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Reflecting on the Mapletron trade

Why select DJ to replace Chase if he wasn't one of the best WRs in the AFC? I didn't select him, the league thinks higher of DJ than our fans do.

Show me another vet X WR in this league that would play for DJ's salary at his production level.

A lot of haters forget the wow plays because they want to dwell on negative plays. Kind of like me with Edmunds, but I know how to give Eddie his props when he makes a great play and puts together his best 2 games as a Steeler in these past 2 weeks. Go rewatch the highlights from past Steeler games this year. Big first downs on 3rd down. Big catches along the sideline. An epic 2pt conversion. The guy is a reliable stick mover, and if he stayed off of the field last night when he banged his turf toe, we would not have won.

Yup, don't forget he's playing injured guys. 4 weeks with a hip and these past 2 with turf toe, one of the most painful injuries in sports that even Michael Irvin and Deion Sanders couldn't play with.
Replaced. He didn't make the Pro Bowl initially, he was a replacement. That's the only point I made.

I don't want to rewatch the games. When you get a chance, throw some highlight videos of Diontae Johnson "wow" catches.

Now, how many guys are near his level of salary that can put up similar numbers...well, a lot.

DJ Moore 62 rec 878 yards 7 TDs at $20.6 mil/yr
Keenan Allen 58 rec 650 yards 2 TDs (in only 9 games) at $20 mil/yr
Chris Godwin 98 rec 968 yards 3 TDs at $20 mil/yr
Amari Cooper 76 rec 1,109 yards 9 TDs at $20 mil/yr
Mike Williams 59 receptions for 863 yards 4 TDs (in only 12 games) at $20 mil/yr
Diontae Johnson 84 rec 844 yards 0 TDs at $18.4 mil/yr
Christian Kirk 78 rec 1,009 yards 7 TDs at $18 mil/yr
Tyler Lockett 80 rec 979 yards 8 TDs at $17.2 mil/yr
Mike Evans 77 rec 1,124 yards 6 TDs at $16.5 mil/yr

Brandin Cooks is having a down year, but has six 1,000 yard receiving seasons and averages over 5 TDs per year at $19.9 mil/yr.

How about some rookies?
Garrett Wilson 74 rec 1,014 yards 4 TDs
Chris Olave 67 rec 982 yards 3 TDs
Drake London 66 rec 746 yards 4 TDs

2021 rookies
Ja'Marr Chase 81 rec 1,455 yards 13 TDs
Jaylen Waddle 104 rec 1,015 yards 6 TDs
DeVonta Smith 64 rec 916 yards 5 TDs
Amon-Ra St. Brown 90 rec 912 yards 5 TDs
 
Stryker, thanks for our passionate defense of DJ.

You are correct, he is a good value for this price, performs a needed role, and mostly does well. I think that the lack of gushing respect, like you have, comes from SN that is remembering AB, JuJu's dropoff, Claypool's devolution, etc. and looking at DJ's errors -- because some are memorable -- and are attaching the disappointment in others in the WR room in years past. I really doubt that there is any way the Steelers would trade him, especially after dealing Claypool; maybe the Steelers drafted Pickens because they felt they needed to deal Claypool? If so, it was a great move, even if the team had other needs early in the last draft (OL/CB/ILB).

I think all would be very, very happy to see DJ become that more complete receiving star like AB was, or to even approach his stats and net positive contributions next year. The other stuff, like being a great teammate, taking a team friendly deal, etc. is great to hear and to reinforce.

But I have to ask one thing: could we ask him to run more north and less south?
 
There is a bit of an invented history there Stryker. Johnson did not take a home town discount. He was not a Free Agent. He took a bridge contract that put 20 some million in his pocket and still gives him a shot at a bigger payday in a couple years. He decided the risk of playing on his current contract or sitting out was too much of a risk ala Juju. So he hedged his bet and took his current value for a bridge contract with the one year left on his rookie deal.
 
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Let me get this straight...

You guys want to trade DJ for a 1st?

He's a #1 WR who is locked into a contract paying him 1/2 the maximum going rate for FA #1 WRs for the next 2 seasons.

He's the best WR at getting open in the league.

And you want to throw a question mark out there and strip your young QB of his most reliable offensive weapon?

