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Evaluating the first-round CBs

  • Thread starter Thread starter Idioteque
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Idioteque

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Kyle Fuller, Virginia Tech - Sumbitch. This is a near-blue-chip CB prospect. Just about the entire package is here. He's long and a great leaper, extends his whole body and stretches his arms effortlessly. His vision and awareness of the route and the ball are fantastic. His physicality cannot be overstated - he is simply a violent player who seeks out contact. Knows when to strike. Fills in against the run in downhill fashion and seems to love shattering the ballcarrier. He's experienced inside and out. He's played CB and safety (and linebacker). Aside from blazing speed, it's all there.

The downside to me is that ultra-physical style. For one, he's been nicked throughout his college career. For another, this is Roger's New NFL. As Dave put it, "It's the pink team vs. the other pink team." Those devastating hits will turn into penalties and fines on the next level, and the injuries certainly aren't going to decrease in the NFL.

Still, I think he's the class of this year's crop. A potential franchise CB. He may not be the athletic marvel that Peterson is, but he'll be a good team's best CB for awhile. Looks to me like a rich man's Sheldon Brown, and Sheldon Brown was a damn good CB himself.

Darqueze Dennard, Michigan State - M'eh. Looks pretty good, I guess. Good backpedal, tough, good awareness of the ball, quick hands. Unlike most CBs, he's a legit first-round guy. I'd happily take him in the 20s. But like a good-not-great painting that looks awesome from across the room, the closer you inch toward Dennard, the more you see, and the more you notice all of the imperfections. Did he shut down receivers on a great statistical level? Yes, but who were they? How many will be big-time NFL prospects? I know he played vs. Cody Latimer for part of their matchup, and Latimer beat him for a red zone TD. Anyone else? Did he take on any dazzling passing offenses that required great CB play? Maybe a Big Ten guy can fill me in on this. All I know is that when I start looking through available film for a player, I look for quality opponents, and with Dennard, I had to settle for crap like Nebraska and Michigan, with run-first-and-run-second QBs throwing to practice squad WRs.

Also, it must be noted that Dennard played almost exclusively on the short side of the field, getting help from the sideline. Of all the snaps I watched, he played on the wide side exactly FOUR TIMES. Once he was in the slot. On two of the other three, he did not have a receiver to cover at all. I wonder big-time about why he was schemed onto the short side for probably 95% of their snaps. Did he NEED the sideline's help that much? I mean, this is a guy who put up amazing coverage metrics this year; why the hell wouldn't his coaches just stick him on the best receiver? Why would they pull him off of Latimer for huge chunks of the game unless they felt they needed to keep him on the short side?

And, yes, he is extremely grabby. It saves him from being beaten downfield, and it will be noticed and called more and more as his NFL career goes on.

I like Dennard as a short-to-intermediate man corner. I think he'll do a nice job on quick slants and short outside throws - on the short side of the field, of course. But no, I don't forsee him shutting down NFL WRs down the field nearly as often as he did in the Big Ten.

Justin Gilbert, Oklahoma State - Someone's gonna have to sit me down and explain the top-15 hype here. Yes, he ran a fast 40, but he plays nowhere near that time. He's a long-strider who never knows which direction he should be going and takes a ton of false steps. If a guy flashes this, it can be coached away. If he looks like this on most of his snaps, I'm very concerned. He's played the position for awhile and played against high-powered offenses. Why is he still so hesitant and prone to mistakes?

I do like his turnover potential, though. He flashes that quick-break-and-snatch-it ability that we haven't had since, oh, Rod effing Woodson. And he did show fairly well vs. Green-Beckham last year, who would be a top-5 pick if not for his dismissal. Still, I think he's a late-first prospect. He just looks too soft (at times) and too far behind the learning curve for me to invest heavily in.
 
From what I watched fuller struggles against the deep ball. Also his injuries are a concern. I hope we take Beckham or Shazier at 1.15 and get a corner later.
 
