Uncle Jarvis

[Vader]

How about the "Landing with full body weight on the QB" penalty? I hate the ******* NFL most of the time these days. I watch with clinical interest now, not much emotional interest. To be honest Fantasy Football is the only reason non Steeler games hold any interest for me whatsoever at this point. I used to never miss a game just because I loved to watch.

There are lots of rules that I don't care for but I understand them. I don't like the falling on the QB rule. It's stupid because it is forcing refs to try to figure out "full body weight" and positioning. I don't play FF so I normally watch other games because I don't like certain teams and like watching them lose.

 

[ark steel]

I didn't have a problem with the defenseless WR rule. I hated the "can't hit him with your helmet... crown of your helmet... or maybe it's the facemask." That rule is so stupid because going full speed it's almost impossible for a ref to figure out. Guys are taught to see what they hit... which by necessity means their facemasks are going to hit someone.

Maybe, I should clarify that it is the enforcement of the rule that I don't like.

 

[ark steel]

There are lots of rules that I don't care for but I understand them. I don't like the falling on the QB rule. It's stupid because it is forcing refs to try to figure out "full body weight" and positioning. I don't play FF so I normally watch other games because I don't like certain teams and like watching them lose.

I don't play FF because I think it is a part of what is ruining the game. Another factor is the same as yours. I like watching some teams lose and don't want to have to cheer for any of their players.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

I will add this.

I am a bit disenfranchised with "sports" right now and that includes the NFL and the Steelers.

The constant milking of EVERYONE for every last ******* nickle can be sickening. And I really don't think there is any organization, entity or individual above it or morally better than others.

Maybe it's the tone of the country right now with such a huge division between the wealthy and their employees. I'm sure that has spilled into my love of sport and competition. But I will be honest and say I am more cynical of the Steelers organization than I ever have been.

Does that make me less of a "fan"? I'm not sure. I still root for them on Sundays. They are still my favorite team.

This is much, much different from how I felt in 2006. Let's face it, the economy was better back then. There might have been less divisiveness. This was before the financial crisis and the revelation of just how ******* greedy corporate America was getting. The Steelers looked on the verge of a dynasty. I was a new father.

Just as with the country, I can honestly say what has transpired to the Steelers since 2006 and has been less than awe inspiring. Just like the country, I think the Steelers got a bit greedy. Frivolous. The 2006 draft was bells and whistles (WR's and a 5th round QB). We had a huge need after Jeff Hartings and could have had the best center in a generation (and I still think Mangold is better than Mack or Pouncey). Instead we started the "milking the 30-year old" philosophy. We started neglecting the trenches, pandering to "new NFL" and our new "franchise QB".

After 2006, all signs pointed to Whisenhunt as the next coach in everything but name. Instead, everything unraveled, the young QB got to throw his weight around on coaching decisions and we've gone down a path of very questionable philosophies. From Tomlin to Arians to draft picks to the rotating O-line coaches.

Has there been a decision since 2007 that has been 100% correct? That you can't find some degree of questions about?

I don't know.

I just don't get the Steelers vibe much anymore. They look the same as everyone else. They all make stupid decisions. They are all frivolous with picks. They all throw money around sometimes on the stupidest things. The Steelers to me aren't acting like an elite franchise anymore. They are acting like everyone else.

I expect a decent season, but it's hard for me to get excited when for every up, we just fall down into stupid football and ugly losses. Might not be this year, but next. This team acts different after 11-5 seasons than they do with 8-8 seasons. They act like they chase their tails and make decisions like the wind blows from year-to-year. It's very hard to have faith in that method of management. It's hard not to ask WTF? 4-5 times a year now.

It's like everything else. Politics, finance, sports, TV.... no conviction to principles or philosophies. Just jumping around with the way public opinion goes. Maybe I'm getting too old, but I just see through the bullshit on so many levels from this organization.

Pretty negative, huh? But that's kind of how I feel on a lot of things right now and that's where my pulse is at. No wonder I think the same about my football team.