Sure, trade DJ...if you want to see KP regress...

1. YES, hell, i’d even consider a 2nd
2. He is only a #1 on paper, so he is getting Paid what he is worth.
3. Getting open means squat, IF he catches the ball he runs backwards, but he drops a number at the most awful times.
4. ”Most reliable” me thinks thou dost protest too much. “Reliable“ wouldn’t even be one of the first 5 adjectives I would use to POSITIVELY identify him.
5. KP regressing without DJ is speculation at best, maybe his replacement is better at clutch times. This would also force the OC to use the much higher ceiling WR, George Pickens much more.
 
The issue is finding a guy that cheap worth a damn… do you really want the carcass of Joe flacco or Andy Dalton here?
I would take Dalton or Flacco every day and twice on Sunday for the SAME price as Mitch to be the B/U QB.
 
Stryker, thanks for our passionate defense of DJ.

You are correct, he is a good value for this price, performs a needed role, and mostly does well. I think that the lack of gushing respect, like you have, comes from SN that is remembering AB, JuJu's dropoff, Claypool's devolution, etc. and looking at DJ's errors -- because some are memorable -- and are attaching the disappointment in others in the WR room in years past. I really doubt that there is any way the Steelers would trade him, especially after dealing Claypool; maybe the Steelers drafted Pickens because they felt they needed to deal Claypool? If so, it was a great move, even if the team had other needs early in the last draft (OL/CB/ILB).

I think all would be very, very happy to see DJ become that more complete receiving star like AB was, or to even approach his stats and net positive contributions next year. The other stuff, like being a great teammate, taking a team friendly deal, etc. is great to hear and to reinforce.

But I have to ask one thing: could we ask him to run more north and less south?
DJ will never be half the WR that AB was before his meltdowns. That is not an attack on DJ, just that he is a good #2 WR with potential, IF he could ever learn the mental part of being a Pro.
 
For every drop or misplay DJ has, he has a wow play. Kid is cheap, reliable, and an excellent teammate who has bought into the team concept. Want to call DJ a diva? Sorry, that's a dead narrative. Positive words all the time about his teammates and coaches. Steeler Nation is always screaming for a guy to take a team discount. DJ is the only pro bowler who ever has. Doesn't complain about being severely underpaid and took this deal because in his own words "the grass isn't always greener". This guy has AB talent with Ward's team loyalty. The fact his jersey isn't a top seller in this fanbase will always befuddle me.
Kid is also 'bout to set a new NFL record for receptions in a single season without scoring a touchdown (84 and counting). The only thing reliable about DJ is him not being able to find the end zone. Kordell Stewart was a "pro bowler" as an alternate one time, too. So what?

This guy does not have AB talent. At the age of 26, AB led the league with 129 catches and 1698 yards while scoring 13 touchdowns. At the same age, your boy has 84 receptions for 844 yards and 0 touchdowns. Even in the twilight of his career, with teams other than the Steelers, Brown had only 2 drops with 91 receptions and 9 touchdowns. Your boy has had at least 5 drops in every season, including a whopping 13 on only 88 catches in 2020.

Once upon a time, I thought DJ would develop into the next AB, but I was sadly mistaken. You're still kidding yourself.
 
A bridge contract in your last season when lesser receivers are signing 23-25M salaries as FAs IS a home team discount.

Not sure where you're getting your salary numbers, but Spotrac has his cap hits solidly at:
Cap hits
2022 $7.6M
2023 $16.3M
2024 $15.8M

For this year none of those numbers touch his 7.6M.

I also don't have hours to put together film, but here's the highlights that made him a pro bowler last year. Of course his best numbers are with a HOF QB throwing to him and using him like AB:



Here's his 10 for 10 game wow play on 3rd and 6 goes east west around 3 defenders that all had a chance at him before the first down line, and he made them all miss.



And @topseed AB had a HOFer in his prime throwing him balls in his 4th year. This year DJ has Trubisky and a Rookie throwing him balls. You can see with Ben throwing him the ball in his highlights, that his entire route tree is available. This year we have 2 QBs that didn't play a down of NFL football last year. I didn't say he would be AB, but he is used like AB.

