Fake punt

[Fiji Mariner]

Yeah, but I think we can also add the obvious and brutal hold not called on Washington on the 48-yard field goal. Maybe the guy kicks a 58-yarder, but more likely Washington just punts in that spot. Washington gets 3 points out of that.

Or the failure to call a safety when Watt was blatantly held in the Commanders' end zone. That's 2 points and good field position gone.

I think the lack of calls on actual scoring plays are more important than non-calls on what might have been a scoring drive several plays later if things fall into place.

Sounds like you and Confluence are actually agreeing on the one constant in the NFL

The officiating always sucks

So many bad calls and non calls it gets hard to watch at times, other games the refs wanna talk after every damn play. Zebras are worse than the Giants, Titans or Panthers

 

[Fiji Mariner]

the NFL official commentating opined that the play should have been whistled for forward progress, but it wasn't. Warren was all effort and got held up by several Commandos before the ball came out a split second before he was down. in hindsight, yeah, both arms around the ball. But he was making an effort play with the ball.

Pierre was the opposite. He dropped the ST play (why is he on the team?), missed a couple tackles and on the one play he was involved in that was "good" for the Steelers, the refs missed calling him for PI as Sask pointed out above.

No comparison in my book.

People would
Lose their effin minds if a RB fighting for a TD a yard away from the goal line was whistled down by “forward progress”.

I’ve seen that play result in a win for the RB several times where the RB breaks into the EZ for a score, it was a good let the play come to a conclusion moment and an obvious fumble.

I’d be irate if our back met a little resistance and was whistled down that close to scoring.

 

[slashsteel]

People would
Lose their effin minds if a RB fighting for a TD a yard away from the goal line was whistled down by “forward progress”.

I’ve seen that play result in a win for the RB several times where the RB breaks into the EZ for a score, it was a good let the play come to a conclusion moment and an obvious fumble.

I’d be irate if our back met a little resistance and was whistled down that close to scoring.

I think in wet conditions Warren has issues with ball security. In the red zone you are arguably in a higher traffic area.

Not so sure with those combined factors that Warren should be used there.

That is the second time within the game I would have used someone different on a given play.

Minimize your players greatest weaknesses by not putting them in positions to fail.

 

[madinsomniac]

Its fine to be aggressive, but again there is a risk/reward assessment that has to be done.

I think its great that the staff recognized a flaw in their punt coverage, but lets break this down piece by piece:

1. It wasnt 4th and 5 or something, it was 4th and 15...

2. The LOS was the 16.

3. The Washington offense hadn't done anything at that point

4. The Ball was being thrown from a Safety to a Cornerback

5. It was the first quarter and they only had a one score lead

Lets say it completes. He likely gets tackled almost immediately. So they get a first down right around the 35... this is a typical drive start location. It still has a low probability to generate any points

If it doesn't work, the Ex-skins get the ball in the Red zone. This is almost certainly giving them 3 points with a high probability of a tying td

You would NEVER want a coach to risk a 4th-1 at their own 16 in the 1st quarter with a 1 score lead, so you dont risk this

I get it was a read/audible.. but you save that attempt till you are out of tge red zone and your d has a fighting chance if you dont make it

As with all strategy, there are dynamic components.. if we are down late or up big such gambles become more reasonable

Later in the game, the strategy was really good... but this was poor for a variety of reasons...

Even had it succeeded, it still would have been a bad bet. It was like the early 4th down attempt behind our own 40 in the indy game... a kneejerk gamble with low reward and high risk.

Part of it could be not adjusting success ratios for the defensive downturn in the league of the past couple years. Its not quite as slanted in the offenses favor so too aggressive isnt the boon as it used to be...

Look at the Bengals and their coach as a good example...

They should have held this off until the down and distance was shorter, and the los was ten or more yards further from the end zone.
It wasnt like that was going to be the only punt that game...

 

[Drink IRON City]

And the most dangerous poker players at the table is an unpredictable one,
Tomlin has been predictable AF in the past and content to win $20 and sit on it (9-8, 10-7)


Maybe he’s actually ready to shove his chips all
In, take some risks and win a big pot instead of counting his money while he’s sitting at the table like the last several years.

One can only hope that the “spirit of Los Vagas” has fallen on his shoulders and slipped into his ear. Now the whispering will be constant and the pudding shall taste good.

