We are being badly misled about the Ukraine-Russia war

[Booted]

You seem to have the Russian narrative of things down pat.

So what that Ukraine was once part of Russia? Lots of places belonged to someone else in the past. Are all such claims valid in your book?

Should Germany try to take back Kaliningrad? It belonged to them for a long time, and I'm sure they currently view Russia's control over it as a threat to their security.

No one forced these countries to join NATO. They applied because they spent most of the 20th century under the thumb of Russia and do not want to again.

It's not like Viktor Yanukovych was notorious for placing Russia's interests ahead of Ukraine's and the Ukrainian people having enough of it, or anything. It had to be some insidious plot from the US government that overthrew him.

Crimea and Donetsk were militarily seized by Russia before any votes were held, making them illegitimate. We've seen the same thing happen in the Kherson and Zaporizhzhia regions during the war.

I'm sure there are a lot of ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine who want to be part of Russia, as there are Hispanics in parts of Texas and California who would like to be part of Mexico.

Should we oblige them? I mean Texas and California were part of Mexico at one time and fair is fair, right?




The only one ******* with other governments in this situation is Russia in Ukraine.

You seem to have miraculous insight into the heads of Putin and the Kremlin regarding their intentions toward eastern Europe.

Nevermind that they will practically have Romania and Moldova surrounded from the north and east if they overtake Ukraine, and their border of control with Poland will be expanded from what it already is between their control of Belarus and Kaliningrad.



Yeah, that must be it. Russia launching the largest land war in Europe since WW2 has nothing to do with it.


None of which would be happening if Russia didn't invade the country

 

[Steeltime]

You seem to have the Russian narrative of things down pat.

Sorry the truth hurts. Shouldn't you bust out the "Russian agent" claim about now?

So what that Ukraine was once part of Russia? Lots of places belonged to someone else in the past. Are all such claims valid in your book?

Ukraine was part of Russia for 200 years. That is much longer than Arizona has been part of the United States. Would you be fine with Arizona saying, "Hey, we are breaking away and becoming an ally of your greatest enemy and will invite their soldiers to our new nation to hang out on your border"? And if the United States sent in military to prevent the secession - you know, like we did in 1861 - for Russia to send billions of dollars in cash and weapons to Arizona to fight a war with the United States?

And I presume you believe that the United States had no right to engage in a Civil War in 1861 - right?

Should Germany try to take back Kaliningrad? It belonged to them for a long time, and I'm sure they currently view Russia's control over it as a threat to their security.

You have no problem with funding wars, so sure, more wars. You bet. Can never have enough wars! Not like we are in debt or anything.

No one forced these countries to join NATO. They applied because they spent most of the 20th century under the thumb of Russia and do not want to again.

NATO was meant to guard against invasion by the Eastern bloc. The Eastern bloc and the Soviet Union are as dead as Stalin. Why does NATO even exist any more?? And why does it keep expanding towards Russia? Explain that.

It's not like Viktor Yanukovych was notorious for placing Russia's interests ahead of Ukraine's and the Ukrainian people having enough of it, or anything. It had to be some insidious plot from the US government that overthrew him.

You are just making excuses for a United States-backed coup. Like it or not, Yanukovych was elected and overthrown in a coup sponsored by the United States.

Washington Helped Trigger Ukraine War

Crimea and Donetsk were militarily seized by Russia before any votes were held, making them illegitimate. We've seen the same thing happen in the Kherson and Zaporizhzhia regions during the war.

So the United States should return its land to the Native Americans? Don't recall any vote by the Native Americans approving of the takeover.

Crimea voted to ally with Russia. Ukraine's demand that Crimea be "returned" after the coup changed the leadership is no different than the South demanding that the breakaway states be "returned" to the Confederacy.

I'm sure there are a lot of ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine who want to be part of Russia, as there are Hispanics in parts of Texas and California who would like to be part of Mexico.

Should we oblige them? I mean Texas and California were part of Mexico at one time and fair is fair, right?

You are arguing against Ukraine being independent of Russia. You get that, right? I mean, if you mock Texas or California becoming part of Mexico again, then you are mocking Ukraine being "independent" of the nation under which it was governed for 200 years.

Or do you fail to realize that?

The only one ******* with other governments in this situation is Russia in Ukraine.