Here's my examples of the AB routes being utilized by Big Ben. I look at technique which is why I'm high on his ability to get open in the NFL:


Still you guys have the problem with a WR that has already had Pro Bowl and AP accolades. Not me...
 
Would we even be having this conversation on DJ if the Bears trajectory on wins was more North than South?

I would suggest not trading away starters or depth because the Bears suck.
 
Would we even be having this conversation on DJ if the Bears trajectory on wins was more North than South?

I would suggest not trading away starters or depth because the Bears suck.

I hear has Dave, but Claypuff is definitely bringing more value through the trade than had he stayed.

That is contingent on who and how well the draft pick developed.


Salute the nation
 
A bridge contract in your last season when lesser receivers are signing 23-25M salaries as FAs IS a home team discount.

Not sure where you're getting your salary numbers, but Spotrac has his cap hits solidly at:
Cap hits
2022 $7.6M
2023 $16.3M
2024 $15.8M

For this year none of those numbers touch his 7.6M.

I also don't have hours to put together film, but here's the highlights that made him a pro bowler last year. Of course his best numbers are with a HOF QB throwing to him and using him like AB:



Here's his 10 for 10 game wow play on 3rd and 6 goes east west around 3 defenders that all had a chance at him before the first down line, and he made them all miss.



And @topseed AB had a HOFer in his prime throwing him balls in his 4th year. This year DJ has Trubisky and a Rookie throwing him balls. You can see with Ben throwing him the ball in his highlights, that his entire route tree is available. This year we have 2 QBs that didn't play a down of NFL football last year. I didn't say he would be AB, but he is used like AB.

Here's my examples of the AB routes being utilized by Big Ben. I look at technique which is why I'm high on his ability to get open in the NFL:


Still you guys have the problem with a WR that has already had Pro Bowl and AP accolades. Not me...

Cant disagree with your point that his contract is nowhere near of those compared. Also I agree he is a reliable option for Pickett and one that gets open more than anyone else . Truth is that the play calling doesn't help him get YAC, slants are as rare as a blue moon and the previous lack of a running game didn't help open up things either. I do like DJ and think that with the Offense being so young he is practically the only vet skill player and would be a hard loss to the passing game to trade him right now while GP isn't fully developed. Bringing another reliable vet won't cost less than 10M and I doubt he would be more than a possession WR that doesn't offer DJs quickness.

Only If someone offered a late 1st round + a future 1st or a mid round 1st + a 2nd or 3rd I'd consider trading him, depending on who is available on the draft board.
 
I can't disagree with your reasoning as well. Lack of slants and posts have killed the ability for WRs to get the ball in space, in the middle of the field. It sucks to see great plays at the sideline with no chance for YAC yardage because they are already falling OOB. I will say both Trubisky and Pickett have the arm strength to deliver that sideline ball with no chance at an INT or pick 6. That is a great weapon, but how about an out and up?

If DJ were to be traded, it would have to be for multiple 1sts IMHO.
 
The issue is value over production. We have a pro bowler locked in for 2 more years.

Cap hits
2022 $7.6M
2023 $16.3M
2024 $15.8M

For every drop or misplay DJ has, he has a wow play. Kid is cheap, reliable, and an excellent teammate who has bought into the team concept. Want to call DJ a diva? Sorry, that's a dead narrative. Positive words all the time about his teammates and coaches. Steeler Nation is always screaming for a guy to take a team discount. DJ is the only pro bowler who ever has. Doesn't complain about being severely underpaid and took this deal because in his own words "the grass isn't always greener". This guy has AB talent with Ward's team loyalty. The fact his jersey isn't a top seller in this fanbase will always befuddle me.

I'll look at his film, as I said when we drafted DJ: Best route runner I'd ever seen drafted by us, and un blockable at the LOS in press. Now he's the top receiver at getting open on breaks in the league.

Let's go back to a WR the Steelers HAD TO HAVE in the first round because he beat all of Jerry Rice's records in college. We drafted Troy Edmunds who was a man among boys at a small college. Never had a season over 725yds, 5TDs, or 61 rec, and those were his rookie numbers. DJ has destroyed those numbers every year but his rookie season.

