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Tariffs

Does anyone realize that as a result of these horrific tariffs the Dow Jones is down 4% in value since the first of the month.
While I'm not certain, I believe that's worse than October of 1929..
 
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Does anyone realize that as a result of these horrific tariffs the Dow Jones in down 4% in value since the first of the month.
While I'm not certain, I believe that's worse than October of 1929..
Market is volatile due to the wild daily pronouncements.

Hopefully advisors have reigned in his wildest instincts and we can get some stability.
 
“His tariffs are great! He’s a genius!”
Market tanks.
“We need to experience pain for huge gains!”
Market tanks more.
“Ok we’re gonna drastically reduce the tariffs that were so brilliant they caused markets to tank!”
Market goes up.
“Wow the markets are only down a little bit! Tariffs are great!”
 
“His tariffs are great! He’s a genius!”
Market tanks.
“We need to experience pain for huge gains!”
Market tanks more.
“Ok we’re gonna drastically reduce the tariffs that were so brilliant they caused markets to tank!”
Market goes up.
“Wow the markets are only down a little bit! Tariffs are great!”

Zona was making light of the doom-and-gloom pronouncements stemming from the stock market's yo-yo act the past month. Morons cite the loss as to the number of points the Dow fell and announce those as "the biggest ever," which is a complete joke. The measure should be percentage loss, preferably over a relevant time frame. But using daily changes, fine. The biggest single-day losses in Dow history are:

11987-10-191,738.74−508.00−22.61
22020-03-1620,188.52−2,997.10−12.93
31929-10-28260.64−38.33−12.82
41929-10-29230.07−30.57−11.73
52020-03-1221,200.62−2,352.60−9.99
61929-11-06232.13−25.55−9.92
71899-12-1858.27−5.57−8.72
81932-08-1263.11−5.79−8.40
91907-03-1476.23−6.89−8.29
101987-10-261,793.93−156.83−8.04
112008-10-158,577.91−733.08−7.87
121933-07-2188.71−7.55−7.84
132020-03-0923,851.02−2,013.76−7.79
141937-10-18125.73−10.57−7.75
152008-12-018,149.09−679.95−7.70
162008-10-098,579.19−678.91−7.33
171917-02-0188.52−6.91−7.24
181997-10-277,161.14−554.26−7.18
191932-10-0566.07−5.09−7.15
202001-09-178,920.70−684.81−7.13


Three of the biggest loss days were Covid-related of course, the most in a single day the famous October 1987 crash, and then the 1929 crash.
 
Maybe in your responses to others you could lose the disrespectful attitude until they actually earn it. When they earn it, fine blast them. When you diminish others on the first couple posts they make on a topic, it says more about you than them.
If your feelings are easily hurt, I would suggest not getting involved in these type of discussions
You don't like those critical of Trump. We all understand that.
Trump deserves every bit of criticism he brings on himself. I have never said anything different.

What pisses me off is the selective indignation without viewing the issue in its entirety.
And yet we can agree that his style and actions are directionally correct, while pointing out that in 3 months, 3 years and 3 decades from now, many in the RoW will not forget his crass "kissing my ***" and " calling me up with 'sir.....' " public narcissism that will make things much less easy for every American not named Trump.
Who cares what the Rest of the World thinks. If they don’t like it they can go elsewhere to schlep their products.
And, fwiw, he did end up publicly kissing Japan's *** on Wednesday just as American bankers were asking Japan to roll over their large holdings in the US10yr auction. The auction that happened just after he told everyone to buy equities and the market rallied because he lowered his threats like OFTB indicated, and the bond market auction allowed for the first of several very large UST refinancings.
The market is controlled by big money players irrespective of what is really happening
Maybe that's why he is also soft on Ukraine and Gaza?
There are much more pressing issues that he is worrying about, ones that actually directly concern us. Ukraine and Gaza are way down on the list for Americans
 
