Initial Thoughts on raven Game

[SteelerFan448]

I would take Andy Reid in a heartbeat over Mike Tomlin. Let's be clear. All of us would. But let's not rewrite history. Would we have taken him when Philly ran him after 2012?

Reid has had a remarkable career looking at his record. In 19 seasons without Mahomes as the starter, 12 seasons with 10+ wins, 13 playoff appearances with at least 1 win in 8 of those appearances, 1 NFC Championship.

 

[madinsomniac]

Reid is probably the only great head coach in this era.. BB cheated so he doesnt count... tgere are above average guys, but no real great guys...

 

[topseed]

As I said, though, Russ was going into these recent games against the best teams in the league without his best WR. I just do not think that can be overstated.

Without their only consistent playmaker at WR, the Steelers really needed their defense to pick up the slack and it just hasn't happened.

For all we know, these games would have looked even worse with Fields, as Russ has been able to get Austin, Jefferson and the TEs more involved than Fields was able to earlier in the season.

It's doubtful that Fields would have been able to run much more against the Eagles and Ravens defenses than Russ was able to.

I agree that the offense is severely handicapped without Pickens, but let's not pretend that Russ got Jefferson and the tight ends involved on Saturday -- they combined for a grand total of 47 yards against the second-worst passing defense in the NFL, and the tight ends averaged 4 yards per catch.

We don't know if the offense would have looked worse with Fields. What I do know is that Wilson gives up on plays and opts to throw the ball out of bounds more than any other quarterback I have ever seen. Fields probably turns a couple of those into positive results with his legs or his stronger arm.

 

[topseed]

Bullshiit. Symbiotic? For the love. Andy Reid was everything we all gripe about Mike Tomlin in Philly. They ran him out on a rail! All the sudden he gets Patrick Mahomes and boom! he's a genius. Great players make coaches great. Look, argue with me all you want.

OK, I'll argue with you.

They ran Andy Reid out of Philadelphia on a rail after he hadn't won a playoff game over his last four seasons there. Tomlin hasn't won a postseason game over his last 7 years and counting. We'll be at 8 here in a few weeks. That's going on 4 extra years by my math.

The Eagles went on to win a Super Bowl under a new head coach. Andy Reid went on to win three Super Bowls with his new team. Both the Eagles and Chiefs are legitimate championship contenders again this year. Pittsburgh is about to provide yet another edition of limping into round one of the playoffs, only to be embarrassed again.

The Steelers' ownership should have learned their lesson by now...but they've chosen the easier, safer path of above average mediocrity which Tomlin provides. Apparently, that's all they need.

 

[MT~Forged]

Great QB’s have always made Head Coaches appear better than they may really have been. This is a fact, and most people agree. An above average coach does not normally elevate his team, they tend to remain where they are.

The General - He had Terry Bradshaw, without Bradshaw and half of the HOF, he was much less.
The Chin - Once he got Big Ben, he started rolling, also had great supporting players and a generational DC
The Impersonator - Had Big Ben and great coaches, didn’t muck up the works. Given complete control after 4-5 years of great players and coaches chosen for him, has really done nothing meaningful since being GIVEN control.

I have said it before, Tomlin is an average to slightly above average HC. He has definitely done less with more, with zero indication that will change.

The BIGGEST problem is the man at the top, and his willingness to accept continued non-losing seasons. AR2 shows complete willingness to accept not being relevant in the Post Season, because they don’t lose enough to force his hand.

The SECOND BIGGEST problem is the FANS in the Pittsburgh area not being dedicated to forcing AR2 to make a change. A concerted effort by local fans to stay home from a couple games would really send the message. Stay home and watch the games on tv, or at least in the parking lots. Billboard advertising has also been used in the past, very effectively. The fans have all the power, they just won’t use it. Ideally a Nationally televised game would be best for spending the game in the parking lots.

 

[Steelersfan84]

He also pushed to trade up to get Patrick Mahomes, in a draft where teams voluntarily passed on Mahomes to draft Mitchell Trubisky, Solomon Thomas, Corey Davis, Mike Williams, John Ross, etc.



