New York Senate Passes Bill Legalizing Abortions Up to Birth

[CharlesDavenport]

I understand that is your opinion. We can debate that connection until the cows come home. But again, I don't like the ideology around here that "majority wins" on things you like and "Constitution protects the minority" on things you don't like.

Doesn't work that way.

Abortion can not be voted on. The laws that are being passed on both sides (Alabama and New York) are both going to be challenged in court. Both will likely NEVER actually go into effect until the judicial hearing conclude, which could be YEARS.

Personally, it's time for the Supreme Court to re-visit this because the latitude States are passing different abortion laws is too great. The chipping away at a so-called Constitution "right" via access and cost is going to be challenged. Something has to give. And one side needs a slap on the hands to get them back in line with how the Supreme Court views this subject.

I think its going to happen in the next 5 years. The laws being passed down south are blatantly against the verbiage in the Roe v. Wade decision. And the overreach of liberal states like New York needs clarification as well on "mother's health" laws.

We (the country) all need a bit of clarification on abortion in this country by the courts. And THEN we can let the states and majorities decide via their representative.

Where are you getting this business about the Constitution being there to protect the minority? It's there to protect individual rights, whether the individual is in the minority or majority.

 

[Tibs]

Abortion fails at every ballot box. The majority of Americans don't want it.

I see you've taken up a permanent residence down the rabbit hole.

A Pew Research Center poll from late last year found that 58% of Americans say abortion should be always or mostly legal, compared with 37% who say it should be always or mostly illegal. This mostly lines up with 2018 Gallup polling that discovered that 60% of Americans think first trimester abortions should generally be legal and 64% don't want Roe, which guaranteed the right to an abortion in the first trimester, to be overturned.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/235469/trimesters-key-abortion-views.aspx

As with all social and political issues, this is a highly controversial and debated topic, with multiple shades of gray. To proclaim that 'The majority of Americans don't want it,' is simply fiction and fantasy. Two areas you seem to be well versed in.

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

I see you've taken up a permanent residence down the rabbit hole.



As with all social and political issues, this is a highly controversial and debated topic, with multiple shades of gray. To proclaim that 'The majority of Americans don't want it,' is simply fiction and fantasy. Two areas you seem to be well versed in.

Depending on how you ask about abortion rights, Americans are either overwhelmingly in favor of them or they are split down the middle.

So if you're left a little confused about where Americans stand on abortion rights, that's understandable.

The clearest takeaway is that there are some Americans who are clearly on either side of the divide, while for many it isn't as clearly defined. How the question is phrased definitely matters. It's not entirely clear that Democrats or Republicans have the upper hand in the abortion debate.

Every single recent poll indicates that Americans are more likely to be in favor of abortion rights than not. A Pew Research Center poll from late last year found that 58% of Americans say abortion should be always or mostly legal, compared with 37% who say it should be always or mostly illegal. This mostly lines up with 2018 Gallup polling that discovered that 60% of Americans think first trimester abortions should generally be legal and 64% don't want Roe, which guaranteed the right to an abortion in the first trimester, to be overturned.

Indeed, anti-abortion ballot measures have at best a mixed history in recent years. Personhood ballot measures have gone down in defeat in many states. Even in the deep red state of West Virginia, an amendment that said women didn't have the right to abortion barely passed in 2018.

These data points might suggest Democrats and abortion rights activists have the upper hand in the abortion debate.

But other polling and Republicans' ability to continue passing anti-abortion laws suggest that it's not a clear-cut win.

At least part of the problem for Democrats and abortion rights activists has to do with something that dogs liberals in general. Many people will say they support liberal issues, while, at the same time, culturally identifying themselves with conservative causes and politicians who believe the opposite.

When asked whether they're "pro-choice" or "pro-life," Americans are much more divided. The same 2018 Gallup polling that discovered that 60% of Americans were for abortion rights in the first trimester found an even split between the 48% of Americans who called themselves pro-choice and the 48% of Americans who called themselves pro-life.

Another issue is for abortion rights activists nationwide is that it's not entirely clear what the about 35% of Americans who say abortion should "mostly be legal" mean by "mostly." Does that mean they believe abortion is a choice always left up to a woman and her doctor? Perhaps not.

When Gallup asked Americans about whether a first trimester abortion should be allowed for "any reason," support dropped from 60% to 45%. Now, obviously, "any reason" is the loosest definition. Still, it shows that even first trimester abortion support is subject to the wording of the question.

When asked whether abortions should be allowed for pregnancy resulting from "rape or incest," Americans' support goes up to 77%.

You can cite Pew, you can cite Gallup. Polls, especially of late, have been proven to be nothing more than biased instruments given that in some instances over 65% of those polled identify as Democrats. The polls themselves are bogus. The questions, as quoted, are misleading.

