Tomlin....he's driving a proud organization straight in to the ground.

[tapeANaspirin2it]

Switzer was a nobody Obx. Lets just forget his long career at Oklahoma fielding a championship team every year.

Switzer cheated at Oklahoma which is why he was sitting home when Jerry wanted a figurehead coach. He hated Jimmy getting credit for building the Cowboys so he brought in Switzer, because he knew that nobody would credit Switzer with anything.

 

[Vader]

What's interesting is that from the time Johnson was fired the Cowboys look almost identical to what is happening to the Steelers now. They won a SB 2 years after Johnson left but didn't win another one. They made the playoffs 5 out of 7 years. Then things started going south after Johnson's players started to get old, retire or leave.

 

[Stryker]

I understand the excuses about Cowher's QBs, but O'Donnell and Stewart were both good enough to win with those defenses. Hell Dilfer could do it with an all world D.

All this Tomlin BS diminishing him for what he did with Cowher's players. Hell Cowher couldn't ******* win it with his players until Whiz changed up the post season game plan away from run, run, pass. Until that superbowl, I had to suffer the gut wrenching losses, year after year, in AFCC home games (something Tomlin has yet to do).

Can you imagine if Tomlin was sitting at 0-4 in AFCC games and 0-1 in Superbowls? I think someone would put out a hit on him if he lost one at home.

I don't hate Cowher. I like him in fact. My only point is the bias seems overly skewed at Tomlin's shortcomings while forgetting all of Cowher's. I still remember when Cowher's identity was the coach who couldn't win the big game.

 

[antdrewjosh]

I understand the excuses about Cowher's QBs, but O'Donnell and Stewart were both good enough to win with those defenses. Hell Dilfer could do it with an all world D.

All this Tomlin BS diminishing him for what he did with Cowher's players. Hell Cowher couldn't ******* win it with his players until Whiz changed up the post season game plan away from run, run, pass. Until that superbowl, I had to suffer the gut wrenching losses, year after year, in AFCC home games (something Tomlin has yet to do).

Can you imagine if Tomlin was sitting at 0-4 in AFCC games and 0-1 in Superbowls? I think someone would put out a hit on him if he lost one at home.

I don't hate Cowher. I like him in fact. My only point is the bias seems overly skewed at Tomlin's shortcomings while forgetting all of Cowher's. I still remember when Cowher's identity was the coach who couldn't win the big game.

This!!! This is the only reason i defend Tomlin like I do. These very reasons you outlined. And I loved Cowher. To see him getting riled up, spit flying, was awesome. But he wasnt perfect no one is. He was very good coach and the Rooneys keep good coaches thru thick and thin. If his wife hadnt of gotten sick who knows he is probably still here. And that would be fine by me but he is not. Tomlin came and to me has had major success. I dont care who players. He coached who was here. You dont just snap your fingers and replace legends and thats exactly who some of these guys were, legends. To not totally suck and still win in the draft takes alot of skill yes and alot of luck too. Cohwer was able to benefit from the Rooneys patience and go7-9 6-10 and whatever we were in 2003 keep his job. Going 6-10 means a high pick. The Steelers lucked out that Ben was there at 12. How many think in a do over does Ben last to 12? We are lucky the Giants didnt just say screw you Eli and take Ben he was the no 2 Qb on their board. Tomlin has gone 8-8 twice. It sucks but not enough to pick in the top ten either. Still we do have some young guys to build around and I believe we arent far off from being back in the hunt.

 

[FAB802]

Cowher was a decent coach, but he turtled up in close games as much or more than any coach but Marty Shitenheimer. Tomlin being in charge while the team is playing like **** for a long stretch doesn't mean Cowher was better than he was. One has zero to do with the other.

I don't care for Tomlin at this point, he hasn't gotten any better, and frankly the team is going to **** on his watch. As far as I'm concerned none of the coaches should be feeling comfy, but that's not the way the Steelers roll. Nobody's going anywhere any time soon, and neither is this team. Oh, and the GM can kick rocks too.

