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The Coronavirus thread
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Who’s being defunded!
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The same way TIm knows the case count is higher. If one is higher it stands to reason the other will be as well now it wont be as far off the case count is. But you can't tell me particularly early in this there were not deaths missed. There always are and the scientists always use data and make an estimate based on that at the end of the actual totals. This is standard practice for this it is not all some damn conspiracy. If it was unique I would agree but they can't at this point test everyone but they can pretty accurately rule out the other likely causes. I am not trying to say it is higher to make it seem worse it is just basic math on something like this. Again the mortality numbers "officially reported" will still come down even as the deaths are done this way because they will start using a similar method for cases.
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">We live in a country of 330 million people. <br><br>We are supposed to believe that of a total of 23,000 deaths, over 10,000 occurred in NYC— an island of just 7 million people (of which at least a million fled). <br><br>Can we all stop pretending this makes any sense, please.<br><br>I’m bored.</p>— Candace Owens (@RealCandaceO) <a href="https://twitter.com/RealCandaceO/status/1250094426824880130?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 14, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
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The first question is simple. They didn't have the tests or access to them.
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Damn Candace is losing it, the numbers I have seen show that number for the whole damn state.
Emphatically, you're wrong. No, it will not be.
They are OVER counting deaths. Dr. Birx admitted it. NYC just added 3700 non-positive deaths to the tally because they MAY have had COVID. Flu deaths disappeared.
This is unarguable fact....Deaths are either over reported or accurate. Because...the people died. We have bodies.
Those with the virus who don't die. A scintilla of Americans have been tested. We have a vast swath of Americans not tested who are carrying the virus.
One denominator is known - deaths - to a much, much, much tighter degree and we have admitted inflation of those numbers.
The other denominator is massively massively under tested.
I have had many residents that have passed with initial test as positives but later tested (prior to passing) as negative. Cause of death? Covid. Hmm? Sure false negative...but just as many false positives
New York city as of today: 7,905 Deaths
Nassau County (next door to Queens): 1,001 deaths
Suffolk County (Long Island): 608 deaths
These are considered the Metro area.
New York State deaths: 10,834
And you could go further to Westchester, etc. Are you aware of how many people commute in and out of the city daily, from CT and NJ alone? Yes the literal use of NYC was inappropriate, but the metro area eats up most of the state's cases.
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You are wrong and being a jackass. You try to have things both ways, it can't be one way for one thing and not that way for the other. I watch you time and time again argue points out of both sides of your mouth. You use arguments that contradict each other than act like no one else in the ******* world can be right other than Tim. You are becoming Elfie just on the right side of things instead of the left. You can't even tell when someone agrees with you and have to be a condescending jerk. I think you need a some time away to get some perspective. I have tried to have rational discussion but you seem bereft of any ability to calmly argue without berating the other for daring to disagree with you.
It’s why upper NJ and lower CT are getting hammered.
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https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/nidhiprakash/coronavirus-update-dead-covid19-doctors-hospitals
CORONAVIRUS
Doctors And Nurses Say More People Are Dying Of COVID-19 In The US Than We Know
“The numbers are grossly underreported. I know for a fact that we’ve had three deaths in one county where only one is listed on the website,” one California ER doctor told BuzzFeed News.
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Nidhi Prakash
BuzzFeed News Reporter
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Ellie Hall
BuzzFeed News Reporter
Posted on March 25, 2020, at 9:28 p.m. ET
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The journalists at BuzzFeed News are proud to bring you trustworthy and relevant reporting about the coronavirus. To help keep this news free, become a member and sign up for our newsletter, Outbreak Today.
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Medical professionals around the US told BuzzFeed News that the official numbers of people who have died of COVID-19 are not consistent with the number of deaths they’re seeing on the front lines.
In some cases, it’s a lag in reporting, caused by delays and possible breakdowns in logging positive tests and making them public. In other, more troubling, cases, medical experts told BuzzFeed News they think it’s because people are not being tested before or after they die.
In the US, state and county authorities are responsible for collecting data on cases of COVID-19, the disease caused by the novel coronavirus, and deaths. The data is then reported to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
Bryan R. Smith / Getty Images
An NYC Medical Examiner's Office official near a makeshift morgue outside of Bellevue Hospital on March 25.
In California, one ER doctor who works at multiple hospitals in a hard-hit county told BuzzFeed News, “those medical records aren't being audited by anyone at the state and local level currently and some people aren’t even testing those people who are dead.”
