Are there any left?

[madinsomniac]

It's funny how everyone is OK kicking Belichick to the curb. It was ALLLL Tom Brady. Nevermind BB, had decades of being one of the smartest DCs in the game. He was the reason the Giants won super bowls. Then he gets to the Pats. People act like Brady arrived fully formed as a franchise QB. He wasn't. He was thrust into the lineuup due to injury and was a game manager. They won their first SB with running and screen passes plus defense.

Then Belichick was a smart enough coach to see what he had in Brady and completely redesigned the offense to fit him. The Pats missed the playoffs the year after that first SB win because Brady struggled with the new expanded offense. They kept with it and the next year Brady developed as a franchise QB.

BB also had to deal with losing assistants left and right for head coaching jobs.

Contrast with Tomlin who inherited a SB winning team with a young franchise QB, a great defense and a damn good coaching staff. Somehow nobody in the media ever says Tomlin won because of Ben. Tomlin barely had a resume prior to getting the steeler job. He was a DB coach for a few seasons. He coached a secondary with Hall Of Famers Ronde Barber and John Lynch. Super tough job. He then served as Minnesota DC for 1 year where his defense was last in the league against the pass (or maybe rush, i don't feel like looking it up).

Somehow BB is finished and should be kicked to the curb, but Tomlin is untouchable.

Brady worked within a system… he demanded Arians change his offense to the system he had run all those seasons in NE..

The reason suddenly the NE offense looks like crap has less to do with Brady leaving than with D’s final ly adjusting to that scheme NE ran… why do you really think Brady suddenly looked mortal his last season or why did matt jones go from pro bowl qb as a rookie to benched bum in a season… i mean players can be blamed for not properly executing… but when lots of players are failing the same way, it’s definitely a schematic problem

The NFL is all scheme these days. There are a handful of impact playmakers but mostly talent levels are so even that really it is all coaching and systems… its been trending this way for a long time.

 

[diver]

Pssst....there's no such thing as a coach's jersey.

That's a Bingo! There is a reason for that...it's about the players.

 

[diver]

And there's no guarantee that someone else wouldn't have. Just like you or I or Barry Switzer could have coached the '95 Cowboys to a Super Bowl win. At least knew he was a fraud, and got out of the game two years later. Tomlin has been milking this shlt for all its worth. Every last penny.

You don't need to respond further. "He (Tomlin) won in '08. Nothing else matters..." said it all.

What has happened afterward should not sully what was accomplished in '08. We know what was accomplished, end of discussion, the rest is just speculation.

 

[Steelr4evr]

A few more games like the last two and things will sort themselves out.

 

[Greg Lloyd]

The Steelers were simply due in that regard.

Yea think? (I know you're just agreeing with me): Let's see, since Tomlin has been HC, we've drafted Willie Gay (I'm going to call him a hit taken in the 5th round and providing decent play for years), Ryan Mundy (a bust pick where ever he was supposed to play), Keenan Lewis (seemed to be coming around just before he left for N.O.), Joe Burnett (bust), Crezdon Butler (bust), Curtis Brown (bust), Cortez Allen (bust), Terrence Frederick (bust), Shark Thomas (bust), Terry Hawthorne (bust), Shaq Richardson (bust), Senquez Golson (big bust, never played 2nd round pick), Doran Grant (bust), Artie Burns (huge 1st round best, total bum), Sean Davis (huge 2nd round bust), Cameron Sutton (gone by the time he was coming around), Brian Allen (bust), Terrell Edmunds (started for years so technically not a "bust" but many feel he was akin to one since he was a 1st rounder who never starred in any element), Marcus Allen (meh), Justin Layne (virtual bust, never amounted to anything), Antwoine Brooks (bust), Trey Norwood (bust). Yea, I'd say Shades has been universally horrid at trying to draft good DBs. I mean, like the worst I've ever seen.

I know you aren't gonna hit on the majority of draft picks, but for this to be his supposed area of expertise, he is dog sh-t, God awful at projecting DB talent. He looks like a dang @ss hat.

 

[Greg Lloyd]

What has happened afterward should not sully what was accomplished in '08. We know what was accomplished, end of discussion, the rest is just speculation.

"The rest is just speculation?" No, not really, we know he hasn't won a ring since and in the majority of seasons, hasn't even come close. 2001, and then, what? With a Hall of Fame QB, and what? A dozen years of mostly futility. He is a FRAUD.