Speed is hard to teach. So is being tall. other than those things a lot can be taught. We have Lake in the secondary as a coach and he should be a great teacher. I think he will improve the young guys a lot. In looking at Gilbert's eval it looks like his false steps could be eliminated with his understanding of the defense or being put into a better defense. The short side of the field guy maybe over there to limit the effect of a lack of speed. Shorter distances will do that. The grabby guy may turn into a penalty machine in the nfl. Many of those penalties will be automatic first downs. The grabby tendency maybe from his lack of blazing speed and his way of covering it up. These guys sound good but one does not seem to jump way ahead of the others as they all have holes in their game. The Gilbert guy seems to have a lot of the tools but may need to have better coaching and develop a better understanding of the game. Corner backs with out speed are a bit of a problem in the game now. The pass rush is slowed, ours is slower and with time these guys (the ones with out speed) will get beat like a drum at a preschool.

I hope we find one who is tall and fast and can be taught instead of looking for the pedigree or numbers in college that may not translate to the nfl. A good example of this is Jarvis, now it is only his first year in experienceand he may get better but it still remains to be seen. The guy had really good numbers in college and played a similar position but it did not seem to work well for him last year, I hope he improves and has a breakout season this year.
 
I'm a little confused where this board's love of Fuller came from or how he's in the conversation for pick #15.

I like him as a prospect and think he's very good from 1-15 yards off the line of scrimmage, but I see a lot to be concerned about down the field. I think taking him top-20 is not a wise move and I still have a 2nd round grade on him.

We'll see, but I still have Gilbert, Dennard and Roby a whole tier higher than Fuller and I still think Roby is the most complete CB prospect in this draft.

I still think they stay away from CB all-together in round 1 and wait and see who's left at pick #46.
 
I'm a little confused where this board's love of Fuller came from or how he's in the conversation for pick #15.

I like him as a prospect and think he's very good from 1-15 yards off the line of scrimmage, but I see a lot to be concerned about down the field. I think taking him top-20 is not a wise move and I still have a 2nd round grade on him.

We'll see, but I still have Gilbert, Dennard and Roby a whole tier higher than Fuller and I still think Roby is the most complete CB prospect in this draft.

I still think they stay away from CB all-together in round 1 and wait and see who's left at pick #46.

I think Dennard is the pick if he's on the board and something shocking (like Evans falling) hasn't happened. Where do you think they will go in round 1 if not CB?
 
I'm a little confused where this board's love of Fuller came from or how he's in the conversation for pick #15.

I like him as a prospect and think he's very good from 1-15 yards off the line of scrimmage, but I see a lot to be concerned about down the field. I think taking him top-20 is not a wise move and I still have a 2nd round grade on him.

We'll see, but I still have Gilbert, Dennard and Roby a whole tier higher than Fuller and I still think Roby is the most complete CB prospect in this draft.

I still think they stay away from CB all-together in round 1 and wait and see who's left at pick #46.

Well hell, our CBs play 10+ yards off the receiver anyway so that negates his strength right there.
 
I think Dennard is the pick if he's on the board and something shocking (like Evans falling) hasn't happened. Where do you think they will go in round 1 if not CB?

I still think WR and D-line are where I'd place my bets. That is based on past history of Colbert, Tomlin, Lebeau and this organization.

I think Lee, Beckham, Ebron, Nix and Hageman are the front runners and we are looking to trade back to get one of them. Lewan is a long shot, but certainly not out of the question if he's available.
 
I'm a little confused where this board's love of Fuller came from or how he's in the conversation for pick #15.

I like him as a prospect and think he's very good from 1-15 yards off the line of scrimmage, but I see a lot to be concerned about down the field. I think taking him top-20 is not a wise move and I still have a 2nd round grade on him.

We'll see, but I still have Gilbert, Dennard and Roby a whole tier higher than Fuller and I still think Roby is the most complete CB prospect in this draft.

All depends on what you covet in a CB. If you like one great play followed by 25 awful ones, Gilbert is your guy. If you like an ultra-soft guy with promise who's allergic to tackling and regressed badly throughout college, go for Roby.

As for me, I want ball skills. I want the ability to make a play on the ball, but also the willingness. Furthermore, I'd like a guy who doesn't play scared and/or lazy, so that spits out Roby and Gilbert as first-round guys.

I still think they stay away from CB all-together in round 1 and wait and see who's left at pick #46.

I'd like that. Aside from Fuller, I just see borderline first/second guys. One of Roby, Verrett, or Roberson will be there at 46 where they belong.
 
Apparently, Kyle Fuller has now moved up as the No. 1 CB on Mike Maycock's board.
 