Holee-sheeit. You mean like how Russia overthrew governments in Iraq, and Libya, and Ukraine?

Wait ...

You seem to have miraculous insight into the heads of Putin and the Kremlin regarding their intentions toward eastern Europe.

No, just the ability to read.

Nevermind that they will practically have Romania and Moldova surrounded from the north and east if they overtake Ukraine, and their border of control with Poland will be expanded from what it already is between their control of Belarus and Kaliningrad.

So you want to overthrow the Belarussian government as well, right?

Yeah, that must be it. Russia launching the largest land war in Europe since WW2 has nothing to do with it.

The United States has launched three land wars bigger than this.

I guess it's okay to launch massive wars in Asia and the Middle East ...

None of which would be happening if Russia didn't invade the country

None of which would have happened if the United States did not sponsor a coup, then arm and train Ukrainians, then treat Ukraine like a NATO member and move to admit Ukraine to NATO then fail to assure Russia that NATO would not be put on Russia's doorstep.

And these fictional threats posed by Russia are laughable. The United States has invaded more countries over the last 50 years than Russia. So I guess you would not have a problem with Russia funding and arming an enemy engaging in war against the United States?

 

[Punxsutawney]

Sorry the truth hurts. Shouldn't you bust out the "Russian agent" claim about now?

Don't need to, as I know you're not an agent, just a proponent of Russian narratives on events, as many US conservatives seem to be nowadays.

Ukraine was part of Russia for 200 years. That is much longer than Arizona has been part of the United States. Would you be fine with Arizona saying, "Hey, we are breaking away and becoming an ally of your greatest enemy and will invite their soldiers to our new nation to hang out on your border"? And if the United States sent in military to prevent the secession - you know, like we did in 1861 - for Russia to send billions of dollars in cash and weapons to Arizona to fight a war with the United States?

And I presume you believe that the United States had no right to engage in a Civil War in 1861 - right?

You act as if countries like Ukraine separated from Russia against the will of Moscow.

Russia essentially let them go, granting their independence, because they could not hold the empire together any longer.

Comparing the Soviet collapse, with the former Soviet states choosing to align themselves with the US, to the southern states in the US breaking from the union is just strange.

You have no problem with funding wars, so sure, more wars. You bet. Can never have enough wars! Not like we are in debt or anything.

I wasn't too fond of Iraq or Afghanistan, but don't have much issue with this, as long as American forces are not sent to Ukraine.

We also will not come close to spending as much in Ukraine we as did in the Middle East, as this war will be over within the next few years, one way or the other, as long as do not do something incredibly stupid by directly intervening.

NATO was meant to guard against invasion by the Eastern bloc. The Eastern bloc and the Soviet Union are as dead as Stalin. Why does NATO even exist any more?? And why does it keep expanding towards Russia? Explain that.

What country controlled the Soviet Union and the eastern bloc?

Maybe you should pose your question about the relevancy of NATO to all the countries in eastern Europe that rushed to join it after the Soviet collapse, including the Fins and Swedes following the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

You are just making excuses for a United States-backed coup. Like it or not, Yanukovych was elected and overthrown in a coup sponsored by the United States.

Washington Helped Trigger Ukraine War

He was ultimately elected and overthrown by the people of Ukraine.

There's no doubt we supported his ousting once momentum built, but the notion that Ukrainians took to the streets to overthrow him basically because we told them to is ridiculous.

So the United States should return its land to the Native Americans? Don't recall any vote by the Native Americans approving of the takeover.

More absurd analogies.

The native Americans were not part of an official sovereign state with clearly defined borders.

You are arguing against Ukraine being independent of Russia. You get that, right? I mean, if you mock Texas or California becoming part of Mexico again, then you are mocking Ukraine being "independent" of the nation under which it was governed for 200 years.

You're really reaching hard with this ****.

Ukraine actually became independent. Texas and California never have been

Holee-sheeit. You mean like how Russia overthrew governments in Iraq, and Libya, and Ukraine?

Not sure how our stupid wars justify Russia's, but OK.

No,just the ability to read.

Russian propaganda isn't for me, but whatever floats your boat.

So, you want to overthrow the Belarussian government as well, right?

Don't worry, the Russian military presence there precludes that from ever happening.

They also have troops in Moldova and Georgia in addition to Ukraine, but no imperial ambitions at all, apparently.

