Can a defensive player win the Heisman Again? Coolie Pimps Ed Oliver

[CoolieMan]

Doubt it. He's not even the best DL in his class. His sack #'s are weak.

he won the Outland Trophy as a true sophomore...the first one EVER.

he is the best interior lineman in college

coach I posted both the OU and Louisville games last year...as for taking 3 hours to watch a current game, that is what DVR is for...

as for how he is used..watching the OU game won't help much for this season. That was a different head coach and defensive coordinator, but it will show you his skills

Watched the Tulsa game again and even in the third quarter when Tulsa was running the ball down the cougars throat, the DC never switched to a 4-3....third and long he stayed in a 3-4

the guy is not a great DC...but Oliver is a great DL

 

[mr peeples]

he won the Outland Trophy as a true sophomore...the first one EVER.

he is the best interior lineman in college

coach I posted both the OU and Louisville games last year...as for taking 3 hours to watch a current game, that is what DVR is for...

as for how he is used..watching the OU game won't help much for this season. That was a different head coach and defensive coordinator, but it will show you his skills

Watched the Tulsa game again and even in the third quarter when Tulsa was running the ball down the cougars throat, the DC never switched to a 4-3....third and long he stayed in a 3-4

the guy is not a great DC...but Oliver is a great DL

From what I can tell, he is pretty awesome. But I was just responding to the original question: Can he win the Heisman?

 

[Stryker]

Watching the full game online is even easier. I was only watching the defensive side of the football game and clicked through stoppages, penalties, replays and I think it took like 20min. Not bad to get a full read and evaluate talent. It's game tape like this that jumps off the page for scouts.

 

[CoolieMan]

Watching the full game online is even easier. I was only watching the defensive side of the football game and clicked through stoppages, penalties, replays and I think it took like 20min. Not bad to get a full read and evaluate talent. It's game tape like this that jumps off the page for scouts.

coach ain't got no time for that

when I'm watching live games I'm just watching for entertainment...I watch later looking for how guys did...and will do the same, just skip through everything but the plays I want to see whether it is an offensive or defensive kid I am watching

 

[Coach]

It isn't my debate, if it was you can damn sure bet I would watch more than "clips".

A full game isn't worth your time, then your opinion isn't worth ours.

Really simple coach put in the time to watch who you are debating or expect everyone to take zero stock in what you are saying.

So you had some assessment on Burns that is noteworthy?

Oh please by all means please direct me to that thread, so I can witness greatness.

But let us be fair I know what you aren't capable of, and that is watching game tape when evaluating talent..

You don't read my stuff very well. If you did, you might notice Interior defensive lineman usually do not go in the top ten in NFL drafts, and those who do are often from programs that play better competition. You aren't capable of picking up on the obvious. I don't care if NFL mock draft site has Oliver in their top ten, he's falling now, they are getting it.

Small, zero sacks, weak competition.

I will watch a game of his online.

But do find my Burns film evaluation, I nailed it, and l was on record saying take cornerback X. Howard and the trade down for the 3rd and pick Saftey Simmons. Which would you take, the Steelers choice here or mine? I'm wondering if you can be honest...show me by replying to this question Slash steel.

Had the Steelers done this we would have a better corner and safety. There's a sample of what I'm capable of.

 

[Coach]

It isn't my debate, if it was you can damn sure bet I would watch more than "clips".

A full game isn't worth your time, then your opinion isn't worth ours.

Really simple coach put in the time to watch who you are debating or expect everyone to take zero stock in what you are saying.

So you had some assessment on Burns that is noteworthy?

Oh please by all means please direct me to that thread, so I can witness greatness.

But let us be fair I know what you aren't capable of, and that is watching game tape when evaluating talent..

You don't read my stuff very well. If you did, you might notice Interior defensive lineman usually do not go in the top ten in NFL drafts, and those who do are often from programs that play better competition. You aren't capable of picking up on the obvious. I don't care if NFL mock draft site has Oliver in their top ten, he's falling now, they are getting it.