I agree that the Steelers seemed to change in philosophy towards satiating the franchise QB, however I don't think Tomlin's hiring had much to do with it.15-1 did. Everything Ben did turned to gold and it influenced the Steelers and Cowher towards that "franchise QB > all" philosophy. There was never a "we can't win without our QB" sentiment before Roethlisberger. The 2006 season was ultimate proof of this. Cowher finally winning it all plus having a capable QB was too much for him. That whole season was phoned in. Cowher's heart wasn't in it anymore. Time to start over.
Unfortunately for the team, how do you 'start over' with a championship calibre team? Tomlin and Arians came in and doubled down on the championship defense and franchise QB, which led to another SB but was hard as hell to transition from. The edict had to come down from the Rooney's themselves before anything changed because the expectation was that we could win with what we had, even when we eventually couldn't.

I am encouraged by the past few seasons because now finally the entire team has realized that a healthy Ben and a **** o-line aren't enough, resting on a previous championship team ain't enough.

 

[scstillerfan]

I am a bit disenfranchised with "sports" right now and that includes the NFL and the Steelers.

The constant milking of EVERYONE for every last ******* nickle can be sickening. And I really don't think there is any organization, entity or individual above it or morally better than others.

My feelings exactly. And it transcends to the college level as well. This is the first year I didn't watch one second of the Final Four NCAA basketball tournament. I quit MLB after the second strike, although I love the game and still go to minor league games. Never been a huge NBA fan, but I used to watch the finals. And even my interest in hockey is less. NASCAR died in the late 1990s though I'll catch a few laps now and then. I don't spend money on merchandise anymore.

Maybe it is age, and with it the wisdom of how meaningless sport really is compared to other parts of life. Putting college athletes on pedestals when most don't even belong in college. Professionals being paid millions to play a game. And they seem to be above the law.

 

[Vader]

I'll never believe Cowher mailed it in. Everybody talks about how great the team played this year at 8-8 and how great they came on at the end of the year. The EXACT same thing happened in 06 EXCEPT that Ben had gone through a bike accident, a concussion and appendectomy surgery. Saying that Cowher mailed it in is just wrong. I guess Tomlin has mailed it in the past 2 years? He had a healthy Ben, more experienced Ben and all his draft picks ready for prime time. I guess Tomlin's heart isn't in it anymore.

 

[scstillerfan]

I'll never believe Cowher mailed it in. Everybody talks about how great the team played this year at 8-8 and how great they came on at the end of the year. The EXACT same thing happened in 06 EXCEPT that Ben had gone through a bike accident, a concussion and appendectomy surgery. Saying that Cowher mailed it in is just wrong. I guess Tomlin has mailed it in the past 2 years? He had a healthy Ben, more experienced Ben and all his draft picks ready for prime time. I guess Tomlin's heart isn't in it anymore.

Agree, I don't get the "Cowher mailed it in" BS. When you look at what happened, they were lucky to finish 8-8.

 

[SteelerAl]

I'll never believe Cowher mailed it in. Everybody talks about how great the team played this year at 8-8 and how great they came on at the end of the year. The EXACT same thing happened in 06 EXCEPT that Ben had gone through a bike accident, a concussion and appendectomy surgery. Saying that Cowher mailed it in is just wrong. I guess Tomlin has mailed it in the past 2 years? He had a healthy Ben, more experienced Ben and all his draft picks ready for prime time. I guess Tomlin's heart isn't in it anymore.

Well, Ben was healthy for the first 9 games of 2012 anyway (and the record was 6-3).

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

I'll never believe Cowher mailed it in. Everybody talks about how great the team played this year at 8-8 and how great they came on at the end of the year. The EXACT same thing happened in 06 EXCEPT that Ben had gone through a bike accident, a concussion and appendectomy surgery. Saying that Cowher mailed it in is just wrong. I guess Tomlin has mailed it in the past 2 years? He had a healthy Ben, more experienced Ben and all his draft picks ready for prime time. I guess Tomlin's heart isn't in it anymore.

I suppose we'll have to disagree then. Cowher won with Kordell Stewart at Quarterback, then can't win with an injured Ben?

As I said, 15-1 changed this team from living and dying as a unit to living and dying without BBR.

