Tomlin....he's driving a proud organization straight in to the ground.

[Tibs]

I give up. Both of you - Vader and Idiot - tell us precisely WHOM you would replace Tomlin with if you were asked to fire Tomlin today and bring in a coach tonite.

That's easy, this guy, Coach Morris Buttermaker.

 

[Idioteque]

That's easy, this guy, Coach Morris Buttermaker.

Prefer this one

 

[Troglodyte]

Not to defend Tomlin but wasn't Cowher the first coach to lose to the expansion Jaguars and Browns and didn't he give the Bengals both of their only wins in a 2-14 season? Or maybe it was losing to two different 2-14 Bengals teams? Anyway, the contention that Cowhers teams never lost to inferior talent is a false one.

 

[Vader]

Deal with what? You make it sound like the Donahue vs Cowher tiff is what held the franchise back. The only reason they started beefing was because Donahue said the Steelers had more then enough talent to win after a playoff loss. That started the tiff between the two. Before that there was no problem. Lets not pretend from 92 until him and Donahue got into that Cowher was working under some horrible conditions.

Harrison was a unknown. No one knew what we had. If they did he would of played before Haggans. Taylor was similar too Lewis did nothing his first two yeaes started one year and benched his forth. My point was just like Harrison no one knew what we get from in 2007.

See once again you take me saying Cowher not finding a QB as a slight to him. Far from the case. I loved Kordell. Was pissed when he was benched for Maddox. I didnt realize that Kordell issue was himself til later. He didnt have it. One mistake and he couldnt overcome it. So when i say something about Bill not getting a QB its not because I wanted him too. Its because people use that as an reason for him. Tomlin doesnt get reasons. He has excuses. Double standard to me.

See its not just the 1st round pick that high. Its every round. So while yes they blew picks on Edwards and Shields maybe they dont get Porter and Smith in the later rounds if they werent picking high in each round. Plax didnt stay but he was a big part of the team too.

And you make it sound like they had a small disagreement over a parking place. I never said they were at odds the entire time. But from what I read they had several years of bad blood. You are ASSUMING that the "plenty of talent" remark was the start when you don't know that at all. You're just guessing.

Harrison was not unknown. I've posted an interview with LeBeau saying how good he was. He just didn't know the play book. Just like Keisel. He had very good players in front of him but that doesn't mean Cowher ****** up because he didn't know what he had in Keisel. That's just nuts.

It's not a double standard. Cowher built his teams. Tomlin hasn't built anything. Cowher drafted pro-bowl HOF caliber players. Tomlin struggles to find a single player that is better than the guy they are replacing. Tomlin doesn't even like some of his own draft picks. He let's Lewis walk without even talking to him about a contract. The entire 08' and 09' drafts are gone.

He had 10 draft picks in 2010 and only Pouncey, Brown and Worilds are still here. Worilds is worthless and Pouncey is over rated. Brown is a stud.

2011 they have Heyward, Gilbert and Allen. Gilbert and Allen were extended but aren't good players. Heyward is up and down but appears to be getting better.

2012 they had 9 picks. DeCastro, Adams, Spence and Beachum are left. Adams is horrible. Beachum is an average LT. Spence could be good and DeCastro is ok.

The last two drafts are too soon to get a read yet.

Plex had nothing to do with the SB team. Yea, "MAYBE" they don't get them but nobody knows that. I know they drafted Sweed when everyone thought he'd be a 1st rounder. Mendy "fell" to them. DeCastro fell to them. According to them Jones fell to them etc... Who's to say who would have been there? I just know that none of their "high" picks were in the SB.

 

[Superman]

Sorry; didn't mean to break your brain there. Just answered your points is all.



There are several candidates I would've looked at over the last couple of years. Bill O'Brien would have been at the top of my list. Mike McCoy, too.

Going forward.. I love Darrell Bevell, great playcaller and has a good head for scheme IMO. Knows how to use the run to set up the downfield game; mixes in WC principles without pounding pegs into wrong holes. Trusts his playmakers - and his QB - to win matchups.

David Shaw has coached so many future NFLers that it seems to me he can grasp NFL principles and egos. Love his Stanford teams.

On the darkhorse side, Jim Harbaugh could be coming available this offseason.

i have a 14-year old daughter. If I wanted to have a juvenile argument, I'd tell her One Direction sucks.
which is exacty the direction all your arguments take....a unfailing drive down Over The Top lane.

 

[Superman]

But, as usual, you totally skate over the difference while focusing only one the records. Cowher didn't inherit when Tomlin did. Tomlin has never built a team. He even has to find old Cowher players just to compete. Just comparing the things that you want to doesn't make them similar. It's like saying the moon and the sun are identical. Just gloss over that the sun is a hell of a lot bigger, it's a gas ball, and it's the center of the solar system. But yea, they're both spherical shapes and they are both in the solar system so they are identical.

