Are top NFL Centers really worth 10 Mil/yr?

[DeaconKnowledge]

No, keeping him would be "good enough". Pouncey isn't some dominant center like Dawson. He's not worth that type of money. Just like Wallace was one of the best WRs in the league.. did you want to pay him? And Pouncey has been hurt every year. I know it isn't his fault but he's still been hurt. Then you add the thug **** hat etc... I'd rather play the guy that is cheaper and played just as well.

What are you basing this on exactly? I see that thrown around a lot "Velasco was just as good" "Wallace was just as good." Care to quantify that? The most solid argument i've seen is "I haven't noticed a change". IF there was no noticeable change, why doesn't Hartwig still have a job?

I can give you one tangible difference - neither guy, Velasco or Wallace, was able to consistently win at the point of attack. At best they held their linemen while Bell followed the play (which was often away from center to compensate) but neither guy manipulated their man with regularity. Velasco is a worker - he's a smart, high effort guy who follows direction immensely well, but he's not half the athlete Pouncey is. Wallace is a grinder, but he's not as smart as Pouncey is. Neither guy has the hands Pouncey does either - dude slaps D linemen off him like a sumo.

The character stuff I get... to a degree. Shy of the hat incident Maurkice hasn't been implicated in anything (that I know of, please feel free to correct me) so in that regard I think talking about character is a bit heavy handed. Pouncey has also been flanked by middling talent at best (Foster) and Rockheads at worst (Kemoeatu) his whole career up to this point.

 

[Drink IRON City]

What are you basing this on exactly? I see that thrown around a lot "Velasco was just as good" "Wallace was just as good." Care to quantify that? The most solid argument i've seen is "I haven't noticed a change". IF there was no noticeable change, why doesn't Hartwig still have a job?

I can give you one tangible difference - neither guy, Velasco or Wallace, was able to consistently win at the point of attack. At best they held their linemen while Bell followed the play (which was often away from center to compensate) but neither guy manipulated their man with regularity. Velasco is a worker - he's a smart, high effort guy who follows direction immensely well, but he's not half the athlete Pouncey is. Wallace is a grinder, but he's not as smart as Pouncey is. Neither guy has the hands Pouncey does either - dude slaps D linemen off him like a sumo.

The character stuff I get... to a degree. Shy of the hat incident Maurkice hasn't been implicated in anything (that I know of, please feel free to correct me) so in that regard I think talking about character is a bit heavy handed. Pouncey has also been flanked by middling talent at best (Foster) and Rockheads at worst (Kemoeatu) his whole career up to this point.

Good post, I'm glad the front office gets to make final decision. I could be swayed either way.


Salute the nation

 

[Vader]

What are you basing this on exactly? I see that thrown around a lot "Velasco was just as good" "Wallace was just as good." Care to quantify that? The most solid argument i've seen is "I haven't noticed a change". IF there was no noticeable change, why doesn't Hartwig still have a job?

I can give you one tangible difference - neither guy, Velasco or Wallace, was able to consistently win at the point of attack. At best they held their linemen while Bell followed the play (which was often away from center to compensate) but neither guy manipulated their man with regularity. Velasco is a worker - he's a smart, high effort guy who follows direction immensely well, but he's not half the athlete Pouncey is. Wallace is a grinder, but he's not as smart as Pouncey is. Neither guy has the hands Pouncey does either - dude slaps D linemen off him like a sumo.

The character stuff I get... to a degree. Shy of the hat incident Maurkice hasn't been implicated in anything (that I know of, please feel free to correct me) so in that regard I think talking about character is a bit heavy handed. Pouncey has also been flanked by middling talent at best (Foster) and Rockheads at worst (Kemoeatu) his whole career up to this point.

Did you see our running game the past 3 years? Pouncey was starting in 2012 they were 26th in rushing yards. Last year they were 27th. So it appears that having him or not having him makes little difference. And that was with Miller and Bell hurt and Adams playing LT to start the year. I didn't see Pouncey consistently win at the point of attack. He never dominated. So the issue is do they pay top money to an oft injured average center. Also the rest of the OL has been anchored by an average center for the past 4 years.... when healthy.