 

[Vader]

Well, Ben was healthy for the first 9 games of 2012 anyway (and the record was 6-3).

Yes, then they lose two games against the Rats 13-10 and clowns 20-14. Ben comes back against the rats and wins. So they are 7-5 (exact same record they had when they won the SB in 2005). They then lose to SD 34-24. Ben goes 22 of 42 for 285 yards 3 Tds and 1 pick. Then they lose to Dallas in OT 27-24. Ben plays another good game with 2 Tds, 1 pick, 24 of 40 for 339 yards. The defense gives up over 400 yards. They then lose to the bungles and beat the clowns to round out an 8-8 season where Ben played all but 2 games. So if they could have defeated the might bungles and their defense didn't go to **** they could have made the playoffs. But I guess Tomlin could have mailed it in that year as well.

 

[Vader]

I suppose we'll have to disagree then. Cowher won with Kordell Stewart at Quarterback, then can't win with an injured Ben?

As I said, 15-1 changed this team from living and dying as a unit to living and dying without BBR.

And Tomlin won with Ben then hasn't been able to win for 2 years with a healthy Ben. Did he give up? Maybe it is time for a change? That's what happens when you try to put the "quitter" term on a coach for ONE season when his best player almost died in a car crash, had a concussion and had appendectomy surgery. Some how Cowher is a quitter for an 8-8 season (when they finished strong) but Tomlin isn't even when the records are the same and Tomlin had his QB 100% healthy. Sorry but it makes no sense at all. You can't blame Cowher for ONE average season with a hurt Ben but give Tomlin a pass with a healthy Ben.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

And Tomlin won with Ben then hasn't been able to win for 2 years with a healthy Ben. Did he give up? Maybe it is time for a change? That's what happens when you try to put the "quitter" term on a coach for ONE season when his best player almost died in a car crash, had a concussion and had appendectomy surgery. Some how Cowher is a quitter for an 8-8 season (when they finished strong) but Tomlin isn't even when the records are the same and Tomlin had his QB 100% healthy. Sorry but it makes no sense at all. You can't blame Cowher for ONE average season with a hurt Ben but give Tomlin a pass with a healthy Ben.

I'm not giving either guy a pass. Read my post again:

I agree that the Steelers seemed to change in philosophy towards satiating the franchise QB, however I don't think Tomlin's hiring had much to do with it.15-1 did. Everything Ben did turned to gold and it influenced the Steelers and Cowher towards that "franchise QB > all" philosophy. There was never a "we can't win without our QB" sentiment before Roethlisberger. The 2006 season was ultimate proof of this. Cowher finally winning it all plus having a capable QB was too much for him. That whole season was phoned in. Cowher's heart wasn't in it anymore. Time to start over.
Unfortunately for the team, how do you 'start over' with a championship calibre team? Tomlin and Arians came in and doubled down on the championship defense and franchise QB, which led to another SB but was hard as hell to transition from. The edict had to come down from the Rooney's themselves before anything changed because the expectation was that we could win with what we had, even when we eventually couldn't.

I am encouraged by the past few seasons because now finally the entire team has realized that a healthy Ben and a **** o-line aren't enough, resting on a previous championship team ain't enough.

 

[Vader]

You said Cowher "phoned in the whole season". And that "Cowher's heart wasn't in it". You blame Cowher. Then you blame Rooney for Tomlin's issues. You even said that "The edict had to come down from the Rooney's themselves before anything changed because the expectation was that we could win with what we had, even when we eventually couldn't."

So you gave Tomlin a pass.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

You said Cowher "phoned in the whole season". And that "Cowher's heart wasn't in it". You blame Cowher. Then you blame Rooney for Tomlin's issues. You even said that "The edict had to come down from the Rooney's themselves before anything changed because the expectation was that we could win with what we had, even when we eventually couldn't."

So you gave Tomlin a pass.

Saying that the head coach had to be told to change things up by his boss is giving him a pass? Heh. Okay.

 

[Vader]

Saying that the head coach had to be told to change things up by his boss is giving him a pass? Heh. Okay.

What has Tomlin changed from? Do they still have a franchise QB? yup. What has changed? Tomlin doesn't control FA signing or retaining players. Especially those that just leave.

