all worked in the coal mine got retirement pensions.

Nope. My mom didn't, my father didn't. I won't. Whatcha pension. Lol.

 

[Supersteeler]

Nope. My mom didn't, my father didn't. I won't. Whatcha pension. Lol.

Hmmm didn't realize that. Well on behalf of educators everywhere, I apologize to you all that I complained about not getting the legendary million dollar pension.

 

[Steeltime]

Hmmm didn't realize that. Well on behalf of educators everywhere, I apologize to you all that I complained about not getting the legendary million dollar pension.

My employer and I fund my pension. Fortunately, I have an amazing employer who matches my 401k contributions dollar-for-dollar.

Being self-employed allows that approach. I contribute 25% of my wages to the 401k, employer corporation matches, and I wind up putting 40% of my earnings into the 401k since my 25% plus employer matching works out to 40%.

 

[oneforthebus]

Umm I think most jobs have a retirement pension. My Mom worked for the city water treatment plant and got a retirement pension. My Dad worked in a bakery and got a retirement pension. My Uncles who all worked in the coal mine got retirement pensions.

Your mom-government job=pension.
Your uncles-union job=pension.
Your dad-bakery-that's an anomaly. Large commercial bakery? Union? Ok, pension. If he worked for your average bakery today he'd be hard pressed to even get full time hours let alone health benefits or pension.

The original post compared teachers' pensions to other college educated people who reported earning a pension. That is the exception, not the rule these days. Union jobs have pensions. Government jobs have pensions. The rest of us largely fund our own retirements, although there are some large corporations who still match employee 401K contributions.

The point is, teachers complain constantly about being underpaid but when you add up benefits and hours not worked many are compensated quite handsomely.

Consider my kids' band director, who adds on a band director stipend and a musical director stipend and a department head stipend to his salary, and will retire at 55 with 85% of that final year's pay (including all of the stipends) as his pension...for life. Along with nearly free health insurance. Not a bad deal.

Again, we fund every penny of our own retirement. Along with the outrageous property taxes we pay to fund his.

 

[Yinzerlyn]

Here in KS, to be a SpEd teacher, you MUST begin your Master's degree program within 3 years of graduating college. I think you have to complete it within 5 years of graduating. A lot of these teachers are first or second year teachers, and they have to pay for the degree themselves while still paying off their student loans from the first degree. They aren't compensated for it, and they can't move up the pay scale until their degree is complete. Is this the norm for every state, or is KS just overboard?

 

[Supersteeler]

Your mom-government job=pension.
Your uncles-union job=pension.
Your dad-bakery-that's an anomaly. Large commercial bakery? Union? Ok, pension. If he worked for your average bakery today he'd be hard pressed to even get full time hours let alone health benefits or pension.

The original post compared teachers' pensions to other college educated people who reported earning a pension. That is the exception, not the rule these days. Union jobs have pensions. Government jobs have pensions. The rest of us largely fund our own retirements, although there are some large corporations who still match employee 401K contributions.

The point is, teachers complain constantly about being underpaid but when you add up benefits and hours not worked many are compensated quite handsomely.

Consider my kids' band director, who adds on a band director stipend and a musical director stipend and a department head stipend to his salary, and will retire at 55 with 85% of that final year's pay (including all of the stipends) as his pension...for life. Along with nearly free health insurance. Not a bad deal.

Again, we fund every penny of our own retirement. Along with the outrageous property taxes we pay to fund his.

So should I quit my job or just forfeit my retirement to someone who doesn't get one? This stuff gets old. If teaching is such an easy street job and has this magnificent pay then why doesn't everyone do it? Nothing is stopping any one. Everyone who constantly complains about how teachers are basically stealing money, by all means, go back to school and get a teaching degree asap. It's a free country after all. People choose their own career paths and nobody else is responsible for their choices except themselves.

 

[ark steel]

My employer and I fund my pension. Fortunately, I have an amazing employer who matches my 401k contributions dollar-for-dollar.

Being self-employed allows that approach. I contribute 25% of my wages to the 401k, employer corporation matches, and I wind up putting 40% of my earnings into the 401k since my 25% plus employer matching works out to 40%.

