I agree with Cooch here. Look at just last year's draft. Pick 135 was not as good as Pick 1.
2017 NFL Draft Q&A
- Thread starter TMC
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I agree with Cooch here. Look at just last year's draft. Pick 135 was not as good as Pick 1.
Trade back with Cleveland or San Fran in rd 2. Get an extra early 3rd rounder. Can use 4th if we want to move back up from end of rd 2 to get a cb/old we want.
2a. Lawson
2b. Fabian Moreau
3a (from Browns) WR/or OLB
3b. Cam Sutton
3b. TE, maybe Kittle
4. RB
2a. Lawson
2b. Fabian Moreau
3a (from Browns) WR/or OLB
3b. Cam Sutton
3b. TE, maybe Kittle
4. RB
ark got a new spiked collar.
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See, this is why you get blasted so much. You really don't think before you type. I agree that 10-12 corners could be gone by pick #62. So, who are the top 12 corners?
1-Marlon Humphrey
2-Gareon Conley
3-Marshon Lattimore
4-TreDavious White
5-Chidobe Awuzie
6-Kevin King
7-Adoree Jackson
8-Quincy Wilson
9-Cordrea Tankersley
10-Fabian Moreau
______________________
11-Sidney Jones
12-Teez Tabor
13-Rasul Douglas
14-Ahkello Witherspoon
15-Cameron Sutton
16-Howard Wilson
17-Jalen Myrick
18-Jourdan Lewis
So, if the top 10 are gone before pick #62, are you really stating that an injured Sidney Jones, Teez Tabor, or Rasul Douglas are bigger "sub package player or large project type"(s) than Cam Sutton, Howard Wilson, or Ahkello Witherspoon? I call bullshit on that one. Don't even know if Jones is going to come back fully from an Achilles tear. Tabor ran like ****. Douglas is inconsistent. How is that any better/worse than Sutton/Wilson/Witherspoon.
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If 1-10 are all gone....#13,15, & 16 would be good. 14 may be a baller TMC, but his run tackling tape......sheesh.....he does not like sticking his nose or come down AT ALL....I understand what you are explaining about they all can't be polished at everything,but a Steeler DB not being at least willing in the run game? Those are far and few in between.
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I like Witherspoon. I do understand the concern about not getting his nose dirty. However, don't you think with Lake, Butler and Tomlin in his grill every day... this will change?
TMC and others... what is your take on Shaquill Griffin? Being from the west coast... I have not seen him play. He sure looked good in the drills at the combine. Maybe end of round three?
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Hey TMC what you think of Carlos Henderson from LA Tech? I was just watching some film and he kinda reminds me of our own AB. But I am worried he might be more like Troy Edwards lol
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It is kind of before #10. Moreau is injured. I am not a fan of Tankersley. I'd just as soon have Howard Wilson than Tankersley. Hell, if Moreau is your pick and you are willing to wait on an injury, why not go Sidney Jones. That is the point, not a significant difference from #9 to #14. If you are drafting in the first, you hope one of the top 5 are there. If you are drafting in the 2nd, you probably want to be in the top 8.
It is a different world now. When you play zone, you have to tackle the runner. If you are in man, you often have your back to the run as a corner. They don't do as much heavy lifting.
The one thing about tackling, you have to want to tackle. For me, it is like blocking. I'll give you an example, I cannot stand Evan Engram as a blocker. He really doesn't even want to do it. I don't know if he will ever be coached up enough to develop the desire to be a great blocker. If you have a guy that won't tackle, you can teach all the form in the world and they still won't stick their nose in it.
I like Shaquill Griffin. He is raw, needs some coaching. One of the things he does that drives me crazy is, when he lines up on the outside receiver, he often gets outside of him, basically giving free releases on in breaking routes. I mean, ****, you have the sideline. Line up just inside, make the in breaking routes fight through you, give the release outside where you have the sideline. You would think a coach in college would change that.....he needs help, better coaching, but with his size and athletic ability, he could develop. I'll give you another guy to watch, Derrick Jones of Ole Miss. Former WR, in fact, he moved back and forth. He did not start for them, but long with speed and great ball skills. Willing hitter. Raw as road rash, but the tools are there. He might go undrafted and I would be ALL over him late. He is 6012-188 pounds. At his pro day, he ran a 4.44 forty with a 41" vertical jump and 11' in the broad jump.