If your feelings are easily hurt, I would suggest not getting involved in these type of discussions
Lol. Read back a few years. My point is that you move to being a dick to others, with personal commentary, as soon as they post something you do not like. You're not Trump.
Trump deserves every bit of criticism he brings on himself. I have never said anything different.
Yet you jump on those that do. Read up this thread.
What pisses me off is the selective indignation without viewing the issue in its entirety.
It's a big issue and it's entirety is not covered in this thread or you thoughts about it, regardless of your confidence in your ability to understand what you criticize others for not understanding.
Who cares what the Rest of the World thinks. If they don’t like it they can go elsewhere to schlep their products.
Ummm....the point of trade is enable greater efficiencies for less money for the buyer and the seller. The only way you don't actually care about the other side is if you are a ****** businessman. Your petulance is an unhelpful attitude; it might work for Trump and a few high-school kids or star athletes, but it's a miserable way to go through life with others.
The market is controlled by big money players irrespective of what is really happening
Ummm.....what is the point of your commentary then? Cheerleading?
There are much more pressing issues that he is worrying about, ones that actually directly concern us. Ukraine and Gaza are way down on the list for Americans
Sure. Accountability doesn't matter.

And a track record of saying "XYZ" and achieving 30% of XYZ gets noted by all, including those future partners the US might need.

The biggest need that Americans have is keeping the bond market stable to keep rates low and the dollar strong-ish. If all the tariff bravado was just about that, and trying to send China into default, BRAVO!
 
Market is volatile due to the wild daily pronouncements.

Hopefully advisors have reigned in his wildest instincts and we can get some stability.
Social platforms allow all of us, the media as well, to knee jerk opinions based almost entirely on personal perception of any particular subject.

I'm not privy to the day-to-day negotiations on the trade tariffs, but neither is anyone else on this forum, including you. My stance is, and always will be, to take a wait and see position on any subject that I don't have expertise in.

My comment on the 4% drop in the Dow since April 1st was an attempt at humor in reaction to those that are guaranteeing a recession and the destruction of our economy primarily based on their dislike for the current President. Again, they aren't involved in the negotiations either.

If Trump fails in this attempt, he fails, and I will acknowledge that, but at least he is doing something that he believes will make things better for every citizen in this country. Things aren't always as they first appear, just look at the Covid thread.

Looking back at this in 2028 will provide the proper perspective no matter what happens. Personally, I will remain cautiously optimistic, but what do I know.
 

My God, that would be so incredibly terrible, monumentally disastrous to wind up ... where we were two months ago.

Right?

Why even bother at this point? All he is doing with these pauses and exemptions is showing the world he lacks conviction behind his threats.

Or he is changing the game completely and ending the rip-off of the American economy. One tiny example:

Overall, the survey shows 70% reported health service interruptions as a result of sudden suspensions and reductions in official development assistance (ODA) for health that started in January when the US President announced a three-month pause for the country to re-align and re-evaluate its foreign policy.

Up to 24% of WHO Country Office responses suggest budget cuts are already translating into increased out-of-pocket payments. The poor and vulnerable are likely at risk of bearing the additional brunt of these impacts.

World Ends Tomorrow; Poor, People of Color Hurt the Most

Why the fuckity-**** is the United States paying for medical care for 70% of the ******* world???
 
“His tariffs are great! He’s a genius!”
Market tanks.
“We need to experience pain for huge gains!”
Market tanks more.
“Ok we’re gonna drastically reduce the tariffs that were so brilliant they caused markets to tank!”
Market goes up.
“Wow the markets are only down a little bit! Tariffs are great!”
Democrats: "Oh no, the stock market is down! Trump hates working people!"

Also Democrats: "Oh no, the stock market is up! Trump is helping his rich buddies and hates working people!"
 
My God, that would be so incredibly terrible, monumentally disastrous to wind up ... where we were two months ago.

Right?

Trump has severely disrupted the global economy with nothing to show for it.

Why will countries make any real trade concessions, or companies move production back to the US to any significant degree when they know Trump will be reducing and eliminating most of the tariffs in the coming months?

Trump started a fight in which he wasn't willing to take the hits. He ****** up, but at least he seems to be realizing his mistake before the economic damage becomes too severe.


Or he is changing the game completely and ending the rip-off of the American economy. One tiny example:

World Ends Tomorrow; Poor, People of Color Hurt the Most

Why the fuckity-**** is the United States paying for medical care for 70% of the ******* world???

