Rod Woodson says Ben isn't a hall of fame QB

[Vader]

This guy has lost more playoff games than he has won, that is important, I think, but you may not.

Not sure what you are arguing here. Moon has a 3-7 playoff record with 0, none, zilch AFCC game victories. Marino was 8-10 in the playoffs. Dan Fouts (one of the best QBs I've ever seen play) had a 3-4 playoff record. If playoff wins are the key then Ben is a first ballot HOF QB.

 

[insaniti]

So with your logic, his completions don't count cause the team blocks for him, the center hands him the ball the wide out catches it, whats left. It is a team sport all of those things must be considered. He has also been playing longer than Ben so comparisons based on their totals are not real accurate at this time. This guy has lost more playoff games than he has won, that is important, I think, but you may not.

You're missing one MAJOR point, Peyton doesn't play on the defensive side of the ball, he doesn't play special teams... Both units have been the reason for some of "Peyton's" playoff losses. For example, it wasn't Peyton that missed the FG against us in '04, that was his "idiot kicker" Vanderkjetekjrekjethjact. Peyton didn't misjudge a wobbly duck of a hail mary against the Ravens a few years back, that was Denver's secondary. How do you fault a player that wasn't on the field for either one of those plays for those losses? You can't. Well I guess YOU can...

 

[Punxsutawney]

Moon was on some good offensive teams. However he did nothing in the playoffs. Like I said, people jump back and forth to try to keep Ben out of the HOF. How in the hell can Moon be in with a 102-101 record in the regular season and a 3-7 playoff record while never winning anything? Just stats on a team that let him air it out all the time obviously because they were behind a lot. He was on a team that NEVER won over 11 games and only won 11 once. He had 2 years of winning double digits... 2 out of 16 ******* years. If Ben had the same W/L record and playoff let downs you think he'd be in the HOF? Hell Ben has 2 SB wins, a 10-4 playoff record, almost 50 games over .500 regular season record and over 34,000 yards all on a team that was run first for several years. If Warren Moon is in then Ben should be a 1st ballot HOFer.

How many games would Ben have won on Moon's teams?

Again, you want to excessively weigh the win/loss record of a QB when assessing his legacy.

Moon is widely regarded as one of the best passers of all time. How many more games could he have won having the likes of Randle El throwing championship clinching TDs and the likes of James Harrison and Troy Polamalu having game-altering TDs off INTs in the post season? It is something to contemplate.

 

[CoolieMan]

If Ben never throws another pass, he would still make the Hall...given a few more seasons to accumulate more stats and hopefully another Ring or two and he is a no doubt 1st ballet guy

 

[Vader]

How many games would Ben have won on Moon's teams?

Again, you want to excessively weigh the win/loss record of a QB when assessing his legacy.

Moon is widely regarded as one of the best passers of all time. How many more games could he have won having the likes of Randle El throwing championship clinching TDs and the likes of James Harrison and Troy Polamalu having game-altering TDs off INTs in the post season? It is something to contemplate.

Then why isn't Vinny Testaverde in the HOF? Or Drew Bledsoe? How about Kerry Collins? All of them have tons of yards. So why are they left out? You realize that Testaverde is only 1700 yards behind Moon? Since we can't count wins/ loses or playoff records then Testaverde should be in the HOF right? He has more yards than Montana or Fouts.

The fact is that the HOF isn't for great players. It's for players with numbers. Moon played in a wide open "run and shoot" system. He had great numbers but he was not a great QB. The team went the way the offense went by design. Ben could have a lot better numbers (and less SBs) if he played in a wide open system. That's why Ben should be in the HOF when it is time. Yes, he didn't play great in 2 of his 3 SBs... but I'll take that over playing so poorly you couldn't make it to start with.

 

[Stryker]

Didn't Interceptaverde also set the career record for interceptions? Loved him in the orange bowl, and loved him as a Raven. Drew Bledsoe should be an HOFer just for giving his job to Brady.

 

[south dakota STEEL]

Moon threw a nice ball...tight spiral.

that's why he should be in.

 

[insaniti]

Didn't Interceptaverde also set the career record for interceptions? Loved him in the orange bowl, and loved him as a Raven. Drew Bledsoe should be an HOFer just for giving his job to Brady.

Brett Favre owns that record, by quite a few I might add.

 

[Drink IRON City]

Brett Favre owns that record, by quite a long way.

Brett also has the record for MOST Pee Pee texts, by a short way!


Salute the nation

 

[Wingman]

Brett also has the record for MOST Pee Pee texts, by a short way!


Salute the nation

I here the charges that were not pursued were assault with a worthless instrument.

 

[Wingman]

Not sure what you are arguing here. Moon has a 3-7 playoff record with 0, none, zilch AFCC game victories. Marino was 8-10 in the playoffs. Dan Fouts (one of the best QBs I've ever seen play) had a 3-4 playoff record. If playoff wins are the key then Ben is a first ballot HOF QB.