Small, zero sacks, weak competition.

I will watch a game of his online.

But do find my Burns film evaluation, I nailed it, and l was on record saying take cornerback X. Howard and the trade down for the 3rd and pick Saftey Simmons. Which would you take, the Steelers choice here or mine? I'm wondering if you can be honest...show me by replying to this question Slash steel.

Had the Steelers done this we would have a better corner and safety. There's a sample of what I'm capable of.

 

[Drink IRON City]

Houston mainly stays in a 3-4 with Oliver over the center, he ran a few plays outside in the 3-4 set but not many. when UH goes to a 4-3, he is a DT, but they do not do a lot of that either. Their defensive coordinator this season is an idiot and they don't bring pressure as much as they have in past seasons. When they finally started bringing pressure last night, they forced errors by the young Tulsa QB and took over the game.

UH's schedule is softer this season, Navy and Memphis have not been as tough as the past few years and they miss out on UCF in the regular season, but if they hold court they should meet UCF in the Conference Championship.

They were on ESPN last night you should have tuned it in.

The game film for the OU game from 2016 and the Lousivile game are both out on youtube to watch...He had good games against both ranked teams.

really don't care about your breakdown as your mind is made up anyway....

Maybe this has been answered somewhere but here it is again.........


Would OLIVER be a 3-down player here in the NFL ? And where would you project him playing if the STEELERS acquired him at 11th overall as that is as far as the STEELERS could move up from 32....




Salute the nation

 

[CoolieMan]

Maybe this has been answered somewhere but here it is again.........


Would OLIVER be a 3-down player here in the NFL ? And where would you project him playing if the STEELERS acquired him at 11th overall as that is as far as the STEELERS could move up from 32....




Salute the nation

to play nose tackle at the next level he will likely need to add 20 pounds or so and I think he has the frame to do it and not lose his quickness. I think his explosiveness would make him a 3 down player either at NT or DT in the NFL

 

[CoolieMan]

Coolie is trying to make it out like Oliver is NT only in a 3 man line. He says NT and 3-4 over and over again. I asked for a breakdown of how often Houston plays 4 DL players.

Here's what I know, Oliver has 0 sacks in either the 3-4, 4-3, nickel, or dime. I have seen his clips before. Have you? A full game, sorry that's not worth my time when it's on live. I have better ways to spend 3 hours.

However, just for some fun, I might watch an online game just looking at the defense and #10. Remember my Burns review after watching his targets? Rather spot on! Check it out, then maybe just maybe you'll what I am capable of.

-Coach

why the **** should I provide you a breakdown of anything? do your own work...or find an article somewhere that gives you your talking points

 

[Ike Kelly]

You don't read my stuff very well. If you did, you might notice Interior defensive lineman usually do not go in the top ten in NFL drafts, and those who do are often from programs that play better competition. You aren't capable of picking up on the obvious.

You don’t read your own stuff that well either. DL drafted in the top 10.

2018 #5 - Bradley Chubb
2017 #3 - Solomon Thomas
2016 #3 - Joey Bosa
#7 - Dee Buckner
2015 #6 - Leonard Williams
2014 #1 - Jadevon Clooney
2013 #3 - Dion Jordan
#5 - Ziggy Ansah
2012 - Dontare Poe and Fletcher Cox went back to back at 11-12
2011 #7 - Aldon Smith (JJ Watt went at #11)
2010 #2 - N. Suh
#3 - Gerald McCoy
#10 - Tyson Alualu

12 players in 9 years. Stick your head in your own comments and wait for someone to ask you a question. It may take awhile, but it could happen. Otherwise, let the adults talk.

Small, zero sacks, weak competition.

I will watch a game of his online.

All this hot air from you evaluating Oliver and you have never seen him play a game. Again I applaud you for being the board’s resident clown poster.

I can admit I’m no expert evaluator, but I do understand the game, the science and the strategy of the players, individually and as a unit.

I’ve watched Oliver several times and if he stays healthy he will be better than 1/2 the players listed above.


