Initial Thoughts on raven Game

[diver]

So, in other words, no, you can't explain the Pederson/Foles question. Got it.

Actually, what's stupid is your blanket statement that every coach who wins a championship is "dragged" there by his players. Good coaching compliments great players and vice-versa. There have been dozens upon dozens of examples of teams loaded with great players throughout NFL history that haven't won championships. And trying to prove your fallacy that coaching doesn't matter because Andy Reid never threw a pass is about as stupid as you can get.

Maybe Noll wanted to ensure that everyone (especially you) believes that his life's work was completely meaningless. You know, since he had to be dragged along to those four Super Bowl wins by his players. Noll never threw a pass. Surely any WPIAL high school coach from the 1970s could have stepped right into his shoes and been dragged just the same, right? Do you understand how ridiculous that sounds?

They got hot at the right time? The sun shines on every dogs asss at some point? Why couldn't they sustain it? If it was some kind of superior, other worldy coaching wouldn't they have been able to sustain it like those other guys I mentioned? Why don't you explain it?

No shiit good coaching compliments. I never said it didn't. I also have never said coaching doesn't matter. Remember the main point that was made here. Mike Tomlin, and only Mike Tomlin apparently, would have to be"drug" to a championship. But I just can't get by the little point that since coaches don't play, on some level every coach gets dragged there. Any coach who has any honesty would admit that, like Chuck Noll did. A coach can put all kinds of wonderful plans or systems together, but what do you know, it's the players that gotta execute those plans and systems. It is such a basic truth. You guys twist yourselves in such pretzels trying to show all the ways Tomlin sucks that you lose common sense. I also find it funny that every idiot assertion about how bad Tomlin is must be agreed with.

You love the strawman, don't you? Let's take the reverse of the stupidity you posted there. You must be saying with the brilliant coaching of anybody else not named Mike Tomlin, they could take some WPIAL teams and win a Super Bowl. I never asserted a high school coach could step in there, nor did I assert coaching was meaningless. Noll was a great coach and the Steelers probably don't win 4 Super Bowls without him. But guess what? He doesn't win them without his players, either. Which was his point.

 

[diver]

I think our offense doesn't help any qb we have or had. It stifles them.

We all were told with Russ our Offense would open up. I see that same offense that I have seen for the last handful of seasons.

Sure. It gives us a good possibility to make the post season yearly. It doesn't give us a chance to do anything in the playoffs once we are there though.

I know. We are a few players away at a couple of positions.

I see a schematic issues. On both sides of the ball. What we do is limited. We have talent. Unfortunately our system limits them. My take anyway.

The Steelers haven't had that top QB since 2018. I don't know if it stifles them or not. Have any of them been good enough to not be stifled? I agree with you to a point, with that caveat. I just think they are limited by their talent on offense. The QB, lack of a real 2, young OL and a plodder at RB. That makes what you see.

Defensively, I agree. They need a change there. Teams unload the ball fast and take their best players out of the equation, or chip them enough and the Steelers don't cover. They gotta reevaluate the way they are doing things on that side of the ball, because the talent is there. I'd start with some dominant big people on the line. It is there where I can agree the system is letting down the players.

 

[stillwright]

The Steelers haven't had that top QB since 2018. I don't know if it stifles them or not. Have any of them been good enough to not be stifled? I agree with you to a point, with that caveat. I just think they are limited by their talent on offense. The QB, lack of a real 2, young OL and a plodder at RB. That makes what you see.

Defensively, I agree. They need a change there. Teams unload the ball fast and take their best players out of the equation, or chip them enough and the Steelers don't cover. They gotta reevaluate the way they are doing things on that side of the ball, because the talent is there. I'd start with some dominant big people on the line. It is there where I can agree the system is letting down the players.

Not using the middle of the field is part of this offense. Running on all but every 1st down play is a part of this offense. Stifle might actually be an understatement.

 

[diver]

Not using the middle of the field is part of this offense. Running on all but every 1st down play is a part of this offense. Stifle might actually be an understatement.

