Maybe i've been wrong...and hope

[stillwright]

Not making a direct comparison, but Pickett reminded me of Tebow in that both could lay a crap egg for 95% of the game and then pull a miracle out of their *** to get the last second win.

Now we saw what Ben did his last season. Canada's O for 3 quarters which didn't do much and then had like 7 4th quarter comebacks when they basically scrapped Canada's offense. I think the same went with Pickett to a degree. Pickett ran Canada's O for 3 quarters and then they HAD to be more aggressive in the 4th if they wanted to win.

 

[diver]

Of course, the players have to execute, and I'd give their role 40-50% of the responsibility of the outcome of games. In your example, sometimes coaches really are that bad. Coaches make mistakes that impact the outcome of games just as some players' mistakes change the outcome.

Before I heard that about Canada, I'd have said the players bare at least 90% of the responsibility for the outcome of games. Again. they play. Coaches do not throw, catch, tackle, block and run. They don't create or cause, or are guilty of turnovers. After hearing the Canada stuff, I'll drop it down to around 75%, because of all those things listed players do and not coaches. I still feel players are most responsible by quite a bit, but the Canada stats was a bit of an eye opener for me. I didn't like what I saw with Canada, but kind of let it go after seeing open receivers Pickett was missing, for example, when the "experts" would review the game.

 

[MT~Forged]

The running game was actually pretty good under Canada, especially considering teams constantly stacked the line against the Steelers. I tend to think that is why Tomlin kept Canada as long as he did, hoping the passing game would catch up, but it never did.

That's why I also think one can judge Kenny Pickett's play and lack of development only so much, as Canada was THAT bad. If Pickett ends up developing elsewhere, Tomlin's decisions regarding Canada will look even worse.

Just how much “development” is KP going to show sitting behind JH? His only hope is to get good press and wait till FA rolls around. Then he will get an opportunity somewhere. All with a wasted 2 year stint in Philly. He really screwed himself by not betting on himself in the QB competition In Pittsburgh. He should have used the signing of Wilson as motivation and the chance to earn his spot. After Canada was fired, he would have taken any KP “stink” with him. KP would have gotten a virtual “do over”. Stupid move.

 

[MT~Forged]

I might add, the he was definately the worst OC you have seen since the Merger. His output was the lowest since the merger, but also a lot of pre-merger.


Salute the nation

What is going to happen when the same turtle ball game plans show up again this year? I don’t care what all the KP “bashers” say, he was doing exactly what he was told to. Just because a player is open deep, doesn’t mean that KP had the authorization to go there. KP threw downfield in college, yet all of a sudden couldn’t do it in Pittsburgh? I will say it again, all he was allowed to do was throw it short and outside. Every other route was just window dressing in hopes it would open up the allowed throws. Hell even Ben did that until it was “fukit time” KP didn’t have the job security that Ben had, and it showed.

 

[Stewey]

Before I heard that about Canada, I'd have said the players bare at least 90% of the responsibility for the outcome of games. Again. they play. Coaches do not throw, catch, tackle, block and run. They don't create or cause, or are guilty of turnovers. After hearing the Canada stuff, I'll drop it down to around 75%, because of all those things listed players do and not coaches. I still feel players are most responsible by quite a bit, but the Canada stats was a bit of an eye opener for me. I didn't like what I saw with Canada, but kind of let it go after seeing open receivers Pickett was missing, for example, when the "experts" would review the game.

And by the time they get to the pro level players shouldn't need to be coached on how to tackle, catch, and block. Thats why they are called professionals and not beginners.

The mark of a great offense is knowing exactly what they are going to do and not being able to stop them.

 

[Poobah]

And by the time they get to the pro level players shouldn't need to be coached on how to tackle, catch, and block. Thats why they are called professionals and not beginners.

The mark of a great offense is knowing exactly what they are going to do and not being able to stop them.

