Are top NFL Centers really worth 10 Mil/yr?

[keslerclan]

That was the reason i posted this to start with...is HE worth it. I know his agent will say he's worth Mack's deal (or better) but what do we think?

I know Pouncey is an athlete. We all know he is a tactician (not a mauler). He has some of the best feet and hands for an interior lineman. He has NEVER been dominant in a physical regard. His brother (while admittedly living a bit close to the fire) is much stronger than Maurkice. He must work at it more, whereas Maurkice is more of a "student of the game" type who wins with quickness, good hand and feet. He looked much better BEFORE his original ankle injury too. There is little doubt he has the "tools" to be a top 10 or even top 5 C in this league, however, you don't get there from the tub. We have seen little of the guy who burst onto the scene in his rookie year. He is beaten and beaten badly against power rushers who shoot upfield. (ask Barry Cofield). He is hard to disengage but he will not overpower most DTs. He IS better suited for a ZBS than a power man blocking scheme. The issue I have with him is his injuries. I know they weren't his fault BUT it plays into affecting his 'strengths'.
How quick and agile will he be with 2 bum ankles and a surgically repaired knee? How long will it take to re-acclimate? Do we pay him big money on potential? I don't think so. I say we let him play it out this year and pay him based on THIS year's performance alone. Who cares what you did as a rookie? You're not the same guy. Some guys get paid (Worilds) based on their most recent accomplishments, rarely does a guy get paid on talent without production. We need to see what he has left.

As far as the "other guys" (Wallace, Velasco), they did fine in Pouncey's absence. We had already scrapped the ZBS and in my mind, I don't believe the media hype that Munch will "transform" our OL into a ZBS only team. He ran more "man" than ZBS in Tennessee and Houston even though he DID install a ZBS in Tennessee a few years ago. It is NOT what he is known for, IMO. I think Munch will evaluate what we have and try to make better players out of them. Whether he runs with a ZBS or "man" scheme is likely to wait until those evals are done. He may decide to run a "hybrid" which is what we were trying to do and what HE DID in Tennessee too. What we end up with as well as Pouncey's ability to get his body back into playing shape will determine how 'hard' we go after him in FA. I hope he is rededicated and plays well enough to make it a difficult choice when that time comes. I can see the value of letting his actions tell us what we have in him. As of right now though, he isn't worth the $$ that Mack got, IMO.

 

[bermudasteel]

IMHO he isn't the best OL on the team. I'll take DeCastro over him any day. Even after looking at those "great" plays, I don't see him dominating anyone. Just like the 2nd gif above. He doesn't block anyone to start with and gets to the 2nd level. Anyone can do that. How is that impressive? A center blocking a lber who is coming around at an angle isn't difficult. Calling it dominating is a joke.

I don't care for Pouncey anymore because he is oft injured, overrated, and living off of one year. Seriously, Mike Wallace way out played Pouncey in his 4 years here. But nobody wanted to re-sign him because he wanted paid. Why is Pouncey any different? Hell Wallace broke records here. Now people want to pay a guy that hasn't been healthy in 3 years and has never been dominant to a large contract. I don't get it.

Double D is why we lost Pouncey last season...

Let's give the boys some time to work together before you chastise him for being oft injured...

 

[Vader]

Double D is why we lost Pouncey last season...

Let's give the boys some time to work together before you chastise him for being oft injured...

DD is still a better RG than Pouncey is a center. Pouncey had ONE good year. Why don't you wait to pay him until he does more than ONE year? Anybody that believes Pouncey has been the best interior OL the past 3 years is out of their mind and probably trolling.

 

[Bigappleyinzer]

DD is still a better RG than Pouncey is a center. Pouncey had ONE good year. Why don't you wait to pay him until he does more than ONE year? Anybody that believes Pouncey has been the best interior OL the past 3 years is out of their mind and probably trolling.

Pouncey had one great year. Fair.

But how many great years has DD had for you to say that he is better? I thought DD was good but far from stellar last year, especially considering he kamikaze'd Pouncey's knee..

 

[Vader]

Pouncey had one great year. Fair.

But how many great years has DD had for you to say that he is better? I thought DD was good but far from stellar last year, especially considering he kamikaze'd Pouncey's knee..

I never said DD was great. I said he was a better RG than Pouncey is a center at this point.

 

[Idioteque]

I like how we're using DeCastro's one play as evidence that he's not that good. Fantabulous reasoning.

If I had to choose (and we will), I take DeCastro over Pouncey and I don't even think about it.

 

[Bigappleyinzer]

I like how we're using DeCastro's one play as evidence that he's not that good. Fantabulous reasoning.