“We just don't know. The numbers are grossly underreported. I know for a fact that we’ve had three deaths in one county where only one is listed on the website,” the doctor said.
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A spokesperson for the California Department of Health told BuzzFeed News in an email that “local health jurisdictions are required to report all positive COVID-19 cases to the state. In addition, when a death or impending death from COVID-19 occurs, health care facilities must immediately notify their local health jurisdiction and the state."
They did not immediately address the question of whether they’re confident their death count is accurate given the shortage of testing for COVID-19.
[Are you a health care worker or funeral director who thinks a COVID-19 death isn't being counted? Reach out to BuzzFeed News reporters Nidhi Prakash at nidhi.prakash@buzzfeed.com or Ellie Hall at ellie.hall@buzzfeed.com or use our secure tip line channels.]
And two of the hardest-hit areas in the nation — New York City and Los Angeles County — released guidance earlier this week encouraging doctors not to test patients unless they think the test will significantly change their course of treatment. That means that potentially more people in both places could be admitted to hospitals with severe respiratory symptoms and recover — or die — and not be registered as a coronavirus case.
LA County and New York City’s health departments did not immediately respond to requests for comment.
Doctors and nurses working in several hospitals around the country, who spoke with BuzzFeed News on the condition of not being named out of fear of repercussions, said that the official counts of COVID-19 related deaths are not comprehensive for three main reasons: a lack of tests and protective equipment means not everyone who contracted or dies of COVID-19 is diagnosed; overwhelmed hospitals may be running behind on reporting the numbers to state and county authorities; and some hospitals reporting their totals on a daily basis say they’re not being reflected promptly in county and state reports.
This doesn’t necessarily mean that authorities are underestimating how deadly the disease is. States across the US have implemented stay-at-home orders in part because there are an unknown number of people who have COVID-19, including some who may never even have symptoms or get mildly sick and recover but are still capable of spreading the virus.
ADVERTISEMENT
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What it does mean is that we don’t have a fully accurate picture of how widespread COVID-19 deaths are, or where they’re happening at the highest rates. While staff at hospitals prioritize treating patients and saving lives — testing doesn’t usually change the course of treatment for COVID-19 — the lack of reliable numbers becomes a real problem when it comes to understanding the true scope of the crisis, and where resources are most urgently needed, according to doctors and disaster response experts.
The lack of available COVID-19 tests has crippled the US response to the coronavirus. The initial tests distributed to major state and city labs in February proved to be unreliable, and the FDA did not allow state and clinical laboratories to make and administer their own tests until the end of the month.
Although the CDC issues guidance and guidelines, local authorities in each state have the power to decide who, alive or dead, can be tested and how the tests are administered. That’s why there has been such variation in COVID-19 testing depending on where you live. The lack of federally mandated rules on reporting positive cases and deaths reflects an ongoing problem with major disaster responses in the US — the CDC’s guidelines and recommendations don’t add up to a cohesive national system, because states can choose if and when they use those recommendations.
The way states and counties make that information public has varied significantly — in Los Angeles, COVID-19 cases are listed by neighborhood. New York City makes that data available only by county.
The process by which medical professionals report COVID-19 cases to the CDC is standardized across the country. The CDC does not publicize the number of cases or deaths it studies.
For months, the CDC instructed state and local health departments to send tissue samples from all suspected COVID-19 deaths to them so the CDC could test for the disease. On Wednesday the agency issued new guidelines, since access to tests is increasing: Now, the agency only recommends that departments incapable of testing people, both alive and dead, send samples to the CDC.
The CDC did not immediately respond to request for comment on the volume of postmortem tests they’ve been processing and how quickly results are available and sent back to local health authorities.
Some medical professionals said that it isn’t just a lack of testing that’s leading to a probable under-counting of people who contracted COVID-19 and the deaths caused by COVID-19. They said there’s also a lag in county and state records reflecting the positive COVID-19 test results and deaths they’re seeing first hand. It’s not clear why that’s the case.
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An NYC Medical Examiner's Office official near a makeshift morgue outside of Bellevue Hospital, March 25.
“We have confirmed at least 5 cases in our hospital, but official state reporting only lists one case in our entire county,” said one department head at a small hospital in Mississippi, referring to patients who had tested positive for COVID-19 but were not reflected in county numbers.
The Mississippi Department of Health did not immediately respond to a request for comment.