 

[Vader]

Just an interesting read. They rank him as the 16th best center:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1444314-br-nfl-1000-2013-top-35-centers/page/21

They brought out the same issues I did. They also had Velasco rated high when he was at Tenn. He was #11.

 

[deljzc]

It's a tough call on the Steelers brass once the cap room opens up on June 1st.

There will be a lot of pressure to get a deal done AND the market is set by the Mack deal.

How many draft picks that actually "make it" can the Steelers NOT sign to 2nd round contracts? We haven't been drafting great to start with since 2006 so can the front office let another one go? That would make it Holmes, Gay (left, came back), Spaeth (left, came back), Mundy, Mendenhall, Hood, Wallace, Lewis, Urbik and Sanders. Pouncey and Worilds are still yet to be determined.

That's a LOT of your so-called "hits" (guys still in the league) that you didn't get locked up to 2nd contracts. Granted, maybe they didn't DESERVE 2nd contracts, but it's hard to go around and preach "build through the draft" when you even let the guys that make 53 man rosters walk away.

I'm not on board to sign Pouncey right now. I've said that from the beginning of the off-season. I let him ride out his contract and see (I could do the same thing Cleveland did and use the transition tag).

But I understand the pressure in this organization right now with how mediocre their drafts have been and how few 2nd contract players we are reaping from them (Colon, Woodley, Timmons and A. Brown are the only ones).

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

Just an interesting read. They rank him as the 16th best center:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1444314-br-nfl-1000-2013-top-35-centers/page/21

They brought out the same issues I did. They also had Velasco rated high when he was at Tenn. He was #11.

I suppose it's better to be a mediocre to good player on a good line than a good to great one on a **** line. That list's number 11 pick was cut from his team for a superior replacement according to our current o-line coach. The 11th best center in football is easily picked up on the waiver wire for a song at the beginning of the season? Calls the writer's cred into question.

I'm evaluating based on what I saw. Velasco wasn't a difference maker for the Steelers in 2013. He was a smart guy with below average athleticism. Great plug in, not so great day to day starter.

I posted this earlier - HERE is a video of Le'Veon Bell's 2013 highlights. It's not perfect but it illustrates what i'm talking about with Velasco. The run downs in this have a common theme -- the middle getting clogged and Bell bouncing to the outside to gain yards. Watch Velasco. He has problems anchoring, doesn't defeat anyone - rather engages them, but moves nothing, and is often beaten with speed on the snap. Forget about Pouncey a sec - is this "good enough"? Is this "11th best center in the NFL"? I would take a bet that says the Steelers don't think so.

Wallace was lucky - he had the privilege of going up against the Godawful Green Bay Packers defense. Even still he was driven to the ground.

 

[Ron Burgundy]

There will be a lot of pressure to get a deal done AND the market is set by the Mack deal.

That's how it goes with the salary cap. If Player B is 80% as good as Player A and makes 40% of the salary then it's a decision you've got to look at seriously.

But I understand the pressure in this organization right now with how mediocre their drafts have been and how few 2nd contract players we are reaping from them (Colon, Woodley, Timmons and A. Brown are the only ones).

Speaking of hurt all the time. Given his history I'd be real nervous about paying Pouncey big money when his odds of taking up a bunch of cap space to stand on the sidelines modeling the Duce Staley Memorial Sweatsuit are real good.

 

[deljzc]

Since we didn't sign Velasco and that leads me to suspect he's not close to being 100% healthy, I have changed my tune about trading Pouncey (unless the offer is just too good to pass up, like a top 45 pick).

I have also looked at all the rosters in the league and don't see a potential veteran, center-only that will likely be cut this summer.

I still think this could be an 11 win team based on the schedule. Not saying we are good or even that 11 wins is an accurate description of the team, just that it could happen and we could end up with a home playoff game to get to the final 8 teams.

In that case, having Pouncey might mean the difference between final 4 (or better) and not final 4. So I keep him this year with no contract talks and then I re-evaluate the center landscape, his play from 2014 and next years draft and make the next decision (transition tag, franchise tag, sign, let him walk, etc.).

