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2nd amendment outrage

Carrying a gun in your pocket while driving a vehicle is not the smartest way to stay out of trouble. Like this guy found out, if you get stopped it becomes an issue, in this case a deadly one. The two minutes it takes to put it in the glove box or console would have saved a whole buncha grief and in most cases, the cop would never had known it was there.

I would never put it in the glove box as I wouldn't have access if I need it. You know, if it had been lost....Plus that is where I keep my registration....

In any event, I get stopped by the cops, my hands don't leave the steering wheel until the officer says so. I have my license out (along with CC permit) tell him there is a gun in the car (in the location), please advise me of his instructions..
 
If this was cold blooded murder, the cop wouldn't have let his girlfriend live stream the video. My guess is he and/or the guy ****** up. For all we know the guy thought he could handle his gun and the cop would be OK with it.

What struck me was how matter-of-fact the girlfriend was after watching her boyfriend get shot and die.
 
If this was cold blooded murder, the cop wouldn't have let his girlfriend live stream the video. My guess is he and/or the guy ****** up. For all we know the guy thought he could handle his gun and the cop would be OK with it.

What struck me was how matter-of-fact the girlfriend was after watching her boyfriend get shot and die.

I didn't watch the video, but someone at work mentioned this. I read the transcript and, in my head, pictured her screaming and crying, etc. matter-of-fact seems odd.

I agree that either he or the officer ****** up. From reading the transcript of the video, the officer was cursing afterwards like he knew he ****** up. Contrary to 21's stellar analysis, we don't know if the guy was putting his hands back up or kept reaching for his license after the cop told him to show his hands. Sounds like a good normal guy got killed and that is ****** up.

Maybe he did think that he could handle his gun and the cop wouldn't mind, but in my CC permit class, handling your gun with a cop there is a no-no. If you shoot someone, call 911 immediately and, unless you are in immediate danger from other avenues, put the gun on the ground, not back in your holster or pocket or anything.
 
I am saddened by people that otherwise demand respect for the God given rights of citizens giving a pass to bad police officers. Bad cops are not heros, they are not your friends and you won't see it till they abuse you or someone you love.
 
From what I understand the officer asked for his license and registration which were in his pocket. When he went
for his wallet he also informed the officer he had license to conceal and carry. the officer told him not to move and put
his hands up. As he put his hands up the officer shot him 5 times.

This kid got a job right out of high school and had held the same job since 2002 and been promoted. Not a troublemaker.

Our gun culture has officers on edge and skittish. This kid paid with his life for having a tail light out.

You start your post being factual then at the end the a-hole liberal in you comes out.

Gun culture?. Its thug culture that has officers on edge and skittish.

Gun culture is about those millions of law abiding gun owning citizens demanding our 2nd amendment rights not be fringed upon... and the NRA.
That is gun culture son, and it's a good thing.
 
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From what I understand the officer asked for his license and registration which were in his pocket. When he went
for his wallet he also informed the officer he had license to conceal and carry. the officer told him not to move and put
his hands up. As he put his hands up the officer shot him 5 times.

This kid got a job right out of high school and had held the same job since 2002 and been promoted. Not a troublemaker.

Our gun culture has officers on edge and skittish. This kid paid with his life for having a tail light out.

I don't know know where you're getting he put his hands up. According to the girlfriend he was reaching into his pocket.

Overreaction by the cop? Maybe. I don't own guns, but I would think that rule number one if I did would be, don't tell a police officer I have a gun and then reach into my pocket. All of the armchair cops just don't seem to understand...these cops by and large don't hate black people. They aren't just itching to kill somebody that day. Their goal is to get home to their families that night and not in body bags. They have about 1 or 2 seconds to decide if the guy is reaching for his gun or isn't reaching for his gun. You want to risk your life on a split second wrong decision that he isn't? Go ahead.
 
I am saddened by people that otherwise demand respect for the God given rights of citizens giving a pass to bad police officers. Bad cops are not heros, they are not your friends and you won't see it till they abuse you or someone you love.

I'm saddened by people who think they can judge what a person who is out there risking their life every day should have or shouldn't have done in every situation. There is bad policing and then there is imperfect policing wrought from necessity in highly stressful split second situations. Most of these cases end up being the latter, not the former. I can guarantee you every single one of these cops would give anything to have the hindsight we all have when making their decisions.
 
Does anyone know the FACTS at this point? Or are we still in "talking points" mode?
 