A nurse in Texas told BuzzFeed News the lag is partly because test results are slow to come back — the nurse said they have seen some patients either be sent home as they start to feel better or die from the disease before their results come in.
The Texas Department of Health said in an email to BuzzFeed News on Wednesday that on Tuesday night they “updated [their] process for collecting info for [their] online case count to speed up how quickly new cases show up there,” collecting information from data that counties and local health departments make public every day, rather than waiting for those agencies to send them official case reports, “which was creating a larger lag in numbers.”
“We always encourage people to go to their local health department for the most updated numbers. They get case reports first and will have the latest information,” the Texas health department spokesperson said in the email.
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How cases are reported has frustrated health care workers.
“From the beginning when it was easier to track, we'd had confirmed cases in our ER and on my unit all while the news and dot gov websites continued to claim our county and affiliated hospital counties were still at zero cases,” another nurse at a large teaching hospital in New Jersey told BuzzFeed News.
“I have still not seen any reports on COVID patients of ours who died this week,” the nurse said.
“It is beyond my capacity to constantly monitor this and I am not sure why things aren't being reported as we have rigorous documentation and reporting procedures in place for the CDC,” the nurse added, referring to the COVID-19 reporting form released by the CDC for health departments to report cases.
Robert Jensen, CEO of Kenyon International, a private company that specializes in disaster response where there’s a significant death count, said that it’s not surprising that the official numbers have not caught up to what medical professionals are seeing on the front lines.
“Right now, everyone is just doing it ad hoc. I don't think the documents have even caught up because I think those things take weeks, and I don’t think they’ll catch up for some time,” he said.
Jensen added that knowing exactly how many people are contracting and dying of the disease will be important down the track when COVID-19 vaccines become available, to get those resources to the most vulnerable communities.
“When a vaccine comes out you have to identify who’s at risk, and that's why the data is so key,” he said.
ADVERTISEMENT
The uncertainty and lack of available testing has left some families in the US wondering about the recent deaths of people close to them, even if they can’t definitively link those deaths to the outbreak. One 44-year-old woman in Massachusetts, who also asked not to be named out of fear of repercussions online, told BuzzFeed News she’s left without answers about whether her father, who died in January, was a casualty of the virus.
She believes there’s a strong chance he had COVID-19, and at the very least thinks he should have been tested. Her father, 74, was admitted into a hospital on Jan. 22, and died about a week later, on Jan. 30, his cause of death listed on his death certificate as “respiratory failure.” She said he had a dry cough and a high fever, but wasn’t tested for COVID-19 while he was alive or after he died. He tested negative for the flu. The first CDC reported death related to the disease caused by the new coronavirus in the US was in Washington on Feb. 29. The first confirmed case of COVID-19 was diagnosed on Jan. 20 in Washington.
“The shortness of breath was why he called the ambulance,” she said. “Now my dad was not the healthiest guy. He had heart troubles and also suffered from COPD and emphysema, but he had had pneumonia numerous times and this was different for him. And the dry cough, he never had that before.”
She said she had to make the decision to take him off a CPAP ventilator when it became clear that his condition had deteriorated.
“This was the hardest decision to make, but he just kept getting worse. I wish he was tested, but obviously that can't happen now. I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy. It was hard on him and my family,” she said. ●
https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/social-media-posts-make-baseless-claim-on-covid-19-death-toll/
https://www.politifact.com/factchec...19-skeptics-say-theres-overcount-doctors-fie/
COVID-19 skeptics say there’s an overcount. Doctors in the field say the opposite
IF YOUR TIME IS SHORT
Patients who test positive for the coronavirus are likely being included in nationwide death counts.
But doctors say that’s actually an undercount because of a lack of available testing, among other factors.
Coronavirus is more difficult for people with pre-existing heart and lung problems, which could lead to respiratory or cardiac arrest.
See the sources for this fact-check
On the day that doctors and nurses in New York City treated over 1,500 new COVID-19 patients, conservative pundit Candace Owens claimed that deaths from the pandemic coronavirus have been inflated.
"Apparently, doctors and nurses around the world are wondering why no one is dying from heart attacks or strokes any more, Owens tweeted April 6. "Flu and pneumonia deaths also went off a cliff. Turns out everyone is only dying of coronavirus now. Gee, I wonder why."
Candace Owens
✔
@RealCandaceO
Apparently, doctors and nurses around the world are wondering why no one is dying from heart attacks and strokes anymore.
Flu and pneumonia deaths also went off a cliff.
Turns out everyone is only dying of #Coronavirus now.
