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Ferguson?

oneforthebus said:
What difference does it make what started the initial encounter? Are you suggesting Brown was justified in attacking Wilson because he asked him to move out of the street? This is just like the people who say Trayvon Martin was killed for walking home with Skittles. Whatever happened in this case, I will guarantee you that Brown was not "shot for jaywalking". That simply makes no logical sense.

Again, if Wilson's story is accurate, Brown slammed the car door on him, punched him, and was hitting him and grabbing for his gun. He got shot in the car and ran off, but then turned around. We KNOW he turned around because most of the bullets entered the front of his body. The only thing that is in dispute is whether he had his hands up, and whether or not he was advancing toward the officer. If he was advancing toward the officer while the officer yelled STOP!, after just having violently assaulted him, the officer is not only justified, he had NO CHOICE. He could not risk a violent, out of control, irrational 300 pound man overpowering him and getting his gun.
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Okay let me break it down this way:

If Wilson shoots Brown during the initial confrontation when Brown was trying to get Wilson's weapon while battering him I have no heartburn with the shoot. Its clean no questions.

In the NY Times article that your excerpt is badly copied from the witness states that Brown stumbled not charged towards Officer Wilson. This is key because it paints a picture of a surrendering suspect that was already wounded, probably in shock and no longer a threat to the officer at 25 feet away. It means that Wilson shot Brown either in an act of deliberate rage or gross incompetence. If its the first one then Wilson has committed 2nd degree murder. If its the second then Wilson is guilty of negligent homicide.

The difference between this and the Zimmerman/Martin shooting is that the witnesses saw Tray on Martin beating George Zimmerman and pounding his head intonthebgriund when Zimmerman shot him. They didn't see Trayvon Martin get off Zimmerman walk 39 feet away and then Zimmerman shoot a person that was no longer a threat. We believed the witnesses in that case why can't we believe the witnesses in the Ferguson case?
 
In the NY Times article that your excerpt is badly copied from the witness states that Brown stumbled not charged towards Officer Wilson. This is key because it paints a picture of a surrendering suspect that was already wounded, probably in shock and no longer a threat to the officer at 25 feet away. It means that Wilson shot Brown either in an act of deliberate rage or gross incompetence. If its the first one then Wilson has committed 2nd degree murder. If its the second then Wilson is guilty of negligent homicide.
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So, a police officer is violently attacked, has to fire his weapon twice at a suspect, repeatedly tells the suspect to stop and he advances towards him, and he's still not justified in shooting? Sorry, I will disagree with you all day long on that.

This is a split second situation...25 feet is really not a great distance. Is he stumbling? Walking? Running? Exactly how physically disabled is he? Enough that he can't jump on me? The cop is supposed to be able to surmise all that in a matter of a couple of seconds?

It doesn't work that way, sorry. This isn't the movies. You've been violently attacked. You tell him to stop. If he comes toward you, you shoot. I have ZERO problem with that.

In fact I'll go a step farther and say, if you punch a police officer in the face while he's sitting in his car, I don't care if he shoots you in the back while you are running away. You are a dangerous violent thug who has to be stopped by whatever means necessary.In some cases it's perfectly legal to shoot a fleeing violent felon.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_e9b5412f-2283-512e-8636-0d2bbe958c5c.html
 
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Actually we do have proof that that stuff happened there are numerous eyewitnesses that saw what happened.
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Hmm, interesting that none of the eyewitnesses who have come forward publicly saw Brown attack the officer, yet the officer apparently has injuries and was taken to the hospital from the scene.

There is also this...an unwitting witness right after the fact who says Brown started running toward the police...wonder why this is not mentioned more often in most mainstream media accounts.

http://dailycaller.com/2014/08/17/unwitting-witness-pokes-holes-in-michael-brown-shooting-story/
 
I said this earlier in the thread. I have had my orbital bone shattered. It ******* HURTS. You can't see anything for a while...your ears are ringing, you wonder if you have lost an eye. So with that injury, does anyone think that Officer Wilson could be an accurate shot?
 
oneforthebus said:
This is a split second situation...25 feet is really not a great distance. ]
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I was at the range just last night. 25 feet is very close. Especially with a pissed off giant coming at you after he knocked you woozy.

Side note: They have zombie targets now. Pretty fun to unload a whole magazine on them.
 
all i know about this is a white cop shot a black angel and should be fried while his family is given their 40 acres and a mule.
 
Superman said:
all i know about this is a white cop shot a black angel and should be fried while his family is given their 40 acres and a mule.
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Close...All the other black angels deserve their land and mules because of this too. Or else they'll riot some more. It's only just and fair.
 