I didnt skate over a goddamn thing.
I made the similarity between Switzer and Tomlin.
VERY close situations.

your analogy was ****. I wasn't saying Tomlin is Lombardi, as you want to insinuate. I'm not calling him Chris Palmer, either.
He inherited a damn good team. So he didn't have to tear it down and build it back up. Why would he do something like that, anyway, other than to stroke an ego? All he had to do was add a few pieces here and there and stay off the goddamn field on special teams plays.
It's not like he's Eric Mangini, a true fuckup.

 

[Wingman]

Big difference between the two coaches Cowher and MT, Ray Charles could see that and he is both blind and dead. The fact that some can't is very interesting. I still believe the main reason Tomlin was hired was his lack of experience compared to his predecessors. I think the idea was to set him up with a strong talent base while he learned the Steeler way according to what the Rooneys thought it was.

Chuck Noll changed the previous decades of team building into something else. Bill Cowher was a hometown guy that was familiar with the way things were done in Pittsburgh and experience in the league both as a player and coach and coached for a team that was in the same division with the Steelers. The Tomlin tenure does not appear to be building the team we as fans had wanted to see on the field. This is likely due to one of two reasons, Tomlin does not have what it takes to do the job, or he has learned what the Steeler way is from the Rooneys and is performing just the way they want him to and that is not working. Common theme here it is not working. One other thing that no one seems to bring up very often is the fact that Cowher took his team to the Playoffs his first six years, MT has not.

 

[Superman]

Big difference between the two coaches Cowher and MT, Ray Charles could see that and he is both blind and dead. The fact that some can't is very interesting. I still believe the main reason Tomlin was hired was his lack of experience compared to his predecessors. I think the idea was to set him up with a strong talent base while he learned the Steeler way according to what the Rooneys thought it was.

Chuck Noll changed the previous decades of team building into something else. Bill Cowher was a hometown guy that was familiar with the way things were done in Pittsburgh and experience in the league both as a player and coach and coached for a team that was in the same division with the Steelers. The Tomlin tenure does not appear to be building the team we as fans had wanted to see on the field. This is likely due to one of two reasons, Tomlin does not have what it takes to do the job, or he has learned what the Steeler way is from the Rooneys and is performing just the way they want him to and that is not working. Common theme here it is not working. One other thing that no one seems to bring up very often is the fact that Cowher took his team to the Playoffs his first six years, MT has not.

this, I agree with.

Cowher and Tomlin are two very different coaches, even though their records are very similar.
I also wonder if the Rooney Rule had a lot to do with the hiring of Tomlin. Can you imagine the hypocritical blow-back had we not hired Tomlin or Ron Rivera?

 

[Wingman]

They are not creating a monster

They are creating the 90s Bengals. It is sad that some former greats whose age has slowed down are still the best players on the team. It looks like we may finally have picked a few good players this draft instead of one or two or none but it is fast becoming too late to right the ship. Doing the same thing and expecting different results is the definition of insanity according to a very wise man. That is the course of action advocated by the leader of this team, who thinks there is nothing wrong with the way they prepare according to recent quotes.

I had finally started hoping he was getting to a place where he could begin to prepare a team for a game and that he had grown into his job enough for the team to improve over the next year and then begin to contend the year after that. I do not think that is the case. There may be some coaching changes this year. Dick may retire, Tomlin could be gone and our next HC could be our line coach or offensive coordinator. We could also end up with someone from the outside. If it is from the outside I would expect them to have a greater amount of experience than MT did prior to being hired.

 

[wig]

I believe Cowher was a "Players Coach" as well. However, Cowher was a "tough-love" guy. He wasn't afraid to get right in your face and tear you a new one when you screwed up and then it was over and done with. He chewed a player out, it was covered and they moved on. Tomlin on the other hand wants to be a "buddy". I wouldn't be shocked if he's got a spot in his house where he hangs out with some of the players now and then. Seriously.

Coach T seems far too interested in being liked by his players. At least that's how I see it.

 

[SteelBuckeye]

They are creating the 90s Bengals. It is sad that some former greats whose age has slowed down are still the best players on the team. It looks like we may finally have picked a few good players this draft instead of one or two or none but it is fast becoming too late to right the ship. Doing the same thing and expecting different results is the definition of insanity according to a very wise man. That is the course of action advocated by the leader of this team, who thinks there is nothing wrong with the way they prepare according to recent quotes.

I had finally started hoping he was getting to a place where he could begin to prepare a team for a game and that he had grown into his job enough for the team to improve over the next year and then begin to contend the year after that. I do not think that is the case. There may be some coaching changes this year. Dick may retire, Tomlin could be gone and our next HC could be our line coach or offensive coordinator. We could also end up with someone from the outside. If it is from the outside I would expect them to have a greater amount of experience than MT did prior to being hired.