If I had to choose (and we will), I take DeCastro over Pouncey and I don't even think about it.

Not just using that one play as an indicator. I think he was solid last year...

But I think its ridiculous comparing a kid who has played only one year in the league- to a 3x All-Pro Center lol.

 

[Punxsutawney]

Not just using that one play as an indicator. I think he was solid last year...

But I think its ridiculous comparing a kid who has played only one year in the league- to a 3x All-Pro Center lol.

Was he really named All-Pro three times?

If so, it is really a reflection of how little talent there currently is at the center position in the NFL. Pouncey has performed at a legitimately All-Pro level only once in his career.

Pouncey is a terrific run blocker, but the guy has issues in pass protection. It's not just the bullrush.

I lost count of how many times an opposing team would get a free rusher up the middle against Roethlisberger on a blitz or stunt where Pouncey is standing there with a "Duh" look on his face blocking no one. There was little of that with Velasco.

I think Pouncey is a decent, though overrated layer. If he wants anything in the ballpark of what Mack got, he can take a hike to somewhere where a team will overpay his ***.

 

[south dakota STEEL]

I take Velasco, easily, over Pouncey. Could Pouncey play guard?

 

[deljzc]

I still don't here a lot of specifics from anyone.

What is the price threshold NOW to sign him. If he rejects the offer, can we fit it into our 2015 financial plan to a) transition tag him or b) franchise tag him? Is there a pick (and what is it) that would make you consider a trade now (before the draft) or a couple months from now (after the draft)?

I understand it's complex, but no one wants to put their opinion into a realistic outcome. You can think Pouncey is better than DeCastro or the opposite, but it doesn't change the fact you HAVE to have a detailed plan about Pouncey moving forward. I just don't see anyone here offering any semblance of that in their arguments/debate.

 

[keslerclan]

Well, if you put it THAT way...Pouncey is presently making top 10 money at the position. (9th actually) IF I had to negotiate something with him before I see him play on his rehabbed knee, I'm looking at no more than what he is making this year (+5.5mil). I don't even think I would go that far. It's too big of a risk to take in a contract with a guy who is NOT a work-out warrior to begin with. I like the idea of seeing what he has on the field (under Munch) to see what he sets his value at. If I were forced to negotiate a contract this off-season, it would be for 4/22 or thereabouts. He won't sign it UNLESS HE knows he's not an elite C. I don't know what he is thinking.

Now, IF he has a top 10 caliber season coming off the injury, I would be looking at a 5/40 with 20 guaranteed. Even then, I don't think he takes the deal IF he believes his press clippings. I think he is GONE after this season regardless and I don't think we should try to stop him. Maybe we shop him BUT there's not alot there to be shopped at the moment. I don't think ANY interior lineman is worth over 8 mil/yr avg. I don't think top CBs are worth 12 mil/yr and I don't think top WRs are worth 18 mil/yr. No team wins consistently when they value their 'elite players' over the team. The lone exception being at QB because a top QB can keep a team competitive. It is difficult to find an example of a team that has experienced extended periods of success while topping the league in salaries at any position other than QB and even they are few and far between.

Consider this, NO team has won a SB with their top player absorbing more than 14% of their cap space. No Qb has won the SB when they were making in excess of 15 million. The highest paid QB to win a SB was Eli Manning in 2012 at just over 14 mil/yr. A top LT who makes 10 million plus a Qb at 18 million will never have enough "team" around him to bring home a trophy. IMO The best case scenario is when you have an OL who are good enough to "earn" 5 million per year across the board. That's 30 million (including your TE) with the "skill" players earning more (QB, WRs, RB). Do the same on Defense and you have a TEAM capable of being competitive on a yearly basis. That's why I won't pay interior lineman big money.

 

[Ron Burgundy]

I still don't here a lot of specifics from anyone.

What is the price threshold NOW to sign him. If he rejects the offer, can we fit it into our 2015 financial plan to a) transition tag him or b) franchise tag him? Is there a pick (and what is it) that would make you consider a trade now (before the draft) or a couple months from now (after the draft)?

I understand it's complex, but no one wants to put their opinion into a realistic outcome. You can think Pouncey is better than DeCastro or the opposite, but it doesn't change the fact you HAVE to have a detailed plan about Pouncey moving forward. I just don't see anyone here offering any semblance of that in their arguments/debate.

1) I don't think we'll have the cap room regardless and 2) I'm sure he wants to go to Miami to play with brother Mike. They can free up some cap room by cutting Mike Wallace, LOL.

 

[CorpusDsteelers]

After wearing the free Hernandez hat I lost all respect for him he can go hang with his brother in Miami for all care.