Gee. I wonder why. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/06/...itals-emergency-care-heart-attack-stroke.html …
Where Have All the Heart Attacks Gone?
Except for treating Covid-19, many hospitals seem to be eerily quiet.
nytimes.com
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6:20 PM - Apr 6, 2020
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An exaggerated death count is a persistent talking point. On April 4, Owens tweeted "State departments of Public Health are reporting the number of deaths BEFORE the medical examiners have even concluded the cause of death," she said. "There would be no legitimate way to report how many people die daily."
Are Owens’ claims correct? We asked her for evidence but did not hear back. What we found is that her statement is at odds with doctors, who say the data, in fact, reflects an undercount.
Here’s why the details of death reporting back up the doctors more than the pundits.
Complicating factors aren’t so complicated
Owens is wrong that only medical examiners determine a person’s cause of death. Formal death certificates start with the attending doctor. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention tells physicians to list the immediate cause of death, such as cardiac or respiratory arrest, and then proceed to the underlying disease that caused the heart or breathing to stop.
The underlying cause should be "the disease or injury which initiated the train of morbid events leading directly to death."
If a person showed up in the emergency room with COVID-19 symptoms and a heart attack, there could be a judgement call as to what goes in as the underlying cause. But Dr. Marcus Plescia, chief medical officer for the Association of State and Territorial Health Officials, said there would be strong argument to note the key role of COVID-19.
"I would put COVID-19 as the primary cause," Plescia said. "Because most likely, the heart attack was caused by the fever or a difficulty in breathing."
There’s no question that the virus lands harder on people with pre-existing heart and lung problems.
"If those individuals are positive for COVID-19 and have symptoms, COVID-19 is typically being listed on the death certificate as the cause of death, with their other diseases listed as contributory," said Dr. Sally Aiken, president of the National Association of Medical Examiners.
Aiken added, "it is not a conspiracy, or any different than what occurs during non-COVID-19 times."
The CDC said in a statement that if it works with death certificate data, it will add a death to the COVID-19 tally regardless on which line the disease is listed.
Death certificates and COVID-19 reports are different
It’s important to note that death certificates are not the only — or even primary way — the states report coronavirus deaths.
New York, which to date accounts for over 40% of deaths nationwide, does not use death certificate data for reporting COVID-19 fatalities. When a person with the virus dies, hospitals or nursing homes tell their local health officials who then notify the state health department, which in turn sends a report to Washington.
CORONAVIRUS
Doctors And Nurses Say More People Are Dying Of COVID-19 In The US Than We Know
“The numbers are grossly underreported. I know for a fact that we’ve had three deaths in one county where only one is listed on the website,” one California ER doctor told BuzzFeed News.
Picture of Nidhi Prakash
Nidhi Prakash
BuzzFeed News Reporter
Picture of Ellie Hall
Ellie Hall
BuzzFeed News Reporter
Posted on March 25, 2020, at 9:28 p.m. ET
Tweet
Share
Copy
BuzzFeed News; Getty Images
The journalists at BuzzFeed News are proud to bring you trustworthy and relevant reporting about the coronavirus. To help keep this news free, become a member and sign up for our newsletter, Outbreak Today.
ADVERTISEMENT
Medical professionals around the US told BuzzFeed News that the official numbers of people who have died of COVID-19 are not consistent with the number of deaths they’re seeing on the front lines.
In some cases, it’s a lag in reporting, caused by delays and possible breakdowns in logging positive tests and making them public. In other, more troubling, cases, medical experts told BuzzFeed News they think it’s because people are not being tested before or after they die.
In the US, state and county authorities are responsible for collecting data on cases of COVID-19, the disease caused by the novel coronavirus, and deaths. The data is then reported to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
Bryan R. Smith / Getty Images
An NYC Medical Examiner's Office official near a makeshift morgue outside of Bellevue Hospital on March 25.
In California, one ER doctor who works at multiple hospitals in a hard-hit county told BuzzFeed News, “those medical records aren't being audited by anyone at the state and local level currently and some people aren’t even testing those people who are dead.”
“We just don't know. The numbers are grossly underreported. I know for a fact that we’ve had three deaths in one county where only one is listed on the website,” the doctor said.
ADVERTISEMENT
A spokesperson for the California Department of Health told BuzzFeed News in an email that “local health jurisdictions are required to report all positive COVID-19 cases to the state. In addition, when a death or impending death from COVID-19 occurs, health care facilities must immediately notify their local health jurisdiction and the state."
