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Sean Lee may be out for year.

I never said Timmons wasn't a good LBer. That's the thing that Timmons lovers can't get through their heads. He either has to be a great LB that should be in the pro-bowl or he is ****. There is no middle ground with you people. Farrior was a good Lb but not great. Foote was not as good as Farrior. They have similar stats as Timmons but somehow Timmons is suppose to be a dominant pro-bowl caliber LB while Farrior and Foote were average/ below average.

Not a great linebacker? Seems like I and the entire NFL would disagree with you when Farrior was runner up to Ed Reed as DPOY in 2004.

Earl Holmes was good. Clark Haggans was good. Larry Foot was good. Is Farrior a HOFer, no. Did Potsie have greatness to his game? Yes he did.
 
Timmons gets far more pass rush opportunities than Farrior ever did. Farrior dropped in coverage more where he was an impact player and nearly won Defensive Player of the Year.

Heres why the Timmons discussions are maddening. The complainers don't even understand the argument. They set up the strawman that if you criticize Timmons it means you think he sucks or you are only rooting against him to make yourself look good.

Once again, he is pretty good. I don't see anybody dispute that. But you don't draft pretty good as high as he was drafted. You don't make pretty good one of the highest paid at his position.

it has always been a question of value with Timmons. Are the steelers getting enough payoff for the huge investment in him? The answer is no.

Timmons is a guy who up to this point has had to be told what to do on each play. Want to know why Foote stuck around so long, it's because he had to line Timmons up.

Timmons is paid a bit less than Patrick Willis and a bit more than Navarro Bowman. Does anybody honesty think he makes as much impact as either of them?

The Steelers correctly allowed Mike Wallace to leave. He was more of an impact player than Timmons but he wasn't worth the money. The Dolphins are seeing that now. Same player, but salary completely changes his reality. Big money players have to make big plays regularly or you are screwed.

You don't get in cap trouble paying a guy like Big Ben. He makes other players better. You get into trouble when your big money player is good but not great. Because then he is not raising up the players around him which means that you have to spend more money to get the production you thought you would get from that star.

No, they won't trade Timmmons this year, but if Shazier is as good as advertised, I think Timmons may be expendable for next year.
 
Not a great linebacker? Seems like I and the entire NFL would disagree with you when Farrior was runner up to Ed Reed as DPOY in 2004.

Earl Holmes was good. Clark Haggans was good. Larry Foot was good. Is Farrior a HOFer, no. Did Potsie have greatness to his game? Yes he did.

Farrior was a very good player. But he didn't win DPOY. Also he only made 2 pro-bowls and 1 first team all pro. Just to put that in perspective Pouncey has already been elected to first team all pro once and has 3 pro-bowls. But I don't consider him a great center. Farrior was a very good LB but he wasn't "great".
 
Timmons graded out with a negative grade for this season and the 23 ilb in the league. Yet his pay average is the second highest only a few dollars behind Willis for the #1 spot. Anyone who thinks he's among the top ilbs in he league are blind or clueless. This league has many great ilbs right now he's not one of them
 
Can anyone tell me (w/out looking it up) which stats belong to Timmons and which to Willis from last year?

LB #1: Tackles - 104 Sacks - 4 FF - 2 Int. - 0

LB #2: Tackles - 126 Sacks - 3 FF - 1 Int. - 2

Similar production deserves similar compensation.
 
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Can anyone tell me (w/out looking it up) which stats belong to Timmons and which to Willis from last year?

LB #1: Tackles - 104 Sacks - 4 FF - 2 Int. - 0

LB #2: Tackles - 126 Sacks - 3 FF - 1 Int. - 2

Similar production deserves similar compensation.


Cant wait to see how this is spun!!!
 
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Spinned? How about "spun"?
 
To be fair to Vader, IIRC, I was the one who brought up the stats. Not to trash Timmons, but to show that he has performed better (marginally so, some will say) than Foote/Farrior. And also to point out that he has done so in only 7 years compared to 12 and 15 years for Foote/Farrior.

My mistake.

Timmons gets far more pass rush opportunities than Farrior ever did. Farrior dropped in coverage more where he was an impact player and nearly won Defensive Player of the Year.

Heres why the Timmons discussions are maddening. The complainers don't even understand the argument. They set up the strawman that if you criticize Timmons it means you think he sucks or you are only rooting against him to make yourself look good.

Once again, he is pretty good. I don't see anybody dispute that. But you don't draft pretty good as high as he was drafted. You don't make pretty good one of the highest paid at his position.

it has always been a question of value with Timmons. Are the steelers getting enough payoff for the huge investment in him? The answer is no.

Timmons is a guy who up to this point has had to be told what to do on each play. Want to know why Foote stuck around so long, it's because he had to line Timmons up.

Timmons is paid a bit less than Patrick Willis and a bit more than Navarro Bowman. Does anybody honesty think he makes as much impact as either of them?

The Steelers correctly allowed Mike Wallace to leave. He was more of an impact player than Timmons but he wasn't worth the money. The Dolphins are seeing that now. Same player, but salary completely changes his reality. Big money players have to make big plays regularly or you are screwed.

