Draft discussion thread.

[TMC]

I was under the impression that they started playing Troy as an extra ILB because their ILBs were being destroyed in the running game, not necessarily for shallow coverage. As I said, I like the player, I'm just not sure he's the stack and shed guy that they needed.

It's not like they drafted him over Fuller or Beckham, but I get this weird feeling that they would have.

Nah, Vince Williams is pretty good in the run game, especially compared to Troy as a LB. Troy cannot take on many pulling guards and win. He just lacks the size and ability to stand up to that kind of beating. They pulled Troy down into the box because when teams saw them in the standard 3-4 alignment, they just threw the football, even if it was to the TE, they knew he could beat Williams. They would also dump to back and the back could beat Williams as well. Just not enough ability in coverage and more teams are throwing the football today.

The one thing the Steelers defense used to do well was limit big plays. If you wanted to score on them, you had to grind them under 20 yards a play and just drive the ball. I think I read/heard somewhere that last season, they had 9 plays in the run game that was pretty significant (might have been on this board) and if you could deduct those 9 plays from the run game, they would have moved into the top 10 in run defense (from the bottom 10). That is pretty significant. When you view it in that light, it would lead me to believe that the run defense is not as bad as the big picture paints it, but regardless of stats, I know we blow in base pass defense. That has been the gorilla in the room for some time (going back to Farrior's final couple seasons).

 

[madinsomniac]

Look, I am stumped... I have no idea why we didn't trade down if we wanted this guy. he is fast, and they obviously want speed at that ILB position, and that's where I think he ends up, but I mean the value of this pick cant be there... he wasn't BPA and while I guess its a need, its not the biggest need on the team for a reach in the top 15. This draft had to yield impact players with short prep times, and round 1 doesn't look like that

 

[Idioteque]

Tombert, wow how childish can you get.

How can anyone be offended by that?

 

[antdrewjosh]

They could not trade down and still get him. The Cowboys had already turned a card in with his name assuming we were going to go CB

 

[Litos]

So you want them to reach for a player of need rather than take a BPA approach. Obviously they weren't as high on Fuller and Dennard as the media/draftnicks were, they had Shazier rated higher and that's who they took. For months on end we hear, "they better take BPA and not reach for a need" debates, and when they actually do that, it's "why didn't they pick ________" or "I just don't understand the logic behind the pick"

The logic is pretty simple, he was the highest rated player on their board at their pick. Agree with it or not, the logic is there and the logic is what this board was clamoring for all off season

+1.
The kid is a freak athlete, not only fast but strong too, 25 reps? beats a lot of other draftees in that category. Just turning 21 so I can see the potential being there and he definitly can see playing time in his rookie year, especially on passing downs

 

[dobre shunka]

Nah, Vince Williams is pretty good in the run game, especially compared to Troy as a LB. Troy cannot take on many pulling guards and win. He just lacks the size and ability to stand up to that kind of beating. They pulled Troy down into the box because when teams saw them in the standard 3-4 alignment, they just threw the football, even if it was to the TE, they knew he could beat Williams. They would also dump to back and the back could beat Williams as well. Just not enough ability in coverage and more teams are throwing the football today.

The one thing the Steelers defense used to do well was limit big plays. If you wanted to score on them, you had to grind them under 20 yards a play and just drive the ball. I think I read/heard somewhere that last season, they had 9 plays in the run game that was pretty significant (might have been on this board) and if you could deduct those 9 plays from the run game, they would have moved into the top 10 in run defense (from the bottom 10). That is pretty significant. When you view it in that light, it would lead me to believe that the run defense is not as bad as the big picture paints it, but regardless of stats, I know we blow in base pass defense. That has been the gorilla in the room for some time (going back to Farrior's final couple seasons).

http://steelernation.com/showthread.php?221-Allen-Robinson-or-Jordan-Matthews&p=5384&viewfull=1#post5384

http://steelernation.com/showthread.php?221-Allen-Robinson-or-Jordan-Matthews&p=5560&viewfull=1#post5560

Setting the D was the #1 problem on D last year. Even bigger than their biblical turnover drought. They solved it yesterday. Finally. We got to see first hand what even the loss of a very jaggy Foote can have on the whole D. 11 guys running around aimlessly. Was like looking under microscope at a specimen of Tommy Chong's sperm.

