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The Coronavirus thread

I don't think anyone is intentionally lying to us, the reality is it's a new disease and they learn new things about it all the time. They still don't know everything yet, but they've learned a lot.

Unfortunately, now that we DO know things they aren't adjusting. There is no legitimate scientific reason why children shouldn't be in school or why Walmart can be open but a restaurant can't. We know that most people get this virus from their own friends and family members...not from random people in public places. We should have shifted to targeted measures to protect those most vulnerable months ago. While I don't agree with most of you that masks are useless, and feel that ultimately they really aren't that burdensome, I do agree that shutdowns and lockdowns aren't working and are causing much more harm than good.
 
An article came out last week (I can't find it now if I do I will post it) where yet again we found out "alternate" news from the "experts", specifically on ventilators. Doctors confessed to sedating and putting patients on ventilators who specifically didn't need to be on them so they could essentially forget about them and move on to other patients.

I know that's a bit different than putting them on vents for money, but it does go to show that decisions are made we wouldn't consider. The average gullible American would say "who would do that, I have a hard time believing that".

Welp, there's an example of people being put on vents who didn't need to be on vents. It's not that hard to fathom, especially in a year like 2020, when so many deaths have been falsified, so many lies told to us, to believe some % of people could have been put on vents due to political directives by hospital administrations. I'd like to believe this wouldn't happen...but reality would indicate it is to some degree. Hopefully very small.

---------------------

Found the article (original article came from the Wall St Journal)

Physician: COVID Patients Initially Underwent ‘Risky Sedation,’ Put On Ventilators To Protect Staff, Other Patients
“We were intubating sick patients very early — not for the patients’ benefit, but in order to control the epidemic..."

A critical-care physician told The Wall Street Journal that patients sick from the China-originated novel coronavirus last spring were put under “risky sedation” and placed on ventilators “[n]ot for the patients’ benefit,” but in an effort to potentially stop the virus from spreading to staff and other patients.

Other less risky methods of breathing support could potentially result in a patient “spray[ing] dangerous amounts of virus into the air,” the physician argued.

“We were intubating sick patients very early — not for the patients’ benefit, but in order to control the epidemic and to save other patients,” said Dr. Theodore Iwashyna, a critical-care physician at University of Michigan and Department of Veterans Affairs hospitals in Ann Arbor. “That felt awful.”

The shocking comment was picked up by the founder of Rational Guard and lockdown critic Justin Hart.

“What happened to ‘do no harm,'” he questioned. “This article makes me sick.”

Hart’s comment is in reference to one of the promises in the Hippocratic Oath doctors are sworn to practice: “first, do no harm.”

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">What happened to “do no harm”<br>This article makes me sick. <a href="https://t.co/PWVMum5LET">https://t.co/PWVMum5LET</a> <a href="https://t.co/2kib9ITbK3">pic.twitter.com/2kib9ITbK3</a></p>— Justin Hart (@justin_hart) <a href="https://twitter.com/justin_hart/status/1340898030782881793?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 21, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

The Journal elaborated on Dr. Iwashyna’s remarks: “Last spring, doctors put patients on ventilators partly to limit contagion at a time when it was less clear how the virus spread, when protective masks and gowns were in short supply. Doctors could have employed other kinds of breathing support devices that don’t require risky sedation, but early reports suggested patients using them could spray dangerous amounts of virus into the air, said Theodore Iwashyna.”

According to the critical-care physician, doctors and nurses at the time “feared the virus would spread through hospitals.”

“Ventilators can injure lungs by causing too much strain as the machines force in air,” the Journal noted. “They deliver air and oxygen through a throat tube, which the body typically fights.”

“We’ve got gag reflexes that are pretty hard to go away, precisely to avoid things going into our lungs,” Iwashyna explained.

Moreover, early COVID patients were looked in on fewer times than normal — again in an attempt to “slow the spread” within the hospital — and therefore given stronger sedatives. Research suggests stronger sedatives are riskier for patients.

“As a safety precaution, doctors and hospitals limited the access of health-care workers to coronavirus patients on ventilators, giving them fewer opportunities to check on them,” the Journal noted. “That meant patients required more powerful sedatives to keep them from pulling out throat tubes. Sedation increases risk for delirium, research suggests, and delirium increases the likelihood of long-term confusion and death.”