 

[deljzc]

So the consensus is probably "Don't do anything" with his contract and we'll revisit this issue in 2015, right? That's been my vote from the beginning and most everyone's (even those saying he's our best O-linemen). Is there anyone here that wants to sign him before the season starts to $8 million/year with $24 million guaranteed?

What is the pick threshold to consider trading him? Pick 32? Pick 45? Pick 64? Pick 75? Pick 100?

 

[Bigappleyinzer]

So the consensus is probably "Don't do anything" with his contract and we'll revisit this issue in 2015, right? That's been my vote from the beginning and most everyone's (even those saying he's our best O-linemen). Is there anyone here that wants to sign him before the season starts to $8 million/year with $24 million guaranteed?

What is the pick threshold to consider trading him? Pick 32? Pick 45? Pick 64? Pick 75? Pick 100?

I am actually in the camp who wants to sign him before the season. Definitely to a longer contract (with no opt out clause), hopefully either less per year or less guaranteed...

The reason being- what if this is the year that our line really comes together? It appears that it could be, with guys getting experience and with Munchak coming aboard. Are we willing to let the best player (or if you dont agree for some reason, the anchor) on the line simply leave? C. Wallace only started a handful of games, so none of us really know what we have with him other than a backup (and possibly a dirty player). Velasco is coming off a major injury- are you comfortable having him limp out on the field and go against the Ngata's of the world?

Listen- I do not want to get bent over by Pouncey. In fact, I would use his recent injury history this summer to scare him into a much more friendlier deal (iono 6/7mm). But if we wait until next year, and he doesnt get injured and plays at his normal rate, I guarantee he will be expecting Mack $$. And our 'musical chair' O-Line will continue its tune...

I almost forgot- Pouncey is only 24! We could be talking about 5 or 6 years of high level Center play!

 

[antdrewjosh]

I almost forgot- Pouncey is only 24! We could be talking about 5 or 6 years of high level Center play!

This. Why are we giving up on a 24 year old guy who has proven to be one if the best at his position. Neither of his injuries were his fault. We just got the best OLine coach in the game. Why not sign this guy and let him learn under the best.

 

[Litos]

So the consensus is probably "Don't do anything" with his contract and we'll revisit this issue in 2015, right? That's been my vote from the beginning and most everyone's (even those saying he's our best O-linemen). Is there anyone here that wants to sign him before the season starts to $8 million/year with $24 million guaranteed?

What is the pick threshold to consider trading him? Pick 32? Pick 45? Pick 64? Pick 75? Pick 100?

Pick 64 sounds about right, bit first I would offer him a 5MM per year contract to see if he bites.

 

[Steel Ballin]

This. Why are we giving up on a 24 year old guy who has proven to be one if the best at his position. Neither of his injuries were his fault. We just got the best OLine coach in the game. Why not sign this guy and let him learn under the best.

Uhh I don't think anyone is saying,...not sign him. It's about how much is he worth. Do you want him for $8M+ per season? Not me.

 

[Confluence]

I think Pouncey was ably replaced last season by two players considered to be "just a guy". Add in his injury history, questionable connections to thugs, and this seems too easy......no way the Steelers even make him an offer until he demonstrates his value on the field. Which he really hasn't done since his rookie year.

 

[deljzc]

Let's get one thing straight.

Pouncey is not going to accept $5 million per year or $6 million per year or probably even $7 million per year. Alex Mack actually got $8.4 million per season and $8.67 million per season GUARANTEED over the first 3 years.

You can "float" a cheap deal out there all you want but Pouncey isn't going to bite. For him to take an $8 million/year deal and $24 million guaranteed is LESS than Mack and that alone takes into account this year vs. next and the fact Pouncey is scheduled to make $4.1 million this year vs. Mack's $9.5 million (transition tag).

If you want to be creative with a contract, go ahead, but don't be unrealistic ($5 million per year? Really? Are you joking?).

To make it easier on you, just tell me how much you give Pouncey in the first 3 years of the contract. That's all that really matters anyway. Mack is getting $26 million. How much do you offer Pouncey and don't expect him to laugh in your face?

Giving him a low ball offer is the same at not giving him an offer at all (in fact you might piss him off).

We have one vote at pick #64 or higher to trade him. I'm probably at pick #45-#50 right now to trade him. I am not offering him a contract.

I'm just trying to get this debate about Pouncey focused on the IMPORTANT thing - which is money. Not whether you like Pouncey or not.

Everyone here would take Pouncey at 5-years, $25 million. Everyone. But that's as unrealistic as expecting Santa Claus to leave you a BMW in the driveway.

