Allen Robinson or Jordan Matthews

[dobre shunka]

If we had been stopping the run would Clark, Timmons and Woodley have bitten as hard on Pryor's 91 yard option run?

Seriously? That was the first play of the game? The DL did their job on that play, in 2 gap they go with the OL flow. They did. Woodley crashed and Timmons **** his fit. Again. Had nothing to do with trying to compensate for a caved in DL. Pretty much every big run last year was the result of **** fits behind the DL, not because of the DL getting abused.

You make it sound like all the players play a certain way based nothing on the players around them. It's an 11 man team. If the guys inside are doing their job, then the coaches aren't yelling about giving up the run on 1st downs and maybe Clark and Woodley aren't crashing as hard to help out and fix what the coaches have been yelling about.

Please. The number one thing the coaches preach is gap integrity. Assignment football. Do your job, and don't try to do more than that. None of that had to do with the DL. Not that they aren't above upgrade, just that they were the least of their Run D problems last year. They came out of the bye with two wins where the run game was not a factor. Yet 'you make it sound like' everyone was in full panic mode on the first play of the Oakland friggin Raiders game because they had no faith in the DL? Come on.

I would not construe that adjustment to mean they WANT to do it because that's not what I suspect. I suspect it had a lot to do with the better available players just happen to be in the DB's and not in the D-line and LB's.

I don't assume what they want. I already acknowledged I have no idea what they want or intend to do this season. But I sure as **** ain't gonna assume they flipped it because they had better players on the backend. Their INTs and PDs have sucked for 3 straight years. That's incredibly hard to achieve. Almost always a quick regression to the mean. Suggests a shameful lack of backend talent will still drag those numbers as much as sheer luck. And they weren't any better with 2 extra DBs on the field. Worse actually. I assume the reason for the flip was a complete lack of preparedness for the loss of Foote. Buck was the epicenter of all their problems on D last year, and everything they did and tried to do was centered around that adjustment. You're right, the players have an effect on the players around them. And last year they were not 11 players playing as 1. I've said this a number of times. They were 11 individuals running around like barnyard chickens. And their Buck was headless. He's the maestro on this D.

As for the Run D going to crap contemporaneous to the loss of Hampton, in 2012:

Here is a statistical comparison of how the D performed when each was on the field:

McLendon:
Plays 129, #Pass 69, #Run 60, Yds/play 3.83, TotYds 494, Y/Pass 4.87, PassYds 288, Y/Run 3.43, RunYds 206
1st Ds 32, 1st% 24.8%, TDs 5, TD% 3.9, Fumb 1, Int 1

Hampton
Plays 482, #Pass 217, #Run 265, Y/Play 4.92, TotYds 2370, Y/Pass 6.4, PassYds 1389, Y/Run 3.7, RunYds 981
1st Ds 125, 1st% 25.9%, TDs 17, TD% 3.5%, Fum 5, Int 4.

McLendon took 14 nickel snaps and all 7 jumbo snaps, while Hampton took 6 nickel snaps and also all 7 jumbos (only time they shared the field). All the rest of their snaps were in base. Interesting thing about Hampton's snap counts is that it grew over the season. First half of the season he had 211 snaps, second half he had 284. I guess part of that could be a biproduct of losing. Steelers D did face more snaps and more runs over the second half of the season than the first eight games. Amounting to equivalent of a little more than one extra games worth of snaps and runs. We know from before that both Hampton and McLendon play almost exclusively base and teams ran predominately on their base. McLendon's snaps remained somewhat steady. 17 snaps in the opener to Hampton's 23. That was a season high for McLendon and a season low for Hampton who did start the season off on gimpy knees. Tho I doubt they got much better over the course of that season. Long way of saying it seems odd that LeBeau leaned even harder on his 35 year old 12 year vet, while McLendon's snaps stayed the same-ish. All things equal, I would expect both to rise proportionally. But all things are not equal. Considering Hampton's age and knees, it would be fair to expect LeBeau to just maintain Hampton's snaps while feeding the younger/fresher McLendon a little more of the growing excess. Also considering what's equal and what's not, we can look at quality of play to see if that's a factor. If Hampton is simply better than McLendon at that point in time, understandable he might receive an even greater share of the snaps. Statistically however, slight edge to McLendon almost across the board. Would that hold up under more snaps, or bleed off a bit? And would Hampton's stat look better if he had fewer snaps. Can't really say, but at the very least a good case can be made that McLendon should have received more playing time in 2012, and Hampton less. This with the #2 Run D of 2012. McLendon, while just a guy, is/was not the issue with the Run D last year.

 

[dobre shunka]

Like I said, I have no idea where they go with this D. Presently, imo, they're in no-man's-land. The O is the dominant hand in this current relationship, not the D. They are now the compliment. But they are no where close to being complimentary. So, what do you do with the O because of that? I don't know that either. Last year they closed well. Showing that they can be a very good uptempo offense. One more piece to boost redzone scoring and they're there. But can they do that with this D? I don't think so. Not over the long haul of a full season. The defenses paired with those offenses tend to have to match that tempo. With speed and rotation. And by playing high risk. They are designed to steal possessions. This D has no depth or playmakers. Regardless of what they do on D they need those anyways. But Buck remains number one on their to do list. That is top priority, tho going on 4 or 5 years, I still see little evidence of a shared opinion by the FO, even after the clusterfuck that was 2013. They desperately need playmakers everywhere, but particularly on the backend. And they need depth everywhere. If there was a Poe/Ngata type highly conditioned mobile mountain, yeah, I'd be all over that. A guy like that would allow them to play whatever they want. I've only been saying that for, like, forever. So I'm not sure where this perceived indifference is coming from when it comes to the impact one can have on 11. That's the impact one guy can have on the 11. Nix is not that guy. No where close.