My issues with Shazier can be overcome. And quickly. He played light, in the 220s. But his big mitts and structure suggest he can easily carry more. He's got all the intangibles to be a great QB of the D. Foote was an A+ player prior to the snap, but a C- player after. Shazier can be that guy prior to the snap, can/will be far better than Foote after the snap. Nobody cared about Foote or Farrior playing in the 220s. Now all the sudden Shazier is an issue because of size? I agree with Tomlin/Colbert he needs to get bigger/add mass because that's still important. But until then, he's not going to be any bigger liability that Farrior/Foote were (because of size). Foote couldn't jump around blocks. That's how he got himself hurt. Shazier is like a surgeon in space. He has better speed/COD than the CBs and Safeties in this draft. Top flight athlete. This D needed a QB in the worst way. And they got one. They needed a freak athlete/speed. They got one. I'm more than fine with the pick.

 

[Litos]

They could not trade down and still get him. The Cowboys had already turned a card in with his name assuming we were going to go CB

also apparently no one was interested in trading for the pick so let's stop with the idea that this is madden and we can trade whenever we want

 

[antdrewjosh]

also apparently no one was interested in trading for the pick so let's stop with the idea that this is madden and we can trade whenever we want

Exactly. There was no trade down. Apparently the Steelers were prepared to take the kid over Fuller and Dennard. Perspective the top WR in this class a player that was taken by a team who traded up to get him ran 4.43. Shazier ran 4.38. All that speed with prodution. No more two tight ends sets killing us because we have to come out our base defense to defend it because only Timmons can defend a TE.

 

[SCSteeler4life]

http://www.cleveland.com/osu/index.ssf/2014/01/how_ohio_states_ryan_shazier_o.html

Take a moment and read this about Shazier....then tell me you do not like him. Other than questioning his fit, have to like the guy.

Great find TMC. In today's NFL guys like Shazier can help shape a locker room. Sounds like a solid guy on and off the field.

 

[TMC]

http://steelernation.com/showthread.php?221-Allen-Robinson-or-Jordan-Matthews&p=5384&viewfull=1#post5384

http://steelernation.com/showthread.php?221-Allen-Robinson-or-Jordan-Matthews&p=5560&viewfull=1#post5560

Setting the D was the #1 problem on D last year. Even bigger than their biblical turnover drought. They solved it yesterday. Finally. We got to see first hand what even the loss of a very jaggy Foote can have on the whole D. 11 guys running around aimlessly. Was like looking under microscope at a specimen of Tommy Chong's sperm.

My issues with Shazier can be overcome. And quickly. He played light, in the 220s. But his big mitts and structure suggest he can easily carry more. He's got all the intangibles to be a great QB of the D. Foote was an A+ player prior to the snap, but a C- player after. Shazier can be that guy prior to the snap, can/will be far better than Foote after the snap. Nobody cared about Foote or Farrior playing in the 220s. Now all the sudden Shazier is an issue because of size? I agree with Tomlin/Colbert he needs to get bigger/add mass because that's still important. But until then, he's not going to be any bigger liability that Farrior/Foote were (because of size). Foote couldn't jump around blocks. That's how he got himself hurt. Shazier is like a surgeon in space. He has better speed/COD than the CBs and Safeties in this draft. Top flight athlete. This D needed a QB in the worst way. And they got one. They needed a freak athlete/speed. They got one. I'm more than fine with the pick.

Knew I had read that somewhere. Again, my only issue is with his ability to stack and shed, handle the point. But, no Patrick Willis in this draft. Guys I liked (later) like Preston Brown and KP-L had issues. KP-L had the same issues, not quire the athlete or production. Brown's issues were coverage. Either way, still an issue with someone. And, Shazier is a lean guy, carries very low body fat, can easily add good weight to his frame. This is one where you have to hand a guy to the training staff to put some meat on him and hand him to the coaches to fix the few issues in his game. After sleeping on it, I am more than fine with the pick.