They professionals, but they are not perfect. Players do come to the NFL with technical deficiencies that were never corrected in HS or College. How many guys do you see tackling with their head down? Still happens though it is much better than it used to be. How many guys still try to tackle with just the shoulder and fail to wrap up? I see it all the time. It is more complicated with blocks. Kid coming out of college may have never done a reach block or a fold block. Not every system uses the same blocking techniques. The techniques get much more refined at the Pro Level. Humans make mistakes. Humans pick up bad habits. Why are there pitching coaches and batting coaches for baseball and swing coaches for pro golfers? Because Humans are not perfect creatures and bad habits develop. I'm not saying they shouldn't have a certain level of skill when they get there, but it is unreasonable to assume they day they get their paycheck that they have perfect technique in all things. The coaching staff that does not watch and coach and teach such things should simply not be a coach. IMHO, watching and correcting technique is constant and a positional coaches primary function.

 

[MTC]

Before I heard that about Canada, I'd have said the players bare at least 90% of the responsibility for the outcome of games. Again. they play. Coaches do not throw, catch, tackle, block and run. They don't create or cause, or are guilty of turnovers. After hearing the Canada stuff, I'll drop it down to around 75%, because of all those things listed players do and not coaches. I still feel players are most responsible by quite a bit, but the Canada stats was a bit of an eye opener for me. I didn't like what I saw with Canada, but kind of let it go after seeing open receivers Pickett was missing, for example, when the "experts" would review the game.

The players are professional as well. They know the ins/outs/rules and nuances of the game. I’m sure they can scrap systems and improvise. Ben was always good at it.

Ben had a better arm than Tebow and Pickett to thrive off of it

 

[Confluence]

Bull-****. They said here you go Tim. You can’t beat us with your deep ball passing. Luck my ***. Ever heard of adjustments?
When what they were doing wasn’t working. It was quite evident. Early on. Luck. Man Oh Man. Yep. Great coaching.

Ike Taylor's game was the worst ever DB performance in any playoff game in NFL history, I recall reading....

 

[Drink IRON City]

What is going to happen when the same turtle ball game plans show up again this year? I don’t care what all the KP “bashers” say, he was doing exactly what he was told to. Just because a player is open deep, doesn’t mean that KP had the authorization to go there. KP threw downfield in college, yet all of a sudden couldn’t do it in Pittsburgh? I will say it again, all he was allowed to do was throw it short and outside. Every other route was just window dressing in hopes it would open up the allowed throws. Hell even Ben did that until it was “fukit time” KP didn’t have the job security that Ben had, and it showed.

I hear everything you are saying, but to be clear, I was talking about the OC Canada.

I’m pretty sure Smith will have way better numb ers then the O’Canada.


Salute the nation

 

[MT~Forged]

I hear everything you are saying, but to be clear, I was talking about the OC Canada.

I’m pretty sure Smith will have way better numb ers then the O’Canada.


Salute the nation

I personally don’t foresee any change in offensive philosophy. My only hope is that Smith's more capable of implementing Tomlin’s directives. Then again, I would love to see them trot out the same playbook and FINALLY kick Tomlin’s *** to the curb.

 

[stillwright]

Just how much “development” is KP going to show sitting behind JH? His only hope is to get good press and wait till FA rolls around. Then he will get an opportunity somewhere. All with a wasted 2 year stint in Philly. He really screwed himself by not betting on himself in the QB competition In Pittsburgh. He should have used the signing of Wilson as motivation and the chance to earn his spot. After Canada was fired, he would have taken any KP “stink” with him. KP would have gotten a virtual “do over”. Stupid move.

Maybe....he probably got tired of being lied to. Lost all faith and trust in our HC/Ownership because of it. Now he is away from all of that with a fresh start early on in his career. He went from the ultimate mediocre team in the NFL to one of the elite teams in the NFL. Maybe he will be better coached in Philly. Maybe he will grow and mature as a person and as a player while playing for a better team/organization than he would have in Pittsburgh. Time will tell I guess.

 

[SteelerFan448]

Maybe....he probably got tired of being lied to. Lost all faith and trust in our HC/Ownership because of it. Now he is away from all of that with a fresh start early on in his career. He went from the ultimate mediocre team in the NFL to one of the elite teams in the NFL. Maybe he will be better coached in Philly. Maybe he will grow and mature as a person and as a player while playing for a better team/organization than he would have in Pittsburgh. Time will tell I guess.

Are we still talking being lied to in professional sports? Unless you are a star, teams are always looking to find an upgrade.

