while picking apart an ancient book, could you provide us with an update on your Best Seller and when you'll be finished with it?
For those who'd lump all religions together
- Thread starter Tim Steelersfan
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while picking apart an ancient book, could you provide us with an update on your Best Seller and when you'll be finished with it?
What is your point? No Christian would deny that God created muslims. He also created all Jews, atheists, Hindus, etc. He has created all, so again, what point are you trying to make?
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Every religion worships the same God, if there is one. How they individually worship that same God, may not please him,
but that is for him to decide.
but that is for him to decide.
your book. release date. when?
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The problem is Christians and Muslims don't just worship a "God". They also worship a Messiah. A real person in history that wrote things down and preached and talked to the people.
The problem happens (like any of the old school games we played) is when a "story" from one person (the so-called "Messiah") is re-told and re-told and re-copied and re-copied, humans historically have edited it to reflect the trials and tribulations of their time. Once the Messiah is gone, only humans (with all their failings) are left to "interpret" what the Messiah meant or said.
Maybe Muhammad was a good person. None of us will really EVER know because none of us met him in context with his time. Obviously he was respected by a vast legion of followers that elevated his deeds into Messiah status. To his followers his successes and teachings hit home to such an extent at the time that they (and they alone) believed God was at work (Muhammad telling everyone this also helped).
But Jesus is the SAME THING. None of us exactly know what Jesus was like. We don't know exactly how "good" a person he was or what he really sounded like when he spoke. The gospels are interpretations of his teaching by HUMANS that felt so strongly about what he said at the time and so strongly is their belief he actually rose from the dead and performed miracles and represented salvation that they elevated him to Messiah status. The Gospels did this. And again, Jesus certainly played the part by telling everyone he was the Son of God too. If you don't believe in that to start with you have to question his character to some extent because that's a pretty big lie. After that lie, everything else you have to take with a grain of salt in my opinion.
Every Christian here doesn't believe Muhammad actually spoke to God.
Every Muslim doesn't believe Jesus is the Son of God or was conceived by God or Spoke for God.
It is a dichotomy that will never, ever be resolved unless logic overrides the silly idea that EITHER could happen or be true. It is the only true resolution to Christian vs. Muslim co-existence in a true sense to their teachings.
The problem happens (like any of the old school games we played) is when a "story" from one person (the so-called "Messiah") is re-told and re-told and re-copied and re-copied, humans historically have edited it to reflect the trials and tribulations of their time. Once the Messiah is gone, only humans (with all their failings) are left to "interpret" what the Messiah meant or said.
Maybe Muhammad was a good person. None of us will really EVER know because none of us met him in context with his time. Obviously he was respected by a vast legion of followers that elevated his deeds into Messiah status. To his followers his successes and teachings hit home to such an extent at the time that they (and they alone) believed God was at work (Muhammad telling everyone this also helped).
But Jesus is the SAME THING. None of us exactly know what Jesus was like. We don't know exactly how "good" a person he was or what he really sounded like when he spoke. The gospels are interpretations of his teaching by HUMANS that felt so strongly about what he said at the time and so strongly is their belief he actually rose from the dead and performed miracles and represented salvation that they elevated him to Messiah status. The Gospels did this. And again, Jesus certainly played the part by telling everyone he was the Son of God too. If you don't believe in that to start with you have to question his character to some extent because that's a pretty big lie. After that lie, everything else you have to take with a grain of salt in my opinion.
Every Christian here doesn't believe Muhammad actually spoke to God.
Every Muslim doesn't believe Jesus is the Son of God or was conceived by God or Spoke for God.
It is a dichotomy that will never, ever be resolved unless logic overrides the silly idea that EITHER could happen or be true. It is the only true resolution to Christian vs. Muslim co-existence in a true sense to their teachings.
I always thought it was funny that a lot of atheists know so much about holy book of a God and His Son that they don't believe in anyway and can't resist taking shots at Christians.
The Muzzies will kill you for saying that BTW.
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Many Christians through history would have killed me for saying it too.
I still think the chicken vs. the egg debate holds somewhat true for Islam. They were barbarians before Muhammad and they are barbarians after. Did Islam make them barbaric? Or is their religion just a reflection of their pre-existing barbarism that they have not evolved past?