 

[Idioteque]

Where do you get MULTIPLE academic suspensions. I see one. He was suspended from the bowl game because of academic reasons. What is the other? He did not qualify coming out of high school and had to go to Hargrave Military Academy before heading to Clemson. That is not a suspension. Many players have had to go that route, or the Juco route, before moving to a 4-year school.

My mistake. Not an academic suspension. Just not allowed to play in the NCAA due to grades. That sounds better.

Are those two issues so big that you wipe a player off your board? Are you now dinging any kid that fails to qualify academically out of high school and gets a 1 game suspension in college for grades?

LOL. I said the exact opposite. You don't even read the **** you ramble about.

and, I did not compare him to Mike Adams as if Adams was a success story, because he is far from that, but the Steelers did draft a guy with much more in the character risk column in the 2nd round. Hell, they drafted Stonio Holmes in the first. You are blowing the headcase stuff way out of proportion.

Were those good ideas? ******* A. You want me to believe that, since Adams WAS picked in the second, that we should be fine with picking Bryant there!

I did not list those guys because they were elite WRs. I listed them because they played in the NFL, were similar heights/weights and were not called "thin as a rail" by anyone. Yet, you call him thin when he is well over 210 pounds. Randy Moss was 6033-203. Successful enough? Eric Decker was 6031-217. Jordy Nelson is in that range. Wanna pick something else?

No, I'll stick with what I went with. Compare their builds. Are we going to say Bryant is built similarly to Nelson and Decker? Those guys looked like RBs coming into the NFL. Bryant looks like a high school WR.

I love how you focus on size and throw everything else out of the equation. You just ride out this one supposed inconsistency, and suddenly, Bryant is on a par with Randy ******* Moss. Seriously. Randy the **** Moss.

The guys you've mentioned were EXTRAORDINARILY productive college receivers. Braylon Edwards was thin. Bryant is thin AND can't catch AND was not used much in college AND is a knucklehead. Randy Moss was the entire Marshall program unto himself. Bryant was a backup, then an afterthought. Yes, I know you're just trying to prove that Bryant is similarly sized to other NFL players. It does not make it optimal size. Trust me, if Bryant's iffy size were his only issue, I'd be a lot lighter on the guy. But you want me to overlook multiple academic issues AND bad hands AND poor effort (according to his coaches) AND a lack of productivity.. and pass on superior players just to take him in the second.

Willie Parker was not ever productive in school either.

That's why he went undrafted. Would you have taken him in the second round in 2004? Now, we know he was worthy of a high pick, but obviously, nobody did back then. If Bryant puts it all together and becomes a good NFL receiver, then you may come to me in ten years and tell me what a brilliant idea it was to take him in the second. But we're not evaluating a hypothetical version of 2025 Martavis Bryant; we're evaluating the little bit of production he has on tape. You want to use one INCREDIBLY rare example with 20/20 hindsight to prove that a glaring lack of productivity means nothing. That's insane. Parker is the extreme exception, not the rule.

Troy Edwards had one of the most productive single seasons of any WR. Plenty of very productive guys that fail in the NFL. Plenty. Plenty of less productive guys that excel. If college production was an indicator of future success, the draft sure would be a lot easier. It is not.

That's why you consider extenuating circumstances. You know full well that Edwards' productivity carried with it a massive asterisk: he was the only option in at a small school that threw the ball 80 times a game. I don't think that makes it unfair to wonder why Bryant was an afterthought throughout his time at school. (Well, the amount of time he was allowed to be on the team.)

He was barely used because they force fed Watkins the football.

Makes me wonder why they did that. Why not utilize them both, transcendent talents they both are? Clemson had another receiver who caught 41 passes to Bryant's 42. They also had a freshman who caught 20. Seems to me like Bryant was merely lumped into the "other options" category. And even if that's not the case.. are you really gonna ignore all the red flags AND spend a second to find out?

Prior to this season, they had DeAndre Hopkins at WR. So, what you are stating is, a guy slated in the 2nd round was held back by a potential top 5 pick and a former first round selection. Wow, that is a shocker. I would have thought Clemson should have benched Hopkins to play the freshman. WTF were they thinking?

Don't know, but I'm surely gonna run to the podium in the second round to found out what's the dilly-o! I'm sure they just kept his remarkable, undeniable talent under wraps for ***** and gigs.

LMAO, "adjusted" explosivity numbers....really? Adjusted for size?

LOL. Yes, adjusted for size. I personally don't think there's merit in comparing the 40 times and verticals of Sammy Watkins v. Seantrel Henderson. You HAVE TO adjust by size. (For the record, though, Moncrief still came out #1 in this class without adjusting for size.)

Love to see that formula.

(H + W + VJ + BJ) / 40

You mean adjusted for weight. Has to be adjusted for weight because the difference in "size" between the two is pretty easy to see. Moncrief is 221. Bryant is 211. Moncrief is 6023 and Bryant is 6036. So, Moncrief is over an inch shorter and 10 pounds heavier. Moncrief ran 4.40 and 4.35 unofficial. He ran a 4.40 official. Bryant ran a 4.34 and 4.35 unofficial and 4.42 official. Bryant benched 225-16 times while the bigger Moncrief did 13. Bryant has longer arms. The difference in the VJ was 1/2" in favor of Moncrief. Moncrief had a broad jump of 11" while Bryant had a score of 10'4". The shuttle was 0.11 in favor of Moncrief with the cone being 0.15 in favor of Bryant.