The high risk to patients was ultimately all for naught, per the Journal. Research showed that “alternative devices to ventilators, such as delivering oxygen through nasal tubes, weren’t as risky to caretakers as believed,” the Journal said.

Treatment now mostly looks like it did pre-pandemic: “Doctors hold off longer before placing patients on ventilators. Patients get less powerful sedatives, with doctors checking more frequently to see if they can halt the drugs entirely and dialing back how much air ventilators push into patients’ lungs with each breath.”

“Let us go back to basics,” said Dr. Eduardo Oliveira, executive medical director for critical-care services for AdventHealth Central Florida. “The less you deviate from it, the better.”

I mean it's awful if they had to do that but the idea of not spraying a highly contagious and deadly virus all over a hospital is a legitimate one. It doesn't sound like it was done out of some kind of nefarious goal.
 
I don't think anyone is intentionally lying to us, the reality is it's a new disease and they learn new things about it all the time. They still don't know everything yet, but they've learned a lot.

You are vastly more optimistic and trusting about all of those making bank on the virus - politicians, big businesses, media - than I. I give zero credence to any person or business which never missed a check or even made more money from the virus. ZERO. These are the same overtly corrupt liars who told us this:

CNN_Mostly_Peaceful_Protests_Banner.jpg


Small businesses, independent businesses, middle class, restaurants, bars, churches? Destroyed. Not one tyrannical governor gives a **** about that.

Politicians, big tech, big business, pharma and government workers? Making bank, buddy, making bank.
 
Didn't I see a video on here posted by a Florida nurse who went to NY or NJ because of staffing shortages who filmed drs forcing people on to ventilators and strong sedation? She was horrified by the dark and evil intentions exhibited by the upper admin/medical staff. It was hard to watch. One patient she said was nearly able to be released was dead when she returned from a break. She swore it was nefarious. I dont trust any of those in charge.
 
Didn't I see a video on here posted by a Florida nurse who went to NY or NJ because of staffing shortages who filmed drs forcing people on to ventilators and strong sedation? She was horrified by the dark and evil intentions exhibited by the upper admin/medical staff. It was hard to watch. One patient she said was nearly able to be released was dead when she returned from a break. She swore it was nefarious. I dont trust any of those in charge.

I remember that video. Would be good to view it again. Anyone got the link?
 
I mean it's awful if they had to do that but the idea of not spraying a highly contagious and deadly virus all over a hospital is a legitimate one. It doesn't sound like it was done out of some kind of nefarious goal.

I dunno, if my mother went into the hospital with COVID and I found out they unnecessarily vented her (which has its own substantial risks), I'd be hiring a very good lawyer.

No Jimmy, not you.
 
I dunno, if my mother went into the hospital with COVID and I found out they unnecessarily vented her (which has its own substantial risks), I'd be hiring a very good lawyer.

No Jimmy, not you.

Unnecessarily is the key word.

This was wartime medicine. They didn’t know what they were dealing with. Call me crazy I think the vast majority of doctors and nurses are trying to do what they think is best for all of their patients. What if venting one person saved 10 lives? Like I said, you have to think someone is pretty evil if you think they would do something like this arbitrarily or for nefarious reasons.
 
In that video, I clearly remember her showing the results of the Covid test/ and hey all were PRESUMPTIVE POSITIVE. Results hadn’t come back yet. So they ventilated people who hadn’t been confirmed positive. It’s on the video. Watch that and tell me it’s not nefarious. Go ahead.
 
first off - to make it clear, i'm not trying to belittle you or be condescending. i save that for the prominent elite of the board.

secondly - i do hope you and yours recover quickly

those said, i was also at a fire pit get together this weekend. like you said, going in and out of the house for restroom usage etc. There were roughly 15 or so of us. Like you said you do, I avoid people. Primarily because I work from home. And have been flattening this curve since March. I'm not aware of anyone at our gathering getting sick or similar, though. I doubt all of us had been social distancing as to the CDC guidelines of 6 feet, wearing masks, etc. Though it literally only takes one very small incident to acquire the Wuhan.

Get better!

I work with different groups of Soldiers every day, both at Fort Drum, NY and Fort Bragg, NC. Most of the time, no one is wearing a mask. We touch the same surfaces, share tools, etc. If I haven't had COVID yet, it is either dumb, blind, uncaring luck, or it just isn't as contagious as we have been led to believe.