 

[diver]

For the love, for that particular year, let me say it again, for 2008, not other years, 2008, we know Tomlin was the coach when they won. He did the right things, in the year of 2008, to help guide them to a championship. Whether Cowher would have won, or anyone else, is pure speculation. Once more, we know Tomlin was the coach in '08.

Yes, what has happened afterward is also not speculation. What happened in that particular year, 2008, should not be diminished because of what has happened since. I am not arguing, and have never argued, that what was accomplished in 2008 should mean he has a lifetime job. However, I will not belittle the enjoyment of that year in anyway.

 

[Punxsutawney]

Yea think? (I know you're just agreeing with me): Let's see, since Tomlin has been HC, we've drafted Willie Gay (I'm going to call him a hit taken in the 5th round and providing decent play for years), Ryan Mundy (a bust pick where ever he was supposed to play), Keenan Lewis (seemed to be coming around just before he left for N.O.), Joe Burnett (bust), Crezdon Butler (bust), Curtis Brown (bust), Cortez Allen (bust), Terrence Frederick (bust), Shark Thomas (bust), Terry Hawthorne (bust), Shaq Richardson (bust), Senquez Golson (big bust, never played 2nd round pick), Doran Grant (bust), Artie Burns (huge 1st round best, total bum), Sean Davis (huge 2nd round bust), Cameron Sutton (gone by the time he was coming around), Brian Allen (bust), Terrell Edmunds (started for years so technically not a "bust" but many feel he was akin to one since he was a 1st rounder who never starred in any element), Marcus Allen (meh), Justin Layne (virtual bust, never amounted to anything), Antwoine Brooks (bust), Trey Norwood (bust). Yea, I'd say Shades has been universally horrid at trying to draft good DBs. I mean, like the worst I've ever seen.

I know you aren't gonna hit on the majority of draft picks, but for this to be his supposed area of expertise, he is dog sh-t, God awful at projecting DB talent. He looks like a dang @ss hat.

I thought Artie Burns had a decent rookie year, but he just regressed from there.

Cortez Allen showed enough early on to get a fairly large second contract with the Steelers, but was just garbage after that.

Lewis had talent, but it took him forever to develop and signed elsewhere right after he did.

Gay and Sutton were probably Tomlin's best work in the secondary with the Steelers after a decade and a half. No offense to those two, as they were decent players in the right role, but it definitely does not reflect well on a coach who established himself in the league as a secondary coach.

Ronde Barber, John Lynch and that Bucs defense of the early 2000s made Tomlin in a lot of ways. They were already great before he got there.

 

[FAB802]

It's time for Coach Cliche to hit the bricks.

 

[topseed]

The chiefs are a shell of themselves. My example is spot on and parallels well with the Steelers in 2005-2010 won a couple Super Bowls got to another but every year the depth got worse. Not sure how much clearer the connection could be. They could win another but hell they could get bounced in the first round.

Um, no. Your example is not spot on, and it doesn't parallel at all. The Steelers won one of those Super Bowls in the second year of Ben's rookie deal, and the other in the first year of his first big contract. As I just explained to you, KC won their second championship in the THIRD year of Mahomes' monster contract, when his cap hit was $37.1 million. Ben's cap hit in the third year of his deal was $10.4 million. They're not even remotely similar.

The Chiefs are "a shell of themselves," yet they still remain in the top three of candidates to win this year's Super Bowl. Whatever you say, boss.


BTW, How did you like Tomlin's coaching today? How about that decision to punt from the Colts' 39, down by two scores with 3 minutes left in the third quarter? Those sure were 22 valuable net punt yards, weren't they? Does he look any closer to figuring things out?

 

[MTC]

Ronde Barber, John Lynch and that Bucs defense of the early 2000s made Tomlin in a lot of ways. They were already great before he got there.

Sounds familiar

 

[topseed]

That's a Bingo! There is a reason for that...it's about the players.

I know, I know. It's all about the players...unless it's 2008.

Actually the reason that people buy players' jerseys is that coaches don't play in the game, so they don't need a jersey. Might have something to do with it.

What has happened afterward should not sully what was accomplished in '08. We know what was accomplished, end of discussion, the rest is just speculation.

We sure do know what those players accomplished in 2008. Thank God that they had such a true leader of men to guide them...no one else but Mike Tomlin could have possibly done it, and he should be forever exalted for that lone Super Bowl win until the end of times. End of discussion.

 

[diver]

I know, I know. It's all about the players...unless it's 2008.