I do not agree with all the folks that have been chosen for the hall. And your response illustrates my opinion on the matter quite well. Your hall of fame players used above did not due well in the playoffs and I think that is a very important issue for the player most responsible for leading his offense. Those guys you listed were very good players no question there. I would not have placed them in the hall based on their playoff record. There are players at the position that did much better in the big games and are in the hall, beating the best in games that matter the most is a sign of greatness and should be looked at as such. I think there are way too many qbs in the hall. Your examples illustrate that very well. My standards for induction into the hall maybe different than what is the norm but there are several players that played in different eras and won multiple championships that is what makes a qb a hall of fame worthy player in my mind. Not he tosses a nice football in games that don't really matter. Or gee he got 450 yards but came up 2 points shy at the end.

I just have a different view of what should be in than the media folks that make the choices. There are also a much greater number of qbs in the hall than the other positions as well.

 

[Vader]

I do not agree with all the folks that have been chosen for the hall. And your response illustrates my opinion on the matter quite well. Your hall of fame players used above did not due well in the playoffs and I think that is a very important issue for the player most responsible for leading his offense. Those guys you listed were very good players no question there. I would not have placed them in the hall based on their playoff record. There are players at the position that did much better in the big games and are in the hall, beating the best in games that matter the most is a sign of greatness and should be looked at as such. I think there are way too many qbs in the hall. Your examples illustrate that very well. My standards for induction into the hall maybe different than what is the norm but there are several players that played in different eras and won multiple championships that is what makes a qb a hall of fame worthy player in my mind. Not he tosses a nice football in games that don't really matter. Or gee he got 450 yards but came up 2 points shy at the end.

I just have a different view of what should be in than the media folks that make the choices. There are also a much greater number of qbs in the hall than the other positions as well.

The boat has left the dock. They've already set the bar. QBs are always going to be looked at first. That's just the way it is. That's why Ben should be in the HOF when he retires. He has better playoff numbers than half the QBs in the HOF and he'll have the regular season stats as well.

 

[TeaFagger]

I'm hearing what you are saying. Thats the crack head response. I know its all under the table, but I still would like to see something of a "price to pay", second ballot in vote. If the Ben Rothlesburger behavior counts, then the spy gate should be accountable also.




I'm not doubting the "he is in" at all, just would like to see some accountability on the spy-gate. Do you remember Brady the "dick smoker" pressing charges on the homeless guy? Turns out the homeless rummaged through tommy's garbage, found and hawked something. Tommy boy pressed charges. He acted like the garbage wasn't garbage and the item was of value. Why the F_ _ K, didn't tommy just give the dude a couple (&100.00) bucks and send him on his way?



Salute the nation

lol the only time you'll see a homeless person defended on this board.

 

[AggieSteel]

I do not agree with all the folks that have been chosen for the hall. And your response illustrates my opinion on the matter quite well. Your hall of fame players used above did not due well in the playoffs and I think that is a very important issue for the player most responsible for leading his offense. Those guys you listed were very good players no question there. I would not have placed them in the hall based on their playoff record. There are players at the position that did much better in the big games and are in the hall, beating the best in games that matter the most is a sign of greatness and should be looked at as such. I think there are way too many qbs in the hall. Your examples illustrate that very well. My standards for induction into the hall maybe different than what is the norm but there are several players that played in different eras and won multiple championships that is what makes a qb a hall of fame worthy player in my mind. Not he tosses a nice football in games that don't really matter. Or gee he got 450 yards but came up 2 points shy at the end.

I just have a different view of what should be in than the media folks that make the choices. There are also a much greater number of qbs in the hall than the other positions as well.

When it comes to players already in, your opinion doesn't matter. They're in because the people entrusted to decide who gets in decided they should be in. So any comparisons between them and current players are perfectly valid to determine if one belongs in the Hall, and it is no less so just because you have an opinion on the matter.

 

[SteelerSask2]

Unless he wins another Super Bowl Ben will not get into the HOF or will have a substantial wait. And it isn't because he doesn't deserve it or even his brushes with the law. There is simply something about Ben Roethlisberger that is incredibly polarizing. I think he has a bad reputation maybe as a person among the players and the media. He was considered the 31 st best player in the NFL. Why? Because he simply is not well liked. Antonio Brown was higher. I'm pretty sure some of Peyton Manning and Tom Brady's receivers do well for themselves too. But they would NEVER be rated higher than their qb. EVER. If he wins a sB it becomes about stats. If he threw 30 tds and 5000 yds it would become about wins. They just don't like the guy. Period. Love to see him win the third and jam it right up Brady's ***. But then they would say Brady had one more AFC champ. He can't win.

 

[Punxsutawney]

Unless he wins another Super Bowl Ben will not get into the HOF or will have a substantial wait. And it isn't because he doesn't deserve it or even his brushes with the law. There is simply something about Ben Roethlisberger that is incredibly polarizing. I think he has a bad reputation maybe as a person among the players and the media. He was considered the 31 st best player in the NFL. Why? Because he simply is not well liked. Antonio Brown was higher. I'm pretty sure some of Peyton Manning and Tom Brady's receivers do well for themselves too. But they would NEVER be rated higher than their qb. EVER. If he wins a sB it becomes about stats. If he threw 30 tds and 5000 yds it would become about wins. They just don't like the guy. Period. Love to see him win the third and jam it right up Brady's ***. But then they would say Brady had one more AFC champ. He can't win.