I have no doubt that this disease is severe for some people. Best I can tell, it seems to hit the elderly and those with co-morbidities much, much harder than the average Joe. Based on the reading and research I have done, it seems that those killed JUST BY COVID (no co-morbidities) is minuscule compared to those killed by COVID with co-morbidities. The **** that drives me nuts is the guys that are in car crashes or hit by a truck that test positive post mortem and it is classified as a COVID death. That is just downright dishonest, and our bettors do this **** in plain sight and no one questions it. On top of that, flu deaths, and deaths by heart disease, cancer, etc are down and no one questions it, and some actually make excuses for it. Combine that with the mixed messaging from the government concerning this disease and the inconsistency in safety measures and I find it hard to believe that anyone buys any of this stuff.

As far as masks, I have my doubts. I find it hard to believe that some guy wearing half a sock over his face is actually protecting himself, especially when my daughter has to wear a gown, fitted N95 mask, and a face shield when going into a COVID patient's room to check the machines, not even contacting the patient not to mention what virologists wear. But yeah, your half a sock works just as good.

On top of that, you can go into Walmart or any other big box store with hundreds and hundreds of other people touching ****, kids spitting and snotting all over the place but it is far too dangerous to walk into a restaurant where you are seated at least six feet from the nearest person wearing your mask for anything other than eating. It's stupid. And some people wonder why others don't buy it.
 
I'm kind of stubborn about **** like this when it is something I want to know.
 
Sorry, I have relatives and friends who are doctors and nurses and work in ICUs. I've had three children spend a combined 5 1/2 months in NICU and two weeks in PICU. I was with my dad through a year long organ transplant process. The VAST majority of medical professionals, especially in an ICU environment, are highly educated, highly dedicated, work their ***** off, care deeply about their patients, and use every tool they can think of to save lives.

No one is going to convince me that there's a large contingent of nurses and doctors out there in NYC or anywhere else who are actively trying to kill people, or don't care if their patients die. Good luck with that.

There's a whole lot of denial going on about this virus and a whole lot of social media available for anyone who wants to be in denial. The reality is this is a very contagious virus. It's not deadly for most people. It does cause a lot of serious illness and hospitalization. It was a brand new disease and there has been a huge learning curve. Health care workers had to balance saving lives with possibly causing lots of new serious illness. They had to work with severe shortages of PPE.

Get back to me when you have someone who's willing to produce records, name names, go on the record etc. "My friend told me this and I have to protect her identity" doesn't cut it for me. I don't for one second think there's a broad conspiracy of nurses and doctors in NYC or anywhere else willing to intentionally kill people and cover up for each other.

I think some of you guys have fallen a bit too far down the right wing media rabbit hole, sorry. But whatever, people will believe what they want to believe. With the wild west that the internet has become anyone can find stuff to support anything.
 
10 years ago I would've completely agreed with you. Since then I've known of one case and personally known of another where one was in a coma and they wanted to shut her down and she regained consciousness and lived another 10 years healthily. The second case I was in the room with the patient who they deemed braindead. When her son walked up to her bed and fixed her blankets she recognized him and was completely different than she had been. Two days later they removed the breathing tube and she eventually passed. I also watched my mother in law pass away. They were trying to encourage all kinds of unnecessary tests to raise the bill. My mom had the same thing happen with my grandmother. She couldn't speak any longer but my mom said her eyes would alert when they started pushing these procedures. Why would they do that'll? Her systems were shutting down.
 
10 years ago I would've completely agreed with you. Since then I've known of one case and personally known of another where one was in a coma and they wanted to shut her down and she regained consciousness and lived another 10 years healthily. The second case I was in the room with the patient who they deemed braindead. When her son walked up to her bed and fixed her blankets she recognized him and was completely different than she had been. Two days later they removed the breathing tube and she eventually passed. I also watched my mother in law pass away. They were trying to encourage all kinds of unnecessary tests to raise the bill. My mom had the same thing happen with my grandmother. She couldn't speak any longer but my mom said her eyes would alert when they started pushing these procedures. Why would they do that'll? Her systems were shutting down.

So if I'm understanding you correctly you're saying they are damned if they do, damned if they don't. You're both upset that they may have pulled a plug too soon, and upset that they wanted to perform tests or procedures when someone was going to die anyway.

The reality is medicine is not an exact science, and a lot of people don't want to accept that.