 

[Vader]

I understand the excuses about Cowher's QBs, but O'Donnell and Stewart were both good enough to win with those defenses. Hell Dilfer could do it with an all world D.

All this Tomlin BS diminishing him for what he did with Cowher's players. Hell Cowher couldn't ******* win it with his players until Whiz changed up the post season game plan away from run, run, pass. Until that superbowl, I had to suffer the gut wrenching losses, year after year, in AFCC home games (something Tomlin has yet to do).

Can you imagine if Tomlin was sitting at 0-4 in AFCC games and 0-1 in Superbowls? I think someone would put out a hit on him if he lost one at home.

I don't hate Cowher. I like him in fact. My only point is the bias seems overly skewed at Tomlin's shortcomings while forgetting all of Cowher's. I still remember when Cowher's identity was the coach who couldn't win the big game.

Stats please. Show me the run, run, pass, punt plays in the AFCC games. Let's look at some facts shall we?

1st loss: O'Donnell threw the ball 54 times against the Chargers. They rushed it 26 times. O'Donnell rushed it once. So 25 real rushes. No run, run, pass, punt in this game.

2nd loss: Kordell threw the ball 36 times. They ran it 27 times. They would have been better off running it more because Kordell threw 3 interceptions. No run, run, pass, punt in this game.

3rd loss: Kordell threw it 42. They ran it 22 times. Kordell ran 8 of those times. He also threw 3 interceptions. No run, run, pass, punt in this game.

4th loss: Ben threw it 24 times and has 3 interceptions. His first pass was picked off. They ran it 37 times for 163 yards but couldn't over come the rookie QBs picks. Many run, run, pass, punt (or Int) in this game. But what else do you do when your QB is off and you are running all over the other team?

See this is my problem with the "run, run, pass, punt" BS that gets thrown around. It is not true. Every single game the Steelers throw more than the team they are playing against. Brady only threw the ball 21 times in that game. If the "run, run, pass, punt" myth were true then you'd have twice as many runs as passes but it's almost the exact opposite of that.

 

[Idioteque]

Very simply put: to support Tomlin at this point, either you feel the team is humming along fine, or you feel the HC has no hand in a team's success or failure.

If it's the former, I'd like to know about all of the positive you're seeing.

If it's the latter, then why hire a HC at all?

 

[diver]

Very simply put: to support Tomlin at this point, either you feel the team is humming along fine, or you feel the HC has no hand in a team's success or failure.

If it's the former, I'd like to know about all of the positive you're seeing.

If it's the latter, then why hire a HC at all?

It is not support, it is simply not adhering to absolutes. Tomlin certainly has a hand in this mess. However, so do the players. I have a hard time understanding when someone says when a player fumbles or does a stupid penalty that it is "all on Tomlin." It makes no sense. That is the objection, the absolutes. Also, the knowledge that if/when they hire a new guy, eventually he will have warts, too. Maybe some of the same ones.

 

[antdrewjosh]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to diver again.

 

[tapeANaspirin2it]

It is not support, it is simply not adhering to absolutes. Tomlin certainly has a hand in this mess. However, so do the players. I have a hard time understanding when someone says when a player fumbles or does a stupid penalty that it is "all on Tomlin." It makes no sense. That is the objection, the absolutes. Also, the knowledge that if/when they hire a new guy, eventually he will have warts, too. Maybe some of the same ones.

And who picked these players?

Let's not act like these are complaints over a single game. This has been a steady decline. A bad game is on the players. 2 years worth of bad games are on the coaches and GM.

 

[JJ_Steel]

And who picked these players?

Let's not act like these are complaints over a single game. This has been a steady decline. A bad game is on the players. 2 years worth of bad games are on the coaches and GM.

Spot on. Does anyone and I mean anyone see anything in Tomlin that he can be the guy to turn the Steelers around and into a power ?

 

[keslerclan]

I realized Tomlin has very little command to change the players with how Bell responded in his twitter about how he is NOT going to stop his first down celebration bs and how kids look up to LeVeon Bell (referring to HIMSELF in the 3rd person) as IF he didn't just get busted for smokin' weed! What a slow-blinking moron.