I think there has been a shift in ownership, and coaching from top to bottom. I think Kahn and Wield have a bigger hand in hiring. I also think Coach Tomlin was given some heavy talk at the end of last season’s PO blow-out.

Fast Forward to todays translation————————

Coach Tom Lin is showing change, regardless of how it was / is being presented. Todays call, showed desperation in changing season(s) perceived out comes. It is working to date and I commend him for it.

The Journey has been enjoyable, exciting, and making me want to be entertained by more. My expectations are still two PO wins, but am accepting a greater portion of HOPE along the way.


Salute the nation

 

[Drink IRON City]

Sounds like you and Confluence are actually agreeing on the one constant in the NFL

The officiating always sucks

So many bad calls and non calls it gets hard to watch at times, other games the refs wanna talk after every damn play. Zebras are worse than the Giants, Titans or Panthers

KEEP in mind that’s the Zebras are trained and controlled by the NFL…..aka the “Rog”.


Salute the nation

 

[Troglodyte]

That play is not a question of fear or no fear. It was a question of necessity. There was no reason to call it..none. It was not smart at all.

The margin of victory is small in most NFL games. When you see what should be an easy conversion opportunity, you need to seize upon it. That’s exactly what that play was. What you’re arguing is that the Steelers should have given possession back to Washington knowing they could, in all likelihood, keep possession.

 

[bermudasteel]

Its fine to be aggressive, but again there is a risk/reward assessment that has to be done.

I think its great that the staff recognized a flaw in their punt coverage, but lets break this down piece by piece:

1. It wasnt 4th and 5 or something, it was 4th and 15...

2. The LOS was the 16.

3. The Washington offense hadn't done anything at that point

4. The Ball was being thrown from a Safety to a Cornerback

5. It was the first quarter and they only had a one score lead

Lets say it completes. He likely gets tackled almost immediately. So they get a first down right around the 35... this is a typical drive start location. It still has a low probability to generate any points

If it doesn't work, the Ex-skins get the ball in the Red zone. This is almost certainly giving them 3 points with a high probability of a tying td

You would NEVER want a coach to risk a 4th-1 at their own 16 in the 1st quarter with a 1 score lead, so you dont risk this

I get it was a read/audible.. but you save that attempt till you are out of tge red zone and your d has a fighting chance if you dont make it

As with all strategy, there are dynamic components.. if we are down late or up big such gambles become more reasonable

Later in the game, the strategy was really good... but this was poor for a variety of reasons...

Even had it succeeded, it still would have been a bad bet. It was like the early 4th down attempt behind our own 40 in the indy game... a kneejerk gamble with low reward and high risk.

Part of it could be not adjusting success ratios for the defensive downturn in the league of the past couple years. Its not quite as slanted in the offenses favor so too aggressive isnt the boon as it used to be...

Look at the Bengals and their coach as a good example...

They should have held this off until the down and distance was shorter, and the los was ten or more yards further from the end zone.
It wasnt like that was going to be the only punt that game...

There's a lotta word salad here, I get it, but like I said - the WHOLE LEAGUE looks at Pittsburgh differently now. No more 'cookie cutter' decisions...

 

[Troglodyte]

Its fine to be aggressive, but again there is a risk/reward assessment that has to be done.

I think its great that the staff recognized a flaw in their punt coverage, but lets break this down piece by piece:

1. It wasnt 4th and 5 or something, it was 4th and 15...

2. The LOS was the 16.

3. The Washington offense hadn't done anything at that point

4. The Ball was being thrown from a Safety to a Cornerback

5. It was the first quarter and they only had a one score lead

Lets say it completes. He likely gets tackled almost immediately. So they get a first down right around the 35... this is a typical drive start location. It still has a low probability to generate any points

If it doesn't work, the Ex-skins get the ball in the Red zone. This is almost certainly giving them 3 points with a high probability of a tying td

You would NEVER want a coach to risk a 4th-1 at their own 16 in the 1st quarter with a 1 score lead, so you dont risk this

I get it was a read/audible.. but you save that attempt till you are out of tge red zone and your d has a fighting chance if you dont make it

As with all strategy, there are dynamic components.. if we are down late or up big such gambles become more reasonable

Later in the game, the strategy was really good... but this was poor for a variety of reasons...

Even had it succeeded, it still would have been a bad bet. It was like the early 4th down attempt behind our own 40 in the indy game... a kneejerk gamble with low reward and high risk.

