One out of 10, down

[CorpusDsteelers]

Is it safe to say archer returned punts better than Bryant?

 

[Gareth]

As long as he's done tracking my e-footprints and trolling me on other boards, I'm fine with the guy. He squirts a solid nugget out every now and then, and he's usually one of the first I listen to for Tennessee and other SEC scouting opinions. In fact, he nailed Jerod Mayo as a top pick before anyone else I saw, and unlike me, he correctly identified that Knowshon Moreno would be a mediocre RB.

And he often stumbles into being a helluva funny guy. Quite frankly, in many ways, this would be a lesser board without him.

So,

**** it is.

SDS won't be pleased.

 

[insaniti]

Is it safe to say archer returned punts better than Bryant?

No. It's safe to say that he fielded punts better than Bryant lol.

 

[Idioteque]

Yup, that's the extent of it. You claim that NEVER, EVER has a player like Dri Archer produced in the NFL. And then when you are proven wrong, you resort to saying "no, that guy is one inch taller" and ignore things like bigger hands and longer arms. You argument is essentially that no one sharing the exact genetic profile of Dri Archer (perhaps an Archer clone sent back in time) has ever produced in the NFL.

No.. What I've been saying is that McCluster, who is a good comparison for Archer, isn't that good. He's a middling offensive talent who has yet to make in impact at RB or WR, and the team that reached for him in the draft four years ago just let him sign elsewhere for peanuts. Do you consider that a good sign?

If he's the bright shining star template for Archer, then the pick sucked even worse than I had thought.

Any more insight on his injuries, or do you just want to admit you were talking out of your ***?

 

[Superman]

looks like the guy I would have chosen might be picking it up.

http://www.nj.com/eagles/index.ssf/...stant_analysis_from_final_preseason_game.html

Jaylen Watkins: The rookie cornerback has not had a strong preseason, struggling in coverage and missing some practice time. Watkins showed up in a big way on Thursday, however, laying down two big hits on the Jets' opening drive. Seeing the small cornerback get physical is a very positive sign for the Eagles.

 

[ark steel]

No.. What I've been saying is that McCluster, who is a good comparison for Archer, isn't that good. He's a middling offensive talent who has yet to make in impact at RB or WR, and the team that reached for him in the draft four years ago just let him sign elsewhere for peanuts. Do you consider that a good sign?

If he's the bright shining star template for Archer, then the pick sucked even worse than I had thought.

Any more insight on his injuries, or do you just want to admit you were talking out of your ***?

McCluster was taken 36th with Archer at 97th. A 61 draft spot change. We didn't reach in the 2nd for Archer, we took him with a very late 3rd round comp pick.

Looks like his Titans contract is worth up to $12m/3 years. Only $4.5m guaranteed, though.

 

[Idioteque]

McCluster was taken 36th with Archer at 97th. A 61 draft spot change. We didn't reach in the 2nd for Archer, we took him with a very late 3rd round comp pick.

Wasn't referring to draft status. I was answering about comparable veteran players, McCluster being far and away the closest comparison.

Looks like his Titans contract is worth up to $12m/3 years. Only $4.5m guaranteed, though.

The Chiefs, his ex-team, gave more money than that to Vance Walker. They're comfortable rolling with Junior Hemingway (?!) in McCluster's old slot role.

 

[Superman]

you cannot adequately state that the Chiefs were comfortable "rolling with Junior Hemingway" in McCluster's old role. That's really not fair to McCluster, Hemingway nor the Chiefs. We were not privvy to those contract negotiations between McCluster and the Chiefs.

That's similar to saying we're more comfortable with Lance Moore in the offense than Emmanuel Sanders.

 

[Idioteque]

you cannot adequately state that the Chiefs were comfortable "rolling with Junior Hemingway" in McCluster's old role. That's really not fair to McCluster, Hemingway nor the Chiefs. We were not privvy to those contract negotiations between McCluster and the Chiefs.

That's similar to saying we're more comfortable with Lance Moore in the offense than Emmanuel Sanders.