That's where I pretty strongly stand on the Pouncey issue. I would be disappointing if they sign him to Mack-type money right now (i.e. $24 million guaranteed over the first 3 seasons) when I think that same deal will work next year.

We will see.

 

[Litos]

offer him 6 millions per year, 5 year, 15MM guaranteed. If he doesn't take it then trade him for anything better than a 3rd rounder or lose him at FA and get the comp pick

 

[Vader]

I suppose it's better to be a mediocre to good player on a good line than a good to great one on a **** line. That list's number 11 pick was cut from his team for a superior replacement according to our current o-line coach. The 11th best center in football is easily picked up on the waiver wire for a song at the beginning of the season? Calls the writer's cred into question.

I'm evaluating based on what I saw. Velasco wasn't a difference maker for the Steelers in 2013. He was a smart guy with below average athleticism. Great plug in, not so great day to day starter.

I posted this earlier - HERE is a video of Le'Veon Bell's 2013 highlights. It's not perfect but it illustrates what i'm talking about with Velasco. The run downs in this have a common theme -- the middle getting clogged and Bell bouncing to the outside to gain yards. Watch Velasco. He has problems anchoring, doesn't defeat anyone - rather engages them, but moves nothing, and is often beaten with speed on the snap. Forget about Pouncey a sec - is this "good enough"? Is this "11th best center in the NFL"? I would take a bet that says the Steelers don't think so.

Wallace was lucky - he had the privilege of going up against the Godawful Green Bay Packers defense. Even still he was driven to the ground.

Did you even watch that video?

1st play- Velasco and Foster double team the DL and make a massive hole. The play is blown up because Will Johnson gets beat inside. Velasco does a good job.
2nd play- Velasco pushes his man, one on one 5 yards down the field. His guy makes the tackle 10 yards down the field.
3rd play- Gets to the 2nd level and his guy is shielded. TD
4th play- One on one and stalemates his man.
5th play- Screen play where he sells it great and gets out in front of Bell. He picks off one guy while Bell rumbles for a ton of yards.
6th play- One on one and he gets driven back. First not so great play. But he still shielded Ben and he was able to get the pass off.
7th play- He pushes his guy back and Bell powers through the middle for a TD.
8th play- Pass play and he helps out Foster to keep the guy from getting to Ben.
9th play- Against the rats. He blocks his man out and Bell takes it right up the middle for a long run.
10th play- The entire line blocks off to the left and Bell walks into the end zone right up the middle for an easy untouched walk in TD.
11th play- Takes his man into the end zone and Bell goes the wrong way but still gets the TD over the RT
12th play- Pass play where he sets a perfect pocket and Ben has all day to throw.
13th play- Perfect screen play where he gets to the 2nd level.
14th play- Holds the center but the LT missed his guy so Bell has to stop and go outside.

Not doing the rest of the plays but you get the drift. Velasco play very well in those plays. Most of which were one on one. Pouncey almost always has help from the guards. Show me video of Pouncey dominating one on one.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

Did you even watch that video?

1st play- Velasco and Foster double team the DL and make a massive hole. The play is blown up because Will Johnson gets beat inside. Velasco does a good job.
2nd play- Velasco pushes his man, one on one 5 yards down the field. His guy makes the tackle 10 yards down the field.
3rd play- Gets to the 2nd level and his guy is shielded. TD
4th play- One on one and stalemates his man.
5th play- Screen play where he sells it great and gets out in front of Bell. He picks off one guy while Bell rumbles for a ton of yards.
6th play- One on one and he gets driven back. First not so great play. But he still shielded Ben and he was able to get the pass off.
7th play- He pushes his guy back and Bell powers through the middle for a TD.
8th play- Pass play and he helps out Foster to keep the guy from getting to Ben.
9th play- Against the rats. He blocks his man out and Bell takes it right up the middle for a long run.
10th play- The entire line blocks off to the left and Bell walks into the end zone right up the middle for an easy untouched walk in TD.
11th play- Takes his man into the end zone and Bell goes the wrong way but still gets the TD over the RT
12th play- Pass play where he sets a perfect pocket and Ben has all day to throw.
13th play- Perfect screen play where he gets to the 2nd level.
14th play- Holds the center but the LT missed his guy so Bell has to stop and go outside.

