The End of the Race-Norming System in the NFL: Black Players are Watching

[tapeANaspirin2it]

Gotta give 'em a minute. The first one always opens the door and then the flood happens.
Any idiot can see that the best way to handle this is to just use the same test and criteria for all ... But, there will be some who ...
Well, let's just wait for the comments.

It's not that simple though. The only solution would be to do a thorough cognitive test on every single player every year, so each player could be compared to themselves. Do the players want that? Part of the problem with that is there have been stories of guys who try to intentionally tank their cognitive tests to set a low baseline so that if they do get a concussion, they can still probably match their low baseline. That's not good. Kind of defeats the purpose.

If you don't have good individual data then you have to go with some sort of generic baseline comparison. Some sort of norming. How do you do that? You go by statistics. What are stats based on? They are based on a data set, which ultimately means it will boil down to something like an average for various groups.

I really don't think you can use the same baseline for everybody. It has to be at least somewhat customized. So if you don't want data defined by race, then what other groupings do you use? How about college? Position group? Area of the country where you grew up? You run into the same problems. There are smart QBs and dumb QBs but the QB position overall is likely smarter than CB. There are both dumb guys from Bama and smart guys. There are both super intelligent guys from Penn State and merely above average guys.

What is more important, getting a correct as possible diagnosis or being politically correct? If you set the baseline comparison too high then guys will be held out for concussions more often. Set it too low and you have guys with concussions being cleared to play.

What they will do is have a diverse group come up with some sort of new complex data norming that will still piss somebody off.

 

[tapeANaspirin2it]

BTW, none of this concussion stuff is proven. CTE is just a theory. People point to former players getting dementia at relatively young ages, but that happens in the general population as well.

I'd also bet that the NFL used the race norming because it is also used elsewhere like maybe the VA or medicare.

 

[Hypocycloids]

Berm, what does the average white guy who works hard, wants nothing more than to be left alone, tries to treat everyone the same (but doesn't take **** off anyone) make things right?

Reparations my friend, reparations.

 

[JMM]

Reparations my friend, reparations.

I'm sure that will bring us all together.

 

[Hypocycloids]

I disagree with the sentiment as well - it wasn't better in the 80s and 90s. Folks probably think that because they were pretty much in their bubbles of where they lived, and we didn't have instant information, social media, etc. I remember the act of just walking with a black guy that happened to be a good friend of mine, got openly racist comments thrown around - "Look, salt and pepper" "disgusting, stick to your own kind" "Swirl" "status symbol" - and those were the tame ones.\

Bermuda brought up the 3/5ths of a man sentiment from the past - but it is still prevalent in some areas. Race norming in this case absolutely shows that, and it's disgusting.

Speaking of living in a bubble, you're not aware that this kind of talk occurs the other way around? It wouldn't shock anyone had those exact comments been made by a black person.

Give a listen to George Jefferson and Fred Sanford sometime.

 

[NCSteelerfan]

Speaking of living in a bubble, you're not aware that this kind of talk occurs the other way around? It wouldn't shock anyone had those exact comments been made by a black person.

Give a listen to George Jefferson and Fred Sanford sometime.

Of course, let's compare to TV characters.

Oh, and I didn't say the comments were exclusively from white people, but let's not let a moment go by for some to use the "you know they say it too!!!!" commentary. Expected.

 

[SteelBuckeye]

BTW, none of this concussion stuff is proven. CTE is just a theory. People point to former players getting dementia at relatively young ages, but that happens in the general population as well.

I'd also bet that the NFL used the race norming because it is also used elsewhere like maybe the VA or medicare.

In response to the first (longer) part of this, my point was that what was done, testing wise for one group, should be done for both groups. Nothing different. So, if that takes individual testing each year, yes, do that. It really IS as simple as treating people equally in terms of how the testing is administered and the results interpreted. Rather than assigning one race a lower baseline because you assume they, as a whole, are less intelligent.

NFL players take individual cognitive baseline tests each year. The results are used, in part, to determine a player's ability to clear concussion protocol. So, it's not like the NFL would be put out by conducting individual baseline tests. They already do,

Also, assuming the NFL used race norming because it was used by the VA or Medicare; it is still a discriminatory standard and practice.

 

[Sarge]

The only solution would be to do a thorough cognitive test on every single player every year, so each player could be compared to themselves.