My point is all rookies are question marks, and I'm not getting rid of Kenny's top target for 2 1sts if it means grabbing someone who 'might' be better. We got rid of Claypool to give George a starting position, and he's not putting up Claypool numbers yet. i keep DJ, and don't forget, he was an All Pro his rookie season.

But let’s be honest here… he was a second team all pro punt returner… not a wr… I think you overvalue him as much as the rest of steelers fandom undervalues him… he is what he is, a non elite starting wr…. A low end 1 or an extremely good 2. The problem is that he isn’t a playmaker… he is a high volume production guy…

We aren’t proposing dumping him for nothing. There is a very specific situation where moving him makes sense.., this is a guy who is ok.. borderline pro bowl guy based on production, but who really doesn’t have elite size, elite speed, elite hands or elite YAC ability… his great ability is precise route running and the ability to disguise his routes.. which is fantastic, but imminently replaceable if you got the right guy…

Addison is bigger, probably faster.. definitely has better hands and yac ability… and get this … his route running is better than DJ coming out of college… and he already has chemistry with Pickett… this isn’t drafting Mims in the third and waiting two to three years for this guy to get to where DJ is now… for what we are doing Addison is plug and play…


Objectively DJ is worth between AJ Brown and Hollywood Brown… people here thinking that he would only bring back a third or second are undervaluing him… but asking for two firsts is too much…

I get that you like the guy, but I think you might be falling in that trap we all do where when arguing that a guy has more value against a popular opinion that he is worthless, you start overestimating his worth.

I definitely think that if the right team looking for a win now wr that they can sign long term made an offer, you can get a first and a mid for him… green bay comes to mind, but id keep an eye on the titans too.. that team is in cap hell and will have to cut Dupree and woods for sure, maybe cunningham and Tannehill might not be back… if they go full rebuild they will definitely keep their pick, but if they think they could reload and still make a run… well woods is post 30 and his production is subpar… and they just don’t have anyone else on that roster… DJ has two years left.. they could get him, push most of his salary into 2024, then renegotiate a longer term contract and push the bulk of the 2024 money into the future without having to worry about him aging out… hell if DJ got along better with Trabisky, Tennessee would be a logical landing spot for him as well.

On a side note, we could seriously make a run at at least three guys the **** are probably going to cut…
 
forget about Addison.
With how we've found gems at WR late in the draft, paired with needs at other positions, we won't take Addison. If he's on the board, expect a trade down. DJ, Pickens, Addison, CA3 and Miller would be a very nice WR corps next season, but its highly unlikey.

@SteelerFan448 - please do not mention Keenan Allen again. Dude makes DJ look like an Ironman Warrior. More fragile than a china doll under an elephant's foot.

I see no way we trade DJ. The only teams out there who might want Johnson would be Tennessee, New England, Atlanta, Carolina, Houston or Detroit (off the top of my head). Considering where those teams are, and the needs they have elsewhere as well, the draft capital would be too large. Its not like DJ is Davante Adams, but he's also not Albert Wilson. DJ is a very good WR, though not elite. Replaceable, but not one that we want to be put in a position to replace.
 
No he's took a 2 year extention, so that added 2 years to this season. I have the numbers in my previous post.

Also conditional picks are determined by a player's production and reliability, not the team's success.

What you are describing is a nice story and I'm glad it worked out for the Bengals, but drafting Washington after Rudy was a poor decision, as Washington did less with the snaps that he had, than any other receover we've ever allowed to start that long...

Also What is a #1 receiver. You're describing a deep threat who usually plays Z WR in our offense. Guys like Wallace, Plex, Holmes, Claypool, and now GP are Zs. Holmes is probably the only Z that ever played like a 1 target, (and Juju during his 2nd season). X WRs on this team have always been our #1 WR, #1 targeted player, and #1 option.

Are the rookie's going to be team players, buy into the system, and have a great work ethic? Who knows? But I do know I never have to worry about DJ being a Diva.
I was already corrected by someone earlier on the contractual years. I then did ask would you still not make that type of trade?

Not true. Rare but team success has been a determining factor in conditional future draft picks for a trade.