IndySteel said:
Close...All the other black angels deserve their land and mules because of this too. Or else they'll riot some more. It's only just and fair.
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And this is really it, right here. You're all about defending your "race" and not dealing with the facts. And in this case, facts are sorely lacking, yet you race people are all drawing conclusions.

The race angle is the least important thing here. The important questions pertain to whether or not procedure was followed, whether or not the threat was legitimate, and whether or not a proper investigation is being conducted. All this race **** you guys keep throwing out is just noise.
 
oneforthebus said:
So, a police officer is violently attacked, has to fire his weapon twice at a suspect, repeatedly tells the suspect to stop and he advances towards him, and he's still not justified in shooting? Sorry, I will disagree with you all day long on that.

This is a split second situation...25 feet is really not a great distance. Is he stumbling? Walking? Running? Exactly how physically disabled is he? Enough that he can't jump on me? The cop is supposed to be able to surmise all that in a matter of a couple of seconds?

It doesn't work that way, sorry. This isn't the movies. You've been violently attacked. You tell him to stop. If he comes toward you, you shoot. I have ZERO problem with that.

In fact I'll go a step farther and say, if you punch a police officer in the face while he's sitting in his car, I don't care if he shoots you in the back while you are running away. You are a dangerous violent thug who has to be stopped by whatever means necessary.In some cases it's perfectly legal to shoot a fleeing violent felon.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_e9b5412f-2283-512e-8636-0d2bbe958c5c.html
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Once again Brown was no longer punching officer Wilson. He was far enough away that he could not cover the ground in one or two steps. He was not even a fleeing felon anymore at that point he had stopped at the officers command and the witnesses say he sort of stumbled toward officer Wilson not charged. The witnesses also say that Brown appeared to be surrendering, it is unlawful for a police officer to shoot a surrendering suspect. I know the difference between the movies and real life I am a combat veteran, I know more about the impact of hot high velocity steel on the human body than you can even imagine.
 
Buster said:
His thug brethren do not constitute "proof" to me.
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Okay.

I can agree with that.

What about the people that where there that were just going about their daily lives? There was one witness that was from out of state who had no possible way of knowing Mike Brown. Was he a thug too?

Don't get roped into the myth of LEO infallibility, cops are human, they get lazy, they make mistakes, and some of them give into the evil impulses in human nature. But because they are public officials that we give great power and deadly weapons to we must hold them to a higher standard of accountability.
 
Steel Not A Player said:
And this is really it, right here. You're all about defending your "race" and not dealing with the facts. And in this case, facts are sorely lacking, yet you race people are all drawing conclusions.

The race angle is the least important thing here. The important questions pertain to whether or not procedure was followed, whether or not the threat was legitimate, and whether or not a proper investigation is being conducted. All this race **** you guys keep throwing out is just noise.
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Nice try, but you're wrong. I was playing around with the "Let's Riot!" mentality. I've said before, if he had been white I'd still say he deserved to get filled full of lead. Especially hollow points that mushroom and rattle around.
 
DBS1970 said:
Once again Brown was no longer punching officer Wilson. He was far enough away that he could not cover the ground in one or two steps. He was not even a fleeing felon anymore at that point he had stopped at the officers command and the witnesses say he sort of stumbled toward officer Wilson not charged. The witnesses also say that Brown appeared to be surrendering, it is unlawful for a police officer to shoot a surrendering suspect. I know the difference between the movies and real life I am a combat veteran, I know more about the impact of hot high velocity steel on the human body than you can even imagine.
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Again, witness accounts have been all over the place. Depending on their vantage points it may have looked entirely different from how it looked to him. Can people say with certainty from any distance whether someone is stumbling, or lowering their head to charge? To think that the people who live in that neighborhood can't be biased or possibly influenced by the media coverage is very naive. You're simply accepting the accounts that agree with your narrative and rejecting any that don't. We haven't even heard what Officer Wilson has to say.

I would think as a combat veteran you would give a public servant, a 6 year veteran of the force who risks his life every day, and who has never been investigated or accused of wrongdoing before, at least the benefit of the doubt.
 
DBS1970 said:
Okay.

I can agree with that.

What about the people that where there that were just going about their daily lives? There was one witness that was from out of state who had no possible way of knowing Mike Brown. Was he a thug too?

Don't get roped into the myth of LEO infallibility, cops are human, they get lazy, they make mistakes, and some of them give into the evil impulses in human nature. But because they are public officials that we give great power and deadly weapons to we must hold them to a higher standard of accountability.
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What about the guy who was describing to his friend on the cell phone video how the police officer told him to stop but he ran toward him and kept on coming? Why do you negate that version? That is someone who was describing what he saw seconds ago, had seen no media coverage, had not been influenced in any way. Would seem his account is most credible. But you ignore that piece of information.
 
oneforthebus said:
What about the guy who was describing to his friend on the cell phone video how the police officer told him to stop but he ran toward him and kept on coming? Why do you negate that version? That is someone who was describing what he saw seconds ago, had seen no media coverage, had not been influenced in any way. Would seem his account is most credible. But you ignore that piece of information.
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Because that would blow holes in his theory that ALL cops are crooked.
 