True, but the facts we have are that they let McCluster sign for peanuts elsewhere, paid more than that to a rotational journeyman DT, and elevated Hemingway into the McCluster role. Even with his big-time KR contributions, that's the value they assigned to him.

 

[Steelerfan]

Hey wait. I, for one, AM more comfortable with Lance Moore than Manny Sanders.

 

[keslerclan]

I don't tend to take anything football related 'personally' BUT to me, watching (evaluating) players at any level...is subjective.

If a majority of savvy, dedicated evaluators ever totally agreed on something, it would be the first time. Even so, evals are still often wrong on players.

When it comes to Jarvis, (minus the stenosis concerns), most evals had this guy as a stud, regardless of his lackluster athleticism displayed in his pre-draft workouts. Some saw these flags and declared him a bad prospect from the start. (in spite of the love he was getting from pro-scouts and paid evaluators) Many more defended him WITH the paid evaluators as reference. ALL THIS before he stepped on the field of play for a pro team. I would argue that his pro-level value had yet to be determined, even though I didn't like the pick. NOW...going into his 2nd season in the NFL...those who argued that his apparent deficiencies would limit his effectiveness as an OLB appear to be more right than wrong. The jury is still out BUT he would have to pull out a taser to get a QB or OT to drop in front of him as it looks right now.

Now moving on to this year's JJ, Dri Archer. (do we even have a thread on this guy?)

Once again (although NOT a top tier, sure fire, blue chip first round talent as JJ was on most boards), we have a player whose college production was enough to garner Heisman attention. Although I believe his 'production' didn't warrant this attention, his VALUE to his team certainly did. Once again the PAID evaluators pegged him to get drafted where we got him YET some saw his obvious size limitations and 'use' or 'lack of it' in college as a precursor to failure in the pros. He didn't have the terrible athleticism that JJ had but had obvious red flags elsewhere (mostly in regard to his size and lack of a comparative NFL player). As before with JJ, many bagged on him from the beginning citing these and other circumstances as the reason he would struggle to be effective in the pros. Others used the scouts and paid evaluators as a defense to these critics.

The reality is...as with JJ...we will see what he offers in value on the field this season. Making the 53-man roster is NOT a sure thing for most late 3rd/early 4th round prospects to start with, after all.
Where I differ with some respected evaluators who believe Archer as a failed pick with very little upside is the same as any other prospect. We all know he has a tough road ahead of him due to his size BUT some of the other criticisms are 'phantoms' to me.

For instance, he didn't return punts in college so therefore he has no experience: Well, game experience. He participated with the punt returners in practice his whole college career. Maybe he just was too valuable a commodity in the KST offense to risk him at yet another spot where he would likely be kicked away from?
He was very injury-prone: Hard to disagree BUT he was obviously able to play through his injuries (albeit limited). This is always a good thing with players. He rarely missed any games compared to most college players of any size.
He constantly fumbled: Again, tough to argue as a whole BUT like a lot of players...he was EITHER a fumbler or NOT depending on when you look. On top of this, a deeper analysis would show he was attributed with 3 fumbles which by college rule, should have been attributed to the team, not the player (poor laterals, muffs). His coaches said he had very sure hands and didn't consider him a fumble risk.
He has short arms and small hands: Again, compared to players in general BUT his arms are longer and hands are bigger than average for a player of his stature (although hard to find in the NFL).
He has little experience as a receiver and has a small catch radius and a poor natural catching ability: Hard to disagree with some of the evidence he put on tape BUT a closer look has him a better natural catcher than Martavius Bryant, IMO. Also, he was a pretty dependable 'return guy' and 'skill player' where usually being a poor 'handed' guy is a big liability. His full college tape shows he dropped a few he should have caught BUT also shows he made some good over the shoulder grabs too. It also shows he has a 'self-preservation' mode where he doesn't reach or try too hard for balls that might get a bigger guy killed. (may have been coached as well). His college practice resume is similar to what he is doing now. He would alternate practicing with the backs and receivers on different days as well as working on ST in both kick and punt return.