That said, some tests and procedures are performed to protect medical professionals from liability, or because families of patients who do not want to accept the reality of a patient's condition. Or maybe because what the heck, the patient's going to die without it so there is nothing to lose by trying it and they may learn valuable information from it.The idea that they do it to make a few extra bucks is ludicrous.
 
So if I'm understanding you correctly you're saying they are damned if they do, damned if they don't. You're both upset that they may have pulled a plug too soon, and upset that they wanted to perform tests or procedures when someone was going to die anyway.

The reality is medicine is not an exact science, and a lot of people don't want to accept that.

That said, some tests and procedures are performed to protect medical professionals from liability, or because families of patients who do not want to accept the reality of a patient's condition. Or maybe because what the heck, the patient's going to die without it so there is nothing to lose by trying it and they may learn valuable information from it.The idea that they do it to make a few extra bucks is ludicrous.

That was kind of a ramble of several concerning incidents.

In at least two of those incidents the patients were clearly hospice bound. The disconcerting thing was how aggressively they pushed it. The y seemed way too ready to give up on the other two who were comatose.

Their recommendations seemed opposite of what the situations warranted.
 
10 years ago I would've completely agreed with you. Since then I've known of one case and personally known of another where one was in a coma and they wanted to shut her down and she regained consciousness and lived another 10 years healthily. The second case I was in the room with the patient who they deemed braindead. When her son walked up to her bed and fixed her blankets she recognized him and was completely different than she had been. Two days later they removed the breathing tube and she eventually passed. I also watched my mother in law pass away. They were trying to encourage all kinds of unnecessary tests to raise the bill. My mom had the same thing happen with my grandmother. She couldn't speak any longer but my mom said her eyes would alert when they started pushing these procedures. Why would they do that'll? Her systems were shutting down.

Because unless someone has a DNR order on filed with that hospital, they are obligated to keep someone alive by any means necessary or they risk getting sued. We're not Sweden and Denmark yet, but that will change once we have Socialized medicine.
 
The reality is medicine is not an exact science, and a lot of people don't want to accept that.

Then people should stop telling other people to "trust the science." See this is the problem. You can blame the internet for putting out false information, but our government is as much responsible for that nonsense as anyone. If their messaging was clearer and less contradictory from the start, with plenty of honesty sprinkled in for good measure, I don't think people would be nearly as skeptical. On top of that, the overlords shutting the planet down, destroying businesses and lives, and making these stupid stay at home rules, are same ones getting caught repeatedly doing the things they are telling everyone else not to do. Yet people are expected to believe this disease is going to kill us all if we don't wear a piece of bed sheet over our faces and stay home indefinitely. Can you really blame anyone for being skeptical?
 
On the plane, we were required to wear a mask for the duration of the flight. I got “mask shamed” because I pulled mine down momentarily to get fresh air. The plane was stuffy and I was getting really hot and felt suffocated. That happens to me a lot when I wear a mask. I get hot and nauseated. Anyway, the flight attendant told me to put my mask back over my nose immediately. Yes...because my 10 seconds of fresh air is contaminating everyone. Also- if you wore a face shield as your protection- legal to do- on the plane you had to wear a mask underneath. What is the logic in that? The over step and arbitrary rules is getting old. And it’s pissing off the masses. We have been “masking up” since March- after being told by scientists that we were doing so to “flatten the curve” and that it would only take 15 days. Here we are almost a year later...still masking up and still putting faith in scientists who really don’t know what they are doing. I have zero faith in them. Zero. Yet I am expected to suck it up and put my life on hold indefinitely because they know best. WRONG.
 
On the plane, we were required to wear a mask for the duration of the flight. I got “mask shamed” because I pulled mine down momentarily to get fresh air. The plane was stuffy and I was getting really hot and felt suffocated. That happens to me a lot when I wear a mask. I get hot and nauseated. Anyway, the flight attendant told me to put my mask back over my nose immediately. Yes...because my 10 seconds of fresh air is contaminating everyone. Also- if you wore a face shield as your protection- legal to do- on the plane you had to wear a mask underneath. What is the logic in that? The over step and arbitrary rules is getting old. And it’s pissing off the masses. We have been “masking up” since March- after being told by scientists that we were doing so to “flatten the curve” and that it would only take 15 days. Here we are almost a year later...still masking up and still putting faith in scientists who really don’t know what they are doing. I have zero faith in them. Zero. Yet I am expected to suck it up and put my life on hold indefinitely because they know best. WRONG.