Part of it could be not adjusting success ratios for the defensive downturn in the league of the past couple years. Its not quite as slanted in the offenses favor so too aggressive isnt the boon as it used to be...

Look at the Bengals and their coach as a good example...

They should have held this off until the down and distance was shorter, and the los was ten or more yards further from the end zone.
It wasnt like that was going to be the only punt that game...

The way the Eagles convert on the tush push, I could see going for it on 4th and 1 from the 16 in the 1st.

With the way modern NFL pass offenses move the ball, field position is overrated and possession is underrated.

 

[madinsomniac]

The way the Eagles convert on the tush push, I could see going for it on 4th and 1 from the 16 in the 1st.

With the way modern NFL pass offenses move the ball, field position is overrated and possession is underrated.

So your post is absolute proof that people dont update strategic thinking on an annual basis.

The "Tush Push" when it first came out, was excessively effective.
Typical QB sneaks on 3rd or 4th and 1 often hover around an 80% success rate. The first year of the tush push it was around the mid 90's% effective.. after a year it was down into the mid 80's.. and now, with new rules about it in effect, its basically the same as a regular qb sneak.. defenses adapted.

Going for it on 4th and 1 isnt tge advantage it was even 5 years ago.. its still good to be aggressive there, but not always aggressive...
Cinci has cost itself games this year with overly liberal use of the strategy

 

[SteveA]

I 100% disagree with the fake punt call. Mostly because we were on our 15. It’s one thing to try that on our 35-45 yard line. On our 15 is totally different.

Bro Tom and faked out every ************ I went to leave for commercial break because we’re on our own 15.

they worked on this all week and we’re gonna use it. it was a preplanned play…

Nobody thought we were gonna fake punt there

nobody

That’s why they call it a fake

 

[Steeltime]

Lets say it completes. He likely gets tackled almost immediately. So they get a first down right around the 35... this is a typical drive start location. It still has a low probability to generate any points

Pierre had one guy remotely close to him when the ball arrived. He breaks one tackle - ONE - he is at midfield with the other gunner trying desperately to catch up.

You would NEVER want a coach to risk a 4th-1 at their own 16 in the 1st quarter with a 1 score lead, so you dont risk this

Going for it early on makes more sense since it gives the Steelers a LOT more time to take into account the results of the fake, good or bad. Risking going for it with a 7-point lead late in the 4th quarter means the team gets the ball back maybe once more, maybe not again.

They should have held this off until the down and distance was shorter, and the los was ten or more yards further from the end zone.
It wasnt like that was going to be the only punt that game...

The punt team practiced taking advantage of Washington's failure to be even remotely close to the gunner and to take advantage when the opportunity presents itself. Presuming that the punt coverage is the same later on or with different field position is "riskier" than exploiting the weakness as soon as it arises since now not only do you have the same variables you discussed (big difference in field position, safety throwing to a CB, etc.), but add in "waiting to see if this huge advantage is available again, but only in the perfect field position and only on 4th and 5 or 6."

 

[Steeltime]

Like I said, I still lean towards conservative, old fashioned smash mouth football at the end of the day.

The Steelers played as if they were facing a team with a top-ranked offense, top-ranked scoring offense, needed to put up at least 28 points, and could not just copy-and-paste the "Pickett Special," i.e., a last-second field goal to eke out another 13-10 win.

 

[Fiji Mariner]

One can only hope that the “spirit of Los Vagas” has fallen on his shoulders and slipped into his ear. Now the whispering will be constant and the pudding shall taste good.

I think there has been a shift in ownership, and coaching from top to bottom. I think Kahn and Wield have a bigger hand in hiring. I also think Coach Tomlin was given some heavy talk at the end of last season’s PO blow-out.

Fast Forward to todays translation————————

Coach Tom Lin is showing change, regardless of how it was / is being presented. Todays call, showed desperation in changing season(s) perceived out comes. It is working to date and I commend him for it.

The Journey has been enjoyable, exciting, and making me want to be entertained by more. My expectations are still two PO wins, but am accepting a greater portion of HOPE along the way.


Salute the nation

He called himself “a degenerate” so I think he’s finally embracing the gambler mentality

For years he’s been the complacent fat lazy well fed cat resting in his nice sunny perch without a care in the world

I’m liking “degenerate Mike”

This guy may actually know how to exit the Groundhog Day cycle,

 

[Fiji Mariner]

KEEP in mind that’s the Zebras are trained and controlled by the NFL…..aka the “Rog”.