Actually the reason that people buy players' jerseys is that coaches don't play in the game, so they don't need a jersey. Might have something to do with it.


We sure do know what those players accomplished in 2008. Thank God that they had such a true leader of men to guide them...no one else but Mike Tomlin could have possibly done it, and he should be forever exalted for that lone Super Bowl win until the end of times. End of discussion.

Yeah, it was only about Cowher in '05...and Noll in the '70s, too. Yep. You do make me laugh.

People go to, or watch games, for the players, not to see the coaching staffs play football. They buy jerseys because...players play the games. We inherently know the game is about the players by our actions. Since that's the case, how can it be "All on Tomlin," or even "Mostly on Tomlin?"

Your responses become more ridiculous as we go.

 

[SteelerFan448]

Yeah, it was only about Cowher in '05...and Noll in the '70s, too. Yep. You do make me laugh.

People go to, or watch games, for the players, not to see the coaching staffs play football. They buy jerseys because...players play the games. We inherently know the game is about the players by our actions. Since that's the case, how can it be "All on Tomlin," or even "Mostly on Tomlin?"

Your responses become more ridiculous as we go.

I posted this earlier, but it’s the exact opposite from your point of view in that it’s all on the players. Since that’s the case, teams should never fire coaches or change coordinators. Seriously, should’ve just extended Matt Canada’s contract to keep the continuity.

 

[diver]

I posted this earlier, but it’s the exact opposite from your point of view in that it’s all on the players. Since that’s the case, teams should never fire. coaches or change coordinators. Seriously, should’ve just extended Matt Canada’s contract to keep the continuity.

That is not true. Where have I ever said it is all on the players? That is your interpretation. We get so upset with the results we lose a little common sense. I simply balk at the all on Tomlin or even mostly on Tomlin mantra. Player do the playing. They are most directly responsible. They play! Coaches do not throw picks or fumble or miss tackles and blocks.

They shouldn't have fired Canada. They should not have ever hired him, but firing him in season was a mistake. The Bengal game was better but since they may have gotten worse. All they did here was feed the whoa is me attitude of some of their players...the I'm not being used right and wah wah. They may be right but you do not feed that with some players that have the maturity of 14 year Olds. You just showed George Pickens and Diontae Johnson they can whine and complain and blame someone else. Now it'll always be the coach.

 

[ZonaBurgh]

That is not true. Where have I ever said it is all on the players? That is your interpretation. We get so upset with the results we lose a little common sense. I simply balk at the all on Tomlin or even mostly on Tomlin mantra. Player do the playing. They are most directly responsible. They play! Coaches do not throw picks or fumble or miss tackles and blocks.

They shouldn't have fired Canada. They should not have ever hired him, but firing him in season was a mistake. The Bengal game was better but since they may have gotten worse. All they did here was feed the whoa is me attitude of some of their players...the I'm not being used right and wah wah. They may be right but you do not feed that with some players that have the maturity of 14 year Olds. You just showed George Pickens and Diontae Johnson they can whine and complain and blame someone else. Now it'll always be the coach.

Maybe, but just what is the job of a HC? Is it not hiring assistants that can actually teach and get the most out of the players talents? Is it not to game plan for a specific opponent? Is it not to manage the clock efficiently and know when to challenge a play (because you have a dedicated coach in the box to let you know)? Is it not to be able to make in game adjustments, or at least 2nd half adjustments? Is it not to be able to control the locker room? The arrow points down on these issues, obviously, if you will.

 

[SteelerFan448]

That is not true. Where have I ever said it is all on the players? That is your interpretation. We get so upset with the results we lose a little common sense. I simply balk at the all on Tomlin or even mostly on Tomlin mantra. Player do the playing. They are most directly responsible. They play! Coaches do not throw picks or fumble or miss tackles and blocks.

They shouldn't have fired Canada. They should not have ever hired him, but firing him in season was a mistake. The Bengal game was better but since they may have gotten worse. All they did here was feed the whoa is me attitude of some of their players...the I'm not being used right and wah wah. They may be right but you do not feed that with some players that have the maturity of 14 year Olds. You just showed George Pickens and Diontae Johnson they can whine and complain and blame someone else. Now it'll always be the coach.

By continually minimizing the impact of coaching you are putting a vast majority on the players. Again, you may not think you're saying it, but that's the perception how others are reading it.

Back to Canada, why shouldn't they have hired him? He wasn't not completing passes or missing blocks. All they had to do was execute his plays, he should've been a fine hire.