I guess you would not have a problem with Russia funding and arming an enemy engaging in war against the United States?

Ukraine became an enemy of Russia only because Russia chose to make it one once Ukraine decided not to play ball politically.

It's why so many eastern Europeans want into NATO. They don't want to be intimidated by and dictated to by the Russians. They'd been there and done that in the last century.

Perhaps, the Russians should do some inner reflection as to why so many of those countries would rather align themselves with the US and western Europe, despite our flaws, instead of launching wars based on the butthurt of rejection.

 

[ZonaBurgh]

Well, I for one won't be choosing sides as to which country is righteous in this confrontation.
My standpoint is that we shouldn't be supporting either one of them.

 

[Steeltime]

Well, I for one won't be choosing sides as to which country is righteous in this confrontation.
My standpoint is that we shouldn't be supporting either one of them.

Or sending $200 billion of our tax dollars to a demonstrably corrupt government as part of the conflict that does not involve us. At all. In any way.

 

[Steeltime]

Don't need to, as I know you're not an agent, just a proponent of Russian narratives on events, as many US conservatives seem to be nowadays.

And moron liberals, "RuSsIa BaD GuY!"

Why? Serious question - corrupt regimes throughout the world. Why is Russia the target of such staged vitriol?

You act as if countries like Ukraine separated from Russia against the will of Moscow.

Russia essentially let them go, granting their independence, because they could not hold the empire together any longer.

Russia "let them go" when the empire crumbled and the United States crushed the regime. The American empire is now crumbling because the detestable traitors running our government want that to happen. Can hardly wait for you quislings to tell us how great it is when China funds civil war in this country.

Comparing the Soviet collapse, with the former Soviet states choosing to align themselves with the US, to the southern states in the US breaking from the union is just strange.

Only because you are too stewed with the current narrative and have no historical perspective. Ukraine broke away from its very longtime sovereign overseer nation, and the Confederate states broke away from the sovereign power that had overseen them for MUCH less time than Russia had Ukraine. The analogy is spot on. You just don't like the comparison because it does not support your "rUsSiA BaD" narrative.

I wasn't too fond of Iraq or Afghanistan, but don't have much issue with this, as long as American forces are not sent to Ukraine.

We also will not come close to spending as much in Ukraine we as did in the Middle East, as this war will be over within the next few years, one way or the other, as long as do not do something incredibly stupid by directly intervening.

Do you genuinely not understand that is what the current morons in charge want?!? Seriously??

These imbeciles shriek that they will never end their support for Ukraine, which is losing the war and will inevitably lose since it cannot defeat the vastly superior Russian forces. Jesus Christ, Russia defeated Napoleon and Hitler, and you think ******* Zelensky is going to beat Russia?

So when Russia continues its advance and Dementia Joe promises never to abandon the democracy without elections, what do you think is the next step?? The moronic sheep bleating the "rUsSiA BaD" narrative are pushing this inevitable outcome.

What country controlled the Soviet Union and the eastern bloc?

Maybe you should pose your question about the relevancy of NATO to all the countries in eastern Europe that rushed to join it after the Soviet collapse, including the Fins and Swedes following the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

I called Zelensky. He told me he wanted to join NATO to dump all the country's defense costs onto the United States. I suspect that is the incentive for most nations.

NATO is as useful today as an instruction manual for an 8-track player.

He was ultimately elected and overthrown by the people of Ukraine. There's no doubt we supported his ousting once momentum built, but the notion that Ukrainians took to the streets to overthrow him basically because we told them to is ridiculous.

The notion that the CIA is not primarily in the business of regime change, including Ukraine, is laughably naive. And just plain dumb.

The Ukrainian "revolution" was started and funded by the CIA.

An explosive New York Times exposé by Adam Entous and Michael Schwirtz sheds light on major developments preceding the full-scale invasion of Ukraine. According to the report, the Ukrainian government entered into a wide-ranging partnership with the CIA against Russia. This cooperation, which involved the establishment of as many as 12 secret CIA “forward operating bases” along Ukraine’s border with Russia, began not with Russia’s 2022 invasion, but just over 10 years ago.

CIA Interfering in Ukraine for a Decade

More absurd analogies. The native Americans were not part of an official sovereign state with clearly defined borders.

You may wish to speak to Native Americans about that claim.