Foreign aid is a separate issue, but in terms of trade, corporations have been the ones ripping off American workers by diverting investment to the likes of China, Mexico and Vietnam.

Cannot blame poorer counties for accepting it.
 
Trump has severely disrupted the global economy with nothing to show for it.

Oh **** the "global economy." Foreign economies can suck my dick. Those ******* have taken advantage of the American market for 35 years and now they whine because they are no longer allowed to rip us off?

To repeat, **** those *******.

Why will countries make any real trade concessions, or companies move production back to the US to any significant degree when they know Trump will be reducing and eliminating most of the tariffs in the coming months?

They don't. The idea that these corporations are led by brilliant long-term thinkers is laughable. They can barely look to the next quarter's profits, which will tank if they don't make some concessions to the new economy.

Trump started a fight in which he wasn't willing to take the hits. He ****** up, but at least he seems to be realizing his mistake before the economic damage becomes too severe.

Yeah, the **** happening over the past 35 years is the goal - massive trade deficits, loss of all manufacturing and $36 trillion debt. Per-*******-fecto.

God forbid he change that!

Foreign aid is a separate issue, but in terms of trade, corporations have been the ones ripping off American workers by diverting investment to the likes of China, Mexico and Vietnam.

Cannot blame poorer counties for accepting it.

You don't get that the CORPORATIONS are the ones to be hit? Seriously? And that Trump has told them, repeatedly, that moving manufacturing back to the United States avoids the tariffs or potential tariffs?

**** it. Let's keep staggering down the road to bankruptcy. Great idea.
 
Nope, not a coincidence at all when Orange Man Bad.
Someone told me earlier today that you can't trust information from the internets, so your source is invalid.

Democrats: "Trump has been President for five days and egg prices are still high!"
Egg prices come down.
Democrats: "Trump wants to kill people with cholesterol!"
 
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Oh **** the "global economy." Foreign economies can suck my dick. Those ******* have taken advantage of the American market for 35 years and now they whine because they are no longer allowed to rip us off?

To repeat, **** those *******

Global trade has made supply higher and prices lower in our economy than they otherwise would be in recent decades.

The system is not perfect and can use some adjustments, but isolationism would lower our standard of living. Not improve it.

They don't. The idea that these corporations are led by brilliant long-term thinkers is laughable. They can barely look to the next quarter's profits, which will tank if they don't make some concessions to the new economy.

There isn't going to be a "new economy," as Trump is proving to be all bluster in terms of tearing the old one down.

Yeah, the **** happening over the past 35 years is the goal - massive trade deficits, loss of all manufacturing and $36 trillion debt. Per-*******-fecto.

God forbid he change that!

The debt has much more to do with our entitlements, military spending, and tax policy than trade policy.

Also, we haven't lost "all" manufacturing. That's hyperbole. Even a lot of the **** that is assembled in places like China is made with materials and components made in the US.

The trade deficit is more a product of how much we consume than how much we produce. We consume way too much, with a lot of it being **** we really don't need.

We should definitely incentivize more production in certain industries, like steel and semiconductors, but we could not produce enough on our own to meet our current levels of demand even if we wanted to. It's not 1950 anymore

You don't get that the CORPORATIONS are the ones to be hit? Seriously? And that Trump has told them, repeatedly, that moving manufacturing back to the United States avoids the tariffs or potential tariffs?

**** it. Let's keep staggering down the road to bankruptcy. Great idea.

Yeah, Trump is really putting the screws to the likes of Apple and Nvidia by dropping the tariffs on electronics.

Trump is just proving to not be as serious about this as you seem to think he is.

He's not willing to disrupt the economy enough to force the kind of changes you and the MAGA crowd yearn for.

Paying significantly more for cars, appliances and electronics would wreck the middle and under classes of the country while waiting for new manufacturing jobs that may or may not materialize a few years down the road.

As for the prospect of bankruptcy, a steep recession would not exactly do wonders for the debt with the budget deficit currently at around 7% of GDP.

That's part of the reason why the bond market started selling off this week, prompting Trump to start pulling back.

It's now all about him trying to slowly maneuver out of this while saving as much face as possible, but he might have already caused enough disruption and uncertainty to trigger a recession in the coming months.
 
