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ZonaBurgh

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I've posted questions and statements to friends on the left here that go unanswered.

Perhaps they're mundane and not worthy of a response, but I'll ask a few again.

1. They don't want the US to become Venezuela, but want a social democracy. So what country exemplifies your utopia?

2. Accusations against President Trump are presented as fact, you would have to be blind to not see it. Yet, in this country, one is innocent until proven guilty. I posed the question as to why it should be different for Trump and got nothing.

Feel free to add your own. Political debate is great as long as ideological blinders don't get in the way.
 
Per #1

I've had this discussion in academia for years. It waivers between Western European countries like Norway to the classic "nobody has ever done it correctly so we'll be the first one".
 
No matter how many times socialism/communism fails, they always say it was because the people in charges weren't smart enough or because of corruption or because they allowed some tiny bit of capitalism to creep in and wreck it all.

They love to point to nordic countries but they are not doing pure socialism. They are also starting to crack at the seams as they swell with immigrants that are not working. Of course some are, but large portions are just showing up for the free stuff.
 
Look... this "show me an example" doesn't work. What example do you want?

The truth is, in my mind, we've never had a perfect capitalistic republic yet either. The monopolies of the early 1900's kind of ****** that up and then the pendulum swung so far with unions that we lost our edge in the 1960's and 1970's. Socialism reared it's ugly head with Roosevelt but some of that has been tamed to be bearable.

The truth is the "perfect" government is probably a little bit of everything. All we are debating is the nuances of that system and where the slide is on the scale.

I've said on this board many times, I believe fundementally in capitalism. It's the only thing that has consistently worked in history and is sustainable. Does it "fix" all of society's ills? Of course not. But then I don't believe any "governmental system" can fix society's ills in the first place. That's a pipe dream. We are kind of flawed as a species and to expect some magical oganizational system to solve man's problems (sloth, wrath, vanity, lust, glutony, envy and pride) is just not going to happen.

I have amazing and almost godlike admiration for our founding fathers. Because I think they created the best government that actually counters man's inate flaws (all those seven deadly sins). The idea of small government. The idea of checks and balances. The idea of a republic of states. All those things are in place for the sole purpose of preventing the flaws of humanity from creeping into (and taking over) our government.

If I have a critique of our current goverment (vs. what the founders wanted and envisioned) is that it has all of humanity's flaws all over it now. And we have forgotton what the founders intended. This is not about capitalism vs. socialism. This about how we govern. How the people are represented. How what they want is enacted. And how the basic fundemental rights of the Constitution are protected (which are God given and can't be taken away by any government or majority).

Part of the reason we are so divided now and arguing "capitalism" vs. "socialism" is because our governing system is broken (due to all those deadly sins above) and we are all trying to find a way to "fix it" in our imaginary image of "perfection". And those images are not only idealistc and extreme, but probably not feasable (for either side). So we continue to get divided. Continue to bunker down into our strong beliefs of what we think will "work best".

Inaction and sinfulness from our elected officials is really what is driving all of this. And the only way it gets fixed is with them. We need better people. At all levels of government but especially in Washington.
 
Socialism is an ideal that fails to work because it needs people to be homogeneous to work... it will work on a small scale, when diversification is minimal but as more different needs, wants, and goals are thrown in it fails miserably every time...

Capitalism works because it doesn’t artificially limit choice... plus as long as governments keep monopolies and duopolies from forming, it handles most basic human corruption naturally... its flaws are more predictable and manageable for large diversified countries....
 
The biggest misconception I see constantly on this board and elsewhere, is the complete misunderstanding and confusion of the terms 'Socialism' and 'Democratic Socialism'. Look it up, these are fundamentally different things. Outside of a few fringe groups, nobody's talking about wanting socialism in the US. Bernie and others support and call for democratic socialism, which functions entirely within a capitalist, free market economic system. It's simply a fairer, more broad-based use of tax-payers' money, with a focus on education, health care, social services, etc. Yes, this means less money for tax breaks for corporations & the filthy rich and less money for military. Think FDR and the New Deal. It's simply a different approach to how the government spends its money, a different way to slice the federal spending pie. But it is neither socialism, nor communism or anything close to it. To have an adult conversation about these issues, it would help tremendously if people understood these basic principles. Until then, these discussions are wildly off base and frankly meaningless.
 