The differences are razor thin. The ONLY way they could be factored out in favor of Moncrief is to use the 10 pounds heavier because if it were based on height, they would favor Bryant. Again, show me the formula......

Bryant being much thinner (and yes, 10 pounds makes a difference, which you know, especially when you're the taller of the two) means that he has somewhat different expectations in speed and quickness numbers. Moncrief bested him despite being at a bulk disadvantage (he had more). In fact, he bested everyone in the class by a mile, and bested all but eight (8) receivers over the last 16 years.

Again, you also have a WR that had elite WRs in front of him every season until this year and played with a top 5 pick this season that Clemson force fed the football.

I get all that. Being an afterthought behind great WRs doesn't mean you suck. It means you're an unknown. When you add ALLLLLL of Bryant's warts to that mystery, you come up with an incredibly risky second-round pick.

What cannot be overlooked is, in a horizontal offense where he was asked to block more than catch, Bryant lead the ACC in yards per catch and was 4th in the nation.

Incorrect. He was 9th. Stunningly, almost everyone else ranked high on that list was a lightly-used afterthought as well. Maybe it's because they were niche players who weren't trusted to handle more responsibility.. ?

 

[deljzc]

Seriously? That was the first play of the game? The DL did their job on that play, in 2 gap they go with the OL flow. They did. Woodley crashed and Timmons **** his fit. Again. Had nothing to do with trying to compensate for a caved in DL. Pretty much every big run last year was the result of **** fits behind the DL, not because of the DL getting abused.



Please. The number one thing the coaches preach is gap integrity. Assignment football. Do your job, and don't try to do more than that. None of that had to do with the DL. Not that they aren't above upgrade, just that they were the least of their Run D problems last year. They came out of the bye with two wins where the run game was not a factor. Yet 'you make it sound like' everyone was in full panic mode on the first play of the Oakland friggin Raiders game because they had no faith in the DL? Come on.




I don't assume what they want. I already acknowledged I have no idea what they want or intend to do this season. But I sure as **** ain't gonna assume they flipped it because they had better players on the backend. Their INTs and PDs have sucked for 3 straight years. That's incredibly hard to achieve. Almost always a quick regression to the mean. Suggests a shameful lack of backend talent will still drag those numbers as much as sheer luck. And they weren't any better with 2 extra DBs on the field. Worse actually. I assume the reason for the flip was a complete lack of preparedness for the loss of Foote. Buck was the epicenter of all their problems on D last year, and everything they did and tried to do was centered around that adjustment. You're right, the players have an effect on the players around them. And last year they were not 11 players playing as 1. I've said this a number of times. They were 11 individuals running around like barnyard chickens. And their Buck was headless. He's the maestro on this D.

As for the Run D going to crap contemporaneous to the loss of Hampton, in 2012:

Here is a statistical comparison of how the D performed when each was on the field:

McLendon:
Plays 129, #Pass 69, #Run 60, Yds/play 3.83, TotYds 494, Y/Pass 4.87, PassYds 288, Y/Run 3.43, RunYds 206
1st Ds 32, 1st% 24.8%, TDs 5, TD% 3.9, Fumb 1, Int 1

Hampton
Plays 482, #Pass 217, #Run 265, Y/Play 4.92, TotYds 2370, Y/Pass 6.4, PassYds 1389, Y/Run 3.7, RunYds 981
1st Ds 125, 1st% 25.9%, TDs 17, TD% 3.5%, Fum 5, Int 4.

McLendon took 14 nickel snaps and all 7 jumbo snaps, while Hampton took 6 nickel snaps and also all 7 jumbos (only time they shared the field). All the rest of their snaps were in base. Interesting thing about Hampton's snap counts is that it grew over the season. First half of the season he had 211 snaps, second half he had 284. I guess part of that could be a biproduct of losing. Steelers D did face more snaps and more runs over the second half of the season than the first eight games. Amounting to equivalent of a little more than one extra games worth of snaps and runs. We know from before that both Hampton and McLendon play almost exclusively base and teams ran predominately on their base. McLendon's snaps remained somewhat steady. 17 snaps in the opener to Hampton's 23. That was a season high for McLendon and a season low for Hampton who did start the season off on gimpy knees. Tho I doubt they got much better over the course of that season. Long way of saying it seems odd that LeBeau leaned even harder on his 35 year old 12 year vet, while McLendon's snaps stayed the same-ish. All things equal, I would expect both to rise proportionally. But all things are not equal. Considering Hampton's age and knees, it would be fair to expect LeBeau to just maintain Hampton's snaps while feeding the younger/fresher McLendon a little more of the growing excess. Also considering what's equal and what's not, we can look at quality of play to see if that's a factor. If Hampton is simply better than McLendon at that point in time, understandable he might receive an even greater share of the snaps. Statistically however, slight edge to McLendon almost across the board. Would that hold up under more snaps, or bleed off a bit? And would Hampton's stat look better if he had fewer snaps. Can't really say, but at the very least a good case can be made that McLendon should have received more playing time in 2012, and Hampton less. This with the #2 Run D of 2012. McLendon, while just a guy, is/was not the issue with the Run D last year.

I wasn't really saying Hampton in 2012 form. He was done. Hell he was a shell of his former self at that point.

I am saying Hampton when he was good and as he degraded so did the run defense. And McLendon isn't really doing anything to help.

I just think this whole idea we need to worry about pass, pass, pass is wrong. Our defense last year LOST on first downs. We were terrible against the run. We didn't generate negative plays in the run game and were average vs. short yardage. Those are facts.