Also being told to "change things up" is hardly the same as saying "he lost his heart and mailed in a season". Do you believe Tomlin has lost heart and has mailed in the past 2 seasons?

 

[ark steel]

I'm not giving either guy a pass either, but that last season of Cowher finished almost exactly the way last year finished. Finished the last eight games at 6-2, but few, if any of those wins was against a team that finished with a winning record that year. There is the "except" you note, but the result is the same, only beat teams that were average-bad. IIRC.

In the first half of last year, we weren't even beating the bad teams. It was an all around poor effort by the team. There was one play I remember from the Vikings game where it was 3rd and something where Ben probably could have run for the first, but he looks for the pass and throws incomplete. The way the team played in the last half of the year, I believe he runs for that first down.

With the way the team finished the year, I have some hope. I believe we have improved the Defense by removing the need for Troy to play down in the ILB position and replacing Hood. Upgrades in those two positions, should help our DB's. We still have to wait and see how much of an upgrade these were, I suppose.

We did better than I expected without Wallace last year, but I don't think anyone could have predicted Cotchery to have 10 TD's. I'm not sure how we are going to do without Sanders and Cotchery next year.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

What has Tomlin changed from? Do they still have a franchise QB? yup. What has changed? Tomlin doesn't control FA signing or retaining players. Especially those that just leave.

Also being told to "change things up" is hardly the same as saying "he lost his heart and mailed in a season". Do you believe Tomlin has lost heart and has mailed in the past 2 seasons?

What has changed is the over reliance on Ben. Our run game was absolutely pathetic, and at some points, non existent. Focusing on an even offensive attack is a big change over the last few years of Arians.

As for your second sentence, I agree that it's much different, because Tomlin didn't change anything. He was doing the same thing he had been doing since day 1 of the job.

Cowher changed. As I said, he put the team in an injured Ben's hands. This guy was in a motorcycle crash and could have died, why rush him back, especially when you've proven for years you can win with a strong running game and defense?

So no, I don't think Tomlin is going through the same thing Cowher did. In fact, I think the opposite - he has to go against what he's been used to and finally has to put the team in his image. To date the transition has been far too slow and slowed even further by Ben's expected resistance to not being the be all end all of the team like he was when Tomlin was first hired.

del made a very good point - The Steelers were following the mold set by the NFL, where the QB is king. Tons of other teams have done the same - after the Packers magical Super Bowl run which was an excellent display of teamwork the Pack doubled down on Rodgers and all it's gotten them is first and second round exits. Peyton's choking is so thorough that even Jim Irsay lamented focusing too much on him and not the overall team. meanwhile the Seattle Seahawks won a championship with thorough team play and excellent depth, which used to be the Steelers MO.

 

[antdrewjosh]

I know everyone thinks I'm Pro Tomlin. Im really not. I liked Cowher too. I just have a problem with the accountability both are held too. Like for instance the way Vader is asking Deacon if Tomlin lost his heart and mailed it in because Deacon suggested Cowher did. Why is that ok to ask but not the other way around. I know most say well Tomlin is not allowed down seasons he has Ben. But what does that mean? Franchise QBs are not the only key to success. You still need a great team surrounding him. The Dolphins had Marino. ELway had some down years. I just think there are more factors like injuries, getting older, poor drafts alot of factors. I didnt include poor coaching because at the point in their careers when they had or as in Tomlin case having down seasons they both had proven they can coach to me. I ask these questions cause i just dont remeber calls for Cowher head like I do Tomlins. I do remember people saying Cowher was dumb for sticking with Kordell but not the he sucks cant coach criticisms I see for Tomlin. I've always taken pride in the way the Steelers treated their coaches it was part of the mystique of being a Steeler fan for me So its not easy for me to say just fire the coach. Does that mean Tomlin gets a free pass of course not but it will take more then two 8-8 seasons to want him gone. Franchise QB or not. Just trying to make my stance on things clearer. Probably didnt.

 

[Vader]

What has changed is the over reliance on Ben. Our run game was absolutely pathetic, and at some points, non existent. Focusing on an even offensive attack is a big change over the last few years of Arians.