What I looked for is NOT the 'potential' to be what we might expect of a smallish, lower tiered star player BUT IF he showed the same potential to to overcome the obvious. In almost all respects, I saw that he showed the 'potential' to play without injury, to play at a high level without being a fumble risk and be a threat as a receiver (either at slot or out of the backfield). One only has to go as far as his 2012 tape to see the potential of all of these things. Sure, I'm GIVING him a pass on the other 2 years he was looking more like a risky player BUT he was playing with injury which he would NOT likely be asked to do IF he made it as a pro player.

ALL of these arguments can be found for both sides on either player. JJ has a year+ of on the field evidence of whether he has the tools to make it in the NFL. Archer doesn't yet...time will tell.

 

[Superman]

True, but the facts we have are that they let McCluster sign for peanuts elsewhere, paid more than that to a rotational journeyman DT, and elevated Hemingway into the McCluster role. Even with his big-time KR contributions, that's the value they assigned to him.

that's pretty much par for an Andy Reid team anyway. He puts a lot of value in his system. Not to say that McCluster is any adjective you can throw out to over-sensationalize his abilities, but Reid sees "X" player and knows his abilities and traits. He sees "Y" player and knows what that guy can do. He then either modifies his system or finds a better player. He doesn't keep squeezing round pegs into square holes. That's why the Eagles were so far under the cap for so many seasons and still able to field competitive teams.

Just more of the same.

 

[Vader]

keslerclan you make several observations but I don't see any facts to buttress those observations:

1. "For instance, he didn't return punts in college so therefore he has no experience: Well, game experience. He participated with the punt returners in practice his whole college career. Maybe he just was too valuable a commodity in the KST offense to risk him at yet another spot where he would likely be kicked away from?"

They never kicked to him as a KR. They kicked to him a few times as a PR and he did nothing. So if they kicked away from him on KR then why worry about kicking away from him on PR? This is just pure speculation. I'm sure J. Harrison practiced long snapping in practice as well... didn't turn out so well in a real game.

2. "He has short arms and small hands: Again, compared to players in general BUT his arms are longer and hands are bigger than average for a player of his stature (although hard to find in the NFL)."

Stats? How do you know this? I have no idea what the average size for a 5'7 guy's hands are, and my guess is that you don't either.

3. "He has little experience as a receiver and has a small catch radius and a poor natural catching ability: Hard to disagree with some of the evidence he put on tape BUT a closer look has him a better natural catcher than Martavius Bryant, IMO. Also, he was a pretty dependable 'return guy' and 'skill player' where usually being a poor 'handed' guy is a big liability. His full college tape shows he dropped a few he should have caught BUT also shows he made some good over the shoulder grabs too. It also shows he has a 'self-preservation' mode where he doesn't reach or try too hard for balls that might get a bigger guy killed. (may have been coached as well). His college practice resume is similar to what he is doing now. He would alternate practicing with the backs and receivers on different days as well as working on ST in both kick and punt return."

Natural catcher? Not sure what that means. Do you have stats for "natural" catching? How many "over the shoulder" catches did he drop or catch? Stats? I've also seen tape of him short arming catches as well in his "preserve" state. His coaches even said it was a mistake to put him at WR. The coaches were getting him ready for the NFL. So they worked him at PR even though they had no intentions of using him there on their team.

Right now we haven't seen anything. He hasn't take ONE real NFL snap. He's had 2 long pre-season catches where he was out in space. And despite the "If he ever gets loose nobody can catch him" mantra from the board he was caught both times. Other than that he has done nothing in the STs department and nothing in the RB dept. The rest of his catches are just catches around the LOS. Let's wait until the regular season to see what he can do against non-vanilla defenses and real NFL players.

 

[Idioteque]

Hard to say JJ "got love from pro scouts and evaluators." They let him drop into the back half of the first.