This is the only way, if your intention is to do it right. In the military, Soldiers and civilians that deploy go through this annually. It was done as a way to monitor for TBI. I am actually due in April. When they started it, you sat down and do the cognitive test that sets the baseline. The comparison is made annually. Only takes about 10 minutes or so.

If the US Military can do it for organizations this large, the NFL should be a cake walk. This stuff is done at every military installation, so having it local to each team really isn't a problem. It can be done, if they really want to do it.

 

[JMM]

This is the only way, if your intention is to do it right. In the military, Soldiers and civilians that deploy go through this annually. It was done as a way to monitor for TBI. I am actually due in April. When they started it, you sat down and do the cognitive test that sets the baseline. The comparison is made annually. Only takes about 10 minutes or so.

If the US Military can do it for organizations this large, the NFL should be a cake walk. This stuff is done at every military installation, so having it local to each team really isn't a problem. It can be done, if they really want to do it.

Sarge, out of curiosity how do they test you? Do they have you remember a string of numbers, words, etc.? Might not be a bad idea for anyone actually, just folks can get a baseline for heart condition, gut condition, etc. and as they age, there are records to refer to.

 

[Hypocycloids]

Of course, let's compare to TV characters.

My bad, I shoulda to put a after that comment. Anyone else would have known it was a joke.

Oh, and I didn't say the comments were exclusively from white people, but let's not let a moment go by for some to use the "you know they say it too!!!!" commentary. Expected.

What was expected are your double standards.

Had the thought of black people also making those same comments occurred to you, you would have realized your comment did nothing to support your argument and perhaps you would have reached for some other white guilt liberal talking point.

 

[NCSteelerfan]

My bad, I shoulda to put a after that comment. Anyone else would have known it was a joke.


What was expected are your double standards.

Had the thought of black people also making those same comments occurred to you, you would have realized your comment did nothing to support your argument and perhaps you would have reached for some other white guilt liberal talking point.

What double standards? Why is the argument from certain people to do a "Well, they say it too. So, it's a double standard"? What does that even mean - please expand on this point, and rid me of my "white guilt liberal talking points".

Hint - I'm hardly a "liberal", and nope - no white guilt here. Not even an ounce of fragility. Just someone who doesn't deal in talking points, knows history and reality, and realizes every topic/situation has nuance - not just one size talking point fits all.

Oh, and feel free to address the original point of this thread concerning the differences in assessing cognitive ability based on race.

 

[Lunar]

Sing me a song, you're a singer
Do me a wrong, you're a bringer of evil
The devil is never a maker
The less that you give, you're a taker
So it's on and on and on, it's heaven and hell

 

[Hypocycloids]

I disagree, at least where I grew up in Western Pa and even when I was stationed in Texas, Racism was horrible. The KKK was burning crosses and had meetings at the local football field. I got into a major fist fight at the Abilene shopping mall after a group called my bud a stupid "Spick" as we walked past them. I can even remember being in line at a shoe store as a kid and the clerk wouldn't ring up the Black family ahead of us. Man, did my mother let that piece of **** have it. I feel like, and it's just my perception as a pale *** white dude, that racism isn't as bad as it was in the 80's or 90's.

The Ku Klux Klan (/ˌkuː klʌks ˈklæn, ˌkjuː-/),https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan#cite_note-26 commonly shortened to the KKK or the Klan, is an American white supremacist terrorist and hate group whose primary targets are African Americans, Jews, Latinos, Asian Americans, Catholics, Native Americans[25][26] as well as immigrants, leftists, homosexuals, Muslims, and atheists.[27][28][29]

Yeah they hate everybody not a lily white Southerner.

 

[Hypocycloids]

Bermuda brought up the 3/5ths of a man sentiment from the past - but it is still prevalent in some areas. Race norming in this case absolutely shows that, and it's disgusting.

Yeah 3/4 still prevalent in some areas, as in slavery.

And if NFL race norming wasn't enough, these two stories should really get you peoples panties knotted up.

Peterson compares NFL labor to slavery | FOX Sports

 

[Hypocycloids]

Hey great post. Addresses the issue at hand. This is what it should have been from the get go. But it wasnt. No, berm had to go straight for the popcorn and the 3/5 person . Thats my issue. Thats what im tired of. Thats what i addressed.