Both this situation and the one in Baton Rouge sound like bad policing. I'm not going to try and sugarcoat it.

But bad policing does not always mean a felony murder conviction, nor should it be. I try to tell everyone, Police are deadly weapons that you don't know how to 100% work. You should ALWAYS give anyone carrying a badge and a gun extreme leeway when dealing with them. Don't back talk. Say yes sir, no sir. Understand the power balance (they have it all and you have none). Don't provoke ANYTHING.

The Black Lives Matter movement will tell you that systemic racism and racial profiling BY POLICE FIRST has lead to massive distrust of officers to the point the whole minority culture lacks respect of the profession. And that this lack of respect is partly the cause of why so many don't treat Police like the deadly weapon they are (and with that type of deference and care).

I'm sort of the opposite opinion that the degradation of inner cities into violent hell holes lead Police to police much differently and racially for their own protection. That the violence CAME FIRST to the cities and Police just evolved to combat it the only way they knew how (even if flawed in today's world). But there is no doubt it's a chicken-egg scenario that has constantly spun out of control since the 1960's and now with social media being what it is we are seeing the dark side of policing violent areas for a generation and the massive distrust both directions between the Police and the communities they serve and protect.

I do think the answer will likely lie in a different kind of Policing. They are still the only party in this mess that is smart enough and responsible enough to change and take the first step towards something different. Lord knows the inner cities and minority communities aren't going to change their attitude toward police any time soon. And I have no doubt crime will increase while Police learn a new system. That might just be a side effect minority communities are going to have to accept for a while.
 
Does anyone know the FACTS at this point? Or are we still in "talking points" mode?
Still in talking points mode. Big protest in Dallas with shots fired.
 
Both this situation and the one in Baton Rouge sound like bad policing. I'm not going to try and sugarcoat it.

But bad policing does not always mean a felony murder conviction, nor should it be. I try to tell everyone, Police are deadly weapons that you don't know how to 100% work. You should ALWAYS give anyone carrying a badge and a gun extreme leeway when dealing with them. Don't back talk. Say yes sir, no sir. Understand the power balance (they have it all and you have none). Don't provoke ANYTHING.

The Black Lives Matter movement will tell you that systemic racism and racial profiling BY POLICE FIRST has lead to massive distrust of officers to the point the whole minority culture lacks respect of the profession. And that this lack of respect is partly the cause of why so many don't treat Police like the deadly weapon they are (and with that type of deference and care).

I'm sort of the opposite opinion that the degradation of inner cities into violent hell holes lead Police to police much differently and racially for their own protection. That the violence CAME FIRST to the cities and Police just evolved to combat it the only way they knew how (even if flawed in today's world). But there is no doubt it's a chicken-egg scenario that has constantly spun out of control since the 1960's and now with social media being what it is we are seeing the dark side of policing violent areas for a generation and the massive distrust both directions between the Police and the communities they serve and protect.

I do think the answer will likely lie in a different kind of Policing. They are still the only party in this mess that is smart enough and responsible enough to change and take the first step towards something different. Lord knows the inner cities and minority communities aren't going to change their attitude toward police any time soon. And I have no doubt crime will increase while Police learn a new system. That might just be a side effect minority communities are going to have to accept for a while.

A different kind of policing? What does that look like? Police must wait until someone actually aims or fires at them before they are allowed to respond? God forbid.

I honestly don't know why anyone would be a police officer now. Knowing if you end up in a situation where you feel you have to defend your life, your life is pretty much going to be over anyway.
 
I'm saddened by people who think they can judge what a person who is out there risking their life every day should have or shouldn't have done in every situation. There is bad policing and then there is imperfect policing wrought from necessity in highly stressful split second situations. Most of these cases end up being the latter, not the former. I can guarantee you every single one of these cops would give anything to have the hindsight we all have when making their decisions.

***** I'm a combat veteran what have you done besides sit on your *** in a nice quiet suburb and watch Law and Order reruns? Don't you ever in your cartoon character looking life presume to preach to me about risking life and limb.

What more do you have to see than when it's on videotape? Two cops shoot a guy after tackling him and pinning him down and you justify it because you seen too many police procedural shows so you think LEOs are ifaliable. Then in the situation in MN the guy gets shot after telling the cop he has a legal permitted firearm with him and the cop shoots him for nothing anyway and you don't even question it?