Take it to the ballot box. When Americans vote, their true beliefs come forward, not what they feel compelled to say in public for fear of how they may be viewed.

 

[Tibs]

When Americans vote, their true beliefs come forward, not what they feel compelled to say in public for fear of how they may be viewed.

You're saying enough people in America want to go straight for the jugular and repeal Roe vs. Wade. Have abortion banned throughout the United States. Force women into back alleys, like in the fifties and sixties. Force people - who can afford it - a trip abroad, or to an abortion boat docked at sea. Just ban abortions altogether, like they're doing down South.

That's what you'd like to see accomplished. You want to force your religious views right down the throat of each and every American. You don't give two ***** about the individual rights of women, be it your mom, your sister or your wife, or any woman who may choose to terminate a pregnancy.

Let's be clear on that, so we're on the same page.

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

You're saying enough people in America want to go straight for the jugular and repeal Roe vs. Wade.

Nope. But I would like to see it changed.

Have abortion banned throughout the United States.

Nope. I'd like to see limits put on it. I do have a significant problem with abortion used as a form of birth control. The facts (I posted them elsewhere) is that about 1% of abortions are due to rape and/or incest. The vast majority are performed because of things like "it will impact my career" and "I'm not ready to start a family yet." I.e., the overwhelming # of abortions are due to convenience.

That should change.

You want to force your religious views right down the throat of each and every American.

For me, it's not religious at all. It's called being a human being. My heart goes out to the babies. I consider it murder at the biological level. It has nothing to do with religion. I believe in life.

You don't give two ***** about the individual rights of women, be it your mom, your sister or your wife, or any woman who may choose to terminate a pregnancy.

Wrong. Women have rights, as do all humans...including their unborn. You clearly don't give a **** about babies or children. You'd stand and applaud at your daughter's first abortion, I assume, because by god she expressed her rights.

Let's be clear on that, so we're on the same page.

We will never be on the same page, I assure you. But perhaps we can be on the same page about this...abortions are not about rape and incest.

In 2004, the Guttmacher Institute anonymously surveyed 1,209 post-abortive women from nine different abortion clinics across the country. Of the women surveyed, 957 provided a main reason for having an abortion. This table lists each reason and the percentage of respondents who chose it.

<0.5%: Victim of Rape
3%: Fetal Health Problems
4%: Physical Health Problems
4%: Would interfere with eduction or career
7%: Not mature enough to raise a child
8%: Don't want to be a single mother
19%: Done having children
23%: Can't afford a baby
25%: Not ready for a child
6%: Other

The state of Florida records a reason for every abortion that occurs within its borders each year. In 2018, there were 70,083 abortions in Florida. This table lists each reason and the percentage of abortions that occurred because of it.

.0001%: Pregnancy resulted from an incestuous relationship
.001%: The woman was raped
.003%: The woman's life was endangered by the pregnancy
.01%: There was a serious fetus abnormality
.01%: The woman's physical health was threatened by the pregnancy
.02%: The woman's psychological health was threatened by the pregnancy
20.02%: The woman aborted for social or economic reasons
75.40%: No reason (elective)

And according to the Guttmacher Institute, the research arm of the nation’s leading abortion seller, Planned Parenthood:

At current rates, an estimated 1/4 of American women will have an abortion by the age of 45
About 15,000 abortions are attributed to rape and incest — representing 1.5 percent of all abortions.

 

[hamster]

You're saying enough people in America want to go straight for the jugular and repeal Roe vs. Wade. Have abortion banned throughout the United States. Force women into back alleys, like in the fifties and sixties. Force people - who can afford it - a trip abroad, or to an abortion boat docked at sea. Just ban abortions altogether, like they're doing down South.

That's what you'd like to see accomplished. You want to force your religious views right down the throat of each and every American. You don't give two ***** about the individual rights of women, be it your mom, your sister or your wife, or any woman who may choose to terminate a pregnancy.

Let's be clear on that, so we're on the same page.

There are ways of preventing pregnancy besides killing another human being.

 

[IndySteel]

Tibs and libtards of his ilk love that it’s legal to crush a baby’s skull with forceps in the womb and even after its been born and on the table. Despite the fact that the baby has a heartbeat, is living and growing with a nerve system that can feel pain. These “people” are the scum of the earth, right down there with Muslim terrorists. They are kin, who love each other and believe the same things.

 

[SteelerInLebanon]

You're saying enough people in America want to go straight for the jugular and repeal Roe vs. Wade. Have abortion banned throughout the United States. Force women into back alleys, like in the fifties and sixties. Force people - who can afford it - a trip abroad, or to an abortion boat docked at sea. Just ban abortions altogether, like they're doing down South.

That's what you'd like to see accomplished. You want to force your religious views right down the throat of each and every American. You don't give two ***** about the individual rights of women, be it your mom, your sister or your wife, or any woman who may choose to terminate a pregnancy.

