Covid Vaccine

[oneforthebus]

Because you haven't been tracking the debate between he and I. It began with Badcat's post. Floggy told him he wasn't entitled to his own facts and posted the WA State data again. Which in fact proved Badcat's point.

And the data and charts do tell a bad story. Again if you track it month to month.

If you don't want to go back and read the month to month analyses, then the chat between you and I is pointless. You cannot look at that chart to get a current state of the union. I've said since day one the WA state data, as represented, is highly misleading. The trend month to month is what matters. And that trend shows the vaccinated not being as protected as we are told they are being. The trend worsens month to month.

If it's highly misleading why did you post it?

 

[oneforthebus]

This is your post, right?

Not exactly.

True vaccines prevent death.

These? Not so much.

Who we kidding? They suck.

Real quick question for you, if you'll answer (of course you won't)....do vaccines prevent mass death? Yes or no.

 

[oneforthebus]

So to answer your question, do they prevent all deaths? No. Do they, according to this chart, greatly reduce the rate of death? Yes.

 

[Troglodyte]

Round and round. Once again...3,700 families in Washington say you're wrong. Tens of thousands have died after being jabbed. Maybe hundreds.

Worldwide, over a million people die each year in traffic accidents, I guess seatbelts REALLY don’t work?

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

No, actually you posted it saying "See? 44% of deaths were in the vaccinated". As if that's a terrible statistic.

No that actually is the genesis of why I originally posted the data. Flog waved it around 2 years ago when it was far more highly skewed. It was from Feb 21 to September 21, just when the vaccines were beginning to wane. And he said see see see how great the shots are.

It was misinformation (still is) and I called it out. As a result, I began tracking it month to month and using only the delta numbers. And the data was and continues to be damning. Again, feel free to go back and look.

But when 90% of people are vaccinated it's actually a pretty good statistic. Means that less than half the deaths were in the overwhelming majority of people who are vaccinated.. More than half the deaths were in a tiny fraction who are not. That shows effectiveness at preventing deaths, though certainly not 100% effectiveness.

Again, you're reading the data incorrectly. You're assuming 90% of the people have been vaxed since Feb 21 when the report begins. When the data begins. That's why it is misleading. In the summer of 21, they weren't half vaccinated. But most of the deaths were occurring then until Jan/Feb of 2022. Most of the deaths occurred back when the vaccination rate was much lower.

The chart today makes it "look" like 90% have always been vaccinated and all of the deaths in the unvaxxed came from 10% of the people. Which is absolutely not the case.

Thus, as I keep saying, you have to look at the month over month data. And when you do, you see each month cases, hospitalizations and deaths increase for the vaxed and decrease for the unvaxed. That's the news.

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

Worldwide, over a million people die each year in traffic accidents, I guess seatbelts REALLY don’t work?

If you want to concede that these shots don't prevent death and essentially are a flu shot, we can come to agreement.

That hasn't been your position though. Your position has been that these are highly effective vaccines and people don't die when shotted.

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

If it's highly misleading why did you post it?

Floggy brought the data to this thread 2 years ago, I did not.

As the State of Washington presents the data, is is willfully misleading.

So I dug into it, and did the analysis. What are the numbers after the first 6 months of vaccination (when we all know the drugs performed)? I provided 4 separate updates, comparing one time period to another. In each, the trends worsened for the vaccinated, improved for the unvaxxed.

There is GOOD data in there if you do the manual work to glean it out. "As presented" it is misleading. Dissected, you can get to more of the truth, which I've provided.

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

This is your post, right?

Not exactly.

True vaccines prevent death.

These? Not so much.

Who we kidding? They suck.

Real quick question for you, if you'll answer (of course you won't)....do vaccines prevent mass death? Yes or no.

Yep and it was presented to Floggy in a certain context. He contended/contends the vaccines prevent death. I've never argued they don't. I have consistently argued that over time, they prevent fewer and fewer deaths. This is scientifically established. The graph, presented in this context - his data - was presented to say see, even when not broken down in a month to month trend, presented as it is, shows people who are vaccinated are dying. 3,700 from Sept 21 spanning 15 months. That data refuted his very simple argument that the vaccines are keeping people from dying.

They are not.

If you want to see the month to month, periodic data broken down showing the trend (which is what matters), feel free:
https://www.steelernation.com/forums/threads/covid-vaccine.36523/post-866401
https://www.steelernation.com/forums/threads/covid-vaccine.36523/post-872088
https://www.steelernation.com/forums/threads/covid-vaccine.36523/post-901203
https://www.steelernation.com/forums/threads/covid-vaccine.36523/post-873049

A few pages ago, I broke down the following to add to the links above for him (all of the following said to him):

For the period Oct 5, 2021 to Dec 2022:
Total vaccinated deaths: 3,697 (56%)
Total unvaccinated deaths: 2,931 (44%)

As I said to you then, the numbers, over time, would continue to show the vaccines just aren't that effective. The numbers prove this.