Well I have said before we have let police agencies become too militant and we need to stop that before the push back begins and people start viewing police as an enemy and the system breaks down. Well that's happening now in Dallas with officers shot.
 
Tell me what exactly the "facts" are in this case as opposed to the talking points. There is a women who in a fairly manner of fact manner recounts a very traumatic event of what happened moments before. No the only thing that will happen in the coming days is that she wIll be discredited for something that happened in her past because she and the man looked sketchy by a lot of peoples standards. She will most likely have drug issues or whatever. And then people wI'll discredit her. But the reality is by the tone of the cop's panic he knew he was ****** because she was right. I guess he could have killed her too to silence her but he didn't have the stomach for that.
 
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I'm saddened by people who think they can judge what a person who is out there risking their life every day should have or shouldn't have done in every situation. There is bad policing and then there is imperfect policing wrought from necessity in highly stressful split second situations. Most of these cases end up being the latter, not the former. I can guarantee you every single one of these cops would give anything to have the hindsight we all have when making their decisions.
Ok then let's play out this scenario. A man lives in the woods. He has different political beliefs by many people's standards. He has a lot of stock piled weapons. His neighbor has a beef with him and makes a claim against him. ATF executes a warrent and in the aftermath he is shot and killed. His wife says he was trying to produce his licence to possess the firearms. Their will be no rush to judement by 2nd amendment NRA.folks Really.
 
A different kind of policing? What does that look like? Police must wait until someone actually aims or fires at them before they are allowed to respond? God forbid.

I honestly don't know why anyone would be a police officer now. Knowing if you end up in a situation where you feel you have to defend your life, your life is pretty much going to be over anyway.

Considering most police are just used as tax collectors dressed up with radar guns, I would love a different type of policing....
 
In the LA shooting, the guy was armed and resisting arrest. That's what he gets. In the MN shooting, I think the cop saw the guy reach towards his gun and panicked. (which, btw, if he was reaching for his pocket wouldn't it have been down below his knees?) I get what OFTB is saying too. No way in hell would I want to be a cop today. Obama has divided this country so much by jumping to conclusions about lil Tray Tray, Ferguson etc... he has created the anti-cop sentiment. Without the police we have anarchy. I need more ammo.
 
it's a culture issue.

cops are likely in a heightened state when they pull over a black male in the age range of 16-26 driving a vehicle with dark windows more than they are when they pull over an old white/oriental/black man in a 4-door sedan without tinted windows. It's not a race issue - nor a tinted window issue (for the smartasses) - it's a culture issue.

without looking up stats that can be skewed, we can all collectively agree that the Bloods and Crips and other gangs are mostly populated by black males. I'd guess that there could be an old white man in there somewhere, but that's an anomaly. Gang members are not known for their outward display of respect for police, but are known for their violence and acts of violence.

and, no, not all black males are violent nor are all black males gang members. just like not all white guys are KKK or Nazi sympathizers.

But a stereotype has been created and mushroomed by the media, which uses that to prey on fears of "black guys are coming for war" and "white guys are wanting to put blacks back in chains" - all to get website hits and collect money.

Then our government adds to it by jumping to conclusions and backing media-driven frenzies.

Class warfare
Racial warfare

black lives matter
white lives matter
brown lives matter
all lives matter

pit them all against each other

Divide and conquer

and sheep buy it
 
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Both this situation and the one in Baton Rouge sound like bad policing. I'm not going to try and sugarcoat it.

But bad policing does not always mean a felony murder conviction, nor should it be. I try to tell everyone, Police are deadly weapons that you don't know how to 100% work. You should ALWAYS give anyone carrying a badge and a gun extreme leeway when dealing with them. Don't back talk. Say yes sir, no sir. Understand the power balance (they have it all and you have none). Don't provoke ANYTHING.

The Black Lives Matter movement will tell you that systemic racism and racial profiling BY POLICE FIRST has lead to massive distrust of officers to the point the whole minority culture lacks respect of the profession. And that this lack of respect is partly the cause of why so many don't treat Police like the deadly weapon they are (and with that type of deference and care).

I'm sort of the opposite opinion that the degradation of inner cities into violent hell holes lead Police to police much differently and racially for their own protection. That the violence CAME FIRST to the cities and Police just evolved to combat it the only way they knew how (even if flawed in today's world). But there is no doubt it's a chicken-egg scenario that has constantly spun out of control since the 1960's and now with social media being what it is we are seeing the dark side of policing violent areas for a generation and the massive distrust both directions between the Police and the communities they serve and protect.