I like Fuller in a potential trade down scenario. I'd be fine with him at #19. I think the Fins are going to try to move up for Lewan or Zack Martin, and the teams between us and them (Cowboys, Ravens, Jets) all would be potential suitors for a tackle. In moving back, the Jets are the only team I'd worry about in terms of snagging Fuller. But if both Fuller and Dennard are on the board at #15, one would almost certainly be available at #19. The Steelers really need an extra 3rd this year.
 
I like Fuller in a potential trade down scenario. I'd be fine with him at #19. I think the Fins are going to try to move up for Lewan or Zack Martin, and the teams between us and them (Cowboys, Ravens, Jets) all would be potential suitors for a tackle. In moving back, the Jets are the only team I'd worry about in terms of snagging Fuller. But if both Fuller and Dennard are on the board at #15, one would almost certainly be available at #19. The Steelers really need an extra 3rd this year.


Garrett,

Agreed. I think this would be the deal. We don't move too far and as long as we still have at least five equally graded player on our board when we get to #15.


.
 
why isn't Roby mentioned in the discussion? I've seen some mocks with him going in the first.
Not saying I'd want him at 15.
isn't a legit 1st rounder?
 
After watching a lot of these "top" prospects, I can see that while they are the "top" rated guys, there isn't much between them and the next 10 guys that you can point to. None are 'shut-down' CBs, imo.

I like Fuller the best because of his ability to contribute against the run. With this attribute, IMO, you either have it in you or you don't. Too much emphasis is put on height and not as much on size when the 'draftniks' lay out their board, which in turn causes more people to look more exclusively at those players (they have more available tape too). What I look for is a player who can fight off blocks and impact the run game first, has ball/field/down and distance awareness second, has the scrappy mentality of most productive NFL CBs and has the tools to stay with his man.

IMO, if you want a pure cover guy, go with Phillip Gaines or Gilbert. Want a guy who plays well against the run and the pass then go for Fuller, Roby, Verrett, EJ Gaines and Jaylen Watkins. I don't see enough in Dennard to put him up there as either but he is good.
 
why isn't Roby mentioned in the discussion? I've seen some mocks with him going in the first.
Not saying I'd want him at 15.
isn't a legit 1st rounder?

That was my first batch of guys. I gave Roby an early 2nd grade, behind Verrett.
 
After watching a lot of these "top" prospects, I can see that while they are the "top" rated guys, there isn't much between them and the next 10 guys that you can point to. None are 'shut-down' CBs, imo.

I like Fuller the best because of his ability to contribute against the run. With this attribute, IMO, you either have it in you or you don't. Too much emphasis is put on height and not as much on size when the 'draftniks' lay out their board, which in turn causes more people to look more exclusively at those players (they have more available tape too). What I look for is a player who can fight off blocks and impact the run game first, has ball/field/down and distance awareness second, has the scrappy mentality of most productive NFL CBs and has the tools to stay with his man.

IMO, if you want a pure cover guy, go with Phillip Gaines or Gilbert. Want a guy who plays well against the run and the pass then go for Fuller, Roby, Verrett, EJ Gaines and Jaylen Watkins. I don't see enough in Dennard to put him up there as either but he is good.
I like Dennard the best of the "top 3"

but in preference, give me Roberson and Exum later.
 
Roberson and Exum are studs. I'd take either on a par with Gilbert, maybe even sooner.
 
I'll be the first to admit I have had difficulty in the past judging CB prospects. And there has been a lot of recent history of top prospects not panning out. Just going by NFL Draft Scout, here are the top-5 prospect year-to-year.

2013 - Milliner, Rhodes, Trufant, Hayden, J. Taylor
2012 - Claiborne, Gilmore, Kirkpatrick, Jenkins, J. Robinson
2011 - Peterson, Amukamara, J. Smith, A. Williams, B. Harris, Dowling
2010 - Haden, K. Wilson, McCourty, K. Jackson, P. Robinson
2009 - M. Jenkins, D. Butler, V. Davis, A. Smith, S. Smith
2008 - McKelvin, Mi. Jenkins, Rogers-Cromartie, Cason, Talib
2007 - Hall, Revis, Ross, Houston, Wade

If you eliminate those that were graded top-10 prospects (Claiborne, Peterson, Haden), it's been a crap shoot on all the others. Maybe a 50-50 proposition. While almost all of the above are still in the league (that's a good thing), as far as quality or worth the pick? That's a tough call.