October 2021 vaxxed people were 29% of all deaths and since they have risen to representing 56% of all deaths (27% increase)
October 2021 unvaxed people were 71% of all deaths and since they dropped to 44% (27% decrease)

The vaxxed population only increased by 15.8% during the same time period.

 

[steel dino]

View attachment 10349

When i saw that pic....I was hoping for a Willie Nelson video...

 

[oneforthebus]

Floggy brought the data to this thread 2 years ago, I did not.

As the State of Washington presents the data, is is willfully misleading.

So I dug into it, and did the analysis. What are the numbers after the first 6 months of vaccination (when we all know the drugs performed)? I provided 4 separate updates, comparing one time period to another. In each, the trends worsened for the vaccinated, improved for the unvaxxed.

There is GOOD data in there if you do the manual work to glean it out. "As presented" it is misleading. Dissected, you can get to more of the truth, which I've provided.

Well yes we know the efficacy waned over time and we also know that natural immunity started to prevent deaths in the unvaxxed as well as better treatments and the apparent reduction in virulence of the mutations themselves. Yet there remain lower death rates among vaxxed vs unvaxxed people. So the vaccines do prevent some deaths. They don’t prevent all deaths. Some is better than none, no?

 

[oneforthebus]

Yep and it was presented to Floggy in a certain context. He contended/contends the vaccines prevent death. I've never argued they don't. I have consistently argued that over time, they prevent fewer and fewer deaths. This is scientifically established. The graph, presented in this context - his data - was presented to say see, even when not broken down in a month to month trend, presented as it is, shows people who are vaccinated are dying. 3,700 from Sept 21 spanning 15 months. That data refuted his very simple argument that the vaccines are keeping people from dying.

They are not.

If you want to see the month to month, periodic data broken down showing the trend (which is what matters), feel free:
https://www.steelernation.com/forums/threads/covid-vaccine.36523/post-866401
https://www.steelernation.com/forums/threads/covid-vaccine.36523/post-872088
https://www.steelernation.com/forums/threads/covid-vaccine.36523/post-901203
https://www.steelernation.com/forums/threads/covid-vaccine.36523/post-873049

A few pages ago, I broke down the following to add to the links above for him (all of the following said to him):

For the period Oct 5, 2021 to Dec 2022:
Total vaccinated deaths: 3,697 (56%)
Total unvaccinated deaths: 2,931 (44%)

As I said to you then, the numbers, over time, would continue to show the vaccines just aren't that effective. The numbers prove this.

October 2021 vaxxed people were 29% of all deaths and since they have risen to representing 56% of all deaths.
October 2021 unvaxed people were 71% of all deaths and since they dropped to 44%.

Ok but if only 10% of people are unvaxxed and they are still accounting for almost half of all deaths that means their rate of death is still much higher.

 

[SteelerInLebanon]

Ok but if only 10% of people are unvaxxed and they are still accounting for almost half of all deaths that means their rate of death is still much higher.

You are missing the point that those are aggregate numbers and not indicative of the current trends only the gross numbers going back to when the vaccine was temporarily effective. If you analyze the data in real time not in aggregate you see that what was once true is no longer true.

 

[Iron95]

When i saw that pic....I was hoping for a Willie Nelson video...

He's an oooooold hippy and he dont know what to do............I forget the rest

 

[Superman]

Worldwide, over a million people die each year in traffic accidents, I guess seatbelts REALLY don’t work?

does your made up stats include pedestrians run over, motorcycle deaths, busses being crashed, idle cars with people inside...?

 

[Iron95]

Worldwide, over a million people die each year in traffic accidents, I guess seatbelts REALLY don’t work?

That was my analogy, and you can't have it.

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

Ok but if only 10% of people are unvaxxed and they are still accounting for almost half of all deaths that means their rate of death is still much higher.

That's the argument Floggy always resorts to....

Let me repeat. 10% of people who are unvaxxed are NOT accounting for currently half the deaths. Those numbers in those charts are CUMULATIVE. I don't think that is setting in. The data, being cumulative, goes from when WA was 5% vaxxed to 90% vaxxed. You can't look at today and say see....10% drove that many deaths. You have to look at the month to month or periodic trends.

If you take the time to read the month to month analyses I've put out there, it shows.

This is the operative data. Starting in early October 2021 (after the first 6 months that is STILL included in those charts):

October 2021: vaxxed people represented 29% of all deaths. Today they are 56% of all deaths - a 27% increase
October 2021 unvaxed people represented 71% of all deaths. Today they are 44% - a 27% decrease

During the same period the unvaxxed population decreased from 25.5% down to 9.7%. A 15.8% change.

If you told me the vaccination status in Washington state changed by 27%....there would be an argument.

 

[Confluence]

I am going by the data Tim posted.

Please. You know that you are taking it out of context, like you are suggesting that he is.