Did not love it last night, did not hate it either. I had a fear he was the guy prior to the pick, even stated as much prior to the selection.
http://steelernation.com/showthread.php?283-Draft-discussion-thread&p=6957&viewfull=1#post6957

Felt he was the guy prior to the announcement. Just questioned the fit. But, I get he has the grey matter. I like that. I get he is an athlete, like that too. I get he is productive, like that too. Lots of pluses on the guy, not many minuses.

Again, as I stated prior to the draft, I thought Fuller was the best choice for us, Fuller was gone. Never really cottoned up to Dennard. Don't really like Roby. Fuller would have been an option there, but he is a smaller corner (and I would be somewhat of a moron to pimp a short corner and slam a light ILB).

Now, I get that Foote and Farrior played light, but Farrior always played with pretty good leverage. Sure that Shazier can learn it. Just do not like how he gets bounced around sometimes, gets caught watching the play or waits and takes on the block, like to see him be on the move and be a harder target to hit. Again, can learn that. If our coaches cannot teach a guy how to help himself, what good are our coaches?

If it sounds like I hate the pick, not the case, I do not. I just question the fit, question his ability to handle the beating, question his ability to get off blocks. Other than that, not much else to dislike.

 

[insaniti]

There has only been one pick in the Tomlin era that I absolutely did not like, and that was Jones last year. I can see the logic behind most of the picks, and I understand that not all players will work out for a variety of different reasons. I didn't even see the Shazier pick coming, I know they visited with him, but I just didn't see it coming. With all the WR and CB talk, I thought for sure they would piss most of the board off with Benjamin.

I like what I see from Shazier, his work ethic, attitude, and his energy are all positives. I'm actually pretty excited about the pick the more I learn about him.

 

[Punxsutawney]

Nah, Vince Williams is pretty good in the run game, especially compared to Troy as a LB. Troy cannot take on many pulling guards and win. He just lacks the size and ability to stand up to that kind of beating. They pulled Troy down into the box because when teams saw them in the standard 3-4 alignment, they just threw the football, even if it was to the TE, they knew he could beat Williams. They would also dump to back and the back could beat Williams as well. Just not enough ability in coverage and more teams are throwing the football today.
).

Makes sense, though outside of a couple nice tackles, I do not recall Williams being much of presence against the run.

I'm just worried that without an ideal NT, the lack of a well-rounded LB at the strong side ILB spot it going to really be exposed. Not sure either Timmons or Shazier will be up to the task going forward.

 

[fedderone]

How can anyone be offended by that?

Because some people blew a gasket when someone referred to our QB as Big Biker.

 

[ark steel]

A bit disappointed in the pick as I really wanted to get a round-one-grade CB and another CB later in the draft. There are still some good CB's in the draft, though.

I didn't pay any attention to LB's in the draft, especially early rounds. As Idiot said (if he can keep from passing out that I agree with him), the idea that we could have gotten this guy in round 2 is just ridiculous.

I feell better about the pick today and might as well wait to see the guy play a few games before I make too much of a judgement on him.

 

[deljzc]

In my war room, I think the pick would have come down to Roby (CB) vs. Nix (NT) vs. Lee (WR).

That's assuming the talk before the draft had Roby higher than Dennard (which I did on my board).

I think Nix is being downgraded by medical so maybe he's a lot lower than his film indicates (and yes the NT is going the way of RB on draft boards). So that means the discussion was Roby vs. Lee.

I honestly would have picked both players ahead of Shazier for us and our depth chart. We will see how it turns out.

 

[Idioteque]

I think Nix is being downgraded by medical so maybe he's a lot lower than his film indicates (and yes the NT is going the way of RB on draft boards).

For me, it's also the fact that he's become a NT in name only. He spent much of last year drawing a lot of single blocks. Yikes. There are certainly a few legit NTs in this draft, but Nix is just not a first-rounder by the Xs and Os IMO.