Not doing the rest of the plays but you get the drift. Velasco play very well in those plays. Most of which were one on one. Pouncey almost always has help from the guards. Show me video of Pouncey dominating one on one.

Sure

http://www.nfl.com/videos/pittsburg...3c3/Haloti-Ngata-Nick-Mangold-Calais-Campbell

I could post some other ones, but they're full game videos.

As for Velasco. I suppose it's a matter of perspective. As I said, Velasco is a great plug in and a smart guy. He can hold his blocks well, but he doesn't move guys. Pouncey anchors and drives. Plugs into the second level consistently on Run plays, and is only 24 years of age.

 

[TDX27]

Pouncey got hurt last year. Prior to his injury and the entire previous year, he was nowhere near as good as he was in his 1st two seasons. He was not even close to being a top 10 center.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

Further to your "show Pouncey dominating" challenge, i've posted three gifs from the 2112 and 2011 seasons. (Linked since they're pretty large).

http://i.minus.com/ibMXnALoX3DKK.gif

Pouncey v. Domata Peko, 2011 season. Turns him, Redman exploits the backside hole for a big gain.


http://i.minus.com/iDrNO8Yd1qTZP.gif

Pouncey pulls and seals the linebacker at the second level. 2012 season. completely removes him from the play, gives him another couple of shoves for good measure.

http://i.minus.com/ibkNaTnxYGK4jk.gif

Pouncey pancakes his man at the goal line. 2012 season. Redman didn't need it, but hey.

 

[Vader]

You obviously have a hard on for the guy. 3 entire plays from 2 seasons? Wow how did they ever rank 26th in rushing with that HOF in the middle? I saw better plays from Velasco just last year in the video you posted. In the first gif the play it's hard to tell which way the play was designed. Either Redman ran the wrong way or Pouncey blocked the wrong way. I'm 100% positive the play wasn't designed for him to hit a brick wall on the right side and then have him spin to the left. Pouncey starts blocking him to seal him from the right side but he gets away and then he gets lost in the wash on the left. If Pouncey was trying to seal him on the left he failed miserably.

Again if that's his best then I'll take Velasco and Wallace any day.

 

[bermudasteel]

I'll subscribe to that Vader - but, I won't trade our BEST OL for a hopeful draft pick to replace him. Now that we have a real OL coach - all the naysayers shall remain quiet then (I hope)...

 

[Vader]

I'll subscribe to that Vader - but, I won't trade our BEST OL for a hopeful draft pick to replace him. Now that we have a real OL coach - all the naysayers shall remain quiet then (I hope)...

IMHO he isn't the best OL on the team. I'll take DeCastro over him any day. Even after looking at those "great" plays, I don't see him dominating anyone. Just like the 2nd gif above. He doesn't block anyone to start with and gets to the 2nd level. Anyone can do that. How is that impressive? A center blocking a lber who is coming around at an angle isn't difficult. Calling it dominating is a joke.

I don't care for Pouncey anymore because he is oft injured, overrated, and living off of one year. Seriously, Mike Wallace way out played Pouncey in his 4 years here. But nobody wanted to re-sign him because he wanted paid. Why is Pouncey any different? Hell Wallace broke records here. Now people want to pay a guy that hasn't been healthy in 3 years and has never been dominant to a large contract. I don't get it.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

You obviously have a hard on for the guy. 3 entire plays from 2 seasons? Wow how did they ever rank 26th in rushing with that HOF in the middle? I saw better plays from Velasco just last year in the video you posted. In the first gif the play it's hard to tell which way the play was designed. Either Redman ran the wrong way or Pouncey blocked the wrong way. I'm 100% positive the play wasn't designed for him to hit a brick wall on the right side and then have him spin to the left. Pouncey starts blocking him to seal him from the right side but he gets away and then he gets lost in the wash on the left. If Pouncey was trying to seal him on the left he failed miserably.