Christianity LEFT the Middle East, evolved, went through a renaissance in the 1500's and was exported through colonialism from Europe through the Americas and Far East.
Islam has never left the Middle East/North Africa (except for the Moors in Spain). It is only now spreading into Europe and into the Far East and into the Americas. Islam (like all religions) is mostly based on what works WHERE IT IS AT. The barbarity of the Middle East has always driven the voice of Islam. That holds true today.
Even Judaism, which predates Islam by a lot, left the Middle East and was re-established mostly by civilized (by our standards) Europeans that re-colonized Israel and maintain some "western" ideology.
Islam has never evolved. It is run and controlled by people that still live a barbaric lifestyle and can't quite escape their barbaric roots. Not yet. Not this generation. Maybe not for many generations.
As much as I would like to wipe all religion off the face of the planet, that's not going to happen. As much as my doubt of Christianity and Islam and my doubt Jesus and Muhammad were nothing more than normal men, both religions are entrenched in the world for centuries to come. I hope science might sway the balance but in uncivilized places religion is hard to displace even with science.
The argument over who "owns" heaven and salvation is the driving divide between both religions. Christianity claims tolerance, but it looks at all non-believers as below themselves because the Bible clearly proclaims they do not have access to forgiveness and life after death. I think some Christians "acceptance" of my atheism as somewhat condescending to tell you the truth. They say to my face.... I respect you opinion, but their faith expects me to die forever while they live forever. Some way to treat me as an "equal".
I still think the chicken vs. the egg debate holds somewhat true for Islam. They were barbarians before Muhammad and they are barbarians after. Did Islam make them barbaric? Or is their religion just a reflection of their pre-existing barbarism that they have not evolved past?
Christianity LEFT the Middle East, evolved, went through a renaissance in the 1500's and was exported through colonialism from Europe through the Americas and Far East.
Islam has never left the Middle East/North Africa (except for the Moors in Spain). It is only now spreading into Europe and into the Far East and into the Americas. Islam (like all religions) is mostly based on what works WHERE IT IS AT. The barbarity of the Middle East has always driven the voice of Islam. That holds true today.
Even Judaism, which predates Islam by a lot, left the Middle East and was re-established mostly by civilized (by our standards) Europeans that re-colonized Israel and maintain some "western" ideology.
Islam has never evolved. It is run and controlled by people that still live a barbaric lifestyle and can't quite escape their barbaric roots. Not yet. Not this generation. Maybe not for many generations.
As much as I would like to wipe all religion off the face of the planet, that's not going to happen. As much as my doubt of Christianity and Islam and my doubt Jesus and Muhammad were nothing more than normal men, both religions are entrenched in the world for centuries to come. I hope science might sway the balance but in uncivilized places religion is hard to displace even with science.
The argument over who "owns" heaven and salvation is the driving divide between both religions. Christianity claims tolerance, but it looks at all non-believers as below themselves because the Bible clearly proclaims they do not have access to forgiveness and life after death. I think some Christians "acceptance" of my atheism as somewhat condescending to tell you the truth. They say to my face.... I respect you opinion, but their faith expects me to die forever while they live forever. Some way to treat me as an "equal".
On the contrary, much is known about this Muhammed dude, through Islamic texts. It is call the Hadith. He was not a good person. He was a warlord, a polygamist, a pedophile, a murderer, and a slave owner. He dispatched his enemies by beheading them. Sound familiar?
All you have to do is to see the deeds of the Hadiith followers today......ISIS, AQ, Boko Haram, and Al Shababb come immediately to mind.
This information is not difficult to find.
Ron, even some notable liberal athiests, like Bill Maher and Sam Harris, are coming around to the truth, and have given up this dumbass moral relativism argument.
Del has no soul. Probably never owned a James Brown CD.I will pray for del's soul but only because it will bug the hell out of him.
From one of my favorite movies..........." Free will, it is a *****. "
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The think you have to remember, is maybe Muhammad was actually an IMPROVEMENT over the barbarity for his time. I agree, when you read the Quran and what Muhammad did, you think "this is crazy, barbaric ****", but at the time it was looked at as progress. Strict rules that made sense to them in their time, both socially and politically.