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Accusations against President Trump are presented as fact, you would have to be blind to not see it. Yet, in this country, one is innocent until proven guilty. I posed the question as to why it should be different for Trump and got nothing.
Of course Trump is innocent until proven guilty, that's not even a question. The Special Counsel thread is there to discuss and debate the ongoing investigation. It's funny to me how Trump supporters accuse the media and liberals of being frenzied and hysterical, yet seem to ignore the fact Trump himself is constantly - and I mean 24/7 - completely submerged and infatuated with the investigation. Trump spends most of his waking hours lashing out at the free press, Mueller and the FBI/DOJ. The hysteria and anxiety is coming straight from Trump, not from the media or those of us who post factual updates of what's happening with the case, or simply want to discuss its ramifications.
 
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I agree...
these discussions are wildly off base and frankly meaningless.

th
 
Of course Trump is innocent until proven guilty, that's not even a question. The Special Counsel thread is there to discuss and debate the ongoing investigation. It's funny to me how Trump supporters accuse the media and liberals of being frenzied and hysterical, yet seem to ignore the fact Trump himself is constantly - and I mean 24/7 - completely submerged and infatuated with the investigation. Trump spends most of his waking hours lashing out at the free press, Mueller and the FBI/DOJ. The hysteria and anxiety is coming straight from Trump, not from the media or those of us who post factual updates of what's happening with the case, or simply want to discuss its ramifications.

from the WSJ


By
Holman W. Jenkins, Jr.
Aug. 17, 2018 6:20 p.m. ET
The two biggest shoes are yet to drop in the 2016 investigations. We still don’t know the origins and back story of the intercepted Russian intelligence document that was pivotal in James Comey’s unprecedented, ill-advised and possibly decisive (according to numerous Democratic and independent election analysts) interventions in the presidential race.

Depending on what report you credit, the information was false, it was planted by the Russians, or it accurately indicated an illegal conspiracy to obstruct justice by the Clinton campaign and Obama Attorney General Loretta Lynch. If it was a Russian fabrication, then Mr. Comey was spoofed by the Kremlin into his improper intervention in the race. If the parties to the incepted exchange were simply misinformed, it’s hard to understand Mr. Comey’s reason for intervening.

Presumably some of the questions are answered in a still-secret annex to the inspector general’s report that criticized Mr. Comey’s performance, but even that won’t tell us everything we need to know. What did fellow intelligence agencies, such as the CIA, tell the FBI about this intercept? What did they advise Mr. Comey to do?

The second shoe concerns the Steele dossier. Who were the alleged Russian sources behind it? What were their motives? Go back and read Robert Mueller’s indictment of the Russian hackers in the DNC email theft. It is not a remarkable account of hacking, but it is remarkable that it exists, with its detailed re-creation of specific actions by specific Russian officials sitting at their laptops. Your government could use the same resources to get to the bottom of an episode that has had exponentially more influence on our political life than even Russia’s trafficking in DNC emails.

After all, a foreign citizen produces a catalog of unverifiable, scandalous accusations against a U.S. presidential candidate, attributed to unnamed Russian officials. Paying for this “opposition research” is the candidate of the party in power. Her confederates, including elected Democrats, conspire to use the FBI’s possession of this document to get U.S. media outlets to report allegations from sources who won’t identify themselves, who offer no support for their claims, passed along by an operator whose political motives are manifest.

George Smiley, the careful, methodical, skeptical spy of the John le Carré novels, would have considered it a matter of good housekeeping for any spy agency to learn how it might have been misled or manipulated into ill-advised actions. Both subjects fit into Robert Mueller’s remit. Both involve Russian influence on our election and include prima facie evidence of crimes by U.S. persons.

Unfortunately, our most prominent ex-spies bear no resemblance to George Smiley. If you are not by now open to the suspicion that the blowhardism of former Obama intelligence officials John Brennan and James Clapper is aimed at keeping the focus away from their actions during the election, then you haven’t been paying attention. In his New York Times op-ed this week after being stripped of his courtesy, postretirement security clearance, the CIA’s Mr. Brennan finally put his collusion cards on the table: Mr. Trump’s ill-advised remark during the campaign inviting Russia to find the missing Hillary Clinton emails.