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[tapeANaspirin2it]

I can't see the steelers taking Oliver even if he somehow fell to them. Can anybody see them drafting anything but a pass rushing OLB or a ILB with coverage skills?

I remember the draft with Ed Reed. The steelers desperately needed a safety and the Ravens took Reed in front of them. The next year, the steelers traded up to get Polamalu.

That reminds me of this past draft where they missed out on the 1st round ILBs. I have a feeling next year they are landing a top pass coverage ILB either through free agency or the draft.


As for the Heisman, i don't pay that much attention anymore. It has become more of a team award than an award to the best player in college football. That's why it keeps going to mediocre Bama RBs and unbeaten QBs.

 

[Coach]

Yo Coolie and others following this thread,

I'm going to watch a game and grade Oliver. Since Houston plays many easy opponents, picking a game to judge Oliver isn't easy. I picked the Arizona game as I found the entire game on line. Arizona is now 3-3, hardly a powerhouse. I plan to watch the defensive series and comment as I go, listing a time mark close to the play so we can review it if necessary. To throw you a bone, I like Houston's band and drum cadence. Let's focus on #10!


Red = bad play by #10.
Green = Good play

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVpPPsfQki0

Quarter 1

10:38 Oliver pushed backward and pancaked by Arizona's center. Yikes.

11:14 Oliver walled out on a block.

11:45 Oliver lines up vs tackle to rush the passer, and is easily taken out of the play, not close to the QB

12:15. Houston in a 4-3. Oliver blocked, but sees the play and slides to his right to make the tackle a few yard past the line of scrimmage. Good awareness.

12:37 Houston in 4-3. Oliver easily handled again, the RB falls down without being touched with Oliver not close to him.

13:08. 3rd and 8. A 4 man rush,Oliver easily handed by the guard in the pass rush, the ball is tipped by the receiver and a Houston player gets the interception.


2nd series for Houston defense

18:04 easily blocked on a short pass. Not much time to judge though.

19:02 Oliver easily blocked on a quick throw to the outside.

19:50 4- man line for Houston. Oliver blocked down to the turf on a pass rush.

20:29 3rd and short. The announcer says Oliver is about 275 pounds in reality... Oliver double teamed here, the OL man pushes Oliver unwisely into the RB, another Houston defender makes the tackle, Oliver in the mix thanks to the OL pushing him toward the running back

Coach's Two series summary: Oliver is easy to push around by Arizona's center or guard. Somehow I doubt either will play in the NFL. His pass rushes are not impressive as an interior lineman, and he's was a zero on the outside pass rush vs Arizona's right tackle. Houston plays their share of 4 man fronts. Is Oliver really just 275 pounds as the announcer said? That is very light for an interior defensive lineman. NFL Center's and Guards will have 35+ pounds on him. By my eyes, Oliver's arms are on the shorter side and this hurts his pass rush. His feel for the game and nose for the ball when the action is near him looks good. I'll watch more action later.


2nd viewing


Houston up 21-0 on an easy touchdown pass. They left the man in motion wide open in zone. Arizona has to pass. Let’s see Oliver pass rush , he will get plenty of chances.



26:35 Oliver easily blocked, RB goes wide to his left and pick up 5 yards.

26:55 mark. Houston with 4 men on the line, Oliver finally breaks through for a QB pressure and with the aid of others after him forces a throw away. Good play

27:29 5 men at the line. Oliver loops around and doesn’t make contact on an incomplete pass play forcing a punt



32:18 Houston in 3-4. Oliver take out of a running play and moved away from the hole by their center. Not even close. Oliver when he locks up, can be move to easily. Poor 2 gap ability for a NT on that play.

32:30: Run to the right. Oliver not in the play

33:05 Three down lineman, Oliver in the middle. They blitz a man, Oliver easily held up on a double team.

33:41. Three man line. Oliver looks like he was suckered by the OL player as he left him run in on running play that went to the right, preventing any pursuit.

34:12 4 men at the line. Oliver gets pressure this time, but the throw isn’t bothered.