They did not immediately address the question of whether they’re confident their death count is accurate given the shortage of testing for COVID-19.
[Are you a health care worker or funeral director who thinks a COVID-19 death isn't being counted? Reach out to BuzzFeed News reporters Nidhi Prakash at nidhi.prakash@buzzfeed.com or Ellie Hall at ellie.hall@buzzfeed.com or use our secure tip line channels.]
And two of the hardest-hit areas in the nation — New York City and Los Angeles County — released guidance earlier this week encouraging doctors not to test patients unless they think the test will significantly change their course of treatment. That means that potentially more people in both places could be admitted to hospitals with severe respiratory symptoms and recover — or die — and not be registered as a coronavirus case.
LA County and New York City’s health departments did not immediately respond to requests for comment.
Doctors and nurses working in several hospitals around the country, who spoke with BuzzFeed News on the condition of not being named out of fear of repercussions, said that the official counts of COVID-19 related deaths are not comprehensive for three main reasons: a lack of tests and protective equipment means not everyone who contracted or dies of COVID-19 is diagnosed; overwhelmed hospitals may be running behind on reporting the numbers to state and county authorities; and some hospitals reporting their totals on a daily basis say they’re not being reflected promptly in county and state reports.
This doesn’t necessarily mean that authorities are underestimating how deadly the disease is. States across the US have implemented stay-at-home orders in part because there are an unknown number of people who have COVID-19, including some who may never even have symptoms or get mildly sick and recover but are still capable of spreading the virus.
ADVERTISEMENT
WeeklyPenny | TotalAV
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Windows Users Working From Home During The Outbreak Should Read This
Sponsored by WeeklyPenny | TotalAV
What it does mean is that we don’t have a fully accurate picture of how widespread COVID-19 deaths are, or where they’re happening at the highest rates. While staff at hospitals prioritize treating patients and saving lives — testing doesn’t usually change the course of treatment for COVID-19 — the lack of reliable numbers becomes a real problem when it comes to understanding the true scope of the crisis, and where resources are most urgently needed, according to doctors and disaster response experts.
The lack of available COVID-19 tests has crippled the US response to the coronavirus. The initial tests distributed to major state and city labs in February proved to be unreliable, and the FDA did not allow state and clinical laboratories to make and administer their own tests until the end of the month.
Although the CDC issues guidance and guidelines, local authorities in each state have the power to decide who, alive or dead, can be tested and how the tests are administered. That’s why there has been such variation in COVID-19 testing depending on where you live. The lack of federally mandated rules on reporting positive cases and deaths reflects an ongoing problem with major disaster responses in the US — the CDC’s guidelines and recommendations don’t add up to a cohesive national system, because states can choose if and when they use those recommendations.
The way states and counties make that information public has varied significantly — in Los Angeles, COVID-19 cases are listed by neighborhood. New York City makes that data available only by county.
The process by which medical professionals report COVID-19 cases to the CDC is standardized across the country. The CDC does not publicize the number of cases or deaths it studies.
For months, the CDC instructed state and local health departments to send tissue samples from all suspected COVID-19 deaths to them so the CDC could test for the disease. On Wednesday the agency issued new guidelines, since access to tests is increasing: Now, the agency only recommends that departments incapable of testing people, both alive and dead, send samples to the CDC.
The CDC did not immediately respond to request for comment on the volume of postmortem tests they’ve been processing and how quickly results are available and sent back to local health authorities.
Some medical professionals said that it isn’t just a lack of testing that’s leading to a probable under-counting of people who contracted COVID-19 and the deaths caused by COVID-19. They said there’s also a lag in county and state records reflecting the positive COVID-19 test results and deaths they’re seeing first hand. It’s not clear why that’s the case.
ADVERTISEMENT
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Bryan R. Smith / Getty Images
An NYC Medical Examiner's Office official near a makeshift morgue outside of Bellevue Hospital, March 25.
“We have confirmed at least 5 cases in our hospital, but official state reporting only lists one case in our entire county,” said one department head at a small hospital in Mississippi, referring to patients who had tested positive for COVID-19 but were not reflected in county numbers.
The Mississippi Department of Health did not immediately respond to a request for comment.
A nurse in Texas told BuzzFeed News the lag is partly because test results are slow to come back — the nurse said they have seen some patients either be sent home as they start to feel better or die from the disease before their results come in.