Drafting more DB's isn't going to fix that. Cam Thomas isn't going to fix that. Starting ??? at ILB next to Timmons isn't going to fix that.

We're through 90% of free agency and we really only have the draft left, and I haven't really seen ONE thing done to fix the run defense, have you? Most of us are crossing our fingers they bring back 36 year old Keisel who is probably 80% of what he used to be because that's STILL BETTER than what we have on the roster.

I guess I see a pretty tangible problem that Nix can help fix this year and in the future. But hell, let's throw some more DB's at the problem even though we know Taylor, Polamalu, Mitchell, Gay, C. Allen, W. Allen and even Thomas can provide 400-1000 snaps on defense if need be this year.

I'm not saying we don't need better depth at DB. And I know Taylor and Gay should be upgraded soon but so should McLendon (and maybe more urgently in my opinion).

 

[dobre shunka]

I wasn't really saying Hampton in 2012 form. He was done. Hell he was a shell of his former self at that point.

I am saying Hampton when he was good and as he degraded so did the run defense. And McLendon isn't really doing anything to help.

They were the #2 run D in the league with Hampton in 2012. The shell of his former self. When they were a 63% base team. So which is it? That a washed up old NT with shot knees can still make significant impact on run stops? Doesn't that belie your entire point? They got it done by dedicating any old mass and more of it than any team in the league, which you don't consider quality players at that point. So why do they need a R1 NT, if just slapping in more jaggy beef will do? The Steelers were good against the run in 2012 because they dedicated more beef to it than anyone else in the league. They were poor against the run in 2013 because they didn't.

I just think this whole idea we need to worry about pass, pass, pass is wrong. Our defense last year LOST on first downs. We were terrible against the run. We didn't generate negative plays in the run game and were average vs. short yardage. Those are facts.

We've talked about the crash last year going from 60% base defense to 60% nickle/dime because of the injury to Larry Foote. I'm as critical of anyone for that. I think I did a chart and the average number of D-linemen went from 2.7 to 2.5 per play between 2012 and 2013 (I don't have the numbers in front of me and don't have time to check right now - I will this afternoon).

I can tell you exactly. Went from 2.64 in 2012 to 2.38 last year. Gap may seem insignificant, if that's your point, but it's not. Their 2 DL sets went from 335 in 2012 to 654 in 2013. Their 3DL sets went from 594 in 2012 to 384 in 2013. Went from 15 snaps in 6DB dime in 2012 to 499 times in 2013. Not an insignificant amount of fat to lean being swapped out. Understandable that the Run would suffer for that. It's just way to simple to say they went from #2 with Hampton to #21 without, concluding they need the 'next Hampton', and laying the drop on the DL/McLendon. McLendon may be a jag, but he wasn't the problem. Those are the facts.

Drafting more DB's isn't going to fix that. Cam Thomas isn't going to fix that. Starting ??? at ILB next to Timmons isn't going to fix that.

We're through 90% of free agency and we really only have the draft left, and I haven't really seen ONE thing done to fix the run defense, have you? Most of us are crossing our fingers they bring back 36 year old Keisel who is probably 80% of what he used to be because that's STILL BETTER than what we have on the roster.

I guess I see a pretty tangible problem that Nix can help fix this year and in the future. But hell, let's throw some more DB's at the problem even though we know Taylor, Polamalu, Mitchell, Gay, C. Allen, W. Allen and even Thomas can provide 400-1000 snaps on defense if need be this year.

I'm not saying we don't need better depth at DB. And I know Taylor and Gay should be upgraded soon but so should McLendon (and maybe more urgently in my opinion).

A quality Buck will fix a chunk of it. Their issues v the run were poor fits on the back 8 AND an over reliance on smurfs/dime because Timmons needed Polamalu to hold his hand. They had to play more dime last year. If they get someone who can get them properly set and functioning as one, AND at the same time get them more beef on the field by allowing them to play more nickel and base rather than dime, their Run D will improve. But turnovers, with or without a Buck or NT, remain a significant problem. They need to desperately fix that too. So, while another CB doesn't exactly help them with their Run D, it should help them with their other major problems.

But we saw first hand what kind of impact the loss of one very jaggy Foote at Buck can do to the entire D.

 

[Idioteque]

You're dancing with danger, dobre. We don't take kindly to criticism of T.I.M.M.O.N.S.

 

[ark steel]

You're dancing with danger, dobre. We don't take kindly to criticism of T.I.M.M.O.N.S.

Dobre has had criticisms of Timmons before, yet, for some reason, he doesn't feel the need to bring it up in every thread. Yes, I know it is not "every" thread, but you get the point that, for some reason some people just can't let it go and, god forbid, that anyone actually defend Timmons. See the difference?

I respect Dobre's opinion more than most here, but I don't entirely agree with the Polamalu "holding his hand", but I haven't cleared that opinion with the SN Elite, yet.

I heard a report from the OBGYN that delivered Timmons that he was so out of position in the womb, they thought he was breech. Dude couldn't even find the hole to get out of the womb.

 

[Idioteque]

That didn't take long.

 

[ark steel]

That didn't take long.

Sorry to offend your sensibilities.

 

[Super Dave]

Dobre........Do you see a Buck in this draft that would be a difference maker in this D?

Seems to me I recall you were not so hot for CJ Mosley.

They should of addressed Buck LONG ago, like a year prior to Farriors retirement. It's like they felt that they had someone on the roster that they were hoping could fill it and that failed, that, coupled with the Spence injury just killed that position and the rest of the D has declined ever since

 

[deljzc]

They should have drafted a good buck a long time ago. I fully agree.