As for your second sentence, I agree that it's much different, because Tomlin didn't change anything. He was doing the same thing he had been doing since day 1 of the job.

Cowher changed. As I said, he put the team in an injured Ben's hands. This guy was in a motorcycle crash and could have died, why rush him back, especially when you've proven for years you can win with a strong running game and defense?

So no, I don't think Tomlin is going through the same thing Cowher did. In fact, I think the opposite - he has to go against what he's been used to and finally put the team in his image. To date the transition has been far too slow and slowed even further by Ben's expected resistence to not being the be all end all of the team like he was when Tomlin was first hired.

So which is it? Did Cowher rush Ben back to win or did he mail the season in? Why rush Ben back if he is checked out? It makes NO sense. Also Bettis had retired and they had Parker at RB. Do you know that Parker carried more during the 06 than any of his other seasons? He had 1494 yards in 06. They passed 56 more times than they ran even though they were behind a lot during that season. So they did try and succeed in running the football.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

So which is it? Did Cowher rush Ben back to win or did he mail the season in? Why rush Ben back if he is checked out? It makes NO sense. Also Bettis had retired and they had Parker at RB. Do you know that Parker carried more during the 06 than any of his other seasons? He had 1494 yards in 06. They passed 56 more times than they ran even though they were behind a lot during that season. So they did try and succeed in running the football.

You're being purposely obtuse again so i'm done trying to bother with you.

 

[Vader]

I know everyone thinks I'm Pro Tomlin. Im really not. I liked Cowher too. I just have a problem with the accountability both are held too. Like for instance the way Vader is asking Deacon if Tomlin lost his heart and mailed it in because Deacon suggested Cowher did. Why is that ok to ask but not the other way around. I know most say well Tomlin is not allowed down seasons he has Ben. But what does that mean? Franchise QBs are not the only key to success. You still need a great team surrounding him. The Dolphins had Marino. ELway had some down years. I just think there are more factors like injuries, getting older, poor drafts alot of factors. I didnt include poor coaching because at the point in their careers when they had or as in Tomlin case having down seasons they both had proven they can coach to me. I ask these questions cause i just dont remeber calls for Cowher head like I do Tomlins. I do remember people saying Cowher was dumb for sticking with Kordell but not the he sucks cant coach criticisms I see for Tomlin. I've always taken pride in the way the Steelers treated their coaches it was part of the mystique of being a Steeler fan for me So its not easy for me to say just fire the coach. Does that mean Tomlin gets a free pass of course not but it will take more then two 8-8 seasons to want him gone. Franchise QB or not. Just trying to make my stance on things clearer. Probably didnt.

Then you're memory is faulty. There were entire threads dedicated to firing Cowher. I wanted him gone after 3 bad years.

Also has anybody every talked about Tomlin losing heart except me asking in comparison to the hell Cowher catches on here for ONE 8-8 season? I don't think Cowher or any successful NFL coach "mails it in". I'm not suggesting Tomlin did. I just don't understand how Cowher mailed it in but Tomlin hasn't. One has a perfectly healthy QB while one doesn't. But the one that does have a healthy QB is given a pass about not having heart.

 

[Vader]

You're being purposely obtuse again so i'm done trying to bother with you.

So you get caught in a "I can't defend what I just said" moment and can't handle it. I gave you the stats but you can't handle that either. Good I'm done with you too.

 

[AggieSteel]

I will add this.

I am a bit disenfranchised with "sports" right now and that includes the NFL and the Steelers.

The constant milking of EVERYONE for every last ******* nickle can be sickening. And I really don't think there is any organization, entity or individual above it or morally better than others.

Maybe it's the tone of the country right now with such a huge division between the wealthy and their employees. I'm sure that has spilled into my love of sport and competition. But I will be honest and say I am more cynical of the Steelers organization than I ever have been.

Does that make me less of a "fan"? I'm not sure. I still root for them on Sundays. They are still my favorite team.

This is much, much different from how I felt in 2006. Let's face it, the economy was better back then. There might have been less divisiveness. This was before the financial crisis and the revelation of just how ******* greedy corporate America was getting. The Steelers looked on the verge of a dynasty. I was a new father.