The Texas Department of Health said in an email to BuzzFeed News on Wednesday that on Tuesday night they “updated [their] process for collecting info for [their] online case count to speed up how quickly new cases show up there,” collecting information from data that counties and local health departments make public every day, rather than waiting for those agencies to send them official case reports, “which was creating a larger lag in numbers.”
“We always encourage people to go to their local health department for the most updated numbers. They get case reports first and will have the latest information,” the Texas health department spokesperson said in the email.
ADVERTISEMENT
How cases are reported has frustrated health care workers.
“From the beginning when it was easier to track, we'd had confirmed cases in our ER and on my unit all while the news and dot gov websites continued to claim our county and affiliated hospital counties were still at zero cases,” another nurse at a large teaching hospital in New Jersey told BuzzFeed News.
“I have still not seen any reports on COVID patients of ours who died this week,” the nurse said.
“It is beyond my capacity to constantly monitor this and I am not sure why things aren't being reported as we have rigorous documentation and reporting procedures in place for the CDC,” the nurse added, referring to the COVID-19 reporting form released by the CDC for health departments to report cases.
Robert Jensen, CEO of Kenyon International, a private company that specializes in disaster response where there’s a significant death count, said that it’s not surprising that the official numbers have not caught up to what medical professionals are seeing on the front lines.
“Right now, everyone is just doing it ad hoc. I don't think the documents have even caught up because I think those things take weeks, and I don’t think they’ll catch up for some time,” he said.
Jensen added that knowing exactly how many people are contracting and dying of the disease will be important down the track when COVID-19 vaccines become available, to get those resources to the most vulnerable communities.
“When a vaccine comes out you have to identify who’s at risk, and that's why the data is so key,” he said.
ADVERTISEMENT
The uncertainty and lack of available testing has left some families in the US wondering about the recent deaths of people close to them, even if they can’t definitively link those deaths to the outbreak. One 44-year-old woman in Massachusetts, who also asked not to be named out of fear of repercussions online, told BuzzFeed News she’s left without answers about whether her father, who died in January, was a casualty of the virus.
She believes there’s a strong chance he had COVID-19, and at the very least thinks he should have been tested. Her father, 74, was admitted into a hospital on Jan. 22, and died about a week later, on Jan. 30, his cause of death listed on his death certificate as “respiratory failure.” She said he had a dry cough and a high fever, but wasn’t tested for COVID-19 while he was alive or after he died. He tested negative for the flu. The first CDC reported death related to the disease caused by the new coronavirus in the US was in Washington on Feb. 29. The first confirmed case of COVID-19 was diagnosed on Jan. 20 in Washington.
“The shortness of breath was why he called the ambulance,” she said. “Now my dad was not the healthiest guy. He had heart troubles and also suffered from COPD and emphysema, but he had had pneumonia numerous times and this was different for him. And the dry cough, he never had that before.”
She said she had to make the decision to take him off a CPAP ventilator when it became clear that his condition had deteriorated.
“This was the hardest decision to make, but he just kept getting worse. I wish he was tested, but obviously that can't happen now. I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy. It was hard on him and my family,” she said. ●
https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/social-media-posts-make-baseless-claim-on-covid-19-death-toll/
https://www.politifact.com/factchec...19-skeptics-say-theres-overcount-doctors-fie/
COVID-19 skeptics say there’s an overcount. Doctors in the field say the opposite
IF YOUR TIME IS SHORT
Patients who test positive for the coronavirus are likely being included in nationwide death counts.
But doctors say that’s actually an undercount because of a lack of available testing, among other factors.
Coronavirus is more difficult for people with pre-existing heart and lung problems, which could lead to respiratory or cardiac arrest.
See the sources for this fact-check
On the day that doctors and nurses in New York City treated over 1,500 new COVID-19 patients, conservative pundit Candace Owens claimed that deaths from the pandemic coronavirus have been inflated.
"Apparently, doctors and nurses around the world are wondering why no one is dying from heart attacks or strokes any more, Owens tweeted April 6. "Flu and pneumonia deaths also went off a cliff. Turns out everyone is only dying of coronavirus now. Gee, I wonder why."
Candace Owens
✔
@RealCandaceO
Apparently, doctors and nurses around the world are wondering why no one is dying from heart attacks and strokes anymore.
Flu and pneumonia deaths also went off a cliff.
Turns out everyone is only dying of #Coronavirus now.
Gee. I wonder why. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/06/...itals-emergency-care-heart-attack-stroke.html …
Where Have All the Heart Attacks Gone?