34:45 Oliver caught up in the traffic, might be a bit suspect to counter type of plays because he plays so aggressively.

35:14 4 men at the line, Oliver on the bench. Houston D gets the running back for the loss.

36:36 3rd and 12. Pass rush not there, pass incomplete.

 

[CoolieMan]

10:38...Oliver is not pancaked by the center..he is pushed to the outside and then falls to the ground with the center jumping on him ....
a pancake block the OL knocks the defender on his back and crushes him....

11:45 @ DL set, Oliver lines up inside of the OT and is double teamed. He has his head up and sees the OB rolling to the left, sheds the tackle and chases QB..he throws it before the pursuit can get there
12:15 the are in a three DL set with a LB up on the line ( not really a 4-3)
12:37 once again a 3 DL set with a LB on the line outside (ed is over center)...he stands up the blocker and sees the ball flowing to his right so he sheds the block...QB falls for no reason (later see he hurt his ankle) Oliver is almost in front of him when he falls

Having a LB on the line is not a 4-3....they had a few plays were two LBs moved up to the line and one drops back at the snap...that did not make it a 5-2

you realize Oliver's first read is the run...watch when he makes first contact with the OL, his head is up and he is looking for where the ball is....that is why on quick passes you can say easily handled...NO DL would have the time to shed the block and make a play on those passes.

 

[slashsteel]

10:38...Oliver is not pancaked by the center..he is pushed to the outside and then falls to the ground with the center jumping on him ....
a pancake block the OL knocks the defender on his back and crushes him....

11:45 @ DL set, Oliver lines up inside of the OT and is double teamed. He has his head up and sees the OB rolling to the left, sheds the tackle and chases QB..he throws it before the pursuit can get there
12:15 the are in a three DL set with a LB up on the line ( not really a 4-3)
12:37 once again a 3 DL set with a LB on the line outside (ed is over center)...he stands up the blocker and sees the ball flowing to his right so he sheds the block...RB falls for no reason Oliver is almost in front of him when he falls

Having a LB on the line is not a 4-3....they had a few plays were two LBs moved up to the line and one drops back at the snap...that did not make it a 5-2

you realize Oliver's first read is the run...watch when he makes first contact with the OL, his head is up and he is looking for where the ball is....that is why on quick passes you can say easily handled...NO DL would have the time to shed the block and make a play on those passes.

As soon as I saw all the red I knew it was skewed to him trying to down play Oliver.

I remember when I would watch film and TMC would watch film we often had a different perspective. And that was without having a agenda before watching the game tape.

I give coach a A for finally watching some game tape. Finally, amazingly.

I give him a F for his eval. For not watching it with a open mind, but full throttling down on the agenda.

 

[CoolieMan]

As soon as I saw all the read I knew it was skewed to him trying to down play Oliver.

I remember when I would watch film and TMC would watch film we often had a different perspective. And that was without having a agenda before the game tape.

I give coach a A for finally watching some game tape. Finally, amazingly.

I give him a F for his eval. For not watching it with a open mind, but full throttling down on the agenda.

This wasn't one of Ed's best games, he only had 5 tackles and 0.5 TFLs a pass defended and 4 QB pressures

on the 20:29 play, he is right that Oliver is double teamed and the the guy to his outside does push him toward the play, but Oliver drives the other one back into the RBs path and slows him down and clogs the hole...so others make the tackle when the RB tries a different route....

just like all defenders there are plays where he gets blocked..usually when it is 2 on 1

and Yes, I will tend to see things through UH colored lenses....but Oliver is not as much of a pushover as coach would like to claim. When the OL has been stood up and Ed is looking over his shoulder to locate the ball, Oliver is not the one being handled.

 

[Coach]

10:38...Oliver is not pancaked by the center..he is pushed to the outside and then falls to the ground with the center jumping on him ....
a pancake block the OL knocks the defender on his back and crushes him....