Again if that's his best then I'll take Velasco and Wallace any day.

You want me to gif out every good play he had since he was drafted? I don't know what kinda time you think I have bro.

You asked me to give you one play where he single blocked his man and I gave you three, now that's not good enough?

As for your analysis I have no idea what you're talking about as its the seal Pouncey created that Redman ends up running through in that first gif. You're saying pouncey lost him? He had his hands on Peko from the snap?! You've made up your mind that Pouncey is trash though so I won't waste my time further.

 

[Vader]

You want me to gif out every good play he had since he was drafted? I don't know what kinda time you think I have bro.

You asked me to give you one play where he single blocked his man and I gave you three, now that's not good enough?

As for your analysis I have no idea what you're talking about as its the seal Pouncey created that Redman ends up running through in that first gif. You've made up your mind that Pouncey is trash though so I won't waste my time further.

Is English your first language? I said "Show me video of Pouncey DOMINATING one on one. I understand you love the guy so there is no reason to keep discussing it. In that first gif tell me where the play was designed to go. Pouncey start trying to seal left. Then the guy goes under him and gets lost. Redman runs right first and hits a wall. Then he spins and runs back to his left. The play was designed to go right but it got blown up. Pouncey's man vacated the middle and ran into the pile. Redman then runs through the hole vacated by Pouncey's man. I don't see how that is a great block by Pouncey.

 

[CorpusDsteelers]

Lol well I your a Deacon you only work one day a week right?

 

[black and gold apex]

Lets see if Pouncy can stay on the field. No doubt he can play but has not shown he can stay healthy.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

Is English your first language? I said "Show me video of Pouncey DOMINATING one on one. I understand you love the guy so there is no reason to keep discussing it. In that first gif tell me where the play was designed to go. Pouncey start trying to seal left. Then the guy goes under him and gets lost. Redman runs right first and hits a wall. Then he spins and runs back to his left. The play was designed to go right but it got blown up. Pouncey's man vacated the middle and ran into the pile. Redman then runs through the hole vacated by Pouncey's man. I don't see how that is a great block by Pouncey.

All of a sudden we're talking about where the play was designed to go? This wasn't a criteria with the Velasco video (in fact my entire initial argument was that Bell had to create since Velasco engaged but didn't create space) now it's mandatory with Pouncey? Pouncey had his hands on Peko from the snap, removes him from the play, Redman takes the wide gaping hole Pouncey creates on the backside against the Bungles Nose tackle, and that's not dominating? As I said you've made up your mind.

 

[Vader]

All of a sudden we're talking about where the play was designed to go? This wasn't a criteria with the Velasco video (in fact my entire initial argument was that Bell had to create since Velasco engaged but didn't create space) now it's mandatory with Pouncey? Pouncey had his hands on Peko from the snap, removes him from the play, Redman takes the wide gaping hole Pouncey creates on the backside against the Bungles Nose tackle, and that's not dominating? As I said you've made up your mind.

And you've made up your mind. First you KNEW I was talking about dominating and you intentionally changed it to "one on one" because you couldn't find video of him dominating. I took the time to look at YOUR video about Velasco. I broke down the plays. Velasco played well on almost every play. He had ONE bad play that I saw but it was still a completed pass. Then you throw up Pouncey's gifs and I break them down. Pouncey didn't dominant. He looked no better than Velasco or Wallace.

Pouncey blocks to seal the LEFT. Peko then goes under his block and runs into the pile. Redman BOUNCES and SPINS off the pile and through the hole vacated by Peko. Redman should have been tackled for a loss but he spin and changes direction. The play wasn't designed to go there. If Peko stays home he makes the tackle. He reads that Pounce is trying to seal him left and he beats the block inside. He just goes too far into the **** and is out of position when Redman breaks a tackle.

 

[deljzc]

I don't understand the point in arguing over specific plays. For every starter you can find 5 gifs where he looks awesome and 5 gifs where he completely whiffs. That's the nature of the game.