 

[Idioteque]

It is not support, it is simply not adhering to absolutes. Tomlin certainly has a hand in this mess. However, so do the players. I have a hard time understanding when someone says when a player fumbles or does a stupid penalty that it is "all on Tomlin." It makes no sense. That is the objection, the absolutes. Also, the knowledge that if/when they hire a new guy, eventually he will have warts, too. Maybe some of the same ones.

I haven't seen anyone claim it's "all on Tomlin." Just that years and years of the same patterns fall on the coaching staff.

Imagine you run a restaurant. Your wait staff is only mediocre, and a couple of your servers are just awful, They **** up orders, they text in the dining room, they show up late, etc. That's certainly all on them. Now imagine that a few years go by and nothing changes. The service is still so-so, customers are still complaining, and you still have a handful of sheer fuckups (some of whom you've given new contracts to). You bring in new servers from time to time, and most of them are mediocre to bad as well.

Are you, the manager, at fault for any of that? Or is it just a coincidence that you keep giving brilliant management and everyone just forgets it or doesn't pay attention to you? And if THAT'S the case.. then how good of a manager/leader are you?

 

[diver]

I haven't seen anyone claim it's "all on Tomlin." Just that years and years of the same patterns fall on the coaching staff.

Imagine you run a restaurant. Your wait staff is only mediocre, and a couple of your servers are just awful, They **** up orders, they text in the dining room, they show up late, etc. That's certainly all on them. Now imagine that a few years go by and nothing changes. The service is still so-so, customers are still complaining, and you still have a handful of sheer fuckups (some of whom you've given new contracts to). You bring in new servers from time to time, and most of them are mediocre to bad as well.

Are you, the manager, at fault for any of that? Or is it just a coincidence that you keep giving brilliant management and everyone just forgets it or doesn't pay attention to you? And if THAT'S the case.. then how good of a manager/leader are you?

If you haven't seen that, you are not paying attention.

I agree with a lot of your assessment. I don't care if they fire Tomlin tomorrow. My problem is absolving the players. My problem is this idea that if they bring in another guy, all this will be fixed. That is childish thinking. I seriously question if any coach can keep guys attention and focus for more than a year or so.

 

[antdrewjosh]

And who picked these players?

Let's not act like these are complaints over a single game. This has been a steady decline. A bad game is on the players. 2 years worth of bad games are on the coaches and GM.

And thats fine i have no problem with the above none. But dont turn around and give me REASONS for Cowher and dont consider them excuses. Who picked Cowher QBs? Thats the first thing people say. Well Cowher had so and so. Who picked them. He had say in those decisions too. Cowher was able to stay and he benefited from his down years by having some good picks to use to rebound. Tomlin down years havent been as bad and the team wasnt been able to get those prime picks. The lowest is 15. Yes the Steelers drafted better under Cowher. Some of that in my opinion is position, some of it is being the one of the few teams playing the 3-4 at the time. No one knows how the Steelers would draft if they sucked so bad and were in the top ten of the draft. Anyway Tomlin would probably escorted out of Pittsburgh if he did go 5-11 anyway.

 

[Omar10213245]

If you haven't seen that, you are not paying attention.



I agree with a lot of your assessment. I don't care if they fire Tomlin tomorrow. My problem is absolving the players. My problem is this idea that if they bring in another guy, all this will be fixed. That is childish thinking. I seriously question if any coach can keep guys attention and focus for more than a year or so.

If a new, more competent coach and his staff come along, I surmise that many of our current players wouldnt be on the team very long. Soo either that new coach will make things worse, or, orrrrrr...make the team better through sound personnel choices?? And yes, believe it or not, coaches who can keep their team focused/motivated for "more than a year" actually DO exist, theyre are multiple coaches that fit that profile in the league

 

[AggieSteel]

I haven't seen anyone claim it's "all on Tomlin." Just that years and years of the same patterns fall on the coaching staff.