11:45 @ DL set, Oliver lines up inside of the OT and is double teamed. He has his head up and sees the OB rolling to the left, sheds the tackle and chases QB..he throws it before the pursuit can get there
12:15 the are in a three DL set with a LB up on the line ( not really a 4-3)
12:37 once again a 3 DL set with a LB on the line outside (ed is over center)...he stands up the blocker and sees the ball flowing to his right so he sheds the block...QB falls for no reason (later see he hurt his ankle) Oliver is almost in front of him when he falls

Having a LB on the line is not a 4-3....they had a few plays were two LBs moved up to the line and one drops back at the snap...that did not make it a 5-2

you realize Oliver's first read is the run...watch when he makes first contact with the OL, his head is up and he is looking for where the ball is....that is why on quick passes you can say easily handled...NO DL would have the time to shed the block and make a play on those passes.

Coolie,

A "pancake block"; sometimes shortened to "cake"; is a particularly effective block where the player being blocked is pushed onto the ground by a blocker, metaphorically "flattening" the opposing defender into a "pancake". That happens here on the first play! If you want to call it something different, he was manhandled and fell down a few yards behind the line of scrimmage. Does that describe it better?

Houston has many 4 man fronts, the way you make it out he's a 3-4 NT. Not really, as I pointed out they move him to end and he was fish out of water on that play. For the future, I will point out a 3 man or 4 man front with no distinction of if one of the players is a linebacker.

I didn't give him a bad review on quick passes other than to say I saw zero push.

But the question I have for you is this. Is Oliver 275 pounds? That is way too light. As mentioned before his height of 6'3" tall seems generous. I'll have fun here, as one really can't hide with the film. My early viewing is this is an under powered / sized DL player, with good awareness and agility, but not close to being a threat as an NFL pass rusher.

 

[Coach]

As soon as I saw all the red I knew it was skewed to him trying to down play Oliver.

I remember when I would watch film and TMC would watch film we often had a different perspective. And that was without having a agenda before watching the game tape.

I give coach a A for finally watching some game tape. Finally, amazingly.

I give him a F for his eval. For not watching it with a open mind, but full throttling down on the agenda.

Film has no agenda. I am calling them as I see them vs. a very mediocre opponent. Whatever bias I might have will be balanced by Coolie being a homer and then some!

Thanks for the A though, you should check out my film review on Burns, you might nod your head.

And check out the film and plays with the time stamp I posted. This way you can see if I'm being fair or not. Deal?

 

[mr peeples]

I can't see the steelers taking Oliver even if he somehow fell to them. Can anybody see them drafting anything but a pass rushing OLB or a ILB with coverage skills?

I remember the draft with Ed Reed. The steelers desperately needed a safety and the Ravens took Reed in front of them. The next year, the steelers traded up to get Polamalu.

That reminds me of this past draft where they missed out on the 1st round ILBs. I have a feeling next year they are landing a top pass coverage ILB either through free agency or the draft.


As for the Heisman, i don't pay that much attention anymore. It has become more of a team award than an award to the best player in college football. That's why it keeps going to mediocre Bama RBs and unbeaten QBs.

It's been a "beauty contest" for long time now. I just simply don't care; if they stopped doing it all together I couldn't care less. But Oliver is now being pimped as a possible #1 pick overall in the draft. Tons of time and play to occur before we get there, but even being mentioned in that breath is impressive.

 

[Stryker]

Kudos for the film eval Coach. The more film I watch, the better I get at eval. It's a process, but you can get a lot out of it.

You have to check out his first start as a true freshman against Baker Mayfield. Oliver puts on a clinic.

 

[CoolieMan]

The pancake block is a term that is used by offensive line coach and offensive linemen in football to describe a block that leaves a defensive player flat on his back as the running back goes through the hole

the play you call a pancake Oliver hits the center, the play is going to his left so he heads that way with the center hanging on and as he tries to disengage the center basically tackles him....

running a 4 man front with an LB is not the same as running a 4-3

one announcer said 275 like he knew the other says he is 280+ when they show him running the footwork drills....won't know his true weight until the combine

Open minded? the play you stamp at 12:37 and you state the RB falls and OLiver is not near him..if you watch you will see it is the QB and Oliver is coming down the line of scrimmage and is right in front of him when he falls to the ground.