Really? This is it? Mr. Trump’s behavior was typically unpresidential in the fashion that we have now become used to, such as referring to a fired White House employee as a dog. But his jibe was at least as much aimed at the media, which he correctly noted would eagerly traffic in the stolen emails even as it deplored Russian meddling.

When Mr. Trump tweets and blurts out so many offhand things, are you really going to build a “treason” case (a term Mr. Brennan has used) out of just another free-form Trump campaign riff of 2016? If that’s all he’s got, the secret knowledge Mr. Brennan keeps hinting at is a fabulous fraud.

Which brings us to the press. The two stories outlined above are of legitimate, pressing interest, but editors and reporters say to themselves: “Might not looking into these matters be construed as pro-Trump? We can’t have that.” Not one U.S. paper, despite lavish coverage of the DOJ inspector general’s report, even noted the existence of a secret appendix. According to reports in his own Washington Post, Bob Woodward’s forthcoming book will be an upmarket “Fire and Fury” looking into the known knowns of Mr. Trump’s chaotic first year in office. Meanwhile, history is screaming at Mr. Woodward to dig into the known unknowns of U.S. intelligence activities in the campaign that elected Mr. Trump.

In fact, these stories cut both ways. They suggest foolish if not corrupt meddling in the U.S. election by our own intelligence agencies, but also that Mr. Trump may occupy the White House because their malign intervention inadvertently pushed him over the top.
 
I agree...
My memory must be hazy, I don't seem to recall when we dropped capitalism and a free market economy during FDR's New Deal years. According to you, that must have happened.
 
Of course Trump is innocent until proven guilty, that's not even a question. The Special Counsel thread is there to discuss and debate the ongoing investigation. It's funny to me how Trump supporters accuse the media and liberals of being frenzied and hysterical, yet seem to ignore the fact Trump himself is constantly - and I mean 24/7 - completely submerged and infatuated with the investigation.

For someone that is allegedly on Twitter 24/7, he sure seems to get a lot done. Such as tax reform, appointing judges, endorsing and supporting candidates, establishing relationships with world leaders, renegotiating bad trade deals, getting our Korean war remains back, etc, He still needs to build that wall, but I have a feeling he will get the funding during the next budgeting/appropriations process. The fact that he wants to keep the Mueller probe debacle in the public consciousness is okay by me.
 
Democratic socialists are under the delusion that you can use the government to make the private sector more "fair" without giving government control. They don't understand that once you give the government that power - however intentioned - it is a one way street to classic socialism where the government controls the means of production. It is easy to get stupid people to vote for free stuff, so this is a possible outcome.
 
2. Accusations against President Trump are presented as fact, you would have to be blind to not see it. Yet, in this country, one is innocent until proven guilty. I posed the question as to why it should be different for Trump and got nothing.

Meh, that goes back to the Reagan years and Iran-Contra when the Democrats said there was no evidence and that's why we have to investigate.
 
For someone that is allegedly on Twitter 24/7, he sure seems to get a lot done. Such as tax reform, appointing judges, endorsing and supporting candidates, establishing relationships with world leaders, renegotiating bad trade deals, getting our Korean war remains back, etc, He still needs to build that wall, but I have a feeling he will get the funding during the next budgeting/appropriations process. The fact that he wants to keep the Mueller probe debacle in the public consciousness is okay by me.

he is definitely a man of action..
 
Democratic socialists are under the delusion that you can use the government to make the private sector more "fair" without giving government control. They don't understand that once you give the government that power - however intentioned - it is a one way street to classic socialism where the government controls the means of production. It is easy to get stupid people to vote for free stuff, so this is a possible outcome.
Yes, exactly what happened under FDR and the New Deal. America became a socialist country where the government controlled the means of production. I must have slept through that era during history class, and it's been wiped clean from all the history books. Oh well.
 