It is obvious to me, there is not a legit, top-10 talent in the draft at CB, so my only conclusion is out of Gilbert, Roby, Dennard, Fuller and Verrett at least two (maybe 3) will not really live up to expectations. I think conclusively we can say all will "make it" on rosters for at least 5 years, but whether they solidify a spot on the roster is very much open to debate.

In the past I remember liking Rhodes, Dowling and Butler and I don't think I did too well in my evaluation. I liked the size. Then I thought Alphonso Smith would be really good but he LACKED size.

So maybe I should just forget about the too big and too short guys and stick with 5'-11 to 6'-0 and 195-205 lbs.
 
well, delz...then Exum is your dude.
fits the size you just stipulated and weight. He measured at 6'0" 213 at the combine. He also did 17 reps on the bench. His 40 was a bit pedestrian, but he's also just a year or so removed from an ACL tear.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEhFrt50Kqg

looks to me like playing against Bryant, Watkins and Florida State may have seasoned him. I know this is just a highlight reel, but it would appear he's got the ability to track the ball, has good hands and can make the strip. His size alone would make him at least viable for a move to safety if he doesn't turn out at CB.
 
I've been riding the Dennard bandwagon for a while. You never know with our FO who they might draft given the BPA philosophy. Now we have some glaring holes and DB, DT and ILB are immediate need positions. They could trade down a few spots to try and get an extra pick later for some cheap labor but I think you stay put in round 1 and get Dennard.
 
well, delz...then Exum is your dude.
fits the size you just stipulated and weight. He measured at 6'0" 213 at the combine. He also did 17 reps on the bench. His 40 was a bit pedestrian, but he's also just a year or so removed from an ACL tear.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEhFrt50Kqg

looks to me like playing against Bryant, Watkins and Florida State may have seasoned him. I know this is just a highlight reel, but it would appear he's got the ability to track the ball, has good hands and can make the strip. His size alone would make him at least viable for a move to safety if he doesn't turn out at CB.

I am not that big a fan of Exum. I think he's too big and won't be able to play corner like he did in college. I know we don't mind guys that give "cushions" but my god, Exum gives 15 yard cushions sometimes.

Here is his tape vs. Clemson:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3bvTliqG7Q

He practically gives up 8 yard plays because he can't keep up with Watkins or Bryant. He lacks functional speed. And I wouldn't call his tackling stellar (it's good). I don't think he has the change of direction to play in the slot either.

I am leaning towards Exum as a safety.
 
I like Fuller in a potential trade down scenario. I'd be fine with him at #19. I think the Fins are going to try to move up for Lewan or Zack Martin, and the teams between us and them (Cowboys, Ravens, Jets) all would be potential suitors for a tackle. In moving back, the Jets are the only team I'd worry about in terms of snagging Fuller. But if both Fuller and Dennard are on the board at #15, one would almost certainly be available at #19. The Steelers really need an extra 3rd this year.

Fuller = trade down target

1.15 = oddell beckham jr. IMO
 
I am not that big a fan of Exum. I think he's too big and won't be able to play corner like he did in college. I know we don't mind guys that give "cushions" but my god, Exum gives 15 yard cushions sometimes.

Here is his tape vs. Clemson:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3bvTliqG7Q

He practically gives up 8 yard plays because he can't keep up with Watkins or Bryant. He lacks functional speed. And I wouldn't call his tackling stellar (it's good). I don't think he has the change of direction to play in the slot either.

I am leaning towards Exum as a safety.

i see exum as a SS.
 
Here is what I dont understand-

People keep saying BPA, BPA.

But keep suggesting Odell, Cooks etc.. Arent these guys like the 4th/5th best WR's in the draft?

If thats the case, I easily take Dennard, who is at worst, the 3rd best DB.

Honestly I would look at K.Benjamin & Ebron before Odell and Cooks. Some of you want our receiving corp to look like the freggin Lollipop Guild lol
 
They are the 4th/5th WRs in the draft depending on whom you ask. If you think they are that poor, tell me the difference, OTHER THAN HEIGHT, between Beckham, Cooks, and Sammy Watkins. I'll wait.
 
I'd be ok with Odell Beckham at 1/15...

or Fuller....or Dennard.

but not Ebron.

rather have Niklas later, IF they even draft a TE...which they probably will.
 
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