You don't get in cap trouble paying a guy like Big Ben. He makes other players better. You get into trouble when your big money player is good but not great. Because then he is not raising up the players around him which means that you have to spend more money to get the production you thought you would get from that star.

No, they won't trade Timmmons this year, but if Shazier is as good as advertised, I think Timmons may be expendable for next year.

I guess my problem with this is that the argument with Timmons is never consistent. It's always some variation of the following three arguments:

He's playing next to/in front of pro bowl/all pro players

He had a down season in year (x)

He can't call the defense

The third one is concerning. Timmons is a seven year veteran and should be able to take the lead. (Though to be fair to him, it seems this season he's finally getting the responsibility thrust on him come hell or high water) The other two are frankly BS excuses from people who want to dump on him.

Personally, my opinion of Timmons is that physically he's just as capable as Willis is. Timmons' flaw, as it's always been, is between the ears. He never matured into the field general Willis is.He also makes mental mistakes that a seven year vet should not be making.
Now as I said before, this season is put up or shut up with regards to Timmons and being that field general - the Steelers expect it of him now with Shazier drafted. He's now one of the senior guys on this defense, so the "can't someone else do it?" excuse won't fly.

As for Foote, Foote didn't stick around so long because of Timmons. Foote stuck around so long because the Spence experiment was put on hold for two years and rebooted into the Shazier experiment.
 
Since Timmons will be setting the defense this year i guess we will finally see if the argument that he is lost without help holds water. If our defense plays stellar, then what? Personally i think the only reason it took 7 years was because we had veterans in front of him already doing the job at a high level. I would take Farrior every day of the week over the raven reredrum (see "the shinning") and TWICE on sundays!
 
Can anyone tell me (w/out looking it up) which stats belong to Timmons and which to Willis from last year?

LB #1: Tackles - 104 Sacks - 4 FF - 2 Int. - 0

LB #2: Tackles - 126 Sacks - 3 FF - 1 Int. - 2

Similar production deserves similar compensation.

Oh gee, i wonder if Timmons comes out ahead in your cherry picked stat line?

You do realize Willis only played 14 games last year, right. Is pointing that out considered spin?

Tackle stats are worthless for determining how good a player is. Even a bad player can have a bunch of tackles particularly at MLB or ILB. Tackle stats aren't official and even if they were they're just a point of reference that doesn't necessarily mean a guy is great.

Total tackles counts a solo tackle and an assist the same, so if you have 2 solo tackles, and 8 assists in a game, you have 10 total tackles for that game. Sounds great but in reality it could mean the player had 2 good plays and 8 pile jumps. And it doesn't say where those tackles happened. Did the LB beat a block and stuff it in the hole or was he blocked by the FB and got an assist 8 yards downfield? The tackle stats doesn't say.

But if you love the tackle stats so much why not use their career totals since they were both drafted the same year, it should be a fair comparison.

Willis 916 tackles, 20.5 sacks, 16 FF, 7 INT
Timmons 616 tackles, 26 sack, 12 FF, 9 INT
 
Tape ... you have a serious anger issue. It's cool though.
Now, since you want to give Willis a pass for only playing in 14 games last year, does that mean Timmons also gets a pass for his rookie year when he wasn't a starter and Willis was? It's cool if you don't, because from what I read above, if we throw out the "unofficial" tackle numbers and rely solely on sacks, forced fumbles and interceptions, Timmons still stacks up rather nicely to Willis over the course of their careers.

Willis 20.5 sacks, 16 FF, 7 INT
Timmons 26 sacks, 12 FF, 9 INT

You're right, it is a pretty fair comparison. Thanks for that.

Of course, you always have the option of pointing out the disparity in their total tackles numbers. However, that would be pretty hypocritical since you just showed us how much you disdain that "unofficial" stat.
And of course we wouldn't want to use those "unofficial" tackle stats that are skewed in Willis' favor when we consider that Timmons did not become a starter until his third year and Willis has started approximately 28 more games than Timmons (speaking of cherry picking stats btw).

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/T/TimmLa99.htm

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WillPa98.htm
 
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Things are heating up again have to admit Timmons numbers stack up better than I thought they would.
 
For ***** sake, I guess I'm just glad we didn't blow that first round pick on Woodley, ya know, like so many were saying we should have done. Since after all, Woodley was worth a pick that high, but not Timmons. Wait, what number does Woodley have this year again?

Joe
 
Maybe we can bring back the Gildong threads just to have something to compare it to.
 
from what I've digested from this board regarding LB play, sacks do not count unless they are slanted in favor of who is doing the argument.
Tackles...they may as well do away with that since tackling the ball carrier is meaningless.
 
Guys drafted before Timmons include: Jamarcus Russell, Gaines Adams, Levi Brown, Ted Ginn Jr., Amobi Okoye, Adam Carriker (a guy a lot of us were hoping would fall)

Guys drafted after Timmons that turned out to be pretty good: Jon Beason, Ben Grubbs and Joe Staley

So much heat is on Timmons because he was drafted with the #15 pick. But it's not like we took him over Patrick Willis. Does every Timmons thread have a contain a comparison to Willis (a first-ballot HOFer) just because we took Timmons at #15 in a so-so draft?
 