 

[Hypocycloids]

and you should pay attention to what im addressing.

No. You're a racist!

 

[tapeANaspirin2it]

This is the only way, if your intention is to do it right. In the military, Soldiers and civilians that deploy go through this annually. It was done as a way to monitor for TBI. I am actually due in April. When they started it, you sat down and do the cognitive test that sets the baseline. The comparison is made annually. Only takes about 10 minutes or so.

If the US Military can do it for organizations this large, the NFL should be a cake walk. This stuff is done at every military installation, so having it local to each team really isn't a problem. It can be done, if they really want to do it.

Military tests for it now as does the NFL. But what about a guy who played in the 90s? What about a guy who was blown up in the Gulf war? There were no tests back then so it was necessary to come up with some sort of generic baseline.

My dad was a Vietnam vet and late in his life he went to work at the VA because he wanted to help vets. He was always frustrated because he’d deal with Vietnam vets who were all ****** up from war wounds and agent orange and everything else and would get a 10% disability and then some 20 year old jackass who got drunk and fell off a truck was getting 30. That was because it was hard to have data on old wounds while the young people had everything documented.

On a side note, Vietnam vets were treated like animals at the VA. My dad didn’t tell coworkers he was a vet. Then one day he was talking to another Vietnam vet about what bases they were on over there. Later his coworker says to him, I didn’t know you were a Vietnam vet, you seem normal.

 

[NCSteelerfan]

Military tests for it now as does the NFL. But what about a guy who played in the 90s? What about a guy who was blown up in the Gulf war? There were no tests back then so it was necessary to come up with some sort of generic baseline.

My dad was a Vietnam vet and late in his life he went to work at the VA because he wanted to help vets. He was always frustrated because he’d deal with Vietnam vets who were all ****** up from war wounds and agent orange and everything else and would get a 10% disability and then some 20 year old jackass who got drunk and fell off a truck was getting 30. That was because it was hard to have data on old wounds while the young people had everything documented.

On a side note, Vietnam vets were treated like animals at the VA. My dad didn’t tell coworkers he was a vet. Then one day he was talking to another Vietnam vet about what bases they were on over there. Later his coworker says to him, I didn’t know you were a Vietnam vet, you seem normal.

I see what you are getting at as they really don't have a baseline for the individual players, particularly older ones. The thing is they have set a baseline on the cognitive impairment based on race norming. So, with that in mind - and in keeping things equal - black players should be assessed at the same baseline as white players.

 

[bermudasteel]

You're a buffoon. Go play in traffic.

Funny how you can't answer the questions posed to you. The little bit of credibility you have here is diminishing, Bleeder.

#NeedATourniquet???

 

[bermudasteel]

Speaking of living in a bubble, you're not aware that this kind of talk occurs the other way around? It wouldn't shock anyone had those exact comments been made by a black person.

Give a listen to George Jefferson and Fred Sanford sometime.

NC didn't say it wasn't a two-way street. His/my memories are from a personal stand point.

For those that have been here long enough - they know my wife is about a Caucasian as it can get - she's from FINLAND. Some many stories I can share about the last 27 years. From both sides of the fence, Stewey, both sides...

 

[SteelBuckeye]

NC didn't say it wasn't a two-way street. His/my memories are from a personal stand point.

For those that have been here long enough - they know my wife is about a Caucasian as it can get - she's from FINLAND. Some many stories I can share about the last 27 years. From both sides of the fence, Stewey, both sides...

More than one side to the fence ...
When my son (Bi-racial) was about 5, we stopped in a WalMart. Can't remember what it was he wanted, but I said no. He threw a fit. So, I swatted him on his *** about three times. This Latino lady runs over and starts speaking to him in Spanish. My son says:

"Lady, I can't understand you. I'm not supposed to talk to strangers anyway"

The lady says (in English): "Where are your parents? Is this Black man hurting you?"

To which my son said: "Black man? OH! You mean MY DAD! He spanked me because I was being bad."

Whereupon, a Latino man runs up and starts yelling at the lady. "See, I told you to mind your own business. Anybody with eyes can see that they are father and son."

The lady thought my son, with his brown hair and darker than White, but light skin complexion, was Latino; and I was some "Black man" trying to abduct him from WalMart.
My son, and I still laugh about this all the time.

 

[bermudasteel]

Yeah 3/4 still prevalent in some areas, as in slavery.