Salute the nation

Definitely a directive to keep games close and eyes glued to the advertising machine until the final
Commercials have aired

All about that $$$$$$$

Blowouts are bad for the bottom line

Someone’s gotta pay Rog’s astronomical fee

 

[Sarge]

I think in wet conditions Warren has issues with ball security. In the red zone you are arguably in a higher traffic area.

Not so sure with those combined factors that Warren should be used there.

That is the second time within the game I would have used someone different on a given play.

Minimize your players greatest weaknesses by not putting them in positions to fail.

All I know is this. With Warren in the line up, the Steelers average 159 yards per game rushing. With Warren in the lineup, the Steelers are 7-0. Without him, they are 0-2. He’s an asset.

 

[slashsteel]

All I know is this. With Warren in the line up, the Steelers average 159 yards per game rushing. With Warren in the lineup, the Steelers are 7-0. Without him, they are 0-2. He’s an asset.

Sure and I wasn’t advocating removing him entirely. Just in certain situations. Like on a rainy day in a crowded red zone situation…

 

[steelhurt]

In my humble opinion I simply did not like the fake punt. Even if it had been executed I still don’t like it at our 15. That could have and almost cost us the game and had we lost man that would have been a lot bigger issue today.
Your team is on the road against a hot team and you’re taking a huge risk of allowing momentum to swing quickly back to the other team.
I said earlier this year I would praise Tomlin and also criticize him when deserved.
I’m criticizing him here for that call which could have cost us the game. Dumb move Tomlin!

 

[steelcan58]

He called himself “a degenerate” so I think he’s finally embracing the gambler mentality

For years he’s been the complacent fat lazy well fed cat resting in his nice sunny perch without a care in the world

I’m liking “degenerate Mike”

This guy may actually know how to exit the Groundhog Day cycle,

Another thought I've had about Tomlin is comparing his trajectory to Andy Reid. Reid was a successful coach in Philly. Always competitive but for whatever reason couldn't quite get the Eagles over the top. Then he moves to KC tweaks his game slightly and arguably is the Cadillac of coaches. Yes he's had Mahomes but the Chiefs have transitioned from a team that just out scored you to a team that eventually will beat you in a street fight. I'm betting Philly fans even with their recent success would love to have Andy back.

Is it possible that Tomlin has gone through his growing pains, although it's taken quite a while. I still put a lot of that on Colbert taking control of the team after Cowher left. At any rate players do love playing for Tomlin. I can definitely see the change in team unity and the old Steelers mentality has come back the last couple of years. I know many here, including myself have wished him gone at various points. Many still do. I'm at the point where I realize he's not going anywhere. I'm okay with it. I think he finally has hired a decent OC in Arthur Smith. Danny Smith has suddenly become a star special teams coach mostly because the Steelers team mentality is back. Maybe Tomlin turns out to be our Andy Reid. Fingers crossed

 

[jitter77]

To me that is a play you scout and keep in your back pocket when needed. Wash wasn't doing anything on offense and we gave them a free TD. It is also on tape for other teams now so it won't be a surprise. That is a play that could have come in handy against the Ravens or even the playoffs, but now we wasted it

 

[Drink IRON City]

Another thought I've had about Tomlin is comparing his trajectory to Andy Reid. Reid was a successful coach in Philly. Always competitive but for whatever reason couldn't quite get the Eagles over the top. Then he moves to KC tweaks his game slightly and arguably is the Cadillac of coaches. Yes he's had Mahomes but the Chiefs have transitioned from a team that just out scored you to a team that eventually will beat you in a street fight. I'm betting Philly fans even with their recent success would love to have Andy back.

Is it possible that Tomlin has gone through his growing pains, although it's taken quite a while. I still put a lot of that on Colbert taking control of the team after Cowher left. At any rate players do love playing for Tomlin. I can definitely see the change in team unity and the old Steelers mentality has come back the last couple of years. I know many here, including myself have wished him gone at various points. Many still do. I'm at the point where I realize he's not going anywhere. I'm okay with it. I think he finally has hired a decent OC in Arthur Smith. Danny Smith has suddenly become a star special teams coach mostly because the Steelers team mentality is back. Maybe Tomlin turns out to be our Andy Reid. Fingers crossed

Anything,…… I repeat that…… ANYTHING is possible in America’

I agree with most of what you are saying, SIR.