I know, and it is a major disappointment with Arthur Smith, or whoever you believe is running the show offensively. I was hoping they would look at the propensity to run on every first down when they get from the 20 on in. I think its changed a little, but not much. Can Russ throws over the middle? The Scouts Eye guy when they signed him said this was his big weakness.

 

[stillwright]

I know, and it is a major disappointment with Arthur Smith, or whoever you believe is running the show offensively. I was hoping they would look at the propensity to run on every first down when they get from the 20 on in. I think its changed a little, but not much. Can Russ throws over the middle? The Scouts Eye guy when they signed him said this was his big weakness.

I watched both Pickett and Rudolph play this past weekend. Weird thing is both threw to the middle of the field during their games.....often. Yet here it was a rarity if ever. That is the HC stifling the Offense.

 

[diver]

I watched both Pickett and Rudolph play this past weekend. Weird thing is both threw to the middle of the field during their games.....often. Yet here it was a rarity if ever. That is the HC stifling the Offense.

Successfully? There is throwing over the middle and then throwing over the middle competently.

I want the Steelers to throw over the middle. They aren't going to go anywhere offensively unless they use the whole field. If it is the HC holding them back, it's not like he held Ben back in his prime from doing it. So he will do it. Maybe he just lacks confidence in the QBs he has. Ok, fair enough. Then get a QB you have confidence can make all those throws.

 

[Aussie_Steeler]

I know, and it is a major disappointment with Arthur Smith, or whoever you believe is running the show offensively. I was hoping they would look at the propensity to run on every first down when they get from the 20 on in. I think its changed a little, but not much. Can Russ throws over the middle? The Scouts Eye guy when they signed him said this was his big weakness.

I think he can when he is in space because he has done it successfully to Austin and Freiermuth a few times. BUT, his lack of height appears to affect his ability to go over the middle (or short) when pressured - he had three short pass attempts batted or tipped against Philadelphia (not all of them were going over the middle).

 

[Fiji Mariner]

No shiit good coaching compliments. I never said it didn't.

You actually did assert earlier in this very thread that the top 5 teams in the league coaches were all getting drug.

“The best teams in the league right now...Kansas City, Buffalo, Baltimore, Philly, Detroit” your words and your assertion

“I'd be willing to bet a combination of those first 5 teams will be standing championship weekend. I would argue they are dragging each of their coaches anywhere.” Your words again followed by a your BS assertion you are now back tracking on.

It’s ok to contradict yourself as long as you’re finally learning. Kudos for the lightbulb moment, I won’t hold the contradiction against you.

Yes Mike got drug there by Ben and Co…

Several other coaches compliment and contribute to the success of getting there and do not need a good dragging there. See some of those very teams from your top 5 list that actually have complimentary coaching assisting in the effort.

A few other coaches have needed a dragging in the past too (it’s not only Mike)
But the majority compliment the effort…Mike simply wasn’t in that majority that included good players and good coaching…he required a solid dragging.

Mike is a hurdle to success,
Many coaches are not
It’s quite simple

 

[Aussie_Steeler]

I watched both Pickett and Rudolph play this past weekend. Weird thing is both threw to the middle of the field during their games.....often. Yet here it was a rarity if ever. That is the HC stifling the Offense.

Successfully? There is throwing over the middle and then throwing over the middle competently.

Looking at the play by play description on ESPN (which I know is not the same as watching the game) it actually does look like most of Rudolph's passes over the middle moved the chains. Nearly all of his incompletions and interceptions were on wide passes. He did get intercepted going deep over the middle at the end when Tennessee needed a touchdown on the last play of the game to level the scores.

Pickett 14/24 143 yards, 1 Touchdown, 1 interception.

 

[Black & Gold Bleeder]

i always hoped for better for him

 

[diver]

You actually did assert earlier in this very thread that the top 5 teams in the league coaches were all getting drug.

“The best teams in the league right now...Kansas City, Buffalo, Baltimore, Philly, Detroit” your words and your assertion

“I'd be willing to bet a combination of those first 5 teams will be standing championship weekend. I would argue they are dragging each of their coaches anywhere.” Your words again followed by a your BS assertion you are now back tracking on.