And if NFL race norming wasn't enough, these two stories should really get you peoples panties knotted up.

Peterson compares NFL labor to slavery | FOX Sports

The fraction is 3/5th's not 3/4 (perhaps a typo?)

If you can't see the point that Colin is making in that video - I don't know what else to say and that is the first time I saw the clip.

Let me be clear, again, I had to take a vacay because of some of the openly racist comments a while back. If that is the way some feel - that just the way it is...But you can damn sure believe that I won't stand silent if a story/comment is made that could possibly shed light or enlighten those that may not understand.

I'm actually quite impressed w/ the majority of the comments in this thread...

 

[bermudasteel]

More than one side to the fence ...
When my son (Bi-racial) was about 5, we stopped in a WalMart. Can't remember what it was he wanted, but I said no. He threw a fit. So, I swatted him on his *** about three times. This Latino lady runs over and starts speaking to him in Spanish. My son says:

"Lady, I can't understand you. I'm not supposed to talk to strangers anyway"

The lady says (in English): "Where are your parents? Is this Black man hurting you?"

To which my son said: "Black man? OH! You mean MY DAD! He spanked me because I was being bad."

Whereupon, a Latino man runs up and starts yelling at the lady. "See, I told you to mind your own business. Anybody with eyes can see that they are father and son."

The lady thought my son, with his brown hair and darker than White, but light skin complexion, was Latino; and I was some "Black man" trying to abduct him from WalMart.
My son, and I still laugh about this all the time.

My turn...(I may have shared this before)

My wife was pregnant with our son (about 8 months at the time) and we were living in Huntsville, AL at the time. My eldest daughter, Jacq was 7 and our middle daughter, Kiara, was 2 years old.

It was a hot and muggy morning and Sonja decided to take her girls to the park for some exercise and fresh air.

Well, mommy gets the girls situated on the swings and then waddled over to the shade of a tree to watch---not even 15 feet away.

Let's call the next character "Karen", because like today's description, she felt that everything belongs to her regardless of who actually 'owns it'...

Jacq is pushing Kiara in the swings and they are having a great time. Karen walks up to Jacq and moves her to the side and then proceeds to pick up Kiara from the swing and put "Little Donald" in the swing.

Jacq instantly gets upset and Kiara is crying.

These are the exact words from Karen, "You little black girls need to be inside doing some homework and not at the park by yourselves playing!"

Did I mention that my wife was 15 feet away in the shade? And very pregnant???

According to Jacq, she tells the story so well even to this day, "Mommy came rolling over to Karen and simply asked, 'why are you touching my daughters'?"

Karen replied, "Are these black girls yours?"

My wife, "Yes. And my Black husband is on the way with the police".

Karen picked up Little Donald and quickly scurried away never to be seen again...

 

[SteelBuckeye]

My eyes are somewhat downward slanted.
So, around 1993 I'm stationed at Great Lakes. A bunch of us decide to head into Chicago and go bar hopping.
Last club of the night and I'm dancing with this HOT Asian girl. During a slow dance, she suddenly pulls away and holds me at arms length. I'm thinking "Hell, she's just now noticing I popped a wheelie?"
She looks into my eyes and says "Isn't it great that we finally made it to America?"
I'm confused. "What do you mean finally made it to America? I was born in the U.S."
Her: "You don't have to pretend with me. It's much better for us here. Amer-Asian kids are more accepted."
Me: "I'm Black"
Her: "You don't have to pretend anymore."

 

[bermudasteel]

My eyes are somewhat downward slanted.
So, around 1993 I'm stationed at Great Lakes. A bunch of us decide to head into Chicago and go bar hopping.
Last club of the night and I'm dancing with this HOT Asian girl. During a slow dance, she suddenly pulls away and holds me at arms length. I'm thinking "Hell, she's just now noticing I popped a wheelie?"
She looks into my eyes and says "Isn't it great that we finally made it to America?"
I'm confused. "What do you mean finally made it to America? I was born in the U.S."
Her: "You don't have to pretend with me. It's much better for us here. Amer-Asian kids are more accepted."
Me: "I'm Black"
Her: "You don't have to pretend anymore."

I'm still ROTFFLMAO at "Hell, she's just now noticing I popped a wheelie?"!!!

******* HILARIOUS!!!