 

[Coryea]

10-15 years ago drafting this guy to play ILB would've been horrible, but you don't need a 250lb thumper at ILB anymore, teams don't run the ball 40 times a game, it's all geared around spread passing games. He may be a bust, but he's already listed as weighing more than Timmons. Our defense has lacked speed big time and we haven't been able to cover Rb's or Te's with our Lb's or S's recently, we signed Mitchell from carolina who ran a 4.45, and we drafted speed at ILB last night.

 

[Coryea]

And if our O can play like it was the last half of the season, teams won't have the luxury of running the ball.

 

[TMC]

To be honest, I thought Fuller fit us best, thought he would be there too. Heard some rumblings that they did not covet Fuller or Dennard at #15. Fuller was gone. When I went to see who was there (was just certain Fuller would make it), that is when I noticed Shazier sitting there, guy ranked in the top 20, elite athlete, ILB, fit the criteria.

I would have tried to trade it down, not going to state otherwise, I would have. I know that would have been trading away from Shazier, but that would have been the move. Also heard no offers came, made it quite simple you have to make the pick. Never quite warmed up to Dennard. I liked Verrett better even though Dennard had the size. Would have been hard to justify reaching for Verrett. No OL or DL did it for me. No pass rusher. I have stated many times that at WR, I did not really like any inside the top 20. Kind of limits where you would go and I did have Shazier in my top 25 guys, just felt he was a 4-3 WLB.

I guess when I boil it down, would not have been elated with any pick, maybe one of the safeties (Pryor or Clinton-Dix). Blah. One of those situations where you have to pick someone.

It is only one pick. Lots of drafting yet to do.

 

[Wingman]

After a nights sleep this guy May not have been a reach and May have been a smart pick. Maybe Spence is the real deal maybe not but he is here, Timmons is here, Jarvis is here and maybe more than we have seen so far or not, and Worilds is here but at a high price. We have 4 linebacker spots and 5 linebackers that are rated high by our team. With contracts being what they are this could have been a pick for the future so as to keep one of the 4 that is already here from holding us up at contract time. The draft info that was posted on here makes him look better than I thought he was. The fact that the Cowgirls had turned in a pick for the guy right behind us and then had to change the pick confirms this somewhat. I would have rather had Martin and him being taken right behind us also indicates he was a viable pick as well. Linebacker was not a position that had lots of quality deep in this years crop of talent so taking one early may have been better than taking someone late only to have to cut him later in effect wasting the pick.

Somethings not directly related to the draft that also add to this being a better pick than many of us may have realized as far as need and value go, are the addition of some assistant coaches to our ranks. Joey Porter as well as Butler likely had some input regarding this pick and his value on the board. As far as offensive linemen go Munchak may have had some input regarding what we have and what he thinks he can do with them as well as what was available at our pick. There were lots of wide outs and corners out there and do to some holes in their games may not have been much better than a lot of what was left at their respective positions.

The fact that the pick did not hit the podium at the 2 second mark may have indicated that some discussion took place and some offers to trade may have been entertained and were not considered valuable enough to go in a different direction.

At this point Tombert may have done well, in finding the best value on the board, picking for long term, and filling a need. It also allows a bit of time to develop him as a player. One other thing to consider the steelers drafted a tall skinny linebacker once before who turned out to be pretty good, his name was Jack Lambert.

 

[deljzc]

To be honest, I thought Fuller fit us best, thought he would be there too. Heard some rumblings that they did not covet Fuller or Dennard at #15. Fuller was gone. When I went to see who was there (was just certain Fuller would make it), that is when I noticed Shazier sitting there, guy ranked in the top 20, elite athlete, ILB, fit the criteria.

I would have tried to trade it down, not going to state otherwise, I would have. I know that would have been trading away from Shazier, but that would have been the move. Also heard no offers came, made it quite simple you have to make the pick. Never quite warmed up to Dennard. I liked Verrett better even though Dennard had the size. Would have been hard to justify reaching for Verrett. No OL or DL did it for me. No pass rusher. I have stated many times that at WR, I did not really like any inside the top 20. Kind of limits where you would go and I did have Shazier in my top 25 guys, just felt he was a 4-3 WLB.