Imagine you run a restaurant. Your wait staff is only mediocre, and a couple of your servers are just awful, They **** up orders, they text in the dining room, they show up late, etc. That's certainly all on them. Now imagine that a few years go by and nothing changes. The service is still so-so, customers are still complaining, and you still have a handful of sheer fuckups (some of whom you've given new contracts to). You bring in new servers from time to time, and most of them are mediocre to bad as well.

Are you, the manager, at fault for any of that? Or is it just a coincidence that you keep giving brilliant management and everyone just forgets it or doesn't pay attention to you? And if THAT'S the case.. then how good of a manager/leader are you?

And I'm sorry but pointing to any flaws of Cowher doesn't make Tomlin any better of a coach. Personally I don't want Cowher back either because he turtled it up in big games. Can we bring Cowher back as GM and not coach? Because I'd be ALL for that.

 

[Black & Gold Bleeder]

Tomlin The driving cat.

 

[Omar10213245]

View attachment 583 Tomlin The driving cat.

He's no Toonces but I guess he'll do

 

[Vader]

And thats fine i have no problem with the above none. But dont turn around and give me REASONS for Cowher and dont consider them excuses. Who picked Cowher QBs? Thats the first thing people say. Well Cowher had so and so. Who picked them. He had say in those decisions too. Cowher was able to stay and he benefited from his down years by having some good picks to use to rebound. Tomlin down years havent been as bad and the team wasnt been able to get those prime picks. The lowest is 15. Yes the Steelers drafted better under Cowher. Some of that in my opinion is position, some of it is being the one of the few teams playing the 3-4 at the time. No one knows how the Steelers would draft if they sucked so bad and were in the top ten of the draft. Anyway Tomlin would probably escorted out of Pittsburgh if he did go 5-11 anyway.

You have been told thousands of times the difference but you are so hard wired in your Tomlin love that you refuse to accept it. Cowher wasn't the only one drafting. We KNOW for a fact that Donahoe had final say because he draft Edwards over Kearse. This started a power struggle where Cowher won. You have NO idea if Cowher wanted to draft another QB and was shot down as well. But you continue to want to equate Cowher's years and Tomlin's years as being identical when nothing could be further from the truth.

Also we know how Tomlin would have drafted if they had sucked worse (which they didn't suck as bad as a couple of Cowher's teams because they had a franchise QB). He would have picked many of the same players. We know this because he said so. He was going to take Jones last year no matter what. We know he was in the top 6 players on their board. HE SAID SO. This has happened several times over the years. Hell dobre even charted it. So knowing that Tombert was going to take Jones even if they drafted 6th overall makes your point about not sucking enough to draft better players moot.

Also Tomlin deserves to get escorted out of town if he goes 5-11 with this team. You act as if finding franchise QBs is easy. It's not. I judge a coach by how he drafts and how he coaches with the talent he has. Cowher took Kordell to the AFCC game TWICE. He was always rebuilding because the Steelers couldn't afford the players. He was in a power struggle with the GM. But I know none of that matters to you because you brush it all off. You want to judge coaches without context.

 

[antdrewjosh]

It is stated no where how much say Cowher had in picks between him and Donahue. Show me where its says he had none. Show me where its says Donahue had all say. The only thing you can point to is Donahue taking Edwards over Kearse. That doesnt mean Cowher had no say that means Donahue had final say. That doenst mean they didnt agree on picks before that. They had a disagreement. Cowher said him or me. Cowher won. When did Donahue leave? How long was it before Ben was drafted? And we all know the Rooneys had to step in and take Ben. You keep saying Cowher took Kordell. He played Kordell. He liked Kordell. Kiss on the sidelines remember that. He wasnt forced to play Kordell Stewart. If Kordell was the sole issue what happened in between those championship game years?

We dont know who the Steelers would have drafted just because Jones was in their top 6 doesnt mean they would of taken him. You dont know that. Thats like saying they would of taken Timmons over Willis just because Tomlin liked Timmons. No one knows. Show me the list of players available at 6 that were on that list that guarantees they were going to take Jones over everyone. You cant you dont know.