Much of him not being liked in the league and sports media is his own doing and the issues preceded the rape allegations.

It seems he has lightened up since settling down and starting a family, but he was a first class ******* for a long time.

 

[Vader]

Much of him not being liked in the league and sports media is his own doing and the issues preceded the rape allegations.

It seems he has lightened up since settling down and starting a family, but he was a first class ******* for a long time.

That shouldn't play any part in the voting. Hell Marino is still an *******. So what? Brady is a mangina and one of the biggest ******* to ever dawn a uniform. Joe Namath has been a drunken womanizer since he started high school.

Also Ben has never been charged with anything. Just going by the numbers he should be in when he retires.

 

[insaniti]

Ben was ranked 31st in the league by the fans, it wasn't a list compiled by "experts" or by the people voting for the HOF, it was a fans list. That entire list is filled with overrated players and quite a few underrated players. The players and coaches have a much different opinion of Ben, as I'm sure the HOF voters do as well.

 

[SteelerSask2]

The top 100 wasn't fan generated it was voted by the players. Everything that you would ever need to know about Ben Roethlisberger, the media and the league occurred at the end of the Super Bowl when they gave the MVP to Santonio Holmes. If that had been Peyton, Eli, Brady or Brees there is no way they don't get the MVP. NONE.
ELI Mannings MVP stat line 19/34 255 7.5 2 1 3-8 76.5
Ben's non-MVP stat line 21/30 256 8.5 1 1 3-22 47.4
Now I don't really know why there is a 30 point difference in passer rating, but those are essentially the same passing lines. I believe Manning fumbled 2 times too but they were both recovered by the offense.

 

[Ron Burgundy]

Ben was ranked 31st in the league by the fans, it wasn't a list compiled by "experts" or by the people voting for the HOF, it was a fans list. That entire list is filled with overrated players and quite a few underrated players. The players and coaches have a much different opinion of Ben, as I'm sure the HOF voters do as well.

Only one QB with multiple SB wins is not in the HOF (Jim Plunkett).

 

[Drink IRON City]

Only one QB with multiple SB wins is not in the HOF (Jim Plunkett).

This alone is a big factor. His play contributes immensely as to his induction. He will be in, make no mistake.


Salute the nation

 

[insaniti]

The top 100 wasn't fan generated it was voted by the players. Everything that you would ever need to know about Ben Roethlisberger, the media and the league occurred at the end of the Super Bowl when they gave the MVP to Santonio Holmes. If that had been Peyton, Eli, Brady or Brees there is no way they don't get the MVP. NONE.
ELI Mannings MVP stat line 19/34 255 7.5 2 1 3-8 76.5
Ben's non-MVP stat line 21/30 256 8.5 1 1 3-22 47.4
Now I don't really know why there is a 30 point difference in passer rating, but those are essentially the same passing lines. I believe Manning fumbled 2 times too but they were both recovered by the offense.

blah blah blah, the fans voting just closed. So the original list was the players, in that you are correct. But that doesn't help your case any with the HOF voting.

As for the pt difference in the QB rating, the loss of yards from the sacks, and one less TD. The Holmes catch was fresh in the minds of the voters for the MVP, not the first play of the drive where Ben avoided the sack and completed the pass for a first down. Ben is going to be just fine when it comes time for his HOF voting, I don't know what the big deal is tho. He still has several good playing years left before he retires let alone is eligible for the HOF.

 

[Drink IRON City]

Its funny how that FIVE year buffer before voting, calms things way down. Look at the rayray (murder), as one example. Or when the germans bombed Pearl Harbor, all the while it was really the Italians. Case in point, time makes forgetfulness happen. Ben is in, no argument here.


Salute the nation

 

[Supersteeler]

So if Ben goes in the HOF he is going to have to wait on Peyton Manning, Tom Brady and Drew Brees to go in first, so it might take awhile. They aren't going to vote 4 QB's from the same era in at the same time. Also, although I'm not one of them, there are lots of people who will make the case that Phil Rivers and Eli Manning are just as HOF worthy as Ben. If those people have a say, Ben could be 6th in line to get in. I think the amount of QB's from this era who have the potential to get in will really hurt his chances, at least for awhile. If he does get in, it won't be for a good bit of years I don't think.

 

[Drink IRON City]

So if Ben goes in the HOF he is going to have to wait on Peyton Manning, Tom Brady and Drew Brees to go in first, so it might take awhile. They aren't going to vote 4 QB's from the same era in at the same time. Also, although I'm not one of them, there are lots of people who will make the case that Phil Rivers and Eli Manning are just as HOF worthy as Ben. If those people have a say, Ben could be 6th in line to get in. I think the amount of QB's from this era who have the potential to get in will really hurt his chances, at least for awhile. If he does get in, it won't be for a good bit of years I don't think.

Just curious, what the heck has Phil Rivers done?



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