 

[keslerclan]

keslerclan you make several observations but I don't see any facts to buttress those observations: As I said Vader, facts are also subjective. Can he catch? Obviously he can or he wouldn't be playing on ST or be put in a position to catch in a real game, let alone practice. Is he good at it? Depends on the evaluator, IMO.

1. "For instance, he didn't return punts in college so therefore he has no experience: Well, game experience. He participated with the punt returners in practice his whole college career. Maybe he just was too valuable a commodity in the KST offense to risk him at yet another spot where he would likely be kicked away from?"

They never kicked to him as a KR. They kicked to him a few times as a PR and he did nothing. So if they kicked away from him on KR then why worry about kicking away from him on PR? This is just pure speculation. I'm sure J. Harrison practiced long snapping in practice as well... didn't turn out so well in a real game. There is that word "speculation"...I would say similar to "subjective". You might be 100% correct...but the actual evidence doesn't support any reasoning as to why he practiced returning punts all the time BUT was rarely used in game situations. My speculation is that he wasn't used for the same reasoning we don't want to use OUR BEST returner (Antonio Brown) on punt returns...he is too valuable to our offense. How many kicks/punts get returned for TDs by the best returners in the NFL per attempt? Not that many. Before Archer started running a historical average of them back, teams didn't kick away from him. Then again, he might field punts well but not be worth a **** at returning them? Why keep practicing with the return team is my question.

2. "He has short arms and small hands: Again, compared to players in general BUT his arms are longer and hands are bigger than average for a player of his stature (although hard to find in the NFL)."

Stats? How do you know this? I have no idea what the average size for a 5'7 guy's hands are, and my guess is that you don't either.
Well, without going into it deeper than it deserves...Dri, @ under 5'-8" had bigger hands than 14 of the 17 players under 5'-11" at the SeniorBowl AND 34 of the players had shorter arms. ALL but 3 of the 17 players under 5'-11" plus 17 more over 5'-11". He had longer arms than many players...ALL OF THEM taller than him. RBs, James White, 5'-9", 8 3/8"H, 28 5/8"A - Chris Sims, 5'-11 7/8", 8 1/4"H, 30 1/2"A, - L.Talieaferro, 6' 0 3/8", 8 1/2"H, 31 3/8"A (btw, Archer was measured at 5' 7 3/4", 8 7/8"H and 31"A)

3. "He has little experience as a receiver and has a small catch radius and a poor natural catching ability: Hard to disagree with some of the evidence he put on tape BUT a closer look has him a better natural catcher than Martavius Bryant, IMO. Also, he was a pretty dependable 'return guy' and 'skill player' where usually being a poor 'handed' guy is a big liability. His full college tape shows he dropped a few he should have caught BUT also shows he made some good over the shoulder grabs too. It also shows he has a 'self-preservation' mode where he doesn't reach or try too hard for balls that might get a bigger guy killed. (may have been coached as well). His college practice resume is similar to what he is doing now. He would alternate practicing with the backs and receivers on different days as well as working on ST in both kick and punt return."

Natural catcher? Not sure what that means. Do you have stats for "natural" catching? How many "over the shoulder" catches did he drop or catch? Stats? I've also seen tape of him short arming catches as well in his "preserve" state. His coaches even said it was a mistake to put him at WR. The coaches were getting him ready for the NFL. So they worked him at PR even though they had no intentions of using him there on their team. I don't think Archer is a natural pass catcher (consistently catching w hands/not using body to 'trap') BUT as I said, he looks about as good as Bryant (also not a natural "hands" catcher) but like Bryant, caught some difficult balls at times leading ME, IMO that he has the potential

Right now we haven't seen anything. He hasn't take ONE real NFL snap. He's had 2 long pre-season catches where he was out in space. And despite the "If he ever gets loose nobody can catch him" mantra from the board he was caught both times. Other than that he has done nothing in the STs department and nothing in the RB dept. The rest of his catches are just catches around the LOS. Let's wait until the regular season to see what he can do against non-vanilla defenses and real NFL players.[/QUOTE] I agree 100%!! As I said, it's all subjective (speculative) UNTIL we start to see it on an NFL field, IMO.