The Rog will be doing away with those soon.



Hold on ark steel, rayray, will be looking up the rog, if that happens. Then rayray will be doing away with the rog, piece by piece !!



Salute the nation
 
Guys drafted before Timmons include: Jamarcus Russell, Gaines Adams, Levi Brown, Ted Ginn Jr., Amobi Okoye, Adam Carriker (a guy a lot of us were hoping would fall)

Guys drafted after Timmons that turned out to be pretty good: Jon Beason, Ben Grubbs and Joe Staley

So much heat is on Timmons because he was drafted with the #15 pick. But it's not like we took him over Patrick Willis. Does every Timmons thread have a contain a comparison to Willis (a first-ballot HOFer) just because we took Timmons at #15 in a so-so draft?

Then why do Timmons lovers bring them up? It wasn't even mentioned in this thread until Deacon brought it up trying to say that Timmons and Willis are similar.
 
Then why do Timmons lovers bring them up? It wasn't even mentioned in this thread until Deacon brought it up trying to say that Timmons and Willis are similar.

because when someone wants to argue facts in a sport, they tend to want to use some stats to solidify their stance on the subject.
 
A littler earlier then I expected, but off we go haha...
 
Dude can't catch a break. He might be a Cowboy but he's a local guy.
 
from what I've digested from this board regarding LB play, sacks do not count unless they are slanted in favor of who is doing the argument.
Tackles...they may as well do away with that since tackling the ball carrier is meaningless.

I'm glad you finally understand.
 
And each of them play a different version of the 3-4. Dobre posted the difference on the other board. But don't let facts get in the way. You think Farrior (who has similar stats to Timmons) is better than Lewis? Or Foote?

Dobre Shunka said:
In this defense, the mack position is the sidekick. The compliment to the greater position, buck. That's part of the problem with the compensation. If he was reading the O and getting the D set and communicated properly, like the buck does in this D, then fine. But he can't even be counted on to get his own self set properly. I don't know how this is even a conversation after the train wreck that was last year. They completely scrapped their defense because Timmons wasn't up to that critical task. And he wasn't even their first or second choice to step into that critical role when Foote went down. They first turned to a R6 rookie who had never played 3 downs before, and an second year undrafted free agent before giving Timmons a go at it. And even then, they dropped Polamalu down to help him get it set. The D was bleeding big play after big play last year because people were out of position. That's a buck problem.

Foote was a very average player, maybe not even that. But he knew the D inside and out, understands offenses and reads/matchups, and can get the D set, communicate, lead. But just the physical act of playing the buck position, he is just a guy. Timmons on the other hand, is the opposite. Physically, he's very good. He can play either position. He's most effective when he's given a place to be presnap. He's a good blitzer, and a good runblitzer. He's good at getting into his drops in coverage. But when he has to read the play before and as it develops, and react off of that, he's not as good. And that's where he gets out of his fits, or just stands there until the play or the guard gets to him. Anyways, the point is we've all seen Timmons at his best, and we've seen what happens to the D when the buck can't get it set. Which has the greater overall impact on the D? Good mack play or a buck that can't get it set? Or a jaggy Buck who can get all 11 lined up? That is why the Buck is/should be the Batman in your analogy to the Mack's Robin.


Yes, after they scrapped Williams and Wilson experiment, they gave the green dot to Timmons, and dropped Polamalu down to a faux-ILB on most downs to help out. I'm saying he didn't do it well. At all. It wasn't 'next man up/standard is the standard'. They scrapped their whole defense because of the loss of Foote. When they lost Roethlisberger for any length of time, did they change the O at all? But with the loss of Foote, it was all out the window.

The defense wasn't playing as one unit. It was 11 guys running around trying to make a play. The big plays were the result of people not being where they should be. Safeties jumping up because they don't trust the guys playing in front of them and getting burned over the top. Guys losing their fit in the run game. It was a complete clusterfuck. Just a bunch of chickens running around the yard. Timmons was not the answer at Buck.

Fwiw, I don't blame Timmons for that. I blame the coaches for having no plan or thought whatsoever in the event that they happened to lose their very old/declining/shrinking Buck. None.

Hell ******* yeah it matters. Did you miss the clusterfuck that was last year? What's more important? Getting 11 to play as one, even if the one who sets the 11 isn't that good? Or one good player at a complimentary/non-essential position?

There's a little truth in all hyperbole, no? Seriously, characterize what you think the opinion of the 'Timmons-haters' is of Timmons (as offbase as it might be) and compare it to what you just said of Woodley. If we're being 'honest', I think you'd find that what you said gives less credit to Woodley than the 'Timmons-haters' give Timmons, and is more vitriolic. So, how are you any different than any of the people you pop out to complain about? Worse really. You know, if we're being honest. Since, even if conceding for the sake of argument they are all Timmons-haters, it can't be said they are also hypocrits. It isn't that you're upset about 'bashing a Steeler'. It's just specific to Timmons alone, apparently.

I saved it.........
 
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