What if we go Nix in round 1 and Borland in round 2? Talk about fixing the run game....

Everyone talks about getting smaller and faster. This team lacks toughness. And it lacks the ability to win in the trenches on defense. Hood didn't help ****. Keisel and Hampton got old. Heyward FINALLY started to show himself last year after sitting for two years. McLendon, Woods and now Thomas are below average roster spot holders.

It wasn't just the defensive line snap counts that contributed to our running defense decline (that was just a result of bad talent in the front seven).

In 2012 we were still 22nd in the league on short yardage defense and 14th at getting stuffs.

In 2011 we were 15th in the league in short yardage and 22nd in getting stuffs.

In 2010 we were 10th in the league in short yardage and 10th in getting stuffs.

In 2009 we were 32nd in the league in short yardage and 20th in getting stuffs.

In 2008 we were 1st in the league in short yardage and 18th in getting stuffs

In 2007 we were 7th in the league in short yardage and 12th in getting stuffs.

For the most part (except 2011) when we did well in those two stats, we made the playoffs. And there has been a decline that has nothing to do with our personnel groupings (more nickel, less nickel, etc.) and more to do with personnel.

 

[SteelerFan448]

I'm not sure that I want Nix with the 15th pick, but I do recognize that he would help make the entire defense better. The Steelers aren't going to get that type of response from drafting Fuller or Dennard. They'll have a tough time as the front seven continues to get run over and fails to generate pressure.

 

[Vader]

They should have drafted a good buck a long time ago. I fully agree.

What if we go Nix in round 1 and Borland in round 2? Talk about fixing the run game....

Everyone talks about getting smaller and faster. This team lacks toughness. And it lacks the ability to win in the trenches on defense. Hood didn't help ****. Keisel and Hampton got old. Heyward FINALLY started to show himself last year after sitting for two years. McLendon, Woods and now Thomas are below average roster spot holders.

It wasn't just the defensive line snap counts that contributed to our running defense decline (that was just a result of bad talent in the front seven).

In 2012 we were still 22nd in the league on short yardage defense and 14th at getting stuffs.

In 2011 we were 15th in the league in short yardage and 22nd in getting stuffs.

In 2010 we were 10th in the league in short yardage and 10th in getting stuffs.

In 2009 we were 32nd in the league in short yardage and 20th in getting stuffs.

In 2008 we were 1st in the league in short yardage and 18th in getting stuffs

In 2007 we were 7th in the league in short yardage and 12th in getting stuffs.

For the most part (except 2011) when we did well in those two stats, we made the playoffs. And there has been a decline that has nothing to do with our personnel groupings (more nickel, less nickel, etc.) and more to do with personnel.

I understand you have a hard on for Nix. However you're clutching at straws. IF in 2009 they were horrible in those stats how does that make a NG a priority? Hampton played all 16 games that year and even made another pro-bowl. So obviously the NG isn't always the problem.

 

[TMC]

Here is my thing, if I am drafting a big run stopping, OL eating guy in the middle, I want a coverage linebacker behind him. If we draft a guy like Borland, who I love, I do not really want that big run stuffer in the middle. I am more willing to give up a little there to get a guy that can give more of a pass rush. ]

It is either/or to me, but not both. I do not want to backpedal and take that big run stopper and pair him with a coverage limited guy. I think when you face teams like Denver and the Pats, they will spread you and crush you. I get you have to win the division, but I am not the type to not think I want to be just good enough to make the playoffs. Balance is the key. Nix is good enough, but I do not think I want him in the top 25 or so picks. Knees scare me.

As for ILBs, I like Borland. I like Preston Brown. Those are my two run stoppers. I like the guy from BC as a coverage guy that can play the run.

 

[dobre shunka]

They should have drafted a good buck a long time ago. I fully agree.

What if we go Nix in round 1 and Borland in round 2? Talk about fixing the run game....

Love Borland, tho I don't love his measurables. I do think he's the type like a Trent Murphy or Red Bryant who can/will play above those numbers. But he's still limited. A mack. Got enough of those. Hell, that's all they've got. Collecting them like Y2K'ers collected bicycles. Maybe in some post-apocalypse football world, macks are like gold. Who knows. But Borland is a base-only player. Same as Nix. Got no use for that. Doesn't solve the green dot dilemma either, unless they say eff it and just play Borland in packs anyways like they did Foote. No thanks please. Limits the scope of the D, fosters as many problems as it may solve.

Everyone talks about getting smaller and faster. This team lacks toughness. And it lacks the ability to win in the trenches on defense. Hood didn't help ****. Keisel and Hampton got old. Heyward FINALLY started to show himself last year after sitting for two years. McLendon, Woods and now Thomas are below average roster spot holders.

Mostly agree. Tho I think some of that is attributable to flipping from so much base to so much dime. That was a conscious decision, even if it wasn't planned or well thought out in advance. They did make the decision to sacrifice some run defense to either stabilize a rudderless D and/or to generate turnovers. Latter didn't really work. And the former, only so much as a tourniquet on a bleeding jugular. Slowed the bleed, but so what?

It wasn't just the defensive line snap counts that contributed to our running defense decline (that was just a result of bad talent in the front seven).

Like I said, the decline was most attributable to going dime heavy AND not fitting it up resulting in many more big runs than we're use to seeing. Even if the DL got caved on those big runs (and I'm not saying that), not a one of them should've gone for more than 10 yards if the back 8 were in their lanes/where they were suppose to be. A poor DL will get you 5-10 yard runs, instead of 0-2. **** fits get you housed. And that was the issue.