 

[stuntmanmike]

Let me preface this by saying I have always held players more responsible for the outcome of games than coaches. Players do the...playing. Not coaches. I have always felt it is a convenient place for players (and at the lower level, parents) to hide if the player just doesn't have it physically or mentally. Blame the coaches.

But I listened to the Williamson thing he does this morning and he stated a number of facts concerning Matt Canada, and holy shiit. Over the first 4 games of last year. I'll just state two. Evidently, if the Steelers were in the gun, they passed 92% of the time on 1st down, if under center, they ran 85% of the time. It always seemed the other teams knew what was coming, they were on it so fast, and now there is factual proof of that. So I guess to a large degree it was the coaching!

But they still had winning records the last three years. It defies logic when you hear the numbers. Which means that maybe Austin is a better DC than he is given credit for, in light of some of the injuries they have has on that side of the ball over the years. But the reason for hope is offensively, they have nowhere to go but up, and if the defense plays well they may really have something.

This is usually true but in the NFL has reached a state of equilibrium where it comes down to coaching. I watch the 49ers a lot now that I live on the left coast and the 9ers really don’t out talent their opponents as much as they out coach them. KC too. For the Steelers to get to next level they need better coaching and maybe this will be the year the talent over comes mediocre coaching it’s hard to tell but it’s one or the other.

 

[stillwright]

Are we still talking being lied to in professional sports? Unless you are a star, teams are always looking to find an upgrade.

Lies are lies.

 

[SteelerFan448]

Lies are lies.

Throw more than 13 TDs in two years and he's still QB here.

 

[stillwright]

Throw more than 13 TDs in two years and he's still QB here.

Throw in a better OC and HC and you would have had more than 13. When your OC and HC tell you to play conservative and they game plan for you to play conservative.....because they want to rely on the Defense and running game....well 13 TD's is your end result.

 

[SteelerFan448]

Throw in a better OC and HC and you would have had more than 13. When your OC and HC tell you to play conservative and they game plan for you to play conservative.....because they want to rely on the Defense and running game....well 13 TD's is your end result.

To an extent...Canada was awful. However, Pickett's weaknesses in college were glaring in the NFL. Pickett also had more TDs in his final year at Pitt than his first four years combined, so it isn't like he was lighting it up in college either. I felt he was going to take time to develop, but his regression in year 2 was disappointing. His willingness to bail so easily was even more disappointing.

 

[Badcat]

I think you need to rethink your position…

1	Sun	September 10	1:00PM ET	boxscore	L		0-1		San Francisco 49ers	7	30	15	239	198	41	2	22	391	203	188	1	-13.55	-9.73	0.78
2	Mon	September 18	8:15PM ET	boxscore	W		1-1		Cleveland Browns	26	22	9	255	200	55	2	20	408	210	198	4	-16.63	19.51	2.81
3	Sun	September 24	8:20PM ET	boxscore	W		2-1	@	Las Vegas Raiders	23	18	17	333	228	105		19	362	293	69	3	5.43	3.82	0.12
4	Sun	October 1	1:00PM ET	boxscore	L		2-2	@	Houston Texans	6	30	12	225	111	114	1	24	451	312	139		-8.54	-15.66	2.59
5	Sun	October 8	1:00PM ET	boxscore	W		3-2		Baltimore Ravens	17	10	17	289	202	87	1	19	335	210	125	3	-5.08	16.12	-3.84
6									Bye Week
7	Sun	October 22	4:05PM ET	boxscore	W		4-2	@	Los Angeles Rams	24	17	17	300	214	86		19	354	219	135	1	4.14	-3.06	6.47
8	Sun	October 29	1:00PM ET	boxscore	L		4-3		Jacksonville Jaguars	10	20	17	261	191	70	2	20	377	271	106	3	-3.68	2.59	-2.01
9	Thu	November 2	8:15PM ET	boxscore	W		5-3		Tennessee Titans	20	16	22	326	160	166		23	340	235	105	1	10.92	-3.61	-3.77
10	Sun	November 12	1:00PM ET	boxscore	W		6-3		Green Bay Packers	23	19	21	324	119	205		17	399	283	116	2	7.06	-8.81	3.18
11	Sun	November 19	1:00PM ET	boxscore	L		6-4	@	Cleveland Browns	10	13	12	249	77	172		20	259	163	96	1	-6.04	6.18	-1.74
12	Sun	November 26	1:00PM ET	boxscore	W		7-4	@	Cincinnati Bengals	16	10	22	421	268	153	1	10	222	197	25	1	4.32	6.04	-3.05

Week 12, New coach, 421 yards...just one example...you should rethink your own.