Some coaches have great players and eke out wins and then get run out of the playoffs in the early rounds. The 2014 Steelers had a HOF QB who threw for 4952 yards and 32 TD's, an elite RB who average 4.7 yards per carry and put up more than 2200 yards from scrimmage, the best WR in football who posted 1700 receiving yards and 13 TD's, an excellent TE who put up more than 750 receiving yards, a couple of talented pass rushers, a very good young DT who had 7.5 sacks ... and lost to a terrible 4-12 Jets team, was mauled by a 7-9 Browns team, lost to a 2-14 Tampa Bay team that was astonishingly bad, made the playoffs and then got blown out in the first playoff game.

Losses to absolutely terrible teams that cost a division title, a talented team that is mauled in the playoffs ... known as a "Mike Tomlin special."



His offensive planning and ability to put together a good defense from guys not highly thought of make me say "yes."

When was the last time an Andy Reid team lost to a team at least 8 games under .500? Tomlin has done just that three times in two years. The idea that Andy Reid and Mike Tomlin are remotely comparable is just not credible.



THAT is the entire ******* issue. First, if a team has better players overall (but where the Steelers have the best pass rusher on the field and the best safety and the best TE and arguably the best defensive lineman), then losing is one thing; getting ***-raped twice in a row is another.

Second, the endless series of losses to dreadful teams is just not acceptable any more. It isn't. Losses to the wretched Cowboys, Colts and Clowns account for the current problems. Fact.



Again, in any contest where Tomlin does not have a massive advantage in player talent, he gets mauled; where he has that massive advantage in talent, he very often loses to dogshit opponents and squeaks out nail-biters in most others.

And then gets blown out in the playoffs.

And this is why he has to go.

 

[Steelersfan84]

Great QB’s have always made Head Coaches appear better than they may really have been. This is a fact, and most people agree. An above average coach does not normally elevate his team, they tend to remain where they are.

The General - He had Terry Bradshaw, without Bradshaw and half of the HOF, he was much less.
The Chin - Once he got Big Ben, he started rolling, also had great supporting players and a generational DC
The Impersonator - Had Big Ben and great coaches, didn’t muck up the works. Given complete control after 4-5 years of great players and coaches chosen for him, has really done nothing meaningful since being GIVEN control.

I have said it before, Tomlin is an average to slightly above average HC. He has definitely done less with more, with zero indication that will change.

The BIGGEST problem is the man at the top, and his willingness to accept continued non-losing seasons. AR2 shows complete willingness to accept not being relevant in the Post Season, because they don’t lose enough to force his hand.

The SECOND BIGGEST problem is the FANS in the Pittsburgh area not being dedicated to forcing AR2 to make a change. A concerted effort by local fans to stay home from a couple games would really send the message. Stay home and watch the games on tv, or at least in the parking lots. Billboard advertising has also been used in the past, very effectively. The fans have all the power, they just won’t use it. Ideally a Nationally televised game would be best for spending the game in the parking lots.

Cowher went to 4 AFC Championship games, won 7 division titles and went to a sb before Ben.

 

[Fiji Mariner]

So you are proposing a coach, in Week 14 of a season, have his team lay up in a game? What the hell kind of message does that send? Has any other coach that you know of done that...in Week 14 of a 17 game season? I don't recall anything like that and I think that shows that no NFL football coach would call that coaching.

It sends the kind of message that the coach has learned and values his players over Goodell’s
$$$

It was a smart move before the game happened
And an even smarter move in hindsight
A few of us proposed this before the game
No second guessing here, the game was unimportant …the Rats game was of utmost importance

A coach simply enters the locker room and says” the league tried to **** us but we’re gonna **** them” there is one game we need to win and we start prepping now. “They can’t make us play 3 in 10…we run this *****!”

But Mike isn’t smart and is one of the worst chess playing and load managing coaches in the league and has been for some time

Ya know what happens when ya run the wheels off a car…it crashes dumbass

Just cuz you don’t recall it matters not…good coaches find ways to win meaningful games and are innovative

It’s a results driven league and the only result Mike gets is driving his car with no wheels into crashes, ditches if the dumbass is lucky

 

[Fiji Mariner]

Reid has had a remarkable career looking at his record. In 19 seasons without Mahomes as the starter, 12 seasons with 10+ wins, 13 playoff appearances with at least 1 win in 8 of those appearances, 1 NFC Championship.

And then it only gets even better once he gets his guy, a guy he positioned himself to get

Coaching!!!!

 

[diver]

OK, I'll argue with you.