I am not sure how you can say that. In 2019 James Washington lead the Steelers in receiving yards all while having 12 fewer targets than DJ. After that his snaps and targets did decrease significantly but if you do the math they equaled out to similar production as DJ per opportunity. I think Washington got in Tomlin's doghouse and once in that doghouse you don't get out. I have my theories on how you get in that house and it is not football related.

I guess my definition of a teams #1 receiver would be who gets the majority of your snap count and targets for your receiving core. Lazy way to determine is who's on the field during your single receiver sets.

The draft is a crap shoot. It would be a calculated risk. DJ is a team player, seems to work hard, and is an all around good person. Nothing wrong with keeping him. But is he a true #1 receiver?
 
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I was already corrected by someone earlier on the contractual years. I then did ask would you still not make that type of trade?

Not true. Rare but team success has been a determining factor in conditional future draft picks for a trade.

I am not sure how you can say that. In 2019 James Washington lead the Steelers in receiving yards all while having 12 fewer targets than DJ. After that his snaps and targets did decrease significantly but if you do the math they equaled out to similar production as DJ per opportunity. I think Washington got in Tomlin's doghouse and once in that doghouse you don't get out. I have my theories on how you get in that house and it is not football related.

I guess my definition of a teams #1 receiver would be who gets the majority of your snap count and targets for your receiving core. Lazy way to determine is who's on the field during your single receiver sets.

The draft is a crap shoot. It would be a calculated risk. DJ is a team player, seems to work hard, and is an all around good person. Nothing wrong with keeping him. But is he a true #1 receiver?
I doubt that either DJ or his agent believe this or they would not have agreed to the Steeler-friendly deal last offseason.
 
I doubt that either DJ or his agent believe this or they would not have agreed to the Steeler-friendly deal last offseason.
So if he's not a #1 receiver, wouldn't you at least listen to offers especially if it included a first round pick?
 
Stryker wrote: A bridge contract in your last season when lesser receivers are signing 23-25M salaries as FAs IS a home team discount.

I Couldn't agree less. A bridge contract is a situation where the team has leverage (hold last year of contract). And the player holds leverage (can hold out, can make it through the season, can make it ugly). The parties cannot agree on long term deal because frankly DJ is inconsistent. So they find a midpoint where player gets his current market value, guaranteed cash minus situation of another year under contract (doesn't have to worry about injury) and the team gets a good deal in the short term. Hometown discount is the guy will play for less than market value because he does not want to uproot for 20-30% more.
 
I like DJ. I think he is fairly paid. Like his production on the field. But if another team offers me a 1st round draft pick for him, I take it.
We have way to many holes to fill not to. and I get losing him would open up another hole but think we can draft a WR or puck up a decent one in free agency
 
AB had a HOFer in his prime throwing him balls in his 4th year. This year DJ has Trubisky and a Rookie throwing him balls. You can see with Ben throwing him the ball in his highlights, that his entire route tree is available. This year we have 2 QBs that didn't play a down of NFL football last year. I didn't say he would be AB, but he is used like AB.

Still you guys have the problem with a WR that has already had Pro Bowl and AP accolades. Not me...
No, but you said DJ had AB talent. You can show all the highlight clips you want, but the guy does not have AB talent. AB made tough catches look easy. DJ makes easy catches look tough.

In 15 games as a #3 receiver at the age of 32 and 33, AB posted more receptions (87 vs 84), more yards (1028 vs 844), more touchdowns (8 vs 0), and less drops (2 vs 5) than Johnson has as a "#1" in his prime. And those Brown numbers, on about a 58% snap count, are still comparable or better than what DJ managed in his best season (107,1161, 8, and 13 drops) WITH Ben in 2020.

There is no comparison. I'd take a #1 for DJ in a heartbeat. Expecting two #1 picks for the guy is just ridiculous.
 
I Couldn't agree less. A bridge contract is a situation where the team has leverage (hold last year of contract). And the player holds leverage (can hold out, can make it through the season, can make it ugly). The parties cannot agree on long term deal because frankly DJ is inconsistent. So they find a midpoint where player gets his current market value, guaranteed cash minus situation of another year under contract (doesn't have to worry about injury) and the team gets a good deal in the short term. Hometown discount is the guy will play for less than market value because he does not want to uproot for 20-30% more.
Where are Watt and Fitz' "Home team discounts" with their bridge contracts? Both were given the highest contracts at their positions with a year left on their contracts.