It's funny to me how Trump supporters accuse the media and liberals of being frenzied and hysterical, yet seem to ignore the fact Trump himself is constantly - and I mean 24/7 - completely submerged and infatuated with the investigation. Trump spends most of his waking hours lashing out at the free press, Mueller and the FBI/DOJ. The hysteria and anxiety is coming straight from Trump, not from the media or those of us who post factual updates of what's happening with the case, or simply want to discuss its ramifications.

Well perhaps if the media didn't start attempting to submarine Trump from the very second he announced his candidacy he would be a little more accepting and understanding of them. Unfortunately for them, they revealed what slimeballs they are immediately after he announced. They don't deserve unbiased treatment until they become unbiased themselves. Until then they should be treated as the opposition by Trump. You can't expect one side to be openly opposed to the other and get glowing treatment in return. The media is the militant propaganda arm of the Progressive party, pure and simple. It can't be denied because even they don't make any attempt to hide it any more.
 
Yes, exactly what happened under FDR and the New Deal. America became a socialist country where the government controlled the means of production. I must have slept through that era during history class, and it's been wiped clean from all the history books. Oh well.
WTF are you talking about?
 
I confess, I am not all that political, and other than an automotive site I'm interested in, this is the only site I frequently check.

So thanks for the responses, they've been informative.

The posts that start off with insults or inane meme's tells me the poster is looking for cheap, sophomoric points and lose me right there.

Lots of intelligent folks here and it's OK to have different points of view.

I'm more of an X's and O's type of guy, so actual facts impress me more than innuendo.
 
The biggest misconception I see constantly on this board and elsewhere, is the complete misunderstanding and confusion of the terms 'Socialism' and 'Democratic Socialism'. Look it up, these are fundamentally different things. Outside of a few fringe groups, nobody's talking about wanting socialism in the US. Bernie and others support and call for democratic socialism, which functions entirely within a capitalist, free market economic system. It's simply a fairer, more broad-based use of tax-payers' money, with a focus on education, health care, social services, etc. Yes, this means less money for tax breaks for corporations & the filthy rich and less money for military. Think FDR and the New Deal. It's simply a different approach to how the government spends its money, a different way to slice the federal spending pie. But it is neither socialism, nor communism or anything close to it. To have an adult conversation about these issues, it would help tremendously if people understood these basic principles. Until then, these discussions are wildly off base and frankly meaningless.

The thing about Nordic Socialism is that Economically they are capitalist with few restrictions on business but a tax rate on individuals of 60% or more. Because free stuff isn't free. more to the point the system in the economies of the Nordic countries have always been sluggish are starting to break down under the weight of the social programs and paying for all that free stuff. Add all the Mideastern and African Rapefugees that are burdening their systems now and the economic breakdown is accelerating.


You keep mentioning FDR and the New Deal like its a good thing. It isn't. It exploded governmental growth and debt. All the Alphabet agencies created via the new deal created regulations by unelected bureaucrats and made us less free while picking our pockets. More socialism even if you put the word democratic in front of it is not going to help it will however hasten the destruction of our REPUBLIC.
 
The thing about Nordic Socialism is that Economically they are capitalist with few restrictions on business but a tax rate on individuals of 60% or more. Because free stuff isn't free. more to the point the system in the economies of the Nordic countries have always been sluggish are starting to break down under the weight of the social programs and paying for all that free stuff. Add all the Mideastern and African Rapefugees that are burdening their systems now and the economic breakdown is accelerating.

I remember a George Will column from a long time ago where he wrote (my memory is fuzzy) that something like the 50 largest companies in Sweden were all founded before WWI. Not WWII. WWI.
 
I remember a George Will column from a long time ago where he wrote (my memory is fuzzy) that something like the 50 largest companies in Sweden were all founded before WWI. Not WWII. WWI.

Exactly.
 
I don't think "democratic socialists" realize how much a homogenous society with very like-minded, morally similar populations help the system work. Of course Bernie would admire Scandinavian countries and their political systems because where has Bernie been his entire life? Vermont. One of the most homogenous states in this country.