 

[stillwright]

To an extent...Canada was awful. However, Pickett's weaknesses in college were glaring in the NFL. Pickett also had more TDs in his final year at Pitt than his first four years combined, so it isn't like he was lighting it up in college either. I felt he was going to take time to develop, but his regression in year 2 was disappointing. His willingness to bail so easily was even more disappointing.

Name any QB that would have done well in Canada's offense with what Tomlin wanted them doing? Hell....even Ben was restricted until 4th quarter and he sid his own thing.

 

[SteelerFan448]

Name any QB that would have done well in Canada's offense with what Tomlin wanted them doing? Hell....even Ben was restricted until 4th quarter and he sid his own thing.

A broken down Ben threw for 22 TDs in his final year, 9 more than Pickett threw for in 2 years. As bad as Canada was, it didn't excuse Pickett from running himself into pressure or missing open receivers.

 

[stillwright]

A broken down Ben threw for 22 TDs in his final year, 9 more than Pickett threw for in 2 years. As bad as Canada was, it didn't excuse Pickett from running himself into pressure or missing open receivers.

Again...Ben scrapped Canada's O and Tomlin's direction and did his own thing late in games. Seven fourth quarter come from behind wins that year. Players stated Ben was drawing up plays in the huddle. Using plays from prior years. Ben was Vet though. Picket followed orders. Ran the plays he was told the way he was told to run them. Now I am speculating here but I would say if picket was in an offense that let him open it up he would of had a bit more TD's. He was a good boy though. Did what his couches told him to do. Throw short and do not turn the ball over. All I am saying is under different direction Pickett most likely would have faired better stat wise. Nothing more.

 

[slashsteel]

Good debate. I think it is somewhere in between as it usually is with good debates. Some of this some of that. I think for Kenny to advance outside of Pittsburgh he will need to fix his deficiencies. Not that statistically he can’t improve outside of Canada. Otherwise he will stay consistently inconsistent.

 

[SteelerFan448]

Again...Ben scrapped Canada's O and Tomlin's direction and did his own thing late in games. Seven fourth quarter come from behind wins that year. Players stated Ben was drawing up plays in the huddle. Using plays from prior years. Ben was Vet though. Picket followed orders. Ran the plays he was told the way he was told to run them. Now I am speculating here but I would say if picket was in an offense that let him open it up he would of had a bit more TD's. He was a good boy though. Did what his couches told him to do. Throw short and do not turn the ball over. All I am saying is under different direction Pickett most likely would have faired better stat wise. Nothing more.

Again, I get some of this, but Pickett missed simple plays. Rudolph looked like a Pro Bowler the second he stepped into the starting lineup by comparison. Pickett's receivers were showing frustration and sulking since their QB couldn't get them the ball. His coaches told him to do a lot of things, but they didn't tell him to miss the simple plays. A different groups of coaches would've helped, but Pickett did very little to overcome his own faults.

 

[stillwright]

Again, I get some of this, but Pickett missed simple plays. Rudolph looked like a Pro Bowler the second he stepped into the starting lineup by comparison. Pickett's receivers were showing frustration and sulking since their QB couldn't get them the ball. His coaches told him to do a lot of things, but they didn't tell him to miss the simple plays. A different groups of coaches would've helped, but Pickett did very little to overcome his own faults.

Lol.....you mean right after Canada was fired and the offense went more aggressive(until or playoff game)? Kind of my point. And ALL QBs miss the easy ones. Rudolph has plenty of his own that is for sure. Smh

 

[Confluence]

A broken down Ben threw for 22 TDs in his final year, 9 more than Pickett threw for in 2 years. As bad as Canada was, it didn't excuse Pickett from running himself into pressure or missing open receivers.

Watch Pickett. Most of the time he didn't even scan the left half of the field.