Global trade has made supply higher and prices lower in our economy than they otherwise would be in recent decades.

The system is not perfect and can use some adjustments, but isolationism would lower our standard of living. Not improve it.
Actually I agree with this.
Thing is, the tariff business is pretty one-sided. Other countries generally have higher tariffs on our stuff, and outright trade restrictions, than we do on their stuff.
Simple fact is that other countries need us more than we need them.
I think President Trump's idea of we charge you what you charge us is perfectly fine.
 
He's not willing to disrupt the economy enough to force the kind of changes you and the MAGA crowd yearn for.

Shouldn’t you yearn for the betterment of this nation as well? Why does this always have to be a “MAGA crowd” thing with you people?
There surely must be something wrong about Trump securing the border as well because thats what the “MAGA crowd” yearned for.

MAGA has become more than just a crowd in case you’re not aware.
 
Global trade has made supply higher and prices lower in our economy than they otherwise would be in recent decades.

The system is not perfect and can use some adjustments, but isolationism would lower our standard of living. Not improve it.

You are just wrong. If ******* tariffs are so bad and so damaging to an economy, why do China and Europe have massive tariffs on foreign goods??

The sign of a 3rd world economy is one that ships off raw materials and imports finished goods. That is America right now.

There isn't going to be a "new economy," as Trump is proving to be all bluster in terms of tearing the old one down.

It's been three ******* months. And yeah, I remember you chastising the dementia patient for adding $8 trillion to the debt with NOT ONE ******* THING TO SHOW FOR IT.

Hold up ...

The debt has much more to do with our entitlements, military spending, and tax policy than trade policy.

No, the debt has to do with spending waaaaay too much. Revenues are at an all-time high. Spending is the problem and blaming defense spending makes no sense when it is 3.45% of the GDP today, compared to 9.4% in 1972, 5.61% in 1990, etc.


Moreover, Trump has said very plainly that his goal is to force other countries to bear the cost of their own defense and not shove that burden onto the United States. He is once again correct.

Also, we haven't lost "all" manufacturing. That's hyperbole. Even a lot of the **** that is assembled in places like China is made with materials and components made in the US.

You have never driven across southern Ohio or Western Pennsylvania. The claim that the United States has not lost manufacturing is insane.

Tell me, what does the United States still manufacture other than automobiles? Ovens? Nope. Refrigerators? Nope. Dishwashers? Nope. Air conditioners or heaters? Nope. Tires? Nope. Computers? Nope. Phones? Nope. Semiconductors? Nope. Bicycles, toys, airplanes, both real and pretend? Nope, nope, nope, and nope.

The trade deficit is more a product of how much we consume than how much we produce. We consume way too much, with a lot of it being **** we really don't need.

The deficit is simply fueled by corporations shipping manufacturing overseas for cheap labor and no worker protection, to make the **** cheaper and sell more.

Force those corporations to pay a price for selling off our economy. Wages increase at home, money remains here and the economy benefits.

We should definitely incentivize more production in certain industries, like steel and semiconductors, but we could not produce enough on our own to meet our current levels of demand even if we wanted to. It's not 1950 anymore

The claim we cannot produce enough to meet our own needs is simply not founded on facts. We can't produce enough right now because WE DON'T ******* KEEP THE MEANS OF PRODUCTION AT HOME

Yeah, Trump is really putting the screws to the likes of Apple and Nvidia by dropping the tariffs on electronics.

Trump is just proving to not be as serious about this as you seem to think he is.

He's not willing to disrupt the economy enough to force the kind of changes you and the MAGA crowd yearn for.

What I yearn for is dipshits to admit the path followed the past 35 years has nearly destroyed this nation.

But you can't. 100,000 OD? Wages down? Middle class disappearing? Debt out of control, deficit exploding for no reason? *yawn* Import more ****** Nikes from China.

Paying significantly more for cars, appliances and electronics would wreck the middle and under classes of the country while waiting for new manufacturing jobs that may or may not materialize a few years down the road.

You are fundamentally wrong. Henry Ford paid his employees twice the going rate because he wanted them to be able to afford his cars.

You, like most, conflate the increase in price of certain goods for a certain time with inflation. A price increase in certain goods is not inflation; it's a ******* price increase in certain goods.