 

[Vader]

That is very difficult to read.

1. So he wasn't used in college to return punts because the coaches were afraid he'd get hurt. But somehow in the NFL he won't get hurt? I understand he was more important to his team in college than he will be to the Steelers but that kind of is the point. The coaches see him as a part time situational player. I don't draft those guys in the 3rd round. Also I know everyone says he should be considered a 4th rounder since he was at the end of the 3rd. But this was also the deepest draft Colbert said he had ever seen. So the talent was much more in this draft than last year. So in reality a late 3rd this year would be the equivalent of a high 3rd round pick last year according to Tombert. Also Hood was a very late 1st round pick. Why isn't he considered a 2nd rounder in a less deep draft? Does that sound better?

2. I don't get the hands size or long arms argument. Somehow him being 1" to 2" shorter is no big deal but him having 1/8" bigger hands than someone else is a big deal? Why? Everybody wanted to throw out the "small" argument because after all an 1" or 2" is about the same. But now 1/8" in hand size is a big deal? So what? You're also comparing this years draft class not previous classes or even the general public. It's an extremely small sample size. Also Chris Rainey had 9 1/2" hands. Which is a larger spread than Archer has over the other players in this draft. I just don't see the point.

3. I've never compared Archer to Bryant. I've never had much of an opinion on Bryant because he was a 4th round pick that has a big body and is the tall WR that Ben has wanted. I don't have a problem giving Ben what he wants since it is obvious that the OL can't run block and they are going to need to score over 24 PPG.

Yes, most of any of these arguments are speculation. My issue all along has been that Archer was a luxury pick when the Steelers need potential starters because they have no depth. After watching pre-season I'm not sure how anyone can argue that. They had to bring back Keisel, which I said would happen, because the DL is just not that good. They have no depth at OL, DL, CB or OLB. Archer may turn into a very good PR/ gadget play RB/WR. But he isn't going to be a great KR because he won't get the chance unless he goes to a team that plays against the Steelers.

 

[keslerclan]

THIS^^^ I agree Vader. I'm not making excuses for the guy. The pick surprised me as well. My defining what I have previously stated about hand size, arm length etc. is just that. He DOES in fact have larger than average hands and arms for a college football player as compared to other college football players, even at his own position (like he has one). Comparing him to the general public wouldn't have made much sense, IMO. I agree with most of what you have stated as well.

What I don't get is WHY was it so important to sign our Kicker, who likely wouldn't be signed for close to what he's getting now WHILE we have depth issues at other positions? We are IMO, terribly weak/thin at OL, CB, OLB and WR. We need to spend the money on guys who we need most, IMO. So maybe we lose the accuracy (anomaly maybe) in Suisham but get a NEW kicker who might be able to kick into the endzone once in a while? We very easily could have picked up a decent back-up at a few of the positions of greater need right?

Why draft a guy like Archer? At first i didn't get it. After I thought about it awhile...we have to replace the potential 16 TDs scored between Cotch and Sanders last year. Moore scored 2 last year. Can Wheaton score another 14 this year? Obviously we will get some production from a healthier Heath and "maybe" some more from RZ target Bryant? Where do we get the rest? Archer does have the ability to score under the right circumstances. Can he score more than Wheaton? I bet the FO is hoping to get some scoring from him. As far as becoming an all-pro? I doubt it. But how else do we get the points?

 

[Vader]

THIS^^^ I agree Vader. I'm not making excuses for the guy. The pick surprised me as well. My defining what I have previously stated about hand size, arm length etc. is just that. He DOES in fact have larger than average hands and arms for a college football player as compared to other college football players, even at his own position (like he has one). Comparing him to the general public wouldn't have made much sense, IMO. I agree with most of what you have stated as well.