I do think the answer will likely lie in a different kind of Policing. They are still the only party in this mess that is smart enough and responsible enough to change and take the first step towards something different. Lord knows the inner cities and minority communities aren't going to change their attitude toward police any time soon. And I have no doubt crime will increase while Police learn a new system. That might just be a side effect minority communities are going to have to accept for a while.
I think this is stated extremely well. And further to that I'm uncomfortable with this being so much about race. The truth is that wherever you go in this world, the poorest people in a society live with the most crime and are much more likely to have contact both negative and I'm sure positive as well with the police. I myself in my life have been pulled over say a total of 7 or 8 times for traffic violations/ check stops, have had a few car break ins that I've had to phone the police about. A few concerns in my neighborhood that I've brought forward. That is my sum total experience. But I think what this matter is largely about is that there is policing by numbers happening. And when you have that you are essentially saying we want numbers on the street and we want to pay a lot of people less money to have that presence. Instead of paying less people more money and getting the pick of the best of the best who are willing to do that job. The police that I know personally including a very close friend consistently tell me their most important tools are their brain and their voice in how they talk to and manage people. But if you want to make policing a less than desirable profession then you will get less than desirable results. And the poorer communities will have more and more confrontations with the police that end tragically for both sides. I will in no way judge that the police officer murdered that man. I will however, say that a busted tail light traffic stop with a man with no criminal record, who by the accounts of his co workers was of very high character that ends that way is worse than bad policing.
Possibly criminally bad policing, but that is for people in knowledge of all the facts to decide in the end.
 
***** I'm a combat veteran what have you done besides sit on your *** in a nice quiet suburb and watch Law and Order reruns? Don't you ever in your cartoon character looking life presume to preach to me about risking life and limb.

What more do you have to see than when it's on videotape? Two cops shoot a guy after tackling him and pinning him down and you justify it because you seen too many police procedural shows so you think LEOs are ifaliable. Then in the situation in MN the guy gets shot after telling the cop he has a legal permitted firearm with him and the cop shoots him for nothing anyway and you don't even question it?

Well I have said before we have let police agencies become too militant and we need to stop that before the push back begins and people start viewing police as an enemy and the system breaks down. Well that's happening now in Dallas with officers shot.

Totally uncalled for. You expressed an opinion as did I. No I have never been in a life or limb situation but I have had good friends who are police officers in DC and had to face these violent thugs in the toilets that are our inner cities every day. I pray for their safety as do their wives and children and I know not ONE who gives a rat's *** if someone is white black or green. In fact several of them are African American and a couple are combat veterans themselves. I know not a ONE who ever wants to have to shoot someone but will do it if they have to save their own life OR the life of their partner. No this is not a job where you are always going to be perfect, not if you want to live.

So **** you *******.

And you know absolutely nothing about my life, by the way. So **** you again.
 
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Considering most police are just used as tax collectors dressed up with radar guns, I would love a different type of policing....

Try living in southeast DC or North Philadelphia where I have lived and then tell me that's what policing is all about.
 
Then in the situation in MN the guy gets shot after telling the cop he has a legal permitted firearm with him and the cop shoots him for nothing anyway and you don't even question it?

And by the way try some reading comprehension sometime because I have questioned the cop in this instance. I have not declared him innocent, I've simply said we don't know everything that happened yet. God forbid someone wait for facts before jumping to conclusions. God forbid someone try to think critically about these situations.
 
Totally uncalled for. You expressed an opinion as did I. No I have never been in a life or limb situation but I have had good friends who are police officers in DC and had to face these violent thugs in the toilets that are our inner cities every day. I pray for their safety as do their wives and children and I know not ONE who gives a rat's *** if someone is white black or green. In fact several of them are African American and a couple are combat veterans themselves. I know not a ONE who ever wants to have to shoot someone but will do it if they have to save their own life OR the life of their partner. No this is not a job where you are always going to be perfect, not if you want to live.

So **** you *******.

And you know absolutely nothing about my life, by the way. So **** you again.
No one can speak to the particular quality of your friends who were former military personnel work as police. However, as a whole the transition of ex military into police services is I believe part of the problem. Obviously, the military does other functions besides warfare. However, their primary and basic training is to survive in combat and part of that is killing the enemy. A police officer's job is to deescalate situations before they come to the point where killing becomes a necessity so that both them and the citizens they serve get to go home at night.
 