DJ took an EXTREME discount.
 
No, but you said DJ had AB talent. You can show all the highlight clips you want, but the guy does not have AB talent. AB made tough catches look easy. DJ makes easy catches look tough.

In 15 games as a #3 receiver at the age of 32 and 33, AB posted more receptions (87 vs 84), more yards (1028 vs 844), more touchdowns (8 vs 0), and less drops (2 vs 5) than Johnson has as a "#1" in his prime. And those Brown numbers, on about a 58% snap count, are still comparable or better than what DJ managed in his best season (107,1161, 8, and 13 drops) WITH Ben in 2020.

There is no comparison. I'd take a #1 for DJ in a heartbeat. Expecting two #1 picks for the guy is just ridiculous.
Like I said, AB had a HOF QB in his prime throwing him balls. Remember the games AB played in when Ben wasn't the QB? He disappeared. And DJ has had solid seasons with Duck and Rudolph as a rookie starter, and is doing better than any year AB had outside of pittsburgh with 2QBs that never played an NFL down in 2021.

How was AB's production the same 3 years in the league with the best QB ever Tom Brady throwing to him? Well below DJ's production.
 
But let’s be honest here… he was a second team all pro punt returner… not a wr… I think you overvalue him as much as the rest of steelers fandom undervalues him… he is what he is, a non elite starting wr…. A low end 1 or an extremely good 2. The problem is that he isn’t a playmaker… he is a high volume production guy…

We aren’t proposing dumping him for nothing. There is a very specific situation where moving him makes sense.., this is a guy who is ok.. borderline pro bowl guy based on production, but who really doesn’t have elite size, elite speed, elite hands or elite YAC ability… his great ability is precise route running and the ability to disguise his routes.. which is fantastic, but imminently replaceable if you got the right guy…

Addison is bigger, probably faster.. definitely has better hands and yac ability… and get this … his route running is better than DJ coming out of college… and he already has chemistry with Pickett… this isn’t drafting Mims in the third and waiting two to three years for this guy to get to where DJ is now… for what we are doing Addison is plug and play…


Objectively DJ is worth between AJ Brown and Hollywood Brown… people here thinking that he would only bring back a third or second are undervaluing him… but asking for two firsts is too much…

I get that you like the guy, but I think you might be falling in that trap we all do where when arguing that a guy has more value against a popular opinion that he is worthless, you start overestimating his worth.

I definitely think that if the right team looking for a win now wr that they can sign long term made an offer, you can get a first and a mid for him… green bay comes to mind, but id keep an eye on the titans too.. that team is in cap hell and will have to cut Dupree and woods for sure, maybe cunningham and Tannehill might not be back… if they go full rebuild they will definitely keep their pick, but if they think they could reload and still make a run… well woods is post 30 and his production is subpar… and they just don’t have anyone else on that roster… DJ has two years left.. they could get him, push most of his salary into 2024, then renegotiate a longer term contract and push the bulk of the 2024 money into the future without having to worry about him aging out… hell if DJ got along better with Trabisky, Tennessee would be a logical landing spot for him as well.

On a side note, we could seriously make a run at at least three guys the **** are probably going to cut…
Same with AB starting his career as a Pro Bowl returner before earning pro bowls as a WR, which DJ earned before AB career wise.

The way you are devaluing the way DJ gets open, is something any team in the league would love to have. His route running is elite. He breaks ankles on cuts the way a great point guard does in basketball.

And still I like the story of Addison being reunited with KP, but it's a huge question mark. How is the rookie going to react to playing in the NFL, how long will it take him to learn the system? Are they going to stay healthy and play banged up? I already know the answers for DJ, to say any rookie is going to be great can't be proven. Also it's not smart from a business perspective to trade your top WR the same season you traded your #2.

I know I'm asking a high price, but I'm pretty sure the Steelers wouldn't look to move him for much less.

If you think DJ is worthless, you can't evaluate WR talent. This is the only position I am confident in evaluating, and I've been spot on for every receiver we drafted.

I'd be all for any of those players if cut!
 
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