He was far enough away that he could not cover the ground in one or two steps.
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This is another thing that amazes me from a combat veteran like yourself. Someone who has already violently attacked you is advancing toward you, and you have to wait until they are only one or two steps away before shooting? I highly doubt that's how they trained you in whatever branch of the armed forces you were serving in.
 
oneforthebus said:
This is another thing that amazes me from a combat veteran like yourself. Someone who has already violently attacked you is advancing toward you, and you have to wait until they are only one or two steps away before shooting? I highly doubt that's how they trained you in whatever branch of the armed forces you were serving in.
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At that point he has other non lethal options. OC spray, Taser, ASP Baton. Soldiers don't have that kind of equipment and there is a huge difference in law enforcement where the suspect has a righto due process of law and war.
 
IndySteel said:
Close...All the other black angels deserve their land and mules because of this too. Or else they'll riot some more. It's only just and fair.
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Da fuq you say. That 40 acres and a mule BS means you have to work for your food. Voting Democrat to get free **** is a much better plan. Until the food stamp system breaks down.
 
DBS1970 said:
At that point he has other non lethal options. OC spray, Taser, ASP Baton. Soldiers don't have that kind of equipment and there is a huge difference in law enforcement where the suspect has a righto due process of law and war.
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How many punches in the face must he endure before he can draw his weapon against a man who weighs 100 lbs more? Methinks no one here has enough info in this case to make any kind of reasonable conclusion. This will likely end up like the Trayvon case where everyone jumped to a retarded conclusion.
 
DBS1970 said:
At that point he has other non lethal options. OC spray, Taser, ASP Baton. Soldiers don't have that kind of equipment and there is a huge difference in law enforcement where the suspect has a righto due process of law and war.
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Again, there is no time to consider those options. You have been assaulted. You already had to draw your weapon and fire. He's already wounded, and it didn't stop him. Your weapon is in your hand. You point it at the guy and shout at him to stop, several times. You are seriously telling me you're going to reholster your gun and pull out your baton? With the guy 20-25 feet away from you and moving forward? Come on, you must know how ludicrous that sounds.
 
oneforthebus said:
Again, there is no time to consider those options. You have been assaulted. You already had to draw your weapon and fire. He's already wounded, and it didn't stop him. Your weapon is in your hand. You point it at the guy and shout at him to stop, several times. You are seriously telling me you're going to reholster your gun and pull out your baton? With the guy 20-25 feet away from you and moving forward? Come on, you must know how ludicrous that sounds.
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The main point I was making there was that their is a difference between war and law enforcement.

I am done arguing this and will say this one last time: Police officers may not take summary action and shoot surrendering suspects. We all have God given rights to due process even criminals. WE ALL NEED TO BE CONCERNED WITH THE INCREASINGLY MILLITANT STANCE AND "US AGAINST THEM" ATTITUDE MANY LEOS AND POLICE AGENCIES ARE TAKING. THEY WILL EVENTUALLY VIOLATE YOUR RIGHTS TOO.
 
DBS1970 said:
Don't get roped into the myth of LEO infallibility, cops are human, they get lazy, they make mistakes, and some of them give into the evil impulses in human nature.
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The three choices you provide are MASSIVELY different in terms of criminal consequence. Homicide is defined as the killing of one human being by another. Brown's shooting obviously qualifies.

Murder is homicide with malice. Malice is not established by laziness or negligence. Negligent conduct rising to criminal misdoing is likely to constitute manslaughter. This is termed the "misdemeanor manslaughter" rule, the kin to the better-known "felony-murder" rule.

If the officer believed that Brown constituted a threat, and offers evidence to support that defense, then he did not commit a crime. The fact that the officer was mistaken about the threat is not enough; proving manslaughter requires that the officer knew or had reason to know that Brown did not present a threat, and that his claim that he had reasonable fear for his safety is not legitimate.

I can guarantee you that the officer will offer witness testimony, expert testimony, and physical evidence supporting his defense. The prosecution will need to gather evidence that is compelling. Proving the case beyond reasonable doubt, with differing witness testimony and conflicting expert testimony, is a tough hill to climb.

I believe that absent the political firestorm for this shooting, the prosecutor would likely decline prosecution. It is not because prosecutors hate black people, or love the police, or any such bullshit. It is because trials that take up a courtroom for 3 weeks, with dubious chances of conviction, are not a good use of the prosecutor's resources or the people's courthouse.
 
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