Let's be clear on that, so we're on the same page.

First of all Repeal of Roe v Wade would not instantly ban abortions, all it would do is send the decision back to the individual states where some would ban some would not. I think it needs overturned or clarified. I am on the side of not banning them but like others have said work to eliminate the need for them in the first place to end this ugly argument that really is fighting over the symptom rather than the problem.

 

[ark steel]

It is illegal to crush a bald eagle's egg. It is not an eagle, it is just a clump of cells in a shell.

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

It is illegal to crush a bald eagle's egg. It is not an eagle, it is just a clump of cells in a shell.

Fixed it for you

You're saying enough people in America want to go straight for the jugular and repeal Eagle vs. Shell. Have bald eagle shell crushing banned throughout the United States. Force eagles into back alleys, like in the fifties and sixties. Force eagles - who can afford it - a trip abroad, or to an abortion boat docked at sea. Just ban eagle shell crushing altogether, like they're doing down South.

That's what you'd like to see accomplished. You want to force your religious views right down the throat of each and every American. You don't give two ***** about the individual rights of eagles, be it your mom's eagle, your sister's eagle or your eagle wife herself, or any eagle who may choose to terminate a pregnancy.

Let's be clear on that, so we're on the same page.

 

[Tibs]

Yeah, equating women - and women's rights - to bald eagles really helps strengthen your argument on abortion rights. Makes a compelling case, for sure.

 

[CharlesDavenport]

Yeah, equating women - and women's rights - to bald eagles really helps strengthen your argument on abortion rights. Makes a compelling case, for sure.

Along those lines, I agree that it is ridiculous to make crushing a baby's skull about women's rights.

 

[Sarge]

Let’s be clear. Abortion is not a right. Freedom of speech is a right. Abortion is a want in most cases. Sometimes it is a need, but as pointed out here, that is rare. Truly, this is a difficult issue for me. If you are not ready for a baby or cannot afford a baby, you probably shouldn’t have one. There is plenty of mostly reliable birth control out there. That said, you can be super cautious, do everything right and still end up pregnant. Regardless of how I feel personally, this really isn’t a black and white issue, and not likely to be solved anytime soon.

 

[Tibs]

Along those lines, I agree that it is ridiculous to make crushing a baby's skull about women's rights.

Sure, and along those lines you must be up in arms over the treatment of young children in Trump's border camps, which are by definition concentration camps, as AOC correctly stated. Can't find a stadium large enough to fit your moral outrage over this, I presume.

Four migrant toddlers hospitalized after time at US border facility: lawyers
https://thehill.com/latino/449829-four-migrant-toddlers-one-completely-unresponsive-hospitalized-after-lawyers-tour-of

Immigration attorneys said four toddlers, all under the age of 3, were hospitalized last week after spending time at a U.S. Border Patrol facility in McAllen, Texas.

Toby Gialluca, a Florida-based attorney, told HuffPost on Friday that the children, who have teenage parents or guardians, were feverish, coughing, vomiting and had diarrhea.

One 2-year-old’s eyes reportedly rolled to the back of her head and she was “completely unresponsive,” according to Gialluca.

Their immediate condition is unknown.

 

[CharlesDavenport]

Sure, and along those lines you must be up in arms over the treatment of young children in Trump's border camps, which are by definition concentration camps, as AOC correctly stated. Can't find a stadium large enough to fit your moral outrage over this, I presume.

Four migrant toddlers hospitalized after time at US border facility: lawyers
https://thehill.com/latino/449829-four-migrant-toddlers-one-completely-unresponsive-hospitalized-after-lawyers-tour-of

Your morphing into Trog with that pathetic odd thought pattern.

 

[Tibs]

And for those with their panties in a bunch over calling them concentration camps, blame the Catholics.

Don't look away from concentration camps at the border
https://www.ncronline.org/news/opinion/editorial-dont-look-away-concentration-camps-border

It's time to stop looking away and to start calling these "centers" or "facilities" what they really are: concentration camps.

A concentration camp involves "mass detention of civilians without trial," says the woman who literally wrote the book on the subject, Andrea Pitzer, author of One Long Night: A Global History of Concentration Camps.

The concentration camp system, which she traces to 1890s Cuba, introduces a wartime tactic into civil society, essentially declaring martial law, Pitzer told Esquire magazine. The United States used domestic concentration camps during World War II, when it forcibly relocated and incarcerated more than 100,000 citizens of Japanese descent.

Opposing concentration camps should be a pro-life priority. We cannot look away.

 

[Iron95]

Let’s be clear. Abortion is not a right. Freedom of speech is a right. Abortion is a want in most cases. Sometimes it is a need, but as pointed out here, that is rare. Truly, this is a difficult issue for me. If you are not ready for a baby or cannot afford a baby, you probably shouldn’t have one. There is plenty of mostly reliable birth control out there. That said, you can be super cautious, do everything right and still end up pregnant. Regardless of how I feel personally, this really isn’t a black and white issue, and not likely to be solved anytime soon.