The truth is, after the Mack deal, a realistic deal to get Pouncey signed before the season starts is 5-years, $40 million with $24 million in the first three seasons (all guaranteed).

You can't just say "oh, I'd sign him for less than that". That's not an answer. If you want to say your max contract offer is $21 million over the first 3 seasons, I could at least accept that but understand that is HIGHLY unlikely. If you max contract offer is anything under that, it's not worth talking about - your answer is ride out his deal.

Those are the parameters of the debate. And I don't quite understand why people can't just discuss the issue in those terms rather than bicker about Pouncey's highlight reel, whether his probowls are legit or how injured he is/isn't.

It's a pretty simple debate actually and one you can easily establish where you stand. And once you opinion is in writing we will see if what actually happens by the Steelers is agreeable/disagreeable to your original opinion.

 

[antdrewjosh]

Uhh I don't think anyone is saying,...not sign him. It's about how much is he worth. Do you want him for $8M+ per season? Not me.

I want him for whatever the team and him can agree too. The Steelers arent going to go over a certain amount this is a given. He will get market value though. We cant lowball everybody. He is only 24 headed into his prime years. Sign him. The Cap is going up. We have the room to sign him. All the big contracts on this team are leaving or retiring or getting cut. Pouncey is part of the young vets we should keep.

 

[antdrewjosh]

I think Pouncey was ably replaced last season by two players considered to be "just a guy". Add in his injury history, questionable connections to thugs, and this seems too easy......no way the Steelers even make him an offer until he demonstrates his value on the field. Which he really hasn't done since his rookie year.

This is reaching. Hernandez was his friend. College teammate. Just because henandez is an idiot thug doesnt make Pouncey one. He was an idiot for wearing a shirt. Thats about it. Doesnt make him a thug.

 

[Bigappleyinzer]

Let's get one thing straight.

Pouncey is not going to accept $5 million per year or $6 million per year or probably even $7 million per year. Alex Mack actually got $8.4 million per season and $8.67 million per season GUARANTEED over the first 3 years.

You can "float" a cheap deal out there all you want but Pouncey isn't going to bite. For him to take an $8 million/year deal and $24 million guaranteed is LESS than Mack and that alone takes into account this year vs. next and the fact Pouncey is scheduled to make $4.1 million this year vs. Mack's $9.5 million (transition tag).

If you want to be creative with a contract, go ahead, but don't be unrealistic ($5 million per year? Really? Are you joking?).

To make it easier on you, just tell me how much you give Pouncey in the first 3 years of the contract. That's all that really matters anyway. Mack is getting $26 million. How much do you offer Pouncey and don't expect him to laugh in your face?

Giving him a low ball offer is the same at not giving him an offer at all (in fact you might piss him off).

We have one vote at pick #64 or higher to trade him. I'm probably at pick #45-#50 right now to trade him. I am not offering him a contract.

Got ya.

Well, before Alex Mack came in and blew up the spot, the highest paid Centers were Kalil and Mangold at about 7.25mm. I feel that Pouncey is better or at least comparable to them, and also about 5 years younger and entering his prime. My max would be a deal around 7.75-8.00mm per. Maybe make the signing bonus more sweet in his favor for a longer contract with no opt out clause. It is still less than Mack, but Pouncey is coming off a knee injury, so being the 2nd highest paid wont be all that bad too him..

 

[deljzc]

So we have established there are some here that want to realistically try and lock Pouncey up now at $8 million/season. Good. I actually think the Steelers front office is in your position, although maybe the Mack deal did screw up their offer structure by a couple million in guarantees.

I think if we let him play and FRANCHISE tag him next year, you have to sign him to more than $8 million per season and guarantee him what Mack got in 2015.

So you could get him for $24 million from 2014 to 2016.

OR there is an option of paying him $4.2 million now
Then $26-$27 million guaranteed from 2015-2017.

Would those in favor of signing Pouncey now consider waiting this season and use the franchise tag on him?

Is that an option?

 

[Bigappleyinzer]

I want him for whatever the team and him can agree too. The Steelers arent going to go over a certain amount this is a given. He will get market value though. We cant lowball everybody. He is only 24 headed into his prime years. Sign him. The Cap is going up. We have the room to sign him. All the big contracts on this team are leaving or retiring or getting cut. Pouncey is part of the young vets we should keep.

People are in here stating that we should offer Pouncey 5/per, when the Rams and Bills Centers make around 6/7 and are much older than Pouncey.

Its kinda crazy that people are soo comfortable tossing one of our more successful draft choices in the past 5 years- for being just that, successful. Its akin to saying, "well look what the Seahawks did with a 2nd year QB while only paying him 2mm! Why even bother paying Ben 15mm??"