Consistency is what really matters and you can't measure that with highlights. Same when you scout college players - using highlights is a really bad way to scout.

That said, this isn't an argument about Pouncey vs. anyone. It's about what we are willing to SPEND for Pouncey and when.

Mack's deal is pretty amazing for Mack. He gets $10 million this year and $8 million next year guaranteed. His third year is guaranteed at $8 million but Mack can actually OPT-OUT of the deal if he wants to leave or test the free agent waters again at age 30.

Overall it's a 5-year, $42 million with no signing bonus and $26 million guaranteed.

If Pouncey wants the exact same deal (with signing bonuses and no opt-out) would you sign him for that? Now? Next off-season?

That's the question. Yes or no.

DeaconKnowlege... what is your answer, since you are promoting Pouncey's worth more than anyone?

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

I don't understand the point in arguing over specific plays. For every starter you can find 5 gifs where he looks awesome and 5 gifs where he completely whiffs. That's the nature of the game.

Consistency is what really matters and you can't measure that with highlights. Same when you scout college players - using highlights is a really bad way to scout.

That said, this isn't an argument about Pouncey vs. anyone. It's about what we are willing to SPEND for Pouncey and when.

Mack's deal is pretty amazing for Mack. He gets $10 million this year and $8 million next year guaranteed. His third year is guaranteed at $8 million but Mack can actually OPT-OUT of the deal if he wants to leave or test the free agent waters again at age 30.

Overall it's a 5-year, $42 million with no signing bonus and $26 million guaranteed.

If Pouncey wants the exact same deal (with signing bonuses and no opt-out) would you sign him for that? Now? Next off-season?

That's the question. Yes or no.

DeaconKnowlege... what is your answer, since you are promoting Pouncey's worth more than anyone?

Not at all. He does have a problem with staying on the field. A lot of it is dumb luck, but that cannot be just ignored.

My argument is that a healthy Pouncey is far and away the best center on the team. Velasco is a good center and I want him back, but I don't think he and Pouncey are interchangeable. He just does not have the athleticism Pouncey does, despite being smart as a whip.

Steelers have lacked talent the past few years and you don't just let talented guys walk for nothing if you can avoid it, particularly on the o-line. Not to prop up the Pats, but the one position group they tend to pay is offensive linemen, while letting receivers walk annually.

Also, I agree with you about highlights - I only showed those gifs and the video to illustrate the problems I see with Velasco vs. Pouncey over an entire 16 game season wherein i've watched each game at least twice. Velasco's body doesn't match his brain - i've seen it with other players on the o-line time and again. He has certainly outworked the guy across from him (one that stands out is him completely whipping Haloti Ngata, though I think the guy has been severely overrated the past couple of seasons.)

 

[Bigappleyinzer]

Not at all. He does have a problem with staying on the field. A lot of it is dumb luck, but that cannot be just ignored.

My argument is that a healthy Pouncey is far and away the best center on the team. Velasco is a good center and I want him back, but I don't think he and Pouncey are interchangeable. He just does not have the athleticism Pouncey does, despite being smart as a whip.

Steelers have lacked talent the past few years and you don't just let talented guys walk for nothing if you can avoid it, particularly on the o-line. Not to prop up the Pats, but the one position group they tend to pay is offensive linemen, while letting receivers walk annually.

Also, I agree with you about highlights - I only showed those gifs and the video to illustrate the problems I see with Velasco vs. Pouncey over an entire 16 game season wherein i've watched each game at least twice. Velasco's body doesn't match his brain - i've seen it with other players on the o-line time and again. He has certainly outworked the guy across from him (one that stands out is him completely whipping Haloti Ngata, (though I think the guy has been severely overrated the past couple of seasons.)

Anyone who doesnt believes that Pouncey is our best interior lineman/center is trolling at this point.

Velasco is certainly adequate but definitely not as athletic. Wallace is average at best. I mean, people are saying DeCastro is the best player on the line? Really? when he is solely responsible for ending Pouncey's season and has struggled with an injury himself?

I agree with you that we cant keep letting our own talent go- especially talent on either line's