Spoiler alert: they call bullshit.

You're really reaching hard with this ****. Ukraine actually became independent. Texas and California never have been

Uhhh, Republic of Texas??

Not sure how our stupid wars justify Russia's, but OK.

Because this is yet another stupid war by the United States where you are gulping down their lies yet again. Jeez, fool me once and all that.

Russian propaganda isn't for me, but whatever floats your boat.

Not spending hundreds of billions of dollars on a lost cause or suicidal conflict where we don't have any goddamn interest in the conflict.

Don't worry, the Russian military presence there precludes that from ever happening.

They also have troops in Moldova and Georgia in addition to Ukraine, but no imperial ambitions at all, apparently.

United States has troops in every nation around Russia except Belarus and Moldava.

How many Russian troops are in Mexico or Canada? Because that is the comparison.

Ukraine became an enemy of Russia only because Russia chose to make it one once Ukraine decided not to play ball politically.

No, the conflict is centered on the fact that the United States funded a coup in Ukraine, funds overt CIA operations in the country, and refuses to advise that Ukraine will not become the 33rd (!!) member of NATO.

It's why so many eastern Europeans want into NATO. They don't want to be intimidated by and dictated to by the Russians. They'd been there and done that in the last century.

Perhaps, the Russians should do some inner reflection as to why so many of those countries would rather align themselves with the US and western Europe, despite our flaws, instead of launching wars based on the butthurt of rejection.

Again, this fiction that Russia is slavering to invade countries is idiotic. In the past 50 years, Russia's "invasions" consist of ... Ukraine. In the same time frame, the United States invaded Vietnam, Grenada, Afghanistan, Kuwait, and Irag. According to your theory, we should have no issue when Russia or China funds a collection of nations that put hundreds of thousands of troops on OUR border to counter yet another US-led invasion.

Because that is the unfortunate truth. The United States has started vastly more wars in my lifetime than Russia. The United States has invaded far more countries in my lifetime than Russia. The United States has killed more foreign nationals in wars over the past 50 years than Russia. So its well past time for self-reflection for the United States.

 

[Punxsutawney]

And moron liberals, "RuSsIa BaD GuY!"

Why? Serious question - corrupt regimes throughout the world. Why is Russia the target of such staged vitriol?

Because they're pretty obviously destabilizing Europe, a place in which the US has various interests. Same with the Chinese in Asia.

One can definitely argue we've been doing the same in the Middle East, but the Russians meddle their as well with their support of Syria and Iran.

Only because you are too stewed with the current narrative and have no historical perspective. Ukraine broke away from its very longtime sovereign overseer nation, and the Confederate states broke away from the sovereign power that had overseen them for MUCH less time than Russia had Ukraine. The analogy is spot on. You just don't like the comparison because it does not support your "rUsSiA BaD" narrative.

Ukraine broke away from a collapsing empire under virtually no protest from Russia, while the southern states broke away amid strong opposition from the rest of the country.

Pretty big difference.

The Russians feeling they're in position to once again impose their will on Ukraine after 20-30 years does not give them the right to do so.

So when Russia continues its advance and Dementia Joe promises never to abandon the democracy without elections, what do you think is the next step?? The moronic sheep bleating the "rUsSiA BaD" narrative are pushing this inevitable outcome.

The US is not sending troops to Ukraine, but we'll keep sending them aid as long as they're willing and able to fight, adding to the costs to Russia.

Once Ukraine's military fails, the aid will stop, Russia will conquer Ukraine, and you can rejoice!

The conquest will come with Russia spending significantly more relative to GDP than we are, while losing 100's of thousands of their young men, but hooray for Russia.

I called Zelensky. He told me he wanted to join NATO to dump all the country's defense costs onto the United States. I suspect that is the incentive for most nations.

I'm sure Russia would gladly subsidize the security of these countries, but none of them other than Belarus seem to want that for some reason.

The notion that the CIA is not primarily in the business of regime change, including Ukraine, is laughably naive. And just plain dumb.

The Ukrainian "revolution" was started and funded by the CIA.



CIA Interfering in Ukraine for a Decade

Not really sure how the CIA partnership with Ukraine that was reportedly established after Yanukovych was overthrown caused his overthrow.

The chronology of that theory seems a bit off.