They ran Andy Reid out of Philadelphia on a rail after he hadn't won a playoff game over his last four seasons there. Tomlin hasn't won a postseason game over his last 7 years and counting. We'll be at 8 here in a few weeks. That's going on 4 extra years by my math.

The Eagles went on to win a Super Bowl under a new head coach. Andy Reid went on to win three Super Bowls with his new team. Both the Eagles and Chiefs are legitimate championship contenders again this year. Pittsburgh is about to provide yet another edition of limping into round one of the playoffs, only to be embarrassed again.

The Steelers' ownership should have learned their lesson by now...but they've chosen the easier, safer path of above average mediocrity which Tomlin provides. Apparently, that's all they need.

I don't disagree with you at all, but that is a different issue to the idea I am contesting. The argument was that Mike Tomlin would need to be dragged to a championship by his players. He does. I would argue every coach does. Andy didn't win championships until Mahomes and that is what this is about. Like someone pointed out, before Mahomes, Reid was a lot like Bill Cowher, and I remember the version of this board after the 2004 AFCC game against the Patriots. Cowher would not have been elected dog catcher. But Ben, boom! and he is wished for now.

 

[diver]

It sends the kind of message that the coach has learned and values his players over Goodell’s
$$$

It was a smart move before the game happened
And an even smarter move in hindsight
A few of us proposed this before the game
No second guessing here, the game was unimportant …the Rats game was of utmost importance

A coach simply enters the locker room and says” the league tried to **** us but we’re gonna **** them” there is one game we need to win and we start prepping now. “They can’t make us play 3 in 10…we run this *****!”

But Mike isn’t smart and is one of the worst chess playing and load managing coaches in the league and has been for some time

Ya know what happens when ya run the wheels off a car…it crashes dumbass

Just cuz you don’t recall it matters not…good coaches find ways to win meaningful games and are innovative

It’s a results driven league and the only result Mike gets is driving his car with no wheels into crashes, ditches if the dumbass is lucky

It's a stupid, puussy approach. What the league did sucks, but that is pathetic.

 

[diver]

And then it only gets even better once he gets his guy, a guy he positioned himself to get

Coaching!!!!

I'll concede that...to a point. He moved up, but 9 teams in front didn't take Mahomes. That luck kinda helps. So Coaching!!! and Luck!!!

 

[GILBERT]

How about the defense that got shredded on the ground and let Lamar pass at will when they couldn't pressure him? They absolutely do not get a pass.

They definitely should not get pass. And I can't stand when DB's have a 'mis-communication'. They get paid millions of dollars and have a break-down. "oh - I thought you had him!'. haha.
I did think the offence was rolling a bit. Fumble by RW changed the game. I thought they were taking control and Ravens were looking vulnerable. Add pick 6. That's a 14 point swing.

 

[topseed]

I don't disagree with you at all, but that is a different issue to the idea I am contesting. The argument was that Mike Tomlin would need to be dragged to a championship by his players. He does. I would argue every coach does. Andy didn't win championships until Mahomes and that is what this is about. Like someone pointed out, before Mahomes, Reid was a lot like Bill Cowher, and I remember the version of this board after the 2004 AFCC game against the Patriots. Cowher would not have been elected dog catcher. But Ben, boom! and he is wished for now.

Great. You care to explain how Doug Pederson won a Super Bowl with Nick Foles as his quarterback?

 

[Troglodyte]

I agree that the offense is severely handicapped without Pickens, but let's not pretend that Russ got Jefferson and the tight ends involved on Saturday -- they combined for a grand total of 47 yards against the second-worst passing defense in the NFL, and the tight ends averaged 4 yards per catch.

We don't know if the offense would have looked worse with Fields. What I do know is that Wilson gives up on plays and opts to throw the ball out of bounds more than any other quarterback I have ever seen. Fields probably turns a couple of those into positive results with his legs or his stronger arm.

There’s been a lot of pressure on Wilson. The OL needs to step up their pass blocking. Wilson had 3 runs for 27 yards yesterday.

 

[topseed]

There’s been a lot of pressure on Wilson. The OL needs to step up their pass blocking. Wilson had 3 runs for 27 yards yesterday.

Yes, Russ had 3 rushes for 27 yards...and just that one crucial fumble inside the five yard line. He's been sliding early all year and has not been taking upright hits on the run. Fields probably scores on that play.