Just look at the 5 biggest runs from last year. Forte ripped off 55. The Steelers were in a game. The DL went where they were suppose to and occupied their designated lanes. With Timmons and VW trying to execute a playside AB x-fire run blitz. For whatever reason, Timmons **** his fit trying to slide inside the guard in the already occupied A gap and nobody home in the B. Clark tried to spill but wiffed. Gay spent 25 yards trying to punch the ball out from behind. That's not a DL problem. And was not a domino effect beginning with the DL. Shoulda been stuffed for zero/loss if Timmons hits his gap. Shoulda been stopped for 5 if Clark makes the tackle. Should been limited to 25-30 if Gay just tries to get him on the ground. Can go right down the list. AP's 60 yard TD. Timmons doesn't read the FB. At all. WTF? Polamalu got caught inside on a WR crackback even tho in film prep they stressed to watch for that outta that stack. And Ike whiffed. 5 or 10 yards max, 1 or 2 minimum, goes for 60 and 6 because the backend didn't do their jobs. We've gone over the Terrelle Pryor TD. Timmons, once again abandons his fit, and Woodley crashes hard. Minimal play if they fit it. Clark reads the hard inside pursuit and assumes his teammates couldn't possibly have **** it that bad and jumps down and inside too, leaving himself an impossible angle on Pryor. Daniel Thomas for Mia, they caught them in dime with way more beef/bodies at the point of attack than they could handle. Wee Polamalu got mowed down. Woodley actually did a pretty good job of caving the tackle but it was a tsunami of pulling mass that washed the smalls out. IIRC Ike whiffed and Clark took a bad angle costing them an extra 20-25 yards. Tannehill busted off a big run when Jones once again jumped hard inside, abandoning his contain/edge duties. The exact same thing that got him benched. Dunno if the coaches gave up trying to correct him, or just figured they were gonna live with the mistakes no matter how many/costly. But it didn't result in a similar hook he got for the same things prior. Will Allen jumped up and failed on his force attempt, costing them yards. Clark was out of position, cost them more yards. And Ike was slow. None of those runs really had anything to do with inferior DL play. Had everything to do with the back 8-9 not being where they were suppose to be, missed tackles, or whatev. I agree that there was some overcompensating going on on D. But they weren't compensating for the DL. They were compensating mostly for one or two guys who had no idea where they were suppose to be. One was a rookie, so ok fine. The other a 7 year vet.... who was responsible for trying to get the other 10 lined up where they were suppose to be. Don't want to turn this into another Timmons thread tho.

Anyways, add up just those big run yards. 311 yards. For the sake of argument, lets say the DL crapped it and the LBs/DBs properly mitigated the damage and held all of those runs to 10yds each, 50 combined. Diff of 261. Subtracted from the Run D totals, that's 1588, or 99.6 ypg. Puts their Run D at 5th in the league. Yards per carry goes from 4.3 (22nd) to 3.67 (2nd). I know it doesn't quite work that way, but you get my drift. Going small and **** fits had the biggest impact on the Run Ds decline. Not a jaggy NT replacing a decroded NT.

 

[Idioteque]

The best I can call Borland is a limited player. It's easy to call him a Mack because he's stout and loves to tackle. But he doesn't just have subpar measurables. He often looks like a cartoon out there. He is famously short and short-armed, which not only hurts him in slipping blocks and coverage - he even struggles to tackle because of it. He can take forever to get his arms around a ballcarrier and even longer to win the grapple and wrestle him down. He certainly had his share of tackles in school, but he was a MLB. They all rack up tackles. And I seriously doubt that once he hits the NFL, his arms will get longer and/or the ballcarriers will get weaker and easier to tackle. He's not the stumbling, slow-footed oaf he's made out to be, but he's a decisively below average athlete. If you want a two-down guy who is never, ever, ever, ever asked to stick with a TE and must be removed from any and all sub-packages, then he may be your man, but that sounds like a 4th-5th guy to me.

I don't just doom a guy from my board because of worse-than-average length. But Borland has this issue to a cartoonish degree. It's like a WR running a 4.8, or an OL throwing up 5 reps on the bench. And you can see the effects, even in his good film. He's a guy I don't touch before our pick at the *** end of the 3rd, and even then, I taper my expectations dramatically. Throw in the fact that he's off some boards already due to his shoulder. It's been operated on twice and there are some complications from the most recent one. To be honest, I'd pass entirely unless he spiraled down everyone's board and I could grab him the 4th or 5th.

What works in his favor is that this is a pretty weak crop of off-LBs. I have Shazier, Mosley, and Telvin Smith as the top guys, complete players (or guys with the potential to be complete) that you can feel pretty confident about. (I know Smith is exceptionally thin, but he plays bigger, and you typically expect these guys to throw on 10 pounds within their first year or so. Remember MoJo Drew as a rookie?) Beyond that, you pick yer poison. Bunch of specialist guys: thumpers like Preston Brown, Shayne Skov, Borland. Some athletes learning to harness it: Jordan Tripp, Tyler Starr, Lamin Barrow. Some jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none types: Yawin Smallwood, Avery Williamson.

Personally, I'm on the lookout for the best LB available after the 3rd to see what we can develop. If you can take a guy like Tripp and bulk him up to 245, you have something special. Or, if you grab a stud thumper like Preston Brown, you snag him around the 4th. It would certainly suck to struggle through another year with a non-contributor in that spot, but Moats is a capable guy. If you want to address it early, wait until there are some decent early options.

 

[dobre shunka]

Dobre........Do you see a Buck in this draft that would be a difference maker in this D?

Seems to me I recall you were not so hot for CJ Mosley.