Even if one believes there was more covert action by the CIA that preceded its partnership with the new Ukrainian government, it's difficult to explain the exact mechanics involved that would manipulate thousands of Ukrainians to take to the streets.

It also ignores the fact that another uprising occured against Yanukovych in 2004 as well. Was the CIA also behind that one?

I'm not really sure why it's so hard to accept that Yanukovych was generally viewed as a Russian puppet by many Ukrainians, particularly western Ukrainians, and his hold on power was always fragile as a result.

He took exile in Moscow for a reason. He's right at home.

You may wish to speak to Native Americans about that claim.

Spoiler alert: they call bullshit.

Not saying it was right, but the dynamics are a bit different when you're using things like referendums in occupied regions to justify annexations in countries where clear legal boundaries are involved.

Uhhh, Republic of Texas??

Fair enough.

Again this fiction that Russia is slavering to invade countries is idiotic. In the past 50 years, Russia's "invasions" consist of ... Ukraine. In the same time frame, the United States invaded Vietnam, Grenada, Afghanistan, Kuwait, and Irag. According to your theory, we should have no issue when Russia or China funds a collection of nations that put hundreds of thousands of troops on OUR border to counter yet another US-led invasion.

They invaded Afghanistan before we did, and invaded Georgia in 2008.

I'm sure Canada and Mexico are just begging for thousands of Russian and Chinese troops on their soil.

Btw, Kuwait? WTF.

They asked for our help in 1991, kind of like the Ukrainians have over the past decade.

Technically, the South Vietnamese asked for our help as well, but we were obviously too willing to accommodate in that instance.

 

[BLITZ]

Until our National debt is zero and our Borders are secure we should not be meddling in other countries problems

 

[Stewey]

Again, this fiction that Russia is slavering to invade countries is idiotic. In the past 50 years, Russia's "invasions" consist of ... Ukraine. In the same time frame, the United States invaded Vietnam, Grenada, Afghanistan, Kuwait, and Irag. According to your theory, we should have no issue when Russia or China funds a collection of nations that put hundreds of thousands of troops on OUR border to counter yet another US-led invasion.

Because that is the unfortunate truth. The United States has started vastly more wars in my lifetime than Russia. The United States has invaded far more countries in my lifetime than Russia. The United States has killed more foreign nationals in wars over the past 50 years than Russia. So its well past time for self-reflection for the United States.

We didn't invade South Vietnam. The North did. We came to their assistance. We didn't invade Kuwait; Iraq did. We came to their assistance. We invaded Grenada in order to stop a communist takeover. We invaded Iraq to stop a madman. We invaded Afghanistan in response to 911.

As in Russia's case, none of were for the purpose of annexing them to the US. We remain 50 states.

Ukraine is a nation with its own culture and language. Putin lies when he says they are the same.

1991 wasn't the first time Ukraine achieved independence.

Ukraine declares its independence | January 22, 1918 | HISTORY

The defeat of the Central Powers and the signing of the armistice in November 1918 forced Germany and Austria to withdraw from Ukraine. At the same time, with the fall of the Austro-Hungarian empire, an independent West Ukrainian republic was proclaimed in the Galician city of Lviv. The two Ukrainian states proclaimed their union in early 1919, but independence was short-lived, as they immediately found themselves in a three-way struggle against troops from both Poland and Russia. The Ukrainian government briefly allied themselves with Poland, but could not withstand the Soviet assault. In 1922, Ukraine became one of the original constituent republics of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (U.S.S.R.); it would not regain its independence until the U.S.S.R.’s collapse in 1991.


Everyone knows the Hitler killed 6 million Jews. But no one knows that Stalin killed millions of Ukrainians...the estimates vary widely from 4 million to 11.

 

[Punxsutawney]

We didn't invade South Vietnam. The North did. We came to their assistance. We didn't invade Kuwait; Iraq did. We came to their assistance. We invaded Grenada in order to stop a communist takeover. We invaded Iraq to stop a madman. We invaded Afghanistan in response to 911.

As in Russia's case, none of were for the purpose of annexing them to the US. We remain 50 states.

Ukraine is a nation with its own culture and language. Putin lies when he says they are the same.

1991 wasn't the first time Ukraine achieved independence.