My reply to this subject used to be that we dont really have the luxury to discuss moral issues with all of the other things that need to be fixed in this country. Now all of a sudden we have that luxury again. I am with you though. I am somewhere in the middle. But killing a new born baby is murder, even if there is something wrong with it. And if Tibs doesn't see that then he is one sick ****.

 

[Tibs]

Your morphing into Trog with that pathetic odd thought pattern.

Not at all. Just pointing out the breathtaking hypocrisy shown by most pro-lifers, who stop caring about the fetus the second he or she is born.

 

[Iron95]

Sure, and along those lines you must be up in arms over the treatment of young children in Trump's border camps, which are by definition concentration camps, as AOC correctly stated. Can't find a stadium large enough to fit your moral outrage over this, I presume.

Four migrant toddlers hospitalized after time at US border facility: lawyers
https://thehill.com/latino/449829-four-migrant-toddlers-one-completely-unresponsive-hospitalized-after-lawyers-tour-of

They are the exact same "boarder camps" that Obama used. Where was your outrage then? These people can leave ant time they want. They just cant come here.

 

[Tibs]

My reply to this subject used to be that we dont really have the luxury to discuss moral issues with all of the other things that need to be fixed in this country. Now all of a sudden we have that luxury again. I am with you though. I am somewhere in the middle. But killing a new born baby is murder, even if there is something wrong with it. And if Tibs doesn't see that then he is one sick ****.

I oppose abortion on moral grounds and think it should be avoided at all cost. It is an unspeakable tragedy for anyone to go through. Reluctantly, I do think that early trimester abortions should be legal, for those women who have no other choice. In any other case it would have to be a significant, life-threatening medical issue for either the mom or the baby. That's my take. I hate it, I hate even the thought of it, but understand that a woman should be allowed to make a choice like that if the situation warrants it. I will not force my moral or religious beliefs on others, neither should the government.

 

[Iron95]

I oppose abortion on moral grounds and think it should be avoided at all cost. It is an unspeakable tragedy for anyone to go through. Reluctantly, I do think that early trimester abortions should be legal, for those women who have no other choice. In any other case it would have to be a significant, life-threatening medical issue for either the mom or the baby. That's my take. I hate it, I hate even the thought of it, but understand that a woman should be allowed to make a choice like that if the situation warrants it. I will not force my moral or religious beliefs on others, neither should the government.

I agree with you. Now I feel sick.

 

[hamster]

Sure, and along those lines you must be up in arms over the treatment of young children in Trump's border camps, which are by definition concentration camps, as AOC correctly stated. Can't find a stadium large enough to fit your moral outrage over this, I presume.

People cross our borders illegally, bring illness with them, and Trump is somehow responsible?

Tibs, you used to be a rational thinker. Then something happened. I believe it was the election of Trump, You suspended rationality. Michael Avenatti was your savior, now it is that nitwit bartender.
Have you noticed the change? Maybe you need to talk to a professional.

 

[Tibs]

This is happening right now. Focus on the present. You can't change what happened years ago, but can do something now. Where is the moral outrage? Is this who we are as a Nation?

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">LATEST: Children, including infants, are being held in a filthy border station. Their clothes are soiled with mucus, feces and breast milk. No soap. No toothbrushes. Not enough food. Even the guards are wearing masks. <a href="https://t.co/q3R0ZMHpLP">https://t.co/q3R0ZMHpLP</a></p>— Caitlin Dickerson (@itscaitlinhd) <a href="https://twitter.com/itscaitlinhd/status/1142179738976509953?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 21, 2019</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Tibs]

Tibs, you used to be a rational thinker. Then something happened. I believe it was the election of Trump, You suspended rationality. Have you noticed the change? Maybe you need to talk to a professional.

Believe me when I say I think all of you Trump supporters need to have your heads examined. No shock to me that someone who (still) supports Trump finds those opposed to him to be irrational and crazy. I wear that as a badge of honor.

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

Sure, and along those lines you must be up in arms over the treatment of young children in Trump's border camps, which are by definition concentration camps, as AOC correctly stated. Can't find a stadium large enough to fit your moral outrage over this, I presume.

Four migrant toddlers hospitalized after time at US border facility: lawyers
https://thehill.com/latino/449829-four-migrant-toddlers-one-completely-unresponsive-hospitalized-after-lawyers-tour-of

AOC called them concentration camps, not detention camps Tibs, you lying shill. Another hero of yours, Ilhan Omar, supported her use of that very word.

And let's indeed have some moral outrage of the caging of children at the border. I remember you gasping and genuflecting in 2014 when under Obama kids were caged...at the border.

The king of selective outrage strikes again.