They should of addressed Buck LONG ago, like a year prior to Farriors retirement. It's like they felt that they had someone on the roster that they were hoping could fill it and that failed, that, coupled with the Spence injury just killed that position and the rest of the D has declined ever since

Such a screaming need, I feel like the guy at last call with a raging boner. My standards have been shamefully lowered.

I'm ok with Mosley in R2. He might make it, not sure. If he does it's because of his shoulders, and then I might not want him. So I dunno. I don't love Shazier, but I'm ok with him in R1 depending on the rest of the field. I do like Tripp and would consider overdrafting him just to check that very large box off my list. If they can, thru trade, cluster some picks in R2-R4, I'd be ok with dropping a two on him. That didn't come out right. That didn't either. Oh well. I've cooled on KVN due to workouts, but I can't scratch him off. But he won't make it to their comp R3, and I don't think the Steelers have any interest in him anyways. Carl Bradford is intriguing, but a project, in a Teddy Bruschi sorta way. I like KP-L, but I'm not sure on fit. Khairi Fortt has some flags, but worth a late flyer.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

Tannehill busted off a big run when Jones once again jumped hard inside, abandoning his contain/edge duties. The exact same thing that got him benched. Dunno if the coaches gave up trying to correct him, or just figured they were gonna live with the mistakes no matter how many/costly. But it didn't result in a similar hook he got for the same things prior.

If it's the run i'm thinking about Jarvis didn't abandon his responsibility. Troy just got caught up in the wash blowing the play wide open. Your point still stands though.

 

[dobre shunka]

That was no gap exchange. Troy was playing the faux-ilb, and they do do gap exchanges on occasion with ILB/OLB and DE/OLB. McFadden's big run in 2012 for example was a gap exchange between Keisel and Timmons they got caught in. But Polamalu gave no indication whatsoever presnap or post that he was the outside loop. Jones **** it jumping under the FB to crash on the RB. His first steps were upfield. If it was an exchange, his job is to get into the B gap between the tackle and guard. He's never gonna cross the tackles face starting upfield. And his alignment wouldn't have been as wide as it was.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

That was no gap exchange. Troy was playing the faux-ilb, and they do do gap exchanges on occasion with ILB/OLB and DE/OLB. McFadden's big run in 2012 for example was a gap exchange between Keisel and Timmons they got caught in. But Polamalu gave no indication whatsoever presnap or post that he was the outside loop. Jones **** it jumping under the FB to crash on the RB. His first steps were upfield. If it was an exchange, his job is to get into the B gap between the tackle and guard. He's never gonna cross the tackles face starting upfield. And his alignment wouldn't have been as wide as it was.

Found the play - you're right.

http://abload.de/img/tannehillsteelers1qtqt2.gif

I feel like there was a play last season where Troy got caught looping and the defense got gashed, but it wasn't this one.

 

[TMC]

Anyone watched any film on Justin Jackson of Wake Forest. He likely won't get drafted, won't be in many conversations. He played OLB this season and last season for WF. They play that 3 man front with 3-4 LBs and one being more of a rover/heavy safety. He moved around a lot, covered receivers in the slot, walked down to the line, etc. What interests me is, he played MLB in 2011 and started the last three games for WF (had a torn ACL in 2010, dunno if it slowed him and that is why he started later or if they had better). He ended up leading the team in tackles for LBs, even though he only started 3 games. He needs some work, still very much a work in progress, but he has something.

He is willing to be physical. He will take on blocks. He is not an elite tackling machine, but he will make plays. He will fill the interior running lanes. He gets good depth on drops and flashes some solid ability in man coverages. Size is an issue because he is 6004-233. Not ideal. He did not run at the regional combine, so his 40 time is not out, but he is said to have ran a 4.53 on Wake Forest's bio page and was listed in an article for freak athletes as having a 4.44 forty. He threw the bar up 27 times. He has a 39.5" VJ and his BJ is 10'3". His shuttle number was a 4.29 with a 6.75 cone drill. He put up those numbers with a tweaked hamstring.

I think he falls out the draft. I know Atlanta has shown some interest. Outside of that, nada.....I would certainly make him a PFA.

 

[Wingman]

If he is that interesting of a prospect as he sounds like from your post why would he not be worth a 7th round pick, then you are sure to have him and not have him take a shot for a different team. And I guess the best question would be how many guys do you think will be there in the seventh round that you would rather have?

 

[TMC]

If he is that interesting of a prospect as he sounds like from your post why would he not be worth a 7th round pick, then you are sure to have him and not have him take a shot for a different team. And I guess the best question would be how many guys do you think will be there in the seventh round that you would rather have?

You never know that until the 7th round. And, I am hoping we draft an ILB earlier, somewhere, and if that happens, I do not want to spend 2 picks on an ILB. But, I would get him into camp if I could.

 

[tapeANaspirin2it]

You just described about 10-12 guys in every draft. Go look up the NCAA's all-time reception leaders and tell me how well it correlates to NFL success.



His technique is not good and he's a body catcher. Consistently. He makes a basket with his forearms. Doesn't inspire confidence in his ability to be a possession receiver.



His 40 wasn't "not great" - it was extremely slow, among the slowest at the combine. Kelvin Benjamin ran a faster 40 at 6'5" 240. Yes, a WR so heavy scouts are talking about moving him to TE. Robinson then ran a mediocre 40 at his Pro Day, but all 40s are skewed at Pro Days, since it's their coaches and buddies timing them. Just about every prospect on Earth stunningly drops from a 4.55 to a 4.30 at his Pro Day. Besides, Robinson had to drop 12 pounds in less than a month just to run even a decent 40. That doesn't inspire confidence that he'll ever be able to get downfield, which he didn't do well on film.