What I don't get is WHY was it so important to sign our Kicker, who likely wouldn't be signed for close to what he's getting now WHILE we have depth issues at other positions? We are IMO, terribly weak/thin at OL, CB, OLB and WR. We need to spend the money on guys who we need most, IMO. So maybe we lose the accuracy (anomaly maybe) in Suisham but get a NEW kicker who might be able to kick into the endzone once in a while? We very easily could have picked up a decent back-up at a few of the positions of greater need right?

Why draft a guy like Archer? At first i didn't get it. After I thought about it awhile...we have to replace the potential 16 TDs scored between Cotch and Sanders last year. Moore scored 2 last year. Can Wheaton score another 14 this year? Obviously we will get some production from a healthier Heath and "maybe" some more from RZ target Bryant? Where do we get the rest? Archer does have the ability to score under the right circumstances. Can he score more than Wheaton? I bet the FO is hoping to get some scoring from him. As far as becoming an all-pro? I doubt it. But how else do we get the points?

I'm going to assume the Steelers believe in Wheaton. If they didn't then why not draft a real WR in the 3rd to push him? They know that KO returns are almost gone in today's NFL. I understand that they want to get Brown off the PR team. But they can't have it both ways. They can't argue that it isn't dangerous on the one hand and then say they are depending on Archer for X amount of TDs. I know they are trying to get quick easy TDs. Even if Archer becomes the next McCluster, that isn't enough to off set what they lost in Cotch and Sanders. McCluster has 9 TDs in 4 years.

IMHO this team is one injury away from being in scramble mode. Drafting a player in the 3rd round that doesn't even have the chance of changing that is bad drafting. Archer would have been a very good pick for a team like Seattle or Denver. They have their starters and some depth. They could use a pick on a guy like that to give them some extra speed and an additional weapon. The have the players to block for him. They have a WRs who can draw coverage. They have a defense that doesn't depend on the offense scoring a ton of points to win. They aren't one OL injury away from Mike Adams or Guy Whimper. Just my opinion on the issue.

 

[Drink IRON City]

I'm going to assume the Steelers believe in Wheaton. If they didn't then why not draft a real WR in the 3rd to push him? They know that KO returns are almost gone in today's NFL. I understand that they want to get Brown off the PR team. But they can't have it both ways. They can't argue that it isn't dangerous on the one hand and then say they are depending on Archer for X amount of TDs. I know they are trying to get quick easy TDs. Even if Archer becomes the next McCluster, that isn't enough to off set what they lost in Cotch and Sanders. McCluster has 9 TDs in 4 years.

IMHO this team is one injury away from being in scramble mode. Drafting a player in the 3rd round that doesn't even have the chance of changing that is bad drafting. Archer would have been a very good pick for a team like Seattle or Denver. They have their starters and some depth. They could use a pick on a guy like that to give them some extra speed and an additional weapon. The have the players to block for him. They have a WRs who can draw coverage. They have a defense that doesn't depend on the offense scoring a ton of points to win. They aren't one OL injury away from Mike Adams or Guy Whimper. Just my opinion on the issue.

I definitely hear what you are saying. If by some chance, Archer scores 1, 2, 3, 4, ....... touch downs, then what. How many does he have to score, to legitimize his being picked? Is 3 enough, how many rookies score three TDs? If Mclusters has 9 in 4yrs, 2.25 average and Archer scores 4, what then? What if Archer scores 3TD, 7-plays over 40yrds, is that enough? I know all is mute if he does nothing, but then all should be mute if he does all. His justification will come upon his production, or not.


Salute the nation

 

[Supersteeler]

I definitely hear what you are saying. If by some chance, Archer scores 1, 2, 3, 4, ....... touch downs, then what. How many does he have to score, to legitimize his being picked?

In my experience for the people who are on record as harsh critics of the pick, it will be always be one or two more than he scores needed to legitimize the pick and concede wrongness. If he scores 3, he would have had to score 4 to not be a bust. If he scores 4, the number will be 5. And so on.