Ukraine declares its independence | January 22, 1918 | HISTORY

The defeat of the Central Powers and the signing of the armistice in November 1918 forced Germany and Austria to withdraw from Ukraine. At the same time, with the fall of the Austro-Hungarian empire, an independent West Ukrainian republic was proclaimed in the Galician city of Lviv. The two Ukrainian states proclaimed their union in early 1919, but independence was short-lived, as they immediately found themselves in a three-way struggle against troops from both Poland and Russia. The Ukrainian government briefly allied themselves with Poland, but could not withstand the Soviet assault. In 1922, Ukraine became one of the original constituent republics of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (U.S.S.R.); it would not regain its independence until the U.S.S.R.’s collapse in 1991.


Everyone knows the Hitler killed 6 million Jews. But no one knows that Stalin killed millions of Ukrainians...the estimates vary widely from 4 million to 11.

After Ukraine gained its independence in 1991, Putin didn't say...

"Bye bye, y'all have a nice country".

He most likely said:

https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.9f02dd39893005e5bbc79c77575bb40a?rik=LxYMu3%2bSaiZWhw&riu=http%3a%2f%2fimg.picturequotes.com%2f2%2f607%2f606789%2fill-be-back-quote-1.jpg&ehk=%2f9HW8pjVxmD10J9rwV%2bWztBNAELjKFK9V%2f69f%2b9dQ6A%3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw&r=0

Putin wasn't in power when Ukraine gained independence.

Boris Yeltsin was the polar opposite in a lot of ways who aimed to promote democracy and openness in Russia, but his policies were generally a disaster that exacerbated the issues Russia faced following the Soviet collapse.

He was seen as a weak leader who basically yielded to Bill Clinton and the US, and it generated a lot of resentment in Russia that ultimately led to the rise of Putin.

Putin's politics revolve around restoring Russian power and influence in the world, and having countries right on Russia's border, like Ukraine, Georgia and the Baltics becoming more politically aligned with the US runs counter to that.

 

[Stewey]

Putin wasn't in power when Ukraine gained independence.

Boris Yeltsin was the polar opposite in a lot of ways who aimed to promote democracy and openness in Russia, but his policies were generally a disaster that exacerbated the issues Russia faced following the Soviet collapse.

He was seen as a weak leader who basically yielded to Bill Clinton and the US, and it generated a lot of resentment in Russia that ultimately led to the rise of Putin.

Putin's politics revolve around restoring Russian power and influence in the world, and having countries right on Russia's border, like Ukraine, Georgia and the Baltics becoming more politically aligned with the US runs counter to that.

You're right Putin wasn't in power. It was in the back of my mind to check that before I posted.

 

[Steeltime]

We didn't invade South Vietnam. The North did. We came to their assistance. We didn't invade Kuwait; Iraq did. We came to their assistance. We invaded Grenada in order to stop a communist takeover. We invaded Iraq to stop a madman. We invaded Afghanistan in response to 911.

Yes, our invasions were all good, theirs is bad.

Hey, guess what Russians believe? Our invasions all bad, theirs is good.

Nobody can justify our sending around a million troops combined to Vietnam and Iraq. Nobody. Trying to justify our involvement in those countries is a fool's errand.

As in Russia's case, none of were for the purpose of annexing them to the US. We remain 50 states.

Ukraine was a Russian province beginning in 1793. The Confederate states were a Union province beginning in 1776. Ukrainian independence became a thing in the late 19th century and a source of armed conflict during the Russian revolution in 1917, 114 years after Russia first exercised control over Ukraine. The Confederate states sought independence as early as 1840, and engaged in armed conflict for their independence in 1861, 85 years after the Union first exercised control over the states.

We "remain" 50 states only because approximately 600,000 Americans died in a civil war. And do you know why we remained a single nation? Because foreign countries refused to recognize the Confederate states as an independent nation or arm those states. If Great Britain had run the Northern blockade and sent massive arm shipments to the Confederates, we would most certainly not be 50 states.

So I guess you would have supported Great Britain running the blockade and arming the south.

 

[xjx]

Obama says there are 57 states. Biden says 54. Which Democrat is right?

 

[Confluence]

Obama says there are 57 states. Biden says 54. Which Democrat is right?

Joe Manchin?

 

[Ironcitysteelers]

Obama says there are 57 states. Biden says 54. Which Democrat is right?

My wife says 52. She thinks HI and AK are 51, 52. .