1. Whatever quotes Tomlin has made that give you this impression, taking the action of bringing in refs to work with the players at practice shows that he isn't preparing the team the same way this week. Will it help? Who knows, but at least he's trying something. I would rather that he would have been proactive about this rather than reactive about the issue, but at least he's trying to change the approach.

2. How many "Fire Tomlin" threads do we need this week and why couldn't this have been posted in one of the others?

 

[diver]

If a new, more competent coach and his staff come along, I surmise that many of our current players wouldnt be on the team very long. Soo either that new coach will make things worse, or, orrrrrr...make the team better through sound personnel choices?? And yes, believe it or not, coaches who can keep their team focused/motivated for "more than a year" actually DO exist, theyre are multiple coaches that fit that profile in the league

Define focused. See, this is the issue. Is the definition of focus being competitive? Or is the definition of focus winning championships. This is an important distinction.

If remaining competitive is the definition of focused, I would say you are right, a number of coaches fill that description, Tomlin included. The Steelers have been competitive. Everybody's genius coach, Bill Belechick, has certainly kept the Patriots competitive. But there is where it falls apart, because if you are honest, and the Steelers were going on 12 years with a franchise QB and no SB titles, you'd be ready to run him out on a rail. Hell, Tomlin got them the the SB in '10, the team was certainly competitive, yet he got roundly ripped by poeple who said that the team wasn't focused and motivated for the SB. You guys talk out of both sides of your mouth.

If championships is the measure of focus, than only one guy right now fills that description, the guy in Seattle.

 

[diver]

I can't think of a player who isn't ripped to shreds on here daily. Even Bell and Brown are getting plenty of blame for their celebrations, drops, etc.

The thing is, there are only two options with your coach: keep him or get someone else. We can't halfway switch coaches. Since most of the board realizes Tomlin's a joke, they lean toward "get someone else," Of course that wouldn't fix EVERYTHING but as another poster pointed out, a new coach is likely to weed out a lot of Tomlin's ****** players.

He'd also be likely to know the difference between 17 points and 16 points.

Maybe. But I bet a brings in a few of his own ****** players. Unless you hire the perfect guy.

Again, this is not to say because all guys will have flaws, they should keep Tomlin. I just feel the need to remind people that changing the coach will not necessarily make everything better. And, I feel that some people believe that. I don't know. Sometimes we have to realize that some of the people posting on here might be 15 years old. They don't know anything, have no life experiences and have no frame of reference. I've been watching sports for over 40 years. One indisputable fact I have learned is when a new guy is brought in, things look hunky dory for a while (Jim Harbaugh would be an example of that), and then the warts that everyone has begin to show.

 

[Wingman]

1. Whatever quotes Tomlin has made that give you this impression, taking the action of bringing in refs to work with the players at practice shows that he isn't preparing the team the same way this week. Will it help? Who knows, but at least he's trying something. I would rather that he would have been proactive about this rather than reactive about the issue, but at least he's trying to change the approach.

2. How many "Fire Tomlin" threads do we need this week and why couldn't this have been posted in one of the others?

I liked it here.

 

[Vader]

this, I agree with.

Cowher and Tomlin are two very different coaches, even though their records are very similar.
I also wonder if the Rooney Rule had a lot to do with the hiring of Tomlin. Can you imagine the hypocritical blow-back had we not hired Tomlin or Ron Rivera?

There is no way IMHO that Tomlin even gets interviewed if he wasn't an African American. They never interviewed anybody from outside the org. that wasn't a minority. He had only been an DC for 1 year and he came to the Vikings from the bucs as a DB coach. The Vikings were dead last in the league against the pass that one year.

I believe Cowher was a "Players Coach" as well. However, Cowher was a "tough-love" guy. He wasn't afraid to get right in your face and tear you a new one when you screwed up and then it was over and done with. He chewed a player out, it was covered and they moved on. Tomlin on the other hand wants to be a "buddy". I wouldn't be shocked if he's got a spot in his house where he hangs out with some of the players now and then. Seriously.

Coach T seems far too interested in being liked by his players. At least that's how I see it.

To me both are/ were player's coaches. The difference to me is that Cowher knew what he wanted to do. He wanted a powerful running game, play action and limit turnovers on offense. On defense he wanted to force you to pass so he could use his OLBs to blitz the QB. You could watch him from the sidelines and he'd be talking to certain players describing what he wanted. He even noticed that Parker wouldn't breath when he was running.

Tomlin reminds me of a coach that is in over his head. He had only been in the NFL for 6 years prior to being a HC. He hadn't even been a DC but one year. He came into the league in 2001 as a DB coach. I have no idea what his offensive philosophy is or his defensive philosophy. I don't know what he wants other than to win. I have no idea how he plans to do it other than to keep doing the same thing... and hope that it is good enough.