This all goes back to whether the Gospels and the Quran (and other Muhammad writings) should be taken strictly literally or should they evolve in their interpretations to reflect our times and ethics. Hell, the same debate holds true even for a document 220 years old like our Constitution. Imagine arguing over a document 2000 years old or 1500 years old.
It's a no win situation.
P.S. And Ron, go right ahead and pray for my soul. I'm actually not against the belief in a God. I don't know for a fact what happens after death (I strongly suspect nothing happens). There could definitely be something greater than anything my little brain can imagine and existed before the Big Bang and before our universe (or many other universes). Something that "started or triggered it all".
But I strongly don't believe Jesus or Muhammad were anything more than men. I don't believe in the Old Testament fables and parables that people spoke to God or God tangibly was involved in floods, people's lives, rained down fury and wrath, made plagues or any stuff like that.
But do I have all the answers? Nope. Never said I did. Never will.
There you go trying to make that faulty comparison again, just like a lemming. The religions and their teachings are not the same. See the original post.
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Sometimes you just have to resort to referring to this "Children's Book" for those that just refuse to see the Quran for what it is...
All well and good.
However, it has no place in the 21st century, and needs to be LOUDLY criticized, when we see those attempting to implement it. But what instead happens, we have voices on the left pointing their finger back at the critic, saying 'But you are no better!". The truth is, those that criticize Islam ARE better.
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And that all comes from whether you want to interpret what Muhammad did and said should be taken strictly literally or evolve to the times/cultures/normalcies of the era.
Christians argue about this all the time too. And our country argues about it all the time about the Constitution.
There are numerous tenets and rituals and "rules" the old and new testament espouse people to do, but many Christians (and churches) don't require or enforce. Culturally we have accepted a litany of "bending the rules" of Christianity vs. what is written in the Gospels. As a way to normalize life in the 21st century and co-exist with other people and the technology of our time. Many, many Christians think the "bending of the rules" has gone too far and that's from people living in generations of "civilized" society.
I still think the Middle East is only one or two generations away from barbarism and tribalism that was thrust prematurely into the 21st century by their oil wealth and importance. And Islam along with it.
Believe me, I'm not defending Islam. I think it was born in barbaric times, is political in nature and has/will have a hard time adapting to western culture and modernization. But if we don't try to understand it a bit, it's going to continue to bite us. It is the fastest growing religion in the world and there has to be a REASON people are interested and convert. It's not just about the violence of it. Why do religions spread? Why do they catch hold of people? Why are people willing to die for religion?
In my opinion, you have to attack all the aspects of idolatry and worship and faith to the point of death. It's ALL wrong. Religious zealotry is the 21st century Naziism, Fascism, Communism, Nationalism, Socialism, Capitalism all rolled into one great threat against society. Using Christianity to fight Islam is a no-win proposition.
Fighting against religion in general? Fighting against the craziness of believing in something THAT STRONGLY? That's the only way to defuse the religious issues of the world. Everyone has to get off their religious soap boxes.
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This is not a philosophical issue for me. It is a public safety issue. I treat Islam in the same way that I would treat the rise of the Nazi's, and the parallels are clear..
Carry on with your quest to abolish religion. Good luck with it.
Useful idiot................. read the comments......Will restore your faith in common sense.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/post...-when-i-met-its-fighters-i-couldnt-hate-them/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/post...-when-i-met-its-fighters-i-couldnt-hate-them/
What beliefs do you hold dear? Any? How dearly do you hold them? Because to follow your argument to its logical conclusion NOTHING is important enough to die for.
The relationship is crystal clear. The Islamic jihad movement was completely radicalized and adopted it's fascistic demeanor from their good Christian teachers.....in the Third Reich.
And please don't make me waste time with the "Nazis weren't Christian" argument. The last time I discussed that here with one of your fellow clueless CONservatives; steeltime ran off with a bright red *** and tears in his eyes.
Here you go:
The Mufti of Jerusalem Amin Al Husseini inspects his Muslim Nazi troops in 1943. After the war, he will preside over the Arab League and the World Islamic Congress
ALL religion is f***** up, just like the poster you were addressing was trying to make you see.
How do you do that with those blinded by nonsense though,..you know just like the Muslims?
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so you're comparing the muzzies to nazis.
there's hope for you yet. maybe.
there's hope for you yet. maybe.
Nah, don't kid yourself.
Definitely an unintended by product. Delusion knows no reason.
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