The offensive line was a question mark when Wilson took over, and it still is. I don't want another season with an even older Russ. I wanted to see how Fields could do as the Steelers' full-time starter with an eye on the future. Now he's probably out of here after one year, and we're most likely left with an older, slower, and much more expensive Russell Wilson in 2025. Awesome.

 

[stillwright]

I don't disagree with you at all, but that is a different issue to the idea I am contesting. The argument was that Mike Tomlin would need to be dragged to a championship by his players. He does. I would argue every coach does. Andy didn't win championships until Mahomes and that is what this is about. Like someone pointed out, before Mahomes, Reid was a lot like Bill Cowher, and I remember the version of this board after the 2004 AFCC game against the Patriots. Cowher would not have been elected dog catcher. But Ben, boom! and he is wished for now.

Do you think Mahomes wins a championship in the offense the Steelers have put out there over the last 5 years? Do you think maybe coaching has something to do with Mahomes success possibly?

 

[diver]

Great. You care to explain how Doug Pederson won a Super Bowl with Nick Foles as his quarterback?

Yep. And so did Brian Billick with Trent Dilfer. It happens on a very rare occasion. Has Andy Reid won without Mahomes? Or Belechick without Brady? Noll without Bradshaw? Some of the greatest coaches of all time? But they couldn't win shiit without their franchise guy "dragging" them there. Or in Billick's case, and all-time defense "dragging" him there.

It is such a stupid argument. Being that coaches don't play, a pretty important component of the game, they are all "drug" to their success or lack thereof. I don't think I ever saw Andy out there throwing a pass.

Why would Noll make a point out of saying it's about the players? What, was he just trying so hard to be humble and self-depreciating, desperately hiding the fact that he thought he was he greatest thing since canned beer, or do you think he may have meant it?

 

[diver]

Do you think Mahomes wins a championship in the offense the Steelers have put out there over the last 5 years? Do you think maybe coaching has something to do with Mahomes success possibly?

Sure it does. Why the hell is it always and either/or situation? With you guys it is all Tomlin all the time. I see mentions of player failings, quick mentions. Then it's back to the same old Tomlin, Tomlin, Tomlin.

And do you guys miss the many times I said I wish they would have moved on from Tomlin? Or do you just need lockstep agreement with every stupid theory that gets thrown out there? Like the two in this thread. Tomlin, unlike other coaches, needs to be "dragged" to a championship, and if Tomlin was a good coach he should have had the Steelers lay up in Week 14...Week 14! of the season.

I think if the Steelers had Mahomes, they wouldn't be putting out that offense. Since 2019 their QBs have been Mason Rudolph, Duck Hodges, a diminished Ben, Mitch Trubisky, Kenny Pickett, back to Rudolph, and not sure really yet what you have with Russ. Now it's the Steelers fault they have had that run of QBs, but what the hell kind of offense would you put out there? Would you try to do in Pittsburgh what Kansas City does with Mahomes with any of those QBs?

 

[Fiji Mariner]

It's a stupid, puussy approach. What the league did sucks, but that is pathetic.

Meh
It’s innovative and a better strategy
I’m sorry you can’t comprehend anything beyond your standardized mediocre thought process

Sorry you’re stuck in your force fed box

Not risking in a game with little possible reward is simply wise investing

Sorry your broke a$$ thought process lacks the comprehension

Done with ya, your thought processes are akin to mediocre mikes game plan…they lack both intelligence and innovation

 

[diver]

Meh
It’s innovative and a better strategy
I’m sorry you can’t comprehend anything beyond your standardized mediocre thought process

Sorry you’re stuck in your force fed box

Not risking in a game with little possible reward is simply wise investing

Sorry your broke a$$ thought process lacks the comprehension

Done with ya, your thought processes are akin to mediocre mikes game plan…they lack both intelligence and innovation

That's funny. It's stupid. It is a terrible precedent to set. Let the players feel sorry for themselves. Especially some of the 14-year old heads on the roster. Let them think only certain games are important. Oh, yeah, that's forward thinking. Have you ever coached? You never, ever do that.