 

[CoolieMan]

some one other than me or coach watch the play that starts around 10:36 and tell us if that is a pancake block
and if the pass rush at 11:45 "he gets no where near the QB..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVpPPsfQki0

 

[Ike Kelly]

This is considered an evaluation by Coach after two defensive series? Two series!.


Sent from my iPad using Steeler Nation mobile app

 

[Drink IRON City]

some one other than me or coach watch the play that starts around 10:36 and tell us if that is a pancake block
and if the pass rush at 11:45 "he gets no where near the QB..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVpPPsfQki0

PANCAKE is for eating but OLIVER wasn't pancaked at all.
It appears Oliver goes down on his own free will.
By free will I mean doing what he is suppose to be doing... And defensive players fall



Salute the nation

 

[Ike Kelly]

some one other than me or coach watch the play that starts around 10:36 and tell us if that is a pancake block
and if the pass rush at 11:45 "he gets no where near the QB..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVpPPsfQki0

Uh...no. That was not a pancake block. Oliver managed to disengage and was trying to get to the ball carrier side, all the while the OL was hanging on him. He either slipped or lost his footing and fell down, WITH the OL falling with him. You see Oliver after the play talking to the official about he was being held.

Coach obviously doesn’t know what a pancake block is and is seeing through his “I have to BS may way out of this bet” lenses. You formulate an “informed” opinion on a player after only two series in one game. Again you have explained “his head is to big to play” method. Its laughable.


Sent from my iPad using Steeler Nation mobile app

 

[Coach]

This wasn't one of Ed's best games, he only had 5 tackles and 0.5 TFLs a pass defended and 4 QB pressures

on the 20:29 play, he is right that Oliver is double teamed and the the guy to his outside does push him toward the play, but Oliver drives the other one back into the RBs path and slows him down and clogs the hole...so others make the tackle when the RB tries a different route....

just like all defenders there are plays where he gets blocked..usually when it is 2 on 1

and Yes, I will tend to see things through UH colored lenses....but Oliver is not as much of a pushover as coach would like to claim. When the OL has been stood up and Ed is looking over his shoulder to locate the ball, Oliver is not the one being handled.

Coolie,

Now you saying he didn't play well vs Arizona? Wow, those goal posts are moving back quickly. You didn't say that until I commented later. You said watch the film, and I'm doing that. I call them as the video shows, and Arizona is by no means a good team. Those who follow along can see the plays I put in red and match the time to judge for themselves.

I've noticed a few things:

1 ) Oliver isn't double teamed often on this film, meaning the coaches on the other side thing they can handle him 1 on 1 often with what they have.

2 ) His pass rush is very suspect. Terrible vs Tackles. His bull rush looks average. He's got to win with quickness.

3 ) He is a lighter weight Defensive lineman and can be pushed around at the college level vs mediocre teams. What is going to happen in the NFL??? A liability as a run defender?

4 ) Houston plays many 4 man fronts, and often has a big lead giving Oliver a greater chance for splash plays when the other team is passing. Yet he not making many of them this year.

5 ) The announcer he’s really 275 pounds. What in your opinion is his playing weight? I think that is too light for the NFL today for an interior defensive lineman.

6 ) Oliver is not a 5 technique guy, nor is he a true NT 2 gap type. Not close to a wide 9 guy either. He's a 1 and 3 technique type of Defensive Lineman. NFL teams that have good corners and like to play man that play a 4-3 system that ask their Defensive Tackles to shoot the gaps often might want him the most on draft day.


I'll tell you what, you can use a mulligan here. Pick any game this year where I can view the film. I'm curious if he's soloing these big plays ( Beating his man and getting to the ball carrier by himself or not. ) My suspension is can get past a center or guard who will never play in the NFL, and has his share of tackles for losses flushed to him by other defenders. But to clarify I’ll need to watch more film.