If you tried to replecate what Bernie envisions in his glass house in Vermont onto our entire country, it is going to fail and fail big. As they become more and more diverse, Europe is going to realize that not all cultures and not all people share the "if we all work together and give up a big chunk of our work efforts, we'll all be better off". This is partly because of inate racial and religious differences that people naturally stick to their own. Groups will form and the poisonous idea of "equality of outcome" will drive political decisions. And groups that "have less" (in whatever statistical measure they can find) start demanding "instead of working/giving equally, you (the entitled, the haves, the Jones') have to work/give MORE" because the "equality of outcomes" isn't there.

And I truly believe the quest for "equality of outcomes", if Democratic Socialism takes hold in a country as diverse and (already) racially divided as America, will lead to it's distruction, slowly but surely. It will literally bankrupt the country in death by 1000 cuts.
 
I've posted questions and statements to friends on the left here that go unanswered.

Perhaps they're mundane and not worthy of a response, but I'll ask a few again.

1. They don't want the US to become Venezuela, but want a social democracy. So what country exemplifies your utopia?

2. Accusations against President Trump are presented as fact, you would have to be blind to not see it. Yet, in this country, one is innocent until proven guilty. I posed the question as to why it should be different for Trump and got nothing.

Feel free to add your own. Political debate is great as long as ideological blinders don't get in the way.

1.No one is aiming for utopia we are not naive and ignorant like most on your side(cue the video of the 19 year old ignorant pothead in Seattle that is supposed to represent us) We are aiming for better outcomes, those outcomes are impossible under the current corpocracy.

There are many countries who have integrated socialist policies quite successfully, including the U.S.

2. How is that search for Obama's birth certificate coming along? Oh wait you got it then you wanted the long form....then you got that, so then you just went ahead and called him "the Kenyan."

Now what were you saying about presidents and facts again..........?
 
I don't think "democratic socialists" realize how much a homogenous society with very like-minded, morally similar populations help the system work. Of course Bernie would admire Scandinavian countries and their political systems because where has Bernie been his entire life? Vermont. One of the most homogenous states in this country.

If you tried to replecate what Bernie envisions in his glass house in Vermont onto our entire country, it is going to fail and fail big. As they become more and more diverse, Europe is going to realize that not all cultures and not all people share the "if we all work together and give up a big chunk of our work efforts, we'll all be better off". This is partly because of inate racial and religious differences that people naturally stick to their own. Groups will form and the poisonous idea of "equality of outcome" will drive political decisions. And groups that "have less" (in whatever statistical measure they can find) start demanding "instead of working/giving equally, you (the entitled, the haves, the Jones') have to work/give MORE" because the "equality of outcomes" isn't there.

And I truly believe the quest for "equality of outcomes", if Democratic Socialism takes hold in a country as diverse and (already) racially divided as America, will lead to it's distruction, slowly but surely. It will literally bankrupt the country in death by 1000 cuts.

Man I was completely wrong about you guys all along.............

aryan-family-nsdap.jpg
 
I think the ideal system would be somewhere in between democratic socialism Bernie talks about and the current polticial/economic system, probably skewered a bit to the current one. Current trends in wealth inequality cannot be maintained, the rich getting so much richer, the poor that much poorer. I think military spending is insane, even taking 20% of that and spending it on education and health care would do wonders. We cannot be bankrupting young people who choose to get a higher education only to be saddled with unsurmountable debt. We need to make sure we can take care of our vets and our elderly. And yes, there should be a social net for those that are homeless, unemployed or simply dirt poor. So I'd support the current capitalist/free market system with a bit more humanity, skewered less towards the military, wall st. corporations and the exteme wealthy. That would probably be a good place to start to improve things in the coming years. And I'm in favor of any and all programs that help incentivize small & medium sized businesses and entrepeneurs, be it through tax cuts, training and employment programs, low interest loans and grants for innovation and investment in infrastructure, etc. America is the wealthiest country on the planet. Seems we need to be smarter - and more forward looking - in how we slice up the federal spending budget. The elephant in the room is that our military budget is practically more than all other countries combined. Again, that's insane. If we spent 70-80% of what we do currently we'd still have the most powerful military on the planet, by a large margin. That would free up a lot of resources to spend making America a better place to live, for tens of millions of people..
 
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