 

[Franco]

To be worth the 3rd round pick Archer has to do a lot more than score 5 or 6 Tds in his rookie year. He is going to have to be good for 4 years PLUS get a second contract. The problem the Steelers have been having is getting their 2nd, 3rd and 4th round picks to produce and do well enough to get a second contract from the Steelers. Drafting a small gimmick player whose only asset is blazing speed he is already behind the 8 ball as no player his size has succeeded at RB in the NFL the last 30 years. He will get dinged up which will affect his speed and to think he has any skills to compensate for the loss of speed given his small stature is ridiculous.

 

[tapeANaspirin2it]

I definitely hear what you are saying. If by some chance, Archer scores 1, 2, 3, 4, ....... touch downs, then what. How many does he have to score, to legitimize his being picked? Is 3 enough, how many rookies score three TDs? If Mclusters has 9 in 4yrs, 2.25 average and Archer scores 4, what then? What if Archer scores 3TD, 7-plays over 40yrds, is that enough? I know all is mute if he does nothing, but then all should be mute if he does all. His justification will come upon his production, or not.


Salute the nation

What is easier to find, a role player who can score you 5 TDs or a quality CB?

i know it's the big thing in college, you design plays to "get a guy in space" and let him make plays. In college, that's a lot easier because defenses are much slower and the hash marks are wider which means you have a lot more open space. The OL is also allowed to block 3 yards downfield before the pass.

In the NFL, there is less open space because guys are faster, the hash marks are narrower and the OL must be within 1 yard of the LOS when the ball in thrown.

This means it is much harder to "get a guy in space". The Saints thought they would do that with Reggie Bush and they had only minor success with it. It derailed their offense as they became obsessed with trying to set him up in open field. The offense got better when they demoted Bush to pretty much a 3rd down back.

One last point. This is the NFL. I expect any halfway decent RB or WR should be able to make plays when you get them in space.

It's kind of like designing a blitz where a guy comes unblocked. If you could do that all the time then why bother drafting a pass rusher with a high pick? Anybody can have success when they are unblocked.

 

[Drink IRON City]

In my experience for the people who are on record as harsh critics of the pick, it will be always be one or two more than he scores needed to legitimize the pick and concede wrongness. If he scores 3, he would have had to score 4 to not be a bust. If he scores 4, the number will be 5. And so on.

I've got that one figured out Supersteeler Some here, actually root against the steelers, trying to prove themselves right. One guy, in the Archer thread, said he couldn't wait for Archer to fumble, just to see this board lite up. I just can't see how one could root against a player, for something as petty as that? Don't they realize, if a player is doing bad, thus the team could be suffering cause of that? I'm pulling for entire team, regardless of draft position, to do well, even the coaches.


Salute the nation

 

[nooneuno]

What is easier to find, a role player who can score you 5 TDs or a quality CB?

And what is the ratio of cb's drafted late 3rd round or later that become quality CB's compared to those that bust? You're acting like it is an absolute that you can get them there.

 

[Drink IRON City]

What is easier to find, a role player who can score you 5 TDs or a quality CB?

i know it's the big thing in college, you design plays to "get a guy in space" and let him make plays. In college, that's a lot easier because defenses are much slower and the hash marks are wider which means you have a lot more open space. The OL is also allowed to block 3 yards downfield before the pass.

In the NFL, there is less open space because guys are faster, the hash marks are narrower and the OL must be within 1 yard of the LOS when the ball in thrown.

This means it is much harder to "get a guy in space". The Saints thought they would do that with Reggie Bush and they had only minor success with it. It derailed their offense as they became obsessed with trying to set him up in open field. The offense got better when they demoted Bush to pretty much a 3rd down back.

One last point. This is the NFL. I expect any halfway decent RB or WR should be able to make plays when you get them in space.

It's kind of like designing a blitz where a guy comes unblocked. If you could do that all the time then why bother drafting a pass rusher with a high pick? Anybody can have success when they are unblocked.

I'm just asking, what justifies the pick? I'd think 4TDs and 7 plays over 40 yrds., should quiet the critics a little? "Franco" set the bar pretty high, i'm just wondering league wide, the percentage of 3rd rounders that could live up to his standards?



Salute the nation