Just as with the country, I can honestly say what has transpired to the Steelers since 2006 and has been less than awe inspiring. Just like the country, I think the Steelers got a bit greedy. Frivolous. The 2006 draft was bells and whistles (WR's and a 5th round QB). We had a huge need after Jeff Hartings and could have had the best center in a generation (and I still think Mangold is better than Mack or Pouncey). Instead we started the "milking the 30-year old" philosophy. We started neglecting the trenches, pandering to "new NFL" and our new "franchise QB".

After 2006, all signs pointed to Whisenhunt as the next coach in everything but name. Instead, everything unraveled, the young QB got to throw his weight around on coaching decisions and we've gone down a path of very questionable philosophies. From Tomlin to Arians to draft picks to the rotating O-line coaches.

Has there been a decision since 2007 that has been 100% correct? That you can't find some degree of questions about?

I don't know.

I just don't get the Steelers vibe much anymore. They look the same as everyone else. They all make stupid decisions. They are all frivolous with picks. They all throw money around sometimes on the stupidest things. The Steelers to me aren't acting like an elite franchise anymore. They are acting like everyone else.

I expect a decent season, but it's hard for me to get excited when for every up, we just fall down into stupid football and ugly losses. Might not be this year, but next. This team acts different after 11-5 seasons than they do with 8-8 seasons. They act like they chase their tails and make decisions like the wind blows from year-to-year. It's very hard to have faith in that method of management. It's hard not to ask WTF? 4-5 times a year now.

It's like everything else. Politics, finance, sports, TV.... no conviction to principles or philosophies. Just jumping around with the way public opinion goes. Maybe I'm getting too old, but I just see through the bullshit on so many levels from this organization.

Pretty negative, huh? But that's kind of how I feel on a lot of things right now and that's where my pulse is at. No wonder I think the same about my football team.

I appreciate the passion, and while I share a similar sentiment, it's not quite as dramatic. I just really want us to stop coming out flat, only scoring 13 points, losing, and getting our best players killed against the worst teams in the league. Like clockwork

 

[Wingman]

A lot of good posts here and I must add I agree with much of what was said. I think the Cowher mailed it in is a bit harsh. If I remember correctly, I know that is a big if the 8 and 8 season everyone is talking about is the year before his wife's cancer became public knowledge. It ultimately claimed her life. I have lost several family members to the big C and it can go for a few years prior to showing outward signs. I would not be surprised if there was something going on as much as a year before it became public. It would have been very hard to imagine he was a bit preoccupied during that time frame with family issues as well. The job of head coach is fairly intense if you aspire to be great, it would not be that hard for family issues to be the straw that breaks the camels back in those cases. As is often said there are limits to everything tossing those things into the mix with three daughters coming of age and looking at college may have just been more than he could deal with and his football job suffered.

All that is speculation on my part. I am not saying any of it is true. I just think it might be a possibility that is worth considering before we forget that the coaches are not some non entity that has nothing but football to deal with for their entire lives.

 

[deljzc]

My opinion of the 2006 season was not that Cowher or Colbert or Roethlisberger "mailed it in".

What I thought then and I still strongly think now is they wallowed in their Super Bowl victory a bit too much. They didn't put the work in BEFORE the season. I thought the scouting was below par. I thought the self-evaluation of the roster was over inflated (what a surprise). I think they enjoyed their off-season a bit too much and basically didn't work as hard.

When it came time for the season, they all had good intentions of "turning the switch back on", but found out the roster had holes, they were not prepared to be the hunted instead of the hunter and they thought they were better than they were. By the end of the year, Cowher realized how hard it was and didn't want to put that much effort into coaching anymore and the whole thing fell apart. The odd coaching hire process put Tomlin in charge and history is history.

Some might give them a pass on this, but I sort of think how you act as a winner is just as important as how you act as a loser. And I don't think our team acted very well as winners. In my opinion since we won in 2006 we haven't really validated a good season with a good season after. That tells me a lot about how this team is coached and it's leadership qualities.