What will hurt him more is his inability to explode off the line. He has a hitch to his first step, making his lack of speed even more troubling. He's a galloper who runs straight-legged; I doubt he'll ever challenge anyone deep. Besides, think about the 12 pounds he abruptly dropped for his Pro Day. Do you want a WR who's 6'3" 208? That's incredibly lanky. What happens when he packs those 12 pounds back on?

Yes, combine numbers can be misleading, though perhaps a better term would be misunderstood or poorly applied. This is especially prevalent when you have a blowhard expert prattling on about the 40 time of a 350-lb NT. Or more often, when you hear a prospect get lambasted for running a "pathetic" 4.52 while another gets first-round praise for running a 4.48. But normalized, position-specific workout numbers CAN tell a lot about the explosiveness and top-end speed needed at a player's position.

Combine numbers should not write a prospect's book. But they can be very valid in aligning the eyeball test with production and, ultimately, reasonable perception. In Robinson's case, he looks slow on film AND ran slow in his normalized 40. As a result, I feel fairly confident in calling him relatively slow.

There's a lot I hate about Robinson's film. His get-off sucks. He's not fast and will struggle to separate. He has poor catching technique. And I don't see him zig-zagging east-west through NFL defenses like he did against the Slow Ten. I think his best-case scenario is a mistake-prone possession guy. Maybe he'll be Nate Burleson. I'm not taking that in the 2nd and leaving someone like Adams or Latimer or Moncrief on the board.

I don't know what 2 minute clip you saw on youtube that fueled your wrong conclusions. Robinson is a hand catcher outside the numbers and a body catcher in traffic, like you're supposed to be.

Body catching is sometimes warranted. Yes, it's bad if that is all you can do, but if you try to hand catch with a guy in close coverage, it's getting knocked away. There are situations when you are supposed to body catch, like in traffic or going for a low ball. Robinson is a hand catcher who can high point a ball.

I have no idea where you are getting Robinson doesn't get off the line. That's what he is best at. Aside from my eyes that have watched him get off the line quickly for 2 years, the draft reports i've seen have noted he's good at getting off the line with his quickness and getting separation with good route running.

Most college WR do struggle to get off the press of NFL CBs because NFL CBs are so much better, but Robinson is better at it than most so if you list it as a weakness for him then you have to think most other WRs in this draft will never get off the line ever

Mike Evans didn't like the press coverage he got vs Duke. He got penalized for taking a swing at Cockrell who was getting in his head.

You don't like his top end speed, that's fine. But this other stuff you're saying about him is way off. Keenan Allen ran a 4.7 last year. He had a damn good year because he's a great route runner with quickness. Jerry Rice also ran a slow 40.

Route running and quickness are more important than 40 time. Name the greatest WRs of all time and it's not a track team.

You may have well just written Robinson played in the Big Ten and you think everybody in the big ten sucks.

 

[Idioteque]

I don't know what 2 minute clip you saw on youtube that fueled your wrong conclusions. Robinson is a hand catcher outside the numbers and a body catcher in traffic, like you're supposed to be.

LOL. I've watched several games' worth of film. I know you're desperate to defend any and all things Big Ten, but he struggles mightily to remember to snatch the ball. Even when wide open. Pretty much every scouting report agrees with that.

Body catching is sometimes warranted. Yes, it's bad if that is all you can do, but if you try to hand catch with a guy in close coverage, it's getting knocked away. There are situations when you are supposed to body catch, like in traffic or going for a low ball.

That's misleading. Body catching is never warranted, as in making a basket with your hands and torso and waiting for the ball to get trapped in there. This is what Robinson does too often. The ideal thing is to secure the ball with your hands - only your hands - and immediately tuck it away into your body. But at all times, the smart thing is to catch with your hands alone. As soon as you wait for the ball to hit your chest, you're inviting it to bounce off.

Robinson is a hand catcher who can high point a ball.

Can, but often doesn't. When he goes up, you often see him cradle it in his chest. Going up to the high point is the MOST important time to hand-snatch a ball. You can also see him struggle to control the throw sometimes, juggling it just a bit even on a wide-open slant or curl. Sorry, but I don't see him as a natural catcher.

I have no idea where you are getting Robinson doesn't get off the line. That's what he is best at.

LOL, let's hope not.

Man, he's just the best at everything. I can't imagine why he's not a consensus top-10 guy.

Aside from my eyes that have watched him get off the line quickly for 2 years,

Quite frankly, as knowledgeable as you are, your eyes mean jackshit when it comes to the Big Ten and the SEC because your brain distorts it all wildly.

Most college WR do struggle to get off the press of NFL CBs because NFL CBs are so much better, but Robinson is better at it than most so if you list it as a weakness for him then you have to think most other WRs in this draft will never get off the line ever

Robinson has an ugly hitch in his get-off. Which means that, not only is he slow, he also tends to be inefficient off the line. Now, I may be wrong on this. He may be trying to use hesitation to freeze or deceive the secondary. But let's be frank - when you're already painfully slow, let's not compound the issue, LOL.

You don't like his top end speed, that's fine. But this other stuff you're saying about him is way off. Keenan Allen ran a 4.7 last year.

Allen was injured when he ran his 40.

You may have well just written Robinson played in the Big Ten and you think everybody in the big ten sucks.

Cody Latimer is a far, far better receiver whom I would take in the first. I'm probably bigger on him than anyone. I like Abbrederis too. Carlos Hyde is my #2 RB and I have Shazier as my top LB. My problem with Robinson is that I don't think he's going to be very good.