The mask shaming is rampant in our neck of the woods. Where we live is a mix of Yanks who migrated away from their shitholes and are now turning the area into a shithole and native Virginians who have lived here forever and mind their own business and just want to be left alone. My wife and I use a website called NextDoor to keep track of burglaries, missing pets etc. but recently it has turned into a shitshow comparable to FB where the Karens out there are ratting out businessest for apparently not tasering customers who don't wear a mask. Probably past time to drop off that social media platform as well. They took something that was useful and turned it into a neighbor vs neighbor site where some folks think it is their mission in life to not just "mind their own freakin business".
 
The mask shaming is rampant in our neck of the woods. Where we live is a mix of Yanks who migrated away from their shitholes and are now turning the area into a shithole and native Virginians who have lived here forever and mind their own business and just want to be left alone. My wife and I use a website called NextDoor to keep track of burglaries, missing pets etc. but recently it has turned into a shitshow comparable to FB where the Karens out there are ratting out businessest for apparently not tasering customers who don't wear a mask. Probably past time to drop off that social media platform as well. They took something that was useful and turned it into a neighbor vs neighbor site where some folks think it is their mission in life to not just "mind their own freakin business".

Yep. There is a FB group that is supposed to be a community watch page for our town and it tuned into that. I’m not on FB anymore but I hear about how hateful it has become. And I don’t think it’s gonna get any better any time soon.
 
So if I'm understanding you correctly you're saying they are damned if they do, damned if they don't. You're both upset that they may have pulled a plug too soon, and upset that they wanted to perform tests or procedures when someone was going to die anyway.

The reality is medicine is not an exact science, and a lot of people don't want to accept that.

That said, some tests and procedures are performed to protect medical professionals from liability, or because families of patients who do not want to accept the reality of a patient's condition. Or maybe because what the heck, the patient's going to die without it so there is nothing to lose by trying it and they may learn valuable information from it.The idea that they do it to make a few extra bucks is ludicrous.

to the contrary, i feel differently. I only quoted you, onefor, for the bolded statement, which makes the rounds.

we've been told to "trust the science"
then told that "its an inexact science, that is constantly evolving"
and finally told "don't question the science"

so... follow the science that is constantly evolving, but don't dare question it. that makes no sense. As was brought up earlier, the "14 days to flatten the curve" is creeping up on 12 months. Yes, we know more about the ChineseVirus now than we did at this point last year, and we'll know more in March than we did last March. However, during this time, we've heard from Fauci and Surgeon General Jerome Adams at various times say masks are inefficient.

Look at Sarge's reply. I'm not sure what Sarge's daughter does, but it would appear she works in a hospital. Nurse, is what I'm thinking. Yet she has to put on all this stuff to keep her safe from the Rona and possibly infecting others in that building. A friend of mine's mother retired as a virologist. She had to wear a whole assortment of gear to keep any virus from infecting her. Literally no skin was to be showing. If she got geared up, entered the lab and brushed her face, causing her mask to move, she'd have to go back out, remove the gear and start from square 1. That's an extreme example for dealing with viruses that no one knows about - I'll admit that.

Yet we are to be safe if we wear a cloth mask. or one 100% cotton. or a shield attached to our heads.

I'll say that the mask does not prevent you from getting the Rona, as its to keep you from spreading it. Videos show exhalation will go downwards and out towards the back of the head. So masks redirect your exhalation. The PPE shield will prevent you from walking into a cloud of Rona and possibly keep you from acquiring the Wuhan. It, too, will prevent the forward expulsion of your exhalation. And protect your eyes.

I'm honestly surprised we've not been told to wear goggles of some kind, since a virus can just as easy infect a body via eyes as nose.

I'm sure that if/when we are told to wear goggles, that we'll also be told that the science is evolving and this will help prevent the spread.
 
The reality is medicine is not an exact science, and a lot of people don't want to accept that.

That said, some tests and procedures are performed to protect medical professionals from liability, or because families of patients who do not want to accept the reality of a patient's condition. .

My sister is a medical doctor, retired right before Covid hit.. She was so happy the day she retired, sick of the whole medical field.

She said that doctors are just professional guessers. When a patient has symptoms, you try to eliminate what they don't have, and then make a diagnosis based on what is left over.
And yes, she would prescribe tests purely to protect her from liability. Thank lawyers for that.
 
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