I guess when I boil it down, would not have been elated with any pick, maybe one of the safeties (Pryor or Clinton-Dix). Blah. One of those situations where you have to pick someone.

It is only one pick. Lots of drafting yet to do.

Kind of how I feel too.

I find the double talk from Colbert/Tomlin (love his speed and age when last year we draft slow and old) amusing, but this is clearly Tomlin's team. I think there are legitimate concerns with the Colbert/Tomlin marriage based on the past 7 year track record, but clearly the Rooney's do not.

I'm on record as wanting to fire Colbert this year and re-establish the GM/coach line. Not happening. Not happening anytime soon. Even with more 8-8 seasons.

Tomlin continues to have more impact on roster decisions. He's not losing power, he's gaining power.

I don't agree with that direction. I'm concerned. It's not just the about the Shazier pick. I agree he's an okay choice. It's more about what the Shazier pick tells me about the power structure of the Steelers right now. What the Shazier pick continues to re-enforce as this team's philosophies on defense.

I love the talk about speed and the direction the league is going, but we kicked some major *** with Haggans/Woodley, Farrior, Foote and Harrison. I don't think I'd describe any of those as "run-and-hit" WILL linebackers in the Derrick Brooks mold.

You draft speed, you lose some toughness and the ability to punch teams in the mouth. You can't have it all (despite the spin from Colbert/Tomlin).

I'm worried. But as you say - lots of picks yet to go.

 

[antdrewjosh]

Del its a totally different ball game. Even in our division. Teams pass way more. I dont agree with the its a Tomlin pick stuff. Perhaps they all agree with the direction the league is going in. Teams arent lining up in the Power I and pounding the rock. They are being cute with it. Coming out in spread formations forcing you to line up in nickle defenses and then running the ball. We have to adjust. Polamalu playing LB didnt work. We missed his speed on the back end.

 

[steelerscotty]

All the talk of "never pick by need, always BPA" and then i read (sorry can't post link) where Tomlin and Colbert both said the pick was based on our " need for a defensive playmaker ". They also claim he was the highest player on their board. So much for " if you have red paint you paint the barn red". If they set up the board based on need then soon we will be remembering 8-8 seasons as the good ole days! That said, I hope shazier tears up the league and makes a believer out of us all . . .go steelers!

 

[Idioteque]

All the talk of "never pick by need, always BPA" and then i read (sorry can't post link) where Tomlin and Colbert both said the pick was based on our " need for a defensive playmaker ". They also claim he was the highest player on their board. So much for " if you have red paint you paint the barn red". If they set up the board based on need then soon we will be remembering 8-8 seasons as the good ole days! That said, I hope shazier tears up the league and makes a believer out of us all . . .go steelers!

The issue of BPA v. need has to do with specific positions. Being old and slow and needing a defensive playmaker, then drafting one isn't the same as "We lost a CB in free agency, so let's draft a CB in the first round!"

Simply put.. outside of Hageman, there was no defensive player with a higher ceiling than Shazier on the board at #15. And Shazier isn't a "hidden upside" guy like Justin Gilbert, a freak athlete/workout warrior buried under mountains of weaknesses.

 

[deljzc]

I disagree it's "totally different". I think that's blow way out of proportion. I think stopping the run and getting into 3rd and long situation is still the way to win football games. It's still about getting the QB off his spot, smacking him in the mouth and sacking him on occasion. It's about beating the guy in front of you, not running around him. I don't Seattle plays "soft" and I don't think Seattle is forcing speed over toughness. I don't think San Francisco or Cincinnati (two very talented defensive units) are following this "smaller, faster, nickle" talk. Cincinnati has a MLB that runs a 5.0. Their front 4 is dominating with power and ability.

We will see if adding Mitchell and Shazier make up our very week and very thin D-line. The proof is in the pudding. We'll have to wait until the games are played.