No one can speak to the particular quality of your friends who were former military personnel work as police. However, as a whole the transition of ex military into police services is I believe part of the problem. Obviously, the military does other functions besides warfare. However, their primary and basic training is to survive in combat and part of that is killing the enemy. A police officer's job is to deescalate situations before they come to the point where killing becomes a necessity so that both them and the citizens they serve get to go home at night.

You can't "descalate" when someone is reaching for a gun. That's how you die.
 

Starring:
DBS and onefor
 
It is unrealistic to expect people to ignore stereotypes when doing a dangerous job.

Stereotyping is an INSTINCTUAL thing human beings have been doing since the dawn of man and evolved in us for a reason: to protect ourselves. To tell police officers not to stereotype is in essence telling them not to listen to their human instinct when confronted with dangerous situations. It's NOT POSSIBLE.

Of course a black male the ages of 18-27 in a high crime area is more dangerous than a white 40-something in a low crime area. To say otherwise is just stupid and unbelievable. And of course a police officer should treat each case differently until FURTHER INFORMATION is gathered sensually by the officer to "lower his guard".

What we are really debating is how can anyone possibly debate or expect that Police should start every encounter with every citizen on the exact same level of alert, suspicion and internal threat level. That sounds wonderful in theory but in practice that is just not ever going to happen. Until we understand and acknowledge this we can't start to debate ACTIONS after the initial threat assessment officers have to make at the start of each and every interaction with the public. And it helps no one in the minority communities to act dumb and expect officers to treat them 100% the same. They are NOT the same. The communities they live in are NOT the same. The danger is NOT the same.

Racism is a step-by-step process.

It starts with a healthy, ingrained human ability to stereotype based on experience and factual data. We all stereotype. It's what helped keep our ancestors alive.

What happens after stereotyping is bigotry. Bigotry is when you start to resent or dislike TRUE stereotypes about a culture, race, sexual orientation, sex or any segment of the population. Bigotry can be justified or not justified. There is nothing illegal about bigotry (although most would argue it's immoral).

Racism is when you start to ACT on your bigotry against the law of the land. When your actions actually HARM the race or group or individuals. When you don't hire someone. When you don't tell the truth about someone. When you don't help someone. When you try to segregate someone.

This country has LOTS of people that stereotype cultures and races and sexes. Some of those are borderline to confirmed bigots with deep seated dislike for portions of our society and "lump them all together". And some of them are actually racists that through their actions have actually harmed people, individuals or whole communities.

I have no issue stating I stereotype. I stereotype hopefully on FACTUAL data and try to sort out what is not true. When I first meet someone I have already stereotyped them until they show actions that either confirm or break those stereotypes. We all do it. We all create initial impressions of people - white, black, brown, yellow - doesn't matter. It's why ALL of our parents told us first impressions matter - because when we meet someone we want to get into the "good stereotypes" in people's brains and not have to overcome "bad stereotypes" with actions later on.

I try to tell myself I am not a bigot, but I'll be honest and say I probably have some bigotry inside me. There are some cultures I just don't understand and don't like very much. Cultural differences I can't fathom or explain. I don't understand how black culture has let their families degrade so much. I don't understand so many children out of wedlock or so many children born into untenable circumstances. I don't understand the logic of raising a child without having a thought on how to make his/her life better than your own. I don't understand Muslim culture or their feelings toward women and non-believers. I don't like some Asian cultures and how they treat animals and the environment. I don't like their massive desire of exotic animal products that drives the poaching industry of so many endangered species.

These are bigoted thoughts. I know not EVERY black, not EVERY muslim, not EVERY asian feels this way or does these things. But my anger and disgust and disappointment in mankind certainly does pick out cultures that are part of world wide problems.

I do consciously try not to do is be racist. I hope my actions have never HARMED anyone of color or religion or sex. I purposely try to give everyone a fair chance to base their worth to me on their actions alone and not base them on my stereotypes or bigotry. I try to follow the law. I try to treat people as I would like to be treated. Really that's what ALL of us should expect from society.

The problem with racism in America is it is too worried about stereotypes and bigotry and not about ACTUAL racism or the actions that really are harmful. Trying to lecture people about their ingrained, human emotions (often based in fact and experience) to stereotype people and even fail to understand how cultures can be disliked and criticized for legitimate reasons (and not be racist in doing so) is part of the big problem why racial issues continue to exist and are so prevalent in society.
 
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