I am frankly not even interested in discussing the matter with somebody who claims that DONALD TRUMP will destroy America's middle class when that is ALL that has been done for more than 30 ******* years through no fault of Donald Trump. You are standing over a rotting corpse, protesting that rinsing off the dead body might endanger its lovely aroma.

News alert: The United States is $36 TRILLION in debt. Continuing the globalist giveaway is just insane.

BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, ORANGE MAN BAD, BLAH, BLAH, ORANGE MAN CAUSE WORLD WAR II, BLAH, BLAH

Whatever dude. Let's just keep spending $2 trillion more than we bring in and pay for circumcisions in Kenya and LGBTQRSTUV+ Sesame Street in Uzbekistan!
 
You are just wrong. If ******* tariffs are so bad and so damaging to an economy, why do China and Europe have massive tariffs on foreign goods??

The sign of a 3rd world economy is one that ships off raw materials and imports finished goods. That is America right now.

Despite the problems, America is nothing like a third world country. Come on, dude.

The US has the strongest consumer market in the world, and only the Chinese export more than we do, and not by as much as you probably think.


It's been three ******* months. And yeah, I remember you chastising the dementia patient for adding $8 trillion to the debt with NOT ONE ******* THING TO SHOW FOR IT.

Hold up ...

Remember when Trump's tax cuts added to the budget deficit even before the pandemic? Good times.

No, the debt has to do with spending waaaaay too much. Revenues are at an all-time high. Spending is the problem and blaming defense spending makes no sense when it is 3.45% of the GDP today, compared to 9.4% in 1972, 5.61% in 1990, etc.


Moreover, Trump has said very plainly that his goal is to force other countries to bear the cost of their own defense and not shove that burden onto the United States. He is once again correct.
We spend too much? You don't say!

Revenues are at an all time higher because GDP is at all time high. It doesn't mean revenues couldn't or shouldn't be even higher with better tax policy.

You have never driven across southern Ohio or Western Pennsylvania. The claim that the United States has not lost manufacturing is insane.

Tell me, what does the United States still manufacture other than automobiles? Ovens? Nope. Refrigerators? Nope. Dishwashers? Nope. Air conditioners or heaters? Nope. Tires? Nope. Computers? Nope. Phones? Nope. Semiconductors? Nope. Bicycles, toys, airplanes, both real and pretend? Nope, nope, nope, and nope.

We don't build airplanes here? It's like our biggest industry outside of energy.

Again, we're the second largest exporter in the world, and it's not all commodities.

We can always use more industry, but things are not so dire that the whole system needs to be torn down. Not even close.

The claim we cannot produce enough to meet our own needs is simply not founded on facts. We can't produce enough right now because WE DON'T ******* KEEP THE MEANS OF PRODUCTION AT HOME

"Needs" maybe, but not our current levels of overall consumption.

We would have to reduce our consumption and ration certain things to get by strictly on domestic consumption.

What I yearn for is dipshits to admit the path followed the past 35 years has nearly destroyed this nation.

But you can't. 100,000 OD? Wages down? Middle class disappearing? Debt out of control, deficit exploding for no reason? *yawn* Import more ****** Nikes from China.

If Trump was as convinced about this country heading toward destruction with tariffs being the solution as you are, he'd be maintaining the tariffs he set instead of pausing and reducing them.

Wage growth is the highest it's been in around 20 years. Housing costs are hurting the middle class more than anything right now.

Whatever dude. Let's just keep spending $2 trillion more than we bring in and pay for circumcisions in Kenya and LGBTQRSTUV+ Sesame Street in Uzbekistan!

These tariffs and the cutting of foreign aid programs are not going to do **** to address the budget deficit. Any revenue collected by the tariffs will be offset by lower growth in the economy.

We'll be fortunate if Trump doesn't leave office with a higher deficit than he inherited, as that would imply we avoided a recession in the meantime.
 
I think President Trump's idea of we charge you what you charge us is perfectly fine.

That's not what he did, though.

His people concocted some asinine formula based on our trade deficits with other countries to determine the tariff rates imposed on them.

Calling them reciprocal tariffs was absurd.
 
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