We laugh ares ***** off but yeah.

 

[Steelr4evr]

Obama says there are 57 states. Biden says 54. Which Democrat is right?

Our current ruling government treats Mexico like it's a state. People can come on through freely.

 

[ZonaBurgh]

Obama says there are 57 states. Biden says 54. Which Democrat is right?

 

[Steeltime]

Wow ... the show is so old Alaska and Hawaii were not yet states in the Union.

"The last state admitted to the Union?" Arizona.

1912 by the way. Great state ... needs to get rid of Sketchy Hobbs and the left-wingers who ruined California and moved to the great state of Arizona to implement the same inane policies that destroyed their former state.

 

[Stewey]

Yes, our invasions were all good, theirs is bad.

True. As far as Grenada, they asked for help. We helped.

The Reagan administration mounted a US military intervention following receipt of a formal appeal for help from the Organization of Eastern Caribbean States

As did Iraq, Russia has invaded a sovereign nation, for the purpose of conquest and annexation.
The US doesn't do those sorts of things.

Ukraine was a Russian province beginning in 1793. The Confederate states were a Union province beginning in 1776. Ukrainian independence became a thing in the late 19th century and a source of armed conflict during the Russian revolution in 1917, 114 years after Russia first exercised control over Ukraine. The Confederate states sought independence as early as 1840, and engaged in armed conflict for their independence in 1861, 85 years after the Union first exercised control over the states.

We "remain" 50 states only because approximately 600,000 Americans died in a civil war. And do you know why we remained a single nation? Because foreign countries refused to recognize the Confederate states as an independent nation or arm those states. If Great Britain had run the Northern blockade and sent massive arm shipments to the Confederates, we would most certainly not be 50 states.

Ukraine became a Russian province in 1793 because Russia well... invaded.
Most of Ukraine including the west fell to the Russian Empire under Catherine the Great

Ukraine's history is so complex it makes your head spin. The Poles controlled Western Ukraine way back 1600's , the Russians had the east.
So many have made their presence in Ukraine. In addition to the Poles, the Austria-Hungary Empire controlled a part of Western Ukraine until 1918.
The Turkish Ottoman Empire in Crimea. Going way back the Vikings and Mongols.

There is no historian from what I read that believes Ukraine rightfully belongs to Russia.

There is very little correlation between the Confederate states and Russia/Ukraine..

States formed and eventually joined the Union. The South was never a separate territory that had been invaded and conquered by the US.

There was support for Russia in eastern Ukraine, but I don't think Ukrainians throughout their history ever desired to become a Russian province.

Russian attempts to wipe out a culture; In 1863 the Russian Empire began to erase Ukrainian culture by banning the publication of religious, scholarly, and educational books in Ukrainian.
The Ukrainian war for independence against the Russians 1917-1921 saw the Bolsheviks destroy Ukrainian religious and cultural monuments.
And of course, the famine

 

[Stewey]

Nobody can justify our sending around a million troops combined to Vietnam and Iraq. Nobody. Trying to justify our involvement in those countries is a fool's errand.

Well, we are the worlds policeman after all.
We have 750 military bases in Allied nations throughout the world. Russia 17.
But don't get me wrong, I more and more inclined to feel we should just stay out of other countries issues.

Here is an old but interesting video on the role of the US as the worlds cop,
Boy the hate for America in the comments!

 

[Steeltime]

We have 750 military bases in Allied nations throughout the world. Russia 17.

Unfortunately, the United States has been the biggest war-mongering nation over the past 50 years. 750 overseas military bases? Seriously? That explains why Russia legitimately fears a US-led invasion of Russia. Meanwhile, no European nation has a legitimate fear of a Russian invasion.

And Stewey, trying to justify the United States' involvement in Vietnam and Iraq is not a good look. Our military endeavors into sovereign foreign nations led to the deaths of millions of citizens - millions. For what purpose and with what result?

 

[Confluence]

True. As far as Grenada, they asked for help. We helped.

The Reagan administration mounted a US military intervention following receipt of a formal appeal for help from the Organization of Eastern Caribbean States

As did Iraq, Russia has invaded a sovereign nation, for the purpose of conquest and annexation.
The US doesn't do those sorts of things.

Umm, the US signed treaties post WWII -- since the US became the global Superpower-- that it would not invade or condone others invasions of sovereign nations.