 

[diver]

By continually minimizing the impact of coaching you are putting a vast majority on the players. Again, you may not think you're saying it, but that's the perception how others are reading it.

Back to Canada, why shouldn't they have hired him? He wasn't not completing passes or missing blocks. All they had to do was execute his plays, he should've been a fine hire.

It seems so elementary to me that the people most responsible for the outcome of games are the ones that actually play it. That does not mean to minimize coaching, yes it is important. So I will flip this on you. Do players bare any responsibility? Or are they just lumps of clay? I don't think you have ever made that assertion that they don't. Never have I in the other direction, either. I think the passion and anger over how things have gone have clouded things. And that anger and passion will only accept absolute agreement with a particular point of view.

If we follow out the All on Tomlin or Mostly on Tomlin assertion, and it applies to all coaches, are we saying then that Chuck Noll forgot how to coach in the 1980s?

 

[steel dino]

As a manager in the manufacturing world for years now..
I have to admit, that I do try to mentor young people st work.
However, I do not make it the main focus point and priority of my job, at the expense of what I was hired to do and signed up for.

I feel Tomlins main priority has shifted towards the mentoring focus at the expense of what he was originally hired for by Dan Rooney.

I also believe that Art Rooney is at peace with that and enables Tomlins quest to be that guy.

 

[SteelerFan448]

It seems so elementary to me that the people most responsible for the outcome of games are the ones that actually play it. That does not mean to minimize coaching, yes it is important. So I will flip this on you. Do players bare any responsibility? Or are they just lumps of clay? I don't think you have ever made that assertion that they don't. Never have I in the other direction, either. I think the passion and anger over how things have gone have clouded things. And that anger and passion will only accept absolute agreement with a particular point of view.

If we follow out the All on Tomlin or Mostly on Tomlin assertion, and it applies to all coaches, are we saying then that Chuck Noll forgot how to coach in the 1980s?

Absolutely, the players are very responsible for the wins and losses. I criticize players every week and as it stands today, want to see upgrades at QB, C, RT, and add another CB this offseason. I also think the coaches have run their course in Pittsburgh and have for awhile. This regime has not had the results we expect here and it's time to move on. It's easy to recognize the issues with the roster and the coaching staff.

 

[diver]

Absolutely, the players are very responsible for the wins and losses. I criticize players every week and as it stands today, want to see upgrades at QB, C, RT, and add another CB this offseason. I also think the coaches have run their course in Pittsburgh and have for awhile. This regime has not had the results we expect here and it's time to move on. It's easy to recognize the issues with the roster and the coaching staff.

I agree with everything you said there. I would add to that try to find a few WRs with a little more maturity. I'm afraid if they don't, even with a new staff some problems will linger. I think their two starting WRs are absolute morons. I'd trade each for a bag of footballs...addition by subtraction.

 

[SteelerFan448]

I agree with everything you said there. I would add to that try to find a few WRs with a little more maturity. I'm afraid if they don't, even with a new staff some problems will linger. I think their two starting WRs are absolute morons. I'd trade each for a bag of footballs...addition by subtraction.

The WRs are divas minus the production, but if you can't get a new WR, a new QB and an offensive-oriented coach could quickly fix that problem.

 

[tapeANaspirin2it]

In terms of talent, the Steelers OL is better than average. Cole, Daniels, and Semualu aren't pro bowlers, but they're proven vets. Jones is an elite talent first rounder. Dam Moore is OK and they are choosing the play him ahead of Chukes. I'd like some upgrades, but as is, this OL does have enough talent to be an above average OL.

The problem is that this OL is constantly confused. They aren't getting beaten physically, they are getting beaten mentally. They can't pick up stunts or blitzes. That's on the coaching. When you are this far into a season and your starters don't know how to pick up a blitz, that's the coach's fault.

You can blame the OL coach, but this is the norm under Tomlin. Aside from the stretch where Munchak was here, the OL has been a problem under Tomlin.

This team has gotten worse as Tomlin got more power.

He started as almost a figurehead. The team was assembled. Lebeau called the defense, Arians did the offense. Tomlin just made bad decisions on timeouts, and replays.

Tomlin did appear to have a lot of say in the draft. As soon as he took over, he immediately started drafting players that fit Tampa 2 scheme and not the steelers 3-4. That's why he wanted Lawrence Timmons. He was adamant that Timmons was drafted to be a 3-4 OLB. HIs first few seasons sucked as he tried and failed outside. It took years for him to become a decent ILB. Ziggy Hood. Not a fit at all in the 3-4. He kept drafting DBs based on their tackling ability.