Except for treating Covid-19, many hospitals seem to be eerily quiet.
nytimes.com
43K
6:20 PM - Apr 6, 2020
Twitter Ads info and privacy
22.7K people are talking about this
An exaggerated death count is a persistent talking point. On April 4, Owens tweeted "State departments of Public Health are reporting the number of deaths BEFORE the medical examiners have even concluded the cause of death," she said. "There would be no legitimate way to report how many people die daily."
Are Owens’ claims correct? We asked her for evidence but did not hear back. What we found is that her statement is at odds with doctors, who say the data, in fact, reflects an undercount.
Here’s why the details of death reporting back up the doctors more than the pundits.
Complicating factors aren’t so complicated
Owens is wrong that only medical examiners determine a person’s cause of death. Formal death certificates start with the attending doctor. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention tells physicians to list the immediate cause of death, such as cardiac or respiratory arrest, and then proceed to the underlying disease that caused the heart or breathing to stop.
The underlying cause should be "the disease or injury which initiated the train of morbid events leading directly to death."
If a person showed up in the emergency room with COVID-19 symptoms and a heart attack, there could be a judgement call as to what goes in as the underlying cause. But Dr. Marcus Plescia, chief medical officer for the Association of State and Territorial Health Officials, said there would be strong argument to note the key role of COVID-19.
"I would put COVID-19 as the primary cause," Plescia said. "Because most likely, the heart attack was caused by the fever or a difficulty in breathing."
There’s no question that the virus lands harder on people with pre-existing heart and lung problems.
"If those individuals are positive for COVID-19 and have symptoms, COVID-19 is typically being listed on the death certificate as the cause of death, with their other diseases listed as contributory," said Dr. Sally Aiken, president of the National Association of Medical Examiners.
Aiken added, "it is not a conspiracy, or any different than what occurs during non-COVID-19 times."
The CDC said in a statement that if it works with death certificate data, it will add a death to the COVID-19 tally regardless on which line the disease is listed.
Death certificates and COVID-19 reports are different
It’s important to note that death certificates are not the only — or even primary way — the states report coronavirus deaths.
New York, which to date accounts for over 40% of deaths nationwide, does not use death certificate data for reporting COVID-19 fatalities. When a person with the virus dies, hospitals or nursing homes tell their local health officials who then notify the state health department, which in turn sends a report to Washington.
Yes it can be.
Let's use simple math.
Worldometers:
Cases as of today: 588,958 - these are tested cases. Verified. Took a swab or are in the hospital on a vent or died from the virus.
Deaths as of today: 24,527
Multiple, and I mean many sources, not including the CDC and Fauci himself, estimate that 5x to 10x the number of tested positive are also carrying the virus.
If you use 5x, then 5 x 588,958 = 2.945 million Americans have the virus.
If you use 10x, then 10 x 588,958 = 5.89 Million Americans have the virus.
Are you going to sit here and tell me that the # of people who have died from CV19 is 5x or 10x the reported numbers - which would be 122,635 to 245,270 deaths?
Produce evidence.
Shutting down the country for something killing less than flu...what could possibly go wrong? Just our food supply dwindling.
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">We are weeks, not months, away from farmers euthanizing animals that would have been sold for meat/food. Also, fruits and vegetables are going to rot in the fields. A drastic change in policy this week could ameliorate this inevitability.<br><br>Listen here:<a href="https://t.co/bCzTX763r1">https://t.co/bCzTX763r1</a></p>— Thomas Massie (@RepThomasMassie) <a href="https://twitter.com/RepThomasMassie/status/1249662028643475457?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 13, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
But we will bounce back.
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">We are weeks, not months, away from farmers euthanizing animals that would have been sold for meat/food. Also, fruits and vegetables are going to rot in the fields. A drastic change in policy this week could ameliorate this inevitability.<br><br>Listen here:<a href="https://t.co/bCzTX763r1">https://t.co/bCzTX763r1</a></p>— Thomas Massie (@RepThomasMassie) <a href="https://twitter.com/RepThomasMassie/status/1249662028643475457?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 13, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
But we will bounce back.
There have been riots in Southern Italy and in Brussels. They may be coming here soon.
'We desire to retain our liberty': Michigan anti-quarantine group gains 300,000 followers ahead of planned protest
A Facebook group protesting the Michigan governor's stay-at-home orders has gained more than 300,000 members as of Tuesday.