Andy Reid didn’t invent the wheel, but what he did do was figure out how to hire and keep TOP assistant coaches. I feel that is the key in any franchise success.

Hopefully Coach Tomlin will continue to follow suit in that regards. A.Smith is a start. Bubbles may of had the trickle down “TALK” about making things happen.

Regardless of who and what, that STEELERS Way is infectious and hopefully here to stay.


Salute the nation

 

[Gildong Sack]

The margin of victory is small in most NFL games. When you see what should be an easy conversion opportunity, you need to seize upon it. That’s exactly what that play was. What you’re arguing is that the Steelers should have given possession back to Washington knowing they could, in all likelihood, keep possession.

But they didn't keep possession..... and Washington got 7 quickly. If their receiver doesn't drop the easy catch in the back of the end zone no one here is going against what I'm saying today. It would be unanimous or almost unanimous that it was not a smart call.

It was not a smart call regardless of the game outcome. It was not bold, it was an ill thought out emotional reaction.

 

[Troglodyte]

But they didn't keep possession..... and Washington got 7 quickly. If their receiver doesn't drop the easy catch in the back of the end zone no one here is going against what I'm saying today. It would be unanimous or almost unanimous that it was not a smart call.

It was not a smart call regardless of the game outcome. It was not bold, it was an ill thought out emotional reaction.

I defended it immediately after it happened so the outcome is not why people are going against what you say. Bill Cowher and called smart at half time and Ray Fitipaldo called it a perfect call in today’s PPG. Saying it was a mistake because a professional athlete dropped a pass most pedestrians would have caught is arguing that decisions should be based on fearing the worst case scenario no matter how improbable.

 

[Gildong Sack]

I defended it immediately after it happened so the outcome is not why people are going against what you say. Bill Cowher and called smart at half time and Ray Fitipaldo called it a perfect call in today’s PPG. Saying it was a mistake because a professional athlete dropped a pass most pedestrians would have caught is arguing that decisions should be based on fearing the worst case scenario no matter how improbable.

I hear you. Fittapaldo would be singing a different tune if they had lost the game. And the irony of Cowher who actually was involved in a smart special teams play after halftime of Super Bowl 30 while trailing. An onside kick that was recovered by the Steelers and swung the whole momentum of that game almost bringing home Lombardi 5.

Truth is when you watch the film of that game Bobby April(special teams coach) runs up to Cowher and suggests it. Cowher just looks at the ground thinks for a second and says "do it" or something like that. Great moment.

 

[slashsteel]

Its fine to be aggressive, but again there is a risk/reward assessment that has to be done.

I think its great that the staff recognized a flaw in their punt coverage, but lets break this down piece by piece:

1. It wasnt 4th and 5 or something, it was 4th and 15...

2. The LOS was the 16.

3. The Washington offense hadn't done anything at that point

4. The Ball was being thrown from a Safety to a Cornerback

5. It was the first quarter and they only had a one score lead

Lets say it completes. He likely gets tackled almost immediately. So they get a first down right around the 35... this is a typical drive start location. It still has a low probability to generate any points

If it doesn't work, the Ex-skins get the ball in the Red zone. This is almost certainly giving them 3 points with a high probability of a tying td

You would NEVER want a coach to risk a 4th-1 at their own 16 in the 1st quarter with a 1 score lead, so you dont risk this

I get it was a read/audible.. but you save that attempt till you are out of tge red zone and your d has a fighting chance if you dont make it

As with all strategy, there are dynamic components.. if we are down late or up big such gambles become more reasonable

Later in the game, the strategy was really good... but this was poor for a variety of reasons...

Even had it succeeded, it still would have been a bad bet. It was like the early 4th down attempt behind our own 40 in the indy game... a kneejerk gamble with low reward and high risk.

Part of it could be not adjusting success ratios for the defensive downturn in the league of the past couple years. Its not quite as slanted in the offenses favor so too aggressive isnt the boon as it used to be...

Look at the Bengals and their coach as a good example...

They should have held this off until the down and distance was shorter, and the los was ten or more yards further from the end zone.
It wasnt like that was going to be the only punt that game...

So I am hearing they practiced this all week. Which makes me still not care for it maybe even more so. If you practiced it there should have been scenarios applied of what circumstances do they trot that bad boy out. Just for me yeah not smart football.