Ukraine became a Russian province in 1793 because Russia well... invaded.
Most of Ukraine including the west fell to the Russian Empire under Catherine the Great

Ukraine's history is so complex it makes your head spin. The Poles controlled Western Ukraine way back 1600's , the Russians had the east.
So many have made their presence in Ukraine. In addition to the Poles, the Austria-Hungary Empire controlled a part of Western Ukraine until 1918.
The Turkish Ottoman Empire in Crimea. Going way back the Vikings and Mongols.

There is no historian from what I read that believes Ukraine rightfully belongs to Russia.

Two things: you clearly point out that the land area of Ukraine has been part of many, many empires for at least the last 1000 years.

There is very little correlation between the Confederate states and Russia/Ukraine..

Both are the agricultural hub of the areas all around it, and thusly strategically important.

States formed and eventually joined the Union. The South was never a separate territory that had been invaded and conquered by the US.

They wanted to be, but never got the support to disengage from the Union, like when US/NATO sponsored the demise of the former Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. (Who's federal model were the Soviets using, lol?)

There was support for Russia in eastern Ukraine, but I don't think Ukrainians throughout their history ever desired to become a Russian province.

Support??? The people are ethnic Russians! Many do not even speak Ukranian! How the fuuck can you argue that Ukraine isn't Russia without conceding that Donbass/Donetsk isn't Ukranian??

Russian attempts to wipe out a culture; In 1863 the Russian Empire began to erase Ukrainian culture by banning the publication of religious, scholarly, and educational books in Ukrainian.

Was that just after the American erasure of most Native culture throughout the US? Who's example did those Russians follow?

The Ukrainian war for independence against the Russians 1917-1921 saw the Bolsheviks destroy Ukrainian religious and cultural monuments.
And of course, the famine

Stalin took all the food and assets of the Ukranians after the Ukranians supported the Nazis attempt to invade Russia, literally thru Ukraine, because both Germans and Russians (and Poles, Turks, Mongols, Arabs, etc) have recognized the strategic importance of the agricultural nature of the bulk of Ukrainan lands.
Donbass/Donetsk has only small ag, but large mining/mineral (coal) wealth.

Russia has moved to protect ethnic Russians in Crimea and Donbass/Donetsk.

 

[Steeltime]

Umm, the US signed treaties post WWII -- since the US became the global Superpower-- that it would not invade or condone others invasions of sovereign nations.

Two things: you clearly point out that the land area of Ukraine has been part of many, many empires for at least the last 1000 years.

Both are the agricultural hub of the areas all around it, and thusly strategically important.

They wanted to be, but never got the support to disengage from the Union, like when US/NATO sponsored the demise of the former Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. (Who's federal model were the Soviets using, lol?)

Support??? The people are ethnic Russians! Many do not even speak Ukranian! How the fuuck can you argue that Ukraine isn't Russia without conceding that Donbass/Donetsk isn't Ukranian??

Was that just after the American erasure of most Native culture throughout the US? Who's example did those Russians follow?

Stalin took all the food and assets of the Ukranians after the Ukranians supported the Nazis attempt to invade Russia, literally thru Ukraine, because both Germans and Russians (and Poles, Turks, Mongols, Arabs, etc) have recognized the strategic importance of the agricultural nature of the bulk of Ukrainan lands.
Donbass/Donetsk has only small ag, but large mining/mineral (coal) wealth.

Russia has moved to protect ethnic Russians in Crimea and Donbass/Donetsk.

You completely miss the narrative, Confluence:

"pOoTiN BaD, ByDeN GoOd!"

 

[Stewey]

If we want to make parallels, I liken the Russia/Ukraine situation more to the Revolutionary War.

A people long yearning for independence... and got it. You wanna take it back England? Come try...

 

[Ironcitysteelers]

President Joe Biden has given permission to Ukraine to strike inside Russian territory with American munitions, though he has restricted their use so Kyiv can only hit targets over the border close to Kharkiv after Russia made significant advances around the city in the northeastern part of the country close to the Russian border, two US officials told CNN.

“The president recently directed his team to ensure that Ukraine is able to use US supplied-weapons for counterfire purposes in Kharkiv so Ukraine can hit back at Russian forces hitting them or preparing to hit them,” one of the officials said.