 

[Vader]

Maybe. But I bet a brings in a few of his own ****** players. Unless you hire the perfect guy.

Again, this is not to say because all guys will have flaws, they should keep Tomlin. I just feel the need to remind people that changing the coach will not necessarily make everything better. And, I feel that some people believe that. I don't know. Sometimes we have to realize that some of the people posting on here might be 15 years old. They don't know anything, have no life experiences and have no frame of reference. I've been watching sports for over 40 years. One indisputable fact I have learned is when a new guy is brought in, things look hunky dory for a while (Jim Harbaugh would be an example of that), and then the warts that everyone has begin to show.

I've watched sports for over 35 years. Things don't always look hunky dory for awhile. I remember when the Cowboys brought in Johnson. They won 1 game his first year. They won 7 his next year and several of my friends wanted him fired. Then I remember Haslett coaching New Orleans. First year he was 10-6 but never achieved that again. Should they had stayed with him and not hired Peyton? He was only there 6 years.

Changing a coach doesn't always make things better.. but keeping one doesn't always make things better either. But Tomlin isn't going anywhere so it doesn't really matter. The Steelers aren't going to change anything because they are stuck in their ways. They want stability.

 

[SteelBuckeye]

I liked it here.

Good 'nuff

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Wingman again.

 

[titus]

I just have to comment on this. Is there nobody out there that sees the same things I do? I look at the team, and I don't see a particularly good coach. I don't see particularly good talent eval. I don't see good contract structure. I see a team that is from top to bottom, mediocre. To me, this started immediately after Dan Rooney decided to be the Muslim's Irish lackey. Every time I see little Arty III talk, I see a spoiled little brat that cannot fill daddy's considerable shoes. He seems out of touch with the players, coaches, and the fans. Kinda reminds me of Jerry a little, but not as smarmy. IDK what the solution is, but the problems seem to start at the top... Come back home, Dan.

 

[Bigappleyinzer]

Bored, Wingman?

 

[CoolieMan]

I liked it here.

and I liked it here.......

 

[Stryker]

and I liked it here.......

No you didn't.

This conversation is another retread. Tomlin is nothing without Cowher's players. Holy hand-grenades.... Well, unless Cowher won the SB every year as a head coach, that analogy means NOTHING. Cowher did his fair ******* share of losing HUGE games. 4 AFCCs and a SB before catching lightning in a bottle. And his first SB appearance he nearly lost on a hail Mary from Jim ******* Harbaugh!!! Tomlin coached the players he had, and he succeeded with them. You want to diminish him for that, that's your witch hunt, not mine.

I suppose 1998 and 1999 didn't happen. Don't give me trickle down economics Vader, you're not tinkling on me with that one. I suppose those Hotel de Steelers needed a new maitre d, or busboy, or whatever terrible service industry analogy that can be fathomed.

This is our rebuilding time, and I feel we're coming out of the tunnel. We're 2-2. We've beat the Browns, got killed by the Ravens, beat a good team, lost to a bad team. I can see that this year our offense has the potential to put up numbers, and we're going to need it until the D gets set (and the injuries don't help). The D is in flux this year. 30 pts is the number we need from the O, until the D can stop the dumb ****. Really we're not far away. Bad penalties are killing this D, if you don't think we can correct that in the next 3 months, than I don't know what to say to you. And if we can't fix the penalties, your September knee jerk reactions will have merit.

"Tomlin hasn't done ****", "he hasn't built anything." Perhaps now is the time he is putting his thumbprint on this franchise? 'Cowher's' players are retiring. I see young players, that I think have promise. I like our ILBs, Heyward, our NTs, our young Safeties, and our Offense is one tackle away from being special. Our C, RG, RBs, WRs and QB are set. We can always use more talent at WR and TE (as the 2 TE sets will be the way to attack in a couple years), but we have the ability to rack up points now. I want to see our WRs progress (aside from AB), because I think they have the ability to produce.

Take a breath people, it's not like we started 0-4 or were outscored 92-10 in our first 2 games to divisional opponents. Because even that terrible 92-10 start, we made the playoffs, and I think this team has more potential and talent than that one.

 

[antdrewjosh]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Cope again.

 

[topseed]

I loved Kordell. Was pissed when he was benched for Maddox.

Somehow, this doesn't surprise me.

 

[antdrewjosh]

Somehow, this doesn't surprise me.

You have a point? Cause once Tommy Gunn started slinging the ball i had no problem with the decision to bench kordell

 

[Black & Gold Bleeder]

I loved Kordell. Was pissed when he was benched for Maddox..

wah? are you ******* kidding me? You must have been 7 yrs old then.