 

[topseed]

Yep. And so did Brian Billick with Trent Dilfer. It happens on a very rare occasion. Has Andy Reid won without Mahomes? Or Belechick without Brady? Noll without Bradshaw? Some of the greatest coaches of all time? But they couldn't win shiit without their franchise guy "dragging" them there. Or in Billick's case, and all-time defense "dragging" him there.

So, in other words, no, you can't explain the Pederson/Foles question. Got it.

It is such a stupid argument. Being that coaches don't play, a pretty important component of the game, they are all "drug" to their success or lack thereof. I don't think I ever saw Andy out there throwing a pass.

Actually, what's stupid is your blanket statement that every coach who wins a championship is "dragged" there by his players. Good coaching compliments great players and vice-versa. There have been dozens upon dozens of examples of teams loaded with great players throughout NFL history that haven't won championships. And trying to prove your fallacy that coaching doesn't matter because Andy Reid never threw a pass is about as stupid as you can get.

Why would Noll make a point out of saying it's about the players? What, was he just trying so hard to be humble and self-depreciating, desperately hiding the fact that he thought he was he greatest thing since canned beer, or do you think he may have meant it?

Maybe Noll wanted to ensure that everyone (especially you) believes that his life's work was completely meaningless. You know, since he had to be dragged along to those four Super Bowl wins by his players. Noll never threw a pass. Surely any WPIAL high school coach from the 1970s could have stepped right into his shoes and been dragged just the same, right? Do you understand how ridiculous that sounds?

 

[MT~Forged]

Great QB’s have always made Head Coaches appear better than they may really have been. This is a fact, and most people agree. An above average coach does not normally elevate his team, they tend to remain where they are.

The General - He had Terry Bradshaw, without Bradshaw and half of the HOF, he was much less.
The Chin - Once he got Big Ben, he started rolling, also had great supporting players and a generational DC
The Impersonator - Had Big Ben and great coaches, didn’t muck up the works. Given complete control after 4-5 years of great players and coaches chosen for him, has really done nothing meaningful since being GIVEN control.

I have said it before, Tomlin is an average to slightly above average HC. He has definitely done less with more, with zero indication that will change.

The BIGGEST problem is the man at the top, and his willingness to accept continued non-losing seasons. AR2 shows complete willingness to accept not being relevant in the Post Season, because they don’t lose enough to force his hand.

The SECOND BIGGEST problem is the FANS in the Pittsburgh area not being dedicated to forcing AR2 to make a change. A concerted effort by local fans to stay home from a couple games would really send the message. Stay home and watch the games on tv, or at least in the parking lots. Billboard advertising has also been used in the past, very effectively. The fans have all the power, they just won’t use it. Ideally a Nationally televised game would be best for spending the game in the parking lots.

Cowher went to 4 AFC Championship games, won 7 division titles and went to a sb before Ben.

you are correct, I meant to imply that Ben was the piece that Cowher needed to get over the top.

 

[stillwright]

Sure it does. Why the hell is it always and either/or situation? With you guys it is all Tomlin all the time. I see mentions of player failings, quick mentions. Then it's back to the same old Tomlin, Tomlin, Tomlin.

And do you guys miss the many times I said I wish they would have moved on from Tomlin? Or do you just need lockstep agreement with every stupid theory that gets thrown out there? Like the two in this thread. Tomlin, unlike other coaches, needs to be "dragged" to a championship, and if Tomlin was a good coach he should have had the Steelers lay up in Week 14...Week 14! of the season.

I think if the Steelers had Mahomes, they wouldn't be putting out that offense. Since 2019 their QBs have been Mason Rudolph, Duck Hodges, a diminished Ben, Mitch Trubisky, Kenny Pickett, back to Rudolph, and not sure really yet what you have with Russ. Now it's the Steelers fault they have had that run of QBs, but what the hell kind of offense would you put out there? Would you try to do in Pittsburgh what Kansas City does with Mahomes with any of those QBs?

I think our offense doesn't help any qb we have or had. It stifles them.

We all were told with Russ our Offense would open up. I see that same offense that I have seen for the last handful of seasons.

Sure. It gives us a good possibility to make the post season yearly. It doesn't give us a chance to do anything in the playoffs once we are there though.

I know. We are a few players away at a couple of positions.

I see a schematic issues. On both sides of the ball. What we do is limited. We have talent. Unfortunately our system limits them. My take anyway.

 

[xjx]

Tomlins system limits them.