If you are 50+, self-employed and regularly have net Schedule C income of over about 400k, you could be deducting way more on your taxes with a pension plan on top of your 401k.

Max out 401k. (18k? +6k catch up?). Something like $24k deferred. (or could do Roth to get it taxed now but no taxes later)
6% contribution as "profit Sharing" (this would, theoretically be 6% * 270,000 = 16,200).

$100k+ to your Pension Plan. Higher contributions the closer you are to 62/65.

you will have ~$140k+ income which you have saved for retirement and not paid current taxes on.

if you have an employee (or employees) you have to give them some contribution, too, but that is tax deductible. If the employees are way younger than you, the extra cost can be pretty minimal (i.e. 90%+ of the contributions go to you.

 

[ark steel]

Umm I think most jobs have a retirement pension. My Mom worked for the city water treatment plant and got a retirement pension. My Dad worked in a bakery and got a retirement pension. My Uncles who all worked in the coal mine got retirement pensions.

It is not true that most jobs provide a "pension". Most DO provide a retirement plan, but it is not a "pension". Government has made the "pension" to expensive to maintain and too difficult to administer. Plus, actuaries don't work cheap.

The flat rate PBGC premiums alone have skyrocketed from $19/participant a few years ago (less than 10, I think) to $69/participant this year. If the plan is underfunded (which has 3 or 4 different meanings for different government purposes) this has also skyrocketed. Think of a manufacturing plan which has 1,000 employees. The flat rate PBGC premium, along is $69,000 even if the plan is well funded. Now compare this with a 401k plan which has no PBGC coverage requirement and $0 PBGC premium. Which do you choose? When the premium was $19,000, the extra paternal instinct may keep the "pension" plan around.

These days you have 4 basic groups with "pension" plans:
Governments (state/local/federal) which don't have the funding/reporting/PBGC coverage requirements of private pension plans
Union employees (some are multiemployer plans, some single employer that has all union employees or, mostly)
Small organizations (Physicians/Attorneys), which have highly paid owners, some highly paid employees, but, mostly lower paid/younger employees
As noted in my other post, if the owner has income over $400k or so and Doesn't have a pension plan, they are paying way to much in taxes
Physicians/Attorneys (other "professionals") with under 25 participant don't have PBGC premiums.
Lingering plans: These are plans that used to be active, but became too expensive to continue and terminate. A lot of participants still in the plans, but no longer increasing their benefits (they were given 401k plans, instead). This plans linger on for years until they become small enough to be affordable to terminate.

In general, the government has ruined pensions and now, belabors, that 401k plans don't have annuity options. We had plans with annuity options and you killed them. The retirement plan industry is considered, by the government to be a tax expense, even though the vast majority of it is only tax deferral. When the government considers tax reform, often, the idea is to look at how much is being put into retirement plans by "the rich" and limit that to raise tax income. Part of what it does is convince the owners that what they are left to put in isn't worth making contributions to their employees, resulting in, surprise!, less going to employee retirements.

Oh, and let's not start on the idea that those government plans, often, let the person retire at ages well before 65 with FULL benefits. WAY more expensive to provide a 55 yo with $1k/month/life than a 65 yo. When you don't actually have to follow required contributions that private plans have to follow, it makes it easier to provide higher benefits in exchange for union negotiations or support of policy.

 

[oneforthebus]

So should I quit my job or just forfeit my retirement to someone who doesn't get one? This stuff gets old. If teaching is such an easy street job and has this magnificent pay then why doesn't everyone do it? Nothing is stopping any one. Everyone who constantly complains about how teachers are basically stealing money, by all means, go back to school and get a teaching degree asap. It's a free country after all. People choose their own career paths and nobody else is responsible for their choices except themselves.

No, I didn't say you should forfeit anything. I didn't even say teachers don't deserve what they make. And I'm certainly not complaining about my husband's compensation, he makes more than he ever would teaching. I'm just saying I get sick of teachers constantly complaining about how underpaid and underappreciated they are. Yes, it can be a tough job but there are a lot of perks to being a teacher, at least where we live. It must not be so terrible because we have about 1000 applicants for every open teaching job here.