Michiganders Against Excessive Quarantine experienced an influx of new members after Democratic Gov. Gretchen Whitmer ordered the state to shut down through April.
"A place for Michiganders to organize and work towards a reasonable solution to the covid-19 crisis," reads the group's bio. "We desire to retain our liberty by organizing in large numbers and commanding the attention of our legislators and governor. Our mission is to set a nationwide example by proving the people of Michigan are resilient, courageous, intelligent, and our liberty is valuable. We can overcome covid-19 without putting Michiganders out of work and further damaging our economy."
On Tuesday, an online petition that accused Whitmer of sabotaging the Michigan economy by ordering a state shutdown gained more than 200,000 signatures.
The group joins a growing number of frustrated citizens in the country and abroad who have begun organizing protests against mandates that require people to stay at home or risk being fined or imprisoned.
More than 17 million people have filed for unemployment because of the stay-at-home orders, and the federal government has spent trillions in an attempt to soften the economic blow that the coronavirus has caused. On Tuesday, the hashtag #ReopenAmerica was trending on Twitter.
'We desire to retain our liberty': Michigan anti-quarantine group gains 300,000 followers ahead of planned protest
A Facebook group protesting the Michigan governor's stay-at-home orders has gained more than 300,000 members as of Tuesday.
Michiganders Against Excessive Quarantine experienced an influx of new members after Democratic Gov. Gretchen Whitmer ordered the state to shut down through April.
"A place for Michiganders to organize and work towards a reasonable solution to the covid-19 crisis," reads the group's bio. "We desire to retain our liberty by organizing in large numbers and commanding the attention of our legislators and governor. Our mission is to set a nationwide example by proving the people of Michigan are resilient, courageous, intelligent, and our liberty is valuable. We can overcome covid-19 without putting Michiganders out of work and further damaging our economy."
On Tuesday, an online petition that accused Whitmer of sabotaging the Michigan economy by ordering a state shutdown gained more than 200,000 signatures.
The group joins a growing number of frustrated citizens in the country and abroad who have begun organizing protests against mandates that require people to stay at home or risk being fined or imprisoned.
More than 17 million people have filed for unemployment because of the stay-at-home orders, and the federal government has spent trillions in an attempt to soften the economic blow that the coronavirus has caused. On Tuesday, the hashtag #ReopenAmerica was trending on Twitter.
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You obviously don't actually read what I post. Seriously you keep misquoting or missing the detail of what I say. you totally ignore any opinion that doesn't fit into your view of the world and concept of the truth, you run off Trog who was being quite reasonable for him you have run off Tibs and left a vacuum of nothing but like opinions.
I have said repeatedly that the death number will be closer to accurate than the case numbers. Just tonight. They will be off and will most likely be underreported for the exact reason in the articles I have posted and because they use the same damn scientific principals they use for every other disease and count cases that fit that were not tested due to lack of testing? Do those cases not exist just because they were not able to test? They can and do this same thing for many other diseases after the fact and it isn't dome damn conspiracy. I never said they would be off the same proportions as the count or else I would assume the reported death rate would remain the same.
Try actually reading and digesting what i write rather than just using prejudiced feeling and assume I am wrong.
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Well, how convenient is that? What the article also doesn't say is whether or not they were tested for other illnesses to rule them out. I mean, the article says these deaths were added because of symptoms and medical history. Ok, great. Do you know how many illnesses share the same symptoms as corona virus, and if a person has a co-morbidity, could kill a person just as easily? Going off of symptoms is flawed at best.
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Just wait until the stores can't get food in and people start running out. Keep the nation shut down, sure. Social distancing isn't going to help you much when people start getting hungry and desperate. Hope you are well heeled.
As has been said, wait till people get hungry. Everything changes. You're dead on.
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That is a fair point, I can tell you what I posted about testing is exactly what Dr. Acton in Ohio has reported as their method and the guidance they have received. They have not been told verbatim to count everything. They are at least as reported by Ohio only counting those not tested if they were able to rule out any other reasonable explanation.
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And there are some pretty unique signs that do help to differentiate this is some cases that makes it closer to malaria than flu symptoms particularly in deadly cases. It is part of why some of the ventilator cases have died as they were treating it wrong.
Smart people went to the gun stores first.
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The stupid ***** deemed gardening unnecessary. But liquor stores and planned parent apparently are necessary. One of the best things that a homebound person could engage in and she bans it!! I'm not in Michigan but I'm pissed!