It’s ok to contradict yourself as long as you’re finally learning. Kudos for the lightbulb moment, I won’t hold the contradiction against you.

Yes Mike got drug there by Ben and Co…

Several other coaches compliment and contribute to the success of getting there and do not need a good dragging there. See some of those very teams from your top 5 list that actually have complimentary coaching assisting in the effort.

A few other coaches have needed a dragging in the past too (it’s not only Mike)
But the majority compliment the effort…Mike simply wasn’t in that majority that included good players and good coaching…he required a solid dragging.

Mike is a hurdle to success,
Many coaches are not
It’s quite simple

Again, being that coaches DO NOT PLAY, by the very nature of that unavoidable fact, they are getting "drug." Can a coach win a championship without his players? That is exactly what I have meant by that, and have stated that in each post I made. I haven't contradicted anything. I never meant that coaches do not contribute anything. That is a strawman of your creation. You guys see any argument with one of your points about Tomlin as an insult.

That is why this whole conversation lacks common sense. Every coach who has coached has been "drug" to his success to one degree or another, whatever that may be. Now where I agree with you is that some coaches may be more of an impediment to success than others. Some coaches need more "dragging." Tomlin would appear to be one of them. But they are ALL "drug."

Merry Christmas! I truly hope you and your family have a wonderful day.

 

[topseed]

They got hot at the right time? The sun shines on every dogs asss at some point? Why couldn't they sustain it? If it was some kind of superior, other worldy coaching wouldn't they have been able to sustain it like those other guys I mentioned? Why don't you explain it?

Oh, I see. So no matter what happens, it's always the players dragging the coach. If Nick Foles was some kind of superior, other-worldly player, why was he out of the league at 33?

No shiit good coaching compliments. I never said it didn't. I also have never said coaching doesn't matter. Remember the main point that was made here. Mike Tomlin, and only Mike Tomlin apparently, would have to be"drug" to a championship. But I just can't get by the little point that since coaches don't play, on some level every coach gets dragged there. Any coach who has any honesty would admit that, like Chuck Noll did. A coach can put all kinds of wonderful plans or systems together, but what do you know, it's the players that gotta execute those plans and systems. It is such a basic truth. You guys twist yourselves in such pretzels trying to show all the ways Tomlin sucks that you lose common sense. I also find it funny that every idiot assertion about how bad Tomlin is must be agreed with.

You never say a lot of things. What you do is cover your @ss by talking out of both sides of your mouth. Yes, diver, we know that coaches don't play, and you never saw Andy Reid throw a pass, and if a coach happens to win a Super Bowl, it's only because of the players dragging him along.

Tomlin has had good players in Pittsburgh for many years. Very good players. He had a future Hall of Fame quarterback in his prime. He's had a perennial defensive player-of-the-year candidate who still hasn't sniffed any postseason success in EIGHT years. Tomlin's only managed to win 3 playoff games in the last 13 seasons, and 2 of those were against backup quarterbacks. HIS system clearly does NOT work.

But, oh please, remind me again how he was the only coach who was able to lead the Steelers to a championship in 2008...his second season. Can you actually look somebody in the face and say that this guy has shown a single iota of improvement as a head coach since then? MT got lucky. Right place at the right time, just like Barry Switzer. There's your sun shining on a dog's @ss moment. When you come to understand that, you'll stop making your own idiot assertions.

You love the strawman, don't you? Let's take the reverse of the stupidity you posted there. You must be saying with the brilliant coaching of anybody else not named Mike Tomlin, they could take some WPIAL teams and win a Super Bowl. I never asserted a high school coach could step in there, nor did I assert coaching was meaningless. Noll was a great coach and the Steelers probably don't win 4 Super Bowls without him. But guess what? He doesn't win them without his players, either. Which was his point.

Strawman? Yes, diver, I believe that a high school football team with the right coaching could win the Super Bowl. Sure. The more you say, the less intelligent you sound.

 

[diver]

Oh, I see. So no matter what happens, it's always the players dragging the coach. If Nick Foles was some kind of superior, other-worldly player, why was he out of the league at 33?