Who said anything about finding a franchise QBs was easy. Cowher didnt bother to try either now did he? He was perfectly fine going with what he had even resurrecting Tommy Maddox.from the XFL. You feel you are one player away from winning a Super Bowl you go get that player. You lobby for that player. Did Cowher? No he was fine until Ben fell into his lap.

Lets not over state Cowher issues. He had a good run with the players he inherited from Noll. He had to replace some who got old(and did) and some who left for greener pastures. No different then now. Tomlin has to replace players he inherited from Cowher and players who left for greener pastures because even with the new stadium the Steelers still dont over spend. They have done better keeping their players but not all and they still dont make big splashes in free agency.

So im supposed to believe Tomlin makes all draft decisions and Cowher didnt. So Cowher won his power struggle with Donahue only to have no power over Colbert. Then Tomlin comes and has all the power and Colbert is just yes man. Yeah that makes sense.. Tomlin is to blame for thos team not addressing the CB position but Cowher has no blame in addressing the QB position from 92 til 2004.

 

[Vader]

Everything you just wrote is YOUR opinion and no base in fact. I KNOW that Cowher didn't have final say. Because IF he did then Edwards would have never been drafted. So you are WRONG. I never said that he had no say but he didn't have final say. That's what the issue was with him and Donahoe. If Cowher had final say then WTF was the power struggle over? It makes NO sense. But you keep saying "nobody knows". Well hell yes we do know.

You keep conflating, twisting and turning everything. You take part truths and turn them into out right wrongs. You KNOW that Cowher replaced almost HALF the team in 3 years. You KNOW that Tomlin to this DAY hasn't replaced anyone except maybe Ward with Brown. You act as if Tomlin and Cowher had identical situations when the truth is they did NOT. You KNOW that Tomlin doesn't have to worry about losing FAs the way Cowher did yet you continue to spew this narrative that just isn't true. You knows these things and still are either such a Tomlin lover you can't admit it or you are purposely being deceptive.

 

[GoSteelers]

all tomlin is? an 8-8 coach he'll be 8-8 this season and next and the season after that and so on! I for one am tired of 8-8 seasons, just find someone who we all can be get behind, white, black, brown, green or opaque(sp)!!!!

 

[antdrewjosh]

So where are your facts? They disagreed on one pick? How many did they agree on? For example did they agree on Stewart? We know they disagreed on Edwards and Kearse what we dont know is what picks they agreed on. From 92 til 97 we are riding high. Here comes 98 what happened? 99? 2000? Who is to blame? Oh nobody you say. Lets blame economics. Why werent there guys behind the guys who got old or left ready to step in and play. The Steelers not being able to keep players wasnt a new thing. I mean all I hear now is how Tombert should of replaced all these great players. They have had ample time. Easy as baking a cake.

So here comes Colbert. Who has final say now? Still no QB. Here is Bill chance to get rid of the one guy holding him back. Did he? We all agree Bill had more say then he did under Donahue correct? So if he didnt want Kordell why is he still there. Finally they tire of Kordell and Cowher inserts Maddox. Or was that Colbert? Who was more then willing to bypass a potential Franchise QB and keep doing it the way he had the last twelve years until he was nudged into it. People say Rivers was his man well ok trade up to get him then. Nope not going to do that either.

Was Wallace not a free agent? There is still a limit this team will go on free agents. They still dont jump into free agency and get players they need. It has to be the perfect amount of circumstances.

I never said they both had to deal with the same issues. Never. Both have had different things to deal with. You wanna blame economics restraints for Cowher, I in turn can say Goodell changing the whole damn game around has affected the Steelers just as much if not more then anyone else. But thats just an excuse I know.

 

[antdrewjosh]

Also you keep saying my Tomlin love. When I have stated over and over I loved Cowher. He was the coach who finally turned us into a consistent winner. I was too young for the 70s teams.