I'm not a fan. He drops a lot of in breaking routes and tends to play a little timid when you ask him to get in among the trees. I see him as an edge receiver only. He is a pretty good deep threat because he can run, but he isn't a great route runner and doesn't get great separation on his breaks. He lacks that burst out of his breaks that AB has. I think he is closer to Troy Edwards than he is to AB. If you want an edge, there are plenty of fast, long WRs that don't run good routes and are kind of stiff that can be had later. If you want a guy that can work the whole field, there are better receivers. The guys the Steelers have looked at are long players with speed.
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He tore his pectoral muscle. It is 4 to 6 months. Sidney Jones' doctor stated he would begin running in 4 months and believed he would play this season. So, about the same time frame.
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I'd like to see us take Sidney Jones in round 3...
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TMC, any insight on this Eastern Washington kid, Cooper Kupp? Godwin and Zay Jones are rocketing up all the prognosticators boards, so makes me think, both will be gone before 62, if not 30. Saw highlights of Kupp, blowing by Sid Jones and he also had good game when he was a freshman against Marcus Peters. Could he play as #2?
Also..Chad Henson out of Cal? Just a guy? or could he be something in the 3rd?
Also..Chad Henson out of Cal? Just a guy? or could he be something in the 3rd?
Yeah I have been thinking about Kupp too.Seems to have some decent game to him. Will be interesting to see TMC's take on him.
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I think he is there in the 4th. When you look at the CBs, there are about 15 or so carrying grades that put them in the top 3 rounds and the ones slotted in the 4th are still pretty good. I mean, guys like Damontae Kazee, Brian Allen, Jeremy Cutrer, Nate Hairston (and those Temple corners are playing so well when they hit the NFL), Brendan Langley, and so many more. This draft has so much talent. I mean, if they are taking Griffin in R3, what is falling? WRs? OLBs? TEs? RBs? It is why I have always said, take the BPA.
I'm not against that. You don't get the benefit from him much this season, I'm thinking week 8 a the earliest, but then you have a first round corner taken in the 3rd. Of course, that all depends on who else is on the board, but I am not against taking Jones. It is a risk, like with Lattimore and you could end up never seeing him on the field, but if he returns, you have two press corners that are long and can run.
I love Chris Godwin and Zay Jones. I think both should draw first round consideration. I think Cooper Kupp is a solid WR. I see him carrying a late first, high second grade on a lot of boards and I think that is way too high. I have him in the 3rd. While he will get deep on some guys, his 4.6 forty isn't going to have him blowing by CBs in the NFL. He has to make his living as a WR that can do it all, and he can, but to me, he isn't in the class with Godwin and Jones. And, before I spend a 2nd on him, there are WRs I'd rather have later. He does check a lot of boxes. I think he could be a #2, but he won't be a guy like Martavis Bryant. He is a really smooth route runner with good hands. He isn't afraid to work the inside and he can set up routes to get open, but I just don't see the speed on long routes that puts NFL corners on their heels. I think they get in his grill, press him, keep a body on him down the field and negate some of what he does best. But, if he goes to a team that runs a lot of crossing routes, like Green Bay or New England, he will have a good career, because he can beat zone coverage and rub routes will help him a ton. He has excellent hands.
On Chad Hansen, long receiver that runs better than he times. He is pretty good with the ball in his hands for a bigger WR. Not elite, but he will get some yards. He tracks the ball well. He doesn't always get great separation and a lot of that is lazy route running. He catches a lot of screens and comebacks. He could use his body better in tight coverage, but he competes. He struggles with the jam. He doesn't work the middle of the field like Kupp does, but they are kind of similar guys. Hansen is the better athlete, but Kupp is vastly more polished and has a better game. Hansen needs work as a route runner. But, like with corner, there are so many big WRs that can run in this draft. I would not take Hansen ahead of Amara Darboh, Malachi Dupree, Dede Westbrook, Kenny Golladay, Josh Reynolds, Josh Malone, or Robert Davis. I have a handful of WRs I would spend top 100 picks on and if they are not there, then I just draft a big WR that can run late (or a small slot guy like Ryan Switzer).