You never say a lot of things. What you do is cover your @ss by talking out of both sides of your mouth. Yes, diver, we know that coaches don't play, and you never saw Andy Reid throw a pass, and if a coach happens to win a Super Bowl, it's only because of the players dragging him along.

Tomlin has had good players in Pittsburgh for many years. Very good players. He had a future Hall of Fame quarterback in his prime. He's had a perennial defensive player-of-the-year candidate who still hasn't sniffed any postseason success in EIGHT years. Tomlin's only managed to win 3 playoff games in the last 13 seasons, and 2 of those were against backup quarterbacks. HIS system clearly does NOT work.

But, oh please, remind me again how he was the only coach who was able to lead the Steelers to a championship in 2008...his second season. Can you actually look somebody in the face and say that this guy has shown a single iota of improvement as a head coach since then? MT got lucky. Right place at the right time, just like Barry Switzer. There's your sun shining on a dog's @ss moment. When you come to understand that, you'll stop making your own idiot assertions.

Strawman? Yes, diver, I believe that a high school football team with the right coaching could win the Super Bowl. Sure. The more you say, the less intelligent you sound.

Yes. The players ALWAYS drag the coach to some degree. Even great coaches. It is just a fact that you cannot escape, since coaches don't play. I just can't get beyond the common sense of that you don't seem to want to admit. Look at yesterday. Andy Reid can coach circles around Mike Tomlin. No argument there. I think a number plays Mahomes made that don't have a damn thing to do with coaching that extended drives to scores. Those plays didn't have a damn thing to do with Reid's coaching talent but led to the win. Without those plays, shiit, KC still probably wins, but it's a lot closer. The two shovel passes Mahomes threw to keep scoring drives going, the bomb to Watson (if you are going to argue that was coaching then I guess those throws and catches to/by Pickens must be Tomlin's brillance), and his overall movement in the pocket that is God-given.

I don't have to cover my ***. I like the banter, but just don't give a shiit what you think. On this I am right. The day I see a coach win a Super Bowl by himself, without players, well then you will be on to something.

Tomlin's system isn't working. I did not assert that it is. That is a different argument than the "dragging" argument. I agree with you here.

Being that he was the coach in 2008, unless you change history somehow, he led them there. That is a fact you have to deal with. I clearly stated that does not mean he should have a lifetime appointment, but diminishing that accomplishment to make the point how he shouldn't be coach anymore is dumb. You can say he hasn't built a team of his own without taking away from the 2008 championship. It is not necessary. Ben and Harrison and Holmes...yes, "dragged" him to that victory. Like every coach that ever coached a team to a championship...since they don't play.

You are the one who made some ridiculous point about a high school coach...whatever the hell you said. It was stupid. So I turned it around on you. Now you see how stupid it was.

 

[topseed]

Yes. The players ALWAYS drag the coach to some degree. Even great coaches. It is just a fact that you cannot escape, since coaches don't play. I just can't get beyond the common sense of that you don't seem to want to admit. Look at yesterday. Andy Reid can coach circles around Mike Tomlin. No argument there. I think a number plays Mahomes made that don't have a damn thing to do with coaching that extended drives to scores. Those plays didn't have a damn thing to do with Reid's coaching talent but led to the win. Without those plays, shiit, KC still probably wins, but it's a lot closer. The two shovel passes Mahomes threw to keep scoring drives going, the bomb to Watson (if you are going to argue that was coaching then I guess those throws and catches to/by Pickens must be Tomlin's brillance), and his overall movement in the pocket that is God-given.

I don't have to cover my ***. I like the banter, but just don't give a shiit what you think. On this I am right. The day I see a coach win a Super Bowl by himself, without players, well then you will be on to something.

Tomlin's system isn't working. I did not assert that it is. That is a different argument than the "dragging" argument. I agree with you here.

Being that he was the coach in 2008, unless you change history somehow, he led them there. That is a fact you have to deal with. I clearly stated that does not mean he should have a lifetime appointment, but diminishing that accomplishment to make the point how he shouldn't be coach anymore is dumb. You can say he hasn't built a team of his own without taking away from the 2008 championship. It is not necessary. Ben and Harrison and Holmes...yes, "dragged" him to that victory. Like every coach that ever coached a team to a championship...since they don't play.