FFS

 

[Confluence]

This is your post, right?

Not exactly.

True vaccines prevent death.

These? Not so much.

Who we kidding? They suck.

Real quick question for you, if you'll answer (of course you won't)....do vaccines prevent mass death? Yes or no.

Vaccines as defined 10 years ago, yes.
Vaccines, with the definition changed to match the poor performance of the Covid flu shots? No. They actually harm more than they help

 

[oneforthebus]

That's the argument Floggy always resorts to....

Let me repeat. 10% of people who are unvaxxed are NOT accounting for currently half the deaths. Those numbers in those charts are CUMULATIVE. I don't think that is setting in. The data, being cumulative, goes from when WA was 5% vaxxed to 90% vaxxed. You can't look at today and say see....10% drove that many deaths. You have to look at the month to month or periodic trends.

If you take the time to read the month to month analyses I've put out there, it shows.

This is the operative data. Starting in early October 2021 (after the first 6 months that is STILL included in those charts):

October 2021: vaxxed people represented 29% of all deaths. Today they are 56% of all deaths - a 27% increase
October 2021 unvaxed people represented 71% of all deaths. Today they are 44% - a 27% decrease

During the same period the unvaxxed population decreased from 25.5% down to 9.7%. A 15.8% change.

If you told me the vaccination status in Washington state changed by 27%....there would be an argument.

You seem to be conflating the percent of all deaths with death rate. Yes, as more people become vaccinated, the share of deaths among the vaccinated will increase. As fewer people remain unvaccinated, the share of deaths among the unvaccinated will decrease. The RATE of death is still much higher in the unvaccinated than it is in the vaccinated.

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

It's a good thing we have people like Berenson and Taiibi and others.

https://alexberenson.substack.com/p/from-a-centers-for-disease-control

From a Centers for Disease Control insider: a short note on morale.​

Spoiler alert: it isn't good.​

I have confirmed this person’s identity. He wrote Friday, after my piece about Iraq. Here’s his note in its entirety:

Thanks for the very insightful piece. I've written to you before-I work at CDC. Initially people were very pro-vaccine, rushing to get boosters when they were first available, clamoring for the approval so they could jab their kids, etc.

Now some confide to me that they don't want more boosters, and the body count is getting noticeable-people in their 40s-60s mostly, representative of the workplace.

But I don't think they'll ever admit they were wrong: there's no face-saving way I can think of to back down and admit the truth.


—
Why should CDC employees be different than anyone else?
I’ve said it before, but if you work at CDC or an mRNA vaccine company or NIH or FDA, I would love to hear from you. Your confidentiality is assured.

 

[oneforthebus]

If everyone was vaccinated, the share of deaths among the unvaccinated would be 0%. Conversely, if no one was vaccinated the share of deaths in the unvaccinated would be 100%. Neither of those statistics are very meaningful. The rate of death within each group is what matters.

 

[oneforthebus]

Please. You know that you are taking it out of context, like you are suggesting that he is.

FFS

No, I’m not.

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

You seem to be conflating the percent of all deaths with death rate. Yes, as more people become vaccinated, the share of deaths among the vaccinated will increase. As fewer people remain unvaccinated, the share of deaths among the unvaccinated will decrease. The RATE of death is still much higher in the unvaccinated than it is in the vaccinated.

Let me repeat. I've never. Not once. Ever. Disagreed that the death rate among the vaxxed v the unvaxxed is different.

I have said that over time it will diminish and perhaps swing in the other direction. Which it is doing.

As evidenced by your inability to grasp that 10% of people are NOT driving all of the death numbers you see on those charts.

Let me ask you some quick questions. We can make this simple.

In June of 2021, were 90% of Washingtonians Vaccinated?
How many people died of Covid in 2022 v 2021 in WA state?

You continue to point to the charts and say "See! 10% of people drove all the deaths" while failing to realize the fallacy of the "CUMULATIVE" data skewing the results.

Let me repost. You are not understanding this data OFTB:

This is the operative data. Starting in early October 2021 (after the first 6 months that is STILL included in those charts):

October 2021: vaxxed people represented 29% of all deaths. Today they are 56% of all deaths - a 27% increase
October 2021 unvaxed people represented 71% of all deaths. Today they are 44% - a 27% decrease

During the same period the unvaxxed population decreased from 25.5% down to 9.7%. A 15.8% change.

If you told me the vaccination status in Washington state changed by 27%....there would be an argument.

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

Please. You know that you are taking it out of context, like you are suggesting that he is.

FFS

Truth.

She still doesn't understand why presenting the data cumulatively is "bad"

Not sure how else to explain it.

 

[oneforthebus]

Truth.

She still doesn't understand why presenting the data cumulatively is "bad"

Not sure how else to explain it.

I understand perfectly. You don’t seem to understand that even broken down by months it doesn’t say what you are claiming it says.