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Let me also add this, to me, RB is a much higher priority than WR is at this time. The only WR we lost from last year is Wheaton and we should get Bryant back. While I would like to add to the room, I'm not pressing to draft a WR. At RB, even when Williams was here, they still did not have a glut of talent behind Williams. He isn't here now. We need a RB. Hell, I would not be upset if they drafted a RB in the top 100 and then came back again and added a guy late. It isn't like Touissant is killing it and Kniles Davis has always had fumble issues. He might not even make the roster. They have been scouting the hell out of RBs that fall in the 60-100 range.
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I cannot pin down the round because that depends on the draft board and they are all over the place right now. They had scouts in South Florida for Marlon Mack. They also scouted Wayne Gallman, Samaje Perine, D'Onta Foreman, Alvin Kamara, Corey Clement, TJ Logan, paid particular interest in Elijah Hood, and Tarik Cohen. Logan and Cohen are late-round draft selections in the mold of 3rd down backs. Both are strong receivers though and can work from the slot. Cohen is particularly interesting because he runs hard for a smaller back. He doesn't go down when the OL farts.
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Those guys start coming in around the 2nd round and filter all the way through the draft. Kamara is your 2nd rounder. Mack, Gallman, and Kareem Hunt (they had guys at Toledo as well, I left him off) are 3rds. The rest should come in from the 4th down.
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So you agree with me that 10-12 corners will be gone by pick #60. Common ground has been achieved.
Now, lets use the 2016 draft as a template. By pick #94 ( which is where we pick in round three ) FOURTEEN Corners were off the board. This year, I'll predict there will be 14 or more taken BEFORE we pick in round three.
Are you confident we can get a starter in round three? I am not! This is why one needs to be picked before that time. Round 2 seems right. Gay needs to be replaced due to age, and the Steelers think so highly of Cockerel he has a lowly 4th round tender. There you have it our 2nd and 3rd best corner....one is small, and slowing down, the other better suited for sub package work.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_NFL_Draft
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Isn't this a much deeper draft at the position
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I'm not ready to speculate on how many corners are taken by pick #62. It could be 10. It could be 12. It might only be 8 since two of the top corners are down for 4-6 months. It could be 14. There are always guys that rise, guys that fall, sleepers that nobody expects, and high value prospects that fall. Did you think you could get Andrew Billings in the 4th last year? Did you think Artie Burns and Sean Davis were worth 1st/2nd round picks? So, while I am not stating that assessment is wrong, not buying it as fact either. It is a fool's errand.
Cannot use 2016 as a template and I won't. The 2016 draft wasn't as deep at corner. No WR was drafted in the top 10 last year, only 5 went in the top 40. This draft features better first round talent and is much deeper at the WR spot. Better edge rushers. Better ILBs. Vastly better at RB and safety. It has solid DTs. All of that could contribute to teams overdrafting QBs and OL because they feel they can get those positions later. It means talent could slide. You cannot evaluate how a draft breaks until teams start drafting players. Again, any speculation about what will be gone is a fool's errand.
I'm pretty confident we can find a starter in round 3. Look, you want to refer back to 2016 so much, here are NFL.com's CB rankings for 2016, in order by grade.
www.nfl.com/draft/2016/tracker#dt-tabs:dt-by-position/dt-by-position-input:cb
If you look, the 7th/8th ranked corners were there in the 3rd round. DJ White, the 10th ranked corner fell to the 6th. Cyrus Jones was taken in the 2nd and he ranked 13th. The 25th ranked corner went in the 2nd round. To attempt to predict where players go with any certainty is laughable at best. In 2016, NFL.com ranked 6 corners with a grade of 5.7 or higher. In 2017, they have 15 ranked 5.7 or higher. You stated that in 2016, fourteen corners were gone before the 94th pick. If the same holds true, we will be drafting a player that is better than the 7th best corner in last year's draft, by NFL.com's rankings.
Deeper throughout and deeper at the top end.
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