You are the one who made some ridiculous point about a high school coach...whatever the hell you said. It was stupid. So I turned it around on you. Now you see how stupid it was.

Coaches don't play. Wow. That's cutting edge info right there...thanks for straightening that out. What great coaches do, however, is put their players in the best position to win. Do you think Mike Tomlin put his players in the best position to win yesterday? Did you like the way his defensive game plan allowed an aged Travis Kelce run free all day? Do you think that only having 2 defensive lineman helps or hurts TJ Watt? Do you like the way he gave up on fourth down and conceded the game for the third week in a row? Can it always be the players' fault that the Steelers are consistently appearing on the "Haven't Scored an Opening Drive Touchdown in X-Amount of Weeks" list year after year after year?

You never assert anything. You'll continue to claim that you want Tomlin gone, yet you still defend him at every turn, and you'll beat that 2008 drum from 16 years ago until the day you die. It's nauseating.

What's sad is any high school coach, or you, or me, or any other person on this planet could have had the same number of playoff wins as the head coach of the Pittsburgh Steelers over the last seven years as Tomlin does: ZERO.

 

[diver]

Coaches don't play. Wow. That's cutting edge info right there...thanks for straightening that out. What great coaches do, however, is put their players in the best position to win. Do you think Mike Tomlin put his players in the best position to win yesterday? Did you like the way his defensive game plan allowed an aged Travis Kelce run free all day? Do you think that only having 2 defensive lineman helps or hurts TJ Watt? Do you like the way he gave up on fourth down and conceded the game for the third week in a row? Can it always be the players' fault that the Steelers are consistently appearing on the "Haven't Scored an Opening Drive Touchdown in X-Amount of Weeks" list year after year after year?

You never assert anything. You'll continue to claim that you want Tomlin gone, yet you still defend him at every turn, and you'll beat that 2008 drum from 16 years ago until the day you die. It's nauseating.

What's sad is any high school coach, or you, or me, or any other person on this planet could have had the same number of playoff wins as the head coach of the Pittsburgh Steelers over the last seven years as Tomlin does: ZERO.

Yeah, it's that damn simple. Thank you for finally getting it. It's the very nature of sports.

When I said that Andy Reid could coach circles around Mike Tomlin, what do you read? Is that a ringing endorsement of Mike Tomlin's performance? You all pretty much cover all the minutiae of every decision Mike Tomlin makes. Seems redundant for me to add to what you all have covered. I see what you see. It can't be defended. To be honest, it's why I say very little. It is very bothersome to me too, and it doesn't really make me feel great rehashing the shiit I see out there right now. Because if we haven't figured it out yet, they ain't firing the guy. Mike Tomlin has to come to the realization that what he is doing isn't working and walks away. And he might be like the Pope. Or Joe Paterno. Only in death will he depart.

But then, rest assured, you guys can't leave it at that, you will go to the ridiculous. Mike Tomlin needs to be "dragged" to success, unlike any other coach. Or Mike Tomlin should have laid up in Week 14 against the Eagles. Yet, the same people biitch about him punting, like you just did. Or Mike Tomlin plays guys because they are his buddy. Or he ran off Munch. Or he doesn't discipline guys...but then there was a theory on here in the last week that maybe he is being too tough on Roman Wilson. I beat that 2008 drum because in every damn thread about Mike Tomlin someone will say, yet again, "he won with a Cowher team!" You are just being flat out dishonest if you don't acknowledge that in damn near every Tomlin thread that is stated at least once. To me that is nauseating.

It is sad. I don't know how the hell the guy has a job here yet...well, I think I do know, and it's nothing devious. It's nothing conspiratorial. He's built a lot of relationships over 17 or whatever years. At this point it's like firing a really close friend, or a brother or something like that. It's probably hard as hell. But let me ask you, I have now asserted my feelings pretty clearly about Tomlin. Does it change anything?