Now it appears that Tomlin is no longer calling shots with the draft and free agency. The steelers are taking away responsibilities. I'd bet that Tomlin thinks THAT is why they're struggling, because he doesn't have enough of his type players.

You have a coach that stinks at talent evaluation (aside from WR apparently), he stinks at hiring assistant coaches. He stinks at callin defense. He allows the same mistakes to be made over and over. He doesn't want more coaches on staff. He looks at the stadium replay to decide if he should throw a challenge flag. He watched Canada's offense last year, and thought that it was good schematically.

How do you fix this? Do you tell Tomlin that Kahn and Weidl will hire his new assistants? If that is what needs to happen then Tomlin needs to go. If you can't trust your head coach to hire good assistants and hold those assistants accountable, then that coach has to go.

Tomlin should WANT to leave if the steelers are limiting hos power now. Trade him to Washington or Carolina, or wherever. I bet there'd be a bidding war if Tomlin was on the market.

 

[topseed]

Yeah, it was only about Cowher in '05...and Noll in the '70s, too. Yep. You do make me laugh.

According to you, it would be. But please don't embarrass yourself even further by comparing Tomlin to Chuck Noll.

People go to, or watch games, for the players, not to see the coaching staffs play football. They buy jerseys because...players play the games. We inherently know the game is about the players by our actions. Since that's the case, how can it be "All on Tomlin," or even "Mostly on Tomlin?"

What you comically cannot seem to understand is that here, in 2023, it's plain to see that the current state of the Steelers is mostly on Tomlin, because of the simple fact that he has been the head coach and "leader" in Pittsburgh for 17 years now. It's his own team: his offensive and defensive ideologies, his coaching staff, and his players.

Nobody gives a shlt anymore that the guy was the head coach in 2008, and won a championship with somebody else's star players, and somebody else's defensive coordinator. Except you.

Your responses become more ridiculous as we go.

All they did here was feed the whoa is me attitude of some of their players...the I'm not being used right and wah wah. They may be right but you do not feed that with some players that have the maturity of 14 year Olds. You just showed George Pickens and Diontae Johnson they can whine and complain and blame someone else. Now it'll always be the coach.

By the way, it's "woe is me," not "whoa is me." A little tip, so your responses look slightly less ridiculous the next time you decide to use that phrase.

 

[diver]

According to you, it would be. But please don't embarrass yourself even further by comparing Tomlin to Chuck Noll.

What you comically cannot seem to understand is that here, in 2023, it's plain to see that the current state of the Steelers is mostly on Tomlin, because of the simple fact that he has been the head coach and "leader" in Pittsburgh for 17 years now. It's his own team: his offensive and defensive ideologies, his coaching staff, and his players.

Nobody gives a shlt anymore that the guy was the head coach in 2008, and won a championship with somebody else's star players, and somebody else's defensive coordinator. Except you.


By the way, it's "woe is me," not "whoa is me." A little tip, so your responses look slightly less ridiculous the next time you decide to use that phrase.

Instead of hiding behind some ridiculous statement that I was comparing Noll to Tomlin, which I clearly wasn't, answer the questions. First, if it is "All" or "Mostly" on Tomlin, does this apply to other coaches, or just Tomlin? Is that only a Tomlin issue? Secondly, if not and you apply that to all coaches, did Noll forget how to coach in the '80s? It was Noll's own team, his offensive and defensive ideologies, his coaching staff and his players. My question really has nothing to do with Tomlin or Noll but it has to do with this idea of "All" or "Most" being on someone who doesn't even play. You remind me of a politician. Don't answer the question and deflect.

I will never agree that someone who does not play is more responsible than the people actually playing the game. Maybe I'm wrong, but I cannot think of any other job in which this would be the case, the exception being professional sports. I'd like to try it, though. If I screw up at work, well hell, I'll just go in and say, you hired me, I was following your ideologies and I was listening to the administrators you hired. It's mostly your fault! I wonder how that might that pan out for me?

If you don't give a **** about 2008, why do you object so much and so emotionally to my opinion on it? Why is it brought up here almost every time someone criticizes Tomlin? Almost every time. And that is not an exaggeration. If it doesn't matter to you all, why is it one of the reasons used so often to justify Tomlin's removal as head coach?

Thanks for the English lesson.