Deebo not a Tomlin fan?

[fedderone]

No pudding......... ???


Salute the nation

How can you have your pudding if you don’t eat your meat?!

 

[Ike Kelly]

Wait a minute. Who, outside of Pittsburgh, knew anything about James Harrison until Tomlin got to Pittsburgh? The most people knew about him was he was the guy who threw down that fan in Cleveland. It might not be too much of a stretch to say Harrison owes what his career became to Tomlin. I'd say he is being a little ungrateful.

This is also the same guy who most of you wouldn't have pissed on if he was on fire after he signed with the Patriots. I remember the board. You guys are like politicians...you hope most people forget.

Damn, you guys hate Tomlin so much you will grasp on to anything. It's almost pathological.

Cowher signed Deebo to the 53 first.

 

[Steelr4evr]

Cowher signed Deebo to the 53 first.

And Dick LeBeau aka "Coach Dad" really helped him become one of the greatest Steeler linebackers of all time.

 

[Stewey]

Recall when Deebo made his kid return his participation trophy he got from school. The kid did nothing to earn a trophy.

Maybe he should tell Tomlin to return the SB trophy because he won it with Cowhers players. lol

But joking aside, I'm not as anti-Tomlin as most.

 

[SojournerSteel]

Wait a minute. Who, outside of Pittsburgh, knew anything about James Harrison until Tomlin got to Pittsburgh? The most people knew about him was he was the guy who threw down that fan in Cleveland. It might not be too much of a stretch to say Harrison owes what his career became to Tomlin. I'd say he is being a little ungrateful.

This is also the same guy who most of you wouldn't have pissed on if he was on fire after he signed with the Patriots. I remember the board. You guys are like politicians...you hope most people forget.

Damn, you guys hate Tomlin so much you will grasp on to anything. It's almost pathological.

I wasn’t mad at Harrison for signing with New England. I feel like Tomlin promised him some type of situational role and then pulled the plug and left him on the couch. Maybe the same thing with Ingram. “We want volunteers and not hostages “was cute but it should not have happened multiple times in season. That would seem to tell us something was going on. Maybe Tomlin used his salesmanship and bullshitting to get those guys into the fold and that’s why they wanted out once they realized it wasn’t as portrayed. We’ve had multiple players now force their way out.

 

[madinsomniac]

Of course Dan was still there, he was technically still a face of the organization. But he was 70 years old and Art2 had been taking more and more duties until in 2003 when Dan ceded full day to day operations to him. At which time Dan did what his father did, met with players, coaches, staff, and all the personnel to enjoy the relationships he has made with the people there and assist his son when he asked. When Dan crashed his plane at Latrobe airport during the 2002 Training Camp, it is told that his wife gave him a earful that it’s time to start enjoying themselves with their grandchildren. Bouchette or Pruista even said Patricia had a frying pan in her hand when Dan arrived back from his crash (he was fine) to show how serious she was and for the scare he gave her. That is probably when the decision was put in motion.

As for how Cowher would have done with a franchise QB, this has been argued ad nauseam. Cowher’s never wanted a franchise QB, he had his QB with NOD, but unfortunately he took the money with the NYJ. Had he stayed, I’d contend Cowher probably would have made it back to the AFCC and have a better chance in a second SB. Cowher‘s offensive philosophy was the Perkins/Schottenheimer scheme of ball control rushing attack, with play action passing, win the game with defense. Since NOD left, Cowher had ample opportunities to get better than the Tomczak/Miller/Graham show before having some modicum of success with Kordell, until Cowher’s selection of OCs (Sherman, Gilbride) destroyed any hope with him being more than he was. He did later select Mularkey and then Whiz who used a insurance salesman/former journeyman to turn the offense into an aerial showcase first, then rushing attack to close out games. Then came Ben, who by the way, Cowher was not interested in selecting at first (Stacey Andrews was they player he wanted). It wasn’t until Dan who still sat in the War Room kept directing the discussion between Colbert and Cowher back to Ben, and passing up a QB (like he did with Marino haunted him) at such a high level pick may not be a smart decision for the future. The rest is history. Hell, even when Maddox got hurt and Ben started, Whiz kept him on a short leash - strict orders from Cowher so as to not deviate from the game plan. But he kept making great throws and had superb improv skills, that the leash had more slack by the time they were in the playoffs. So Cowher, was different, but had the same success as Tomlin has. Tomlin having Ben, makes no difference, because Chin didn’t think he needed a franchise QB. He DID think he needed a franchise RB and OL, and he routinely did get those players (Dawson, Bettis, Faneca, etc..) to facilitate his preferred offensive philosophy.

Gilbride was a fine OC , well in most of his other stops in the nfl.. Cowher just wasn’t interested in running a modern offense, or Kordell couldn’t… he was a puzzling hire to say the least..

I liked Cowher, but in this NFL, I don’t think his philosophies would have worked… the NFL isn’t about just being physically superior and tough anymore… its all about out scheming the other team. Tomlin is about on par with Cowher in my eyes… he will be a borderline HOF coach who was flawed. The first like 12 years of Noll’s tenure will continue to be the finest coaching the Steelers had… by a wide margin..

 

[ExUSAF]

Of course Dan was still there, he was technically still a face of the organization. But he was 70 years old and Art2 had been taking more and more duties until in 2003 when Dan ceded full day to day operations to him. At which time Dan did what his father did, met with players, coaches, staff, and all the personnel to enjoy the relationships he has made with the people there and assist his son when he asked. When Dan crashed his plane at Latrobe airport during the 2002 Training Camp, it is told that his wife gave him a earful that it’s time to start enjoying themselves with their grandchildren. Bouchette or Pruista even said Patricia had a frying pan in her hand when Dan arrived back from his crash (he was fine) to show how serious she was and for the scare he gave her. That is probably when the decision was put in motion.

As for how Cowher would have done with a franchise QB, this has been argued ad nauseam. Cowher’s never wanted a franchise QB, he had his QB with NOD, but unfortunately he took the money with the NYJ. Had he stayed, I’d contend Cowher probably would have made it back to the AFCC and have a better chance in a second SB. Cowher‘s offensive philosophy was the Perkins/Schottenheimer scheme of ball control rushing attack, with play action passing, win the game with defense. Since NOD left, Cowher had ample opportunities to get better than the Tomczak/Miller/Graham show before having some modicum of success with Kordell, until Cowher’s selection of OCs (Sherman, Gilbride) destroyed any hope with him being more than he was. He did later select Mularkey and then Whiz who used a insurance salesman/former journeyman to turn the offense into an aerial showcase first, then rushing attack to close out games. Then came Ben, who by the way, Cowher was not interested in selecting at first (Stacey Andrews was they player he wanted). It wasn’t until Dan who still sat in the War Room kept directing the discussion between Colbert and Cowher back to Ben, and passing up a QB (like he did with Marino haunted him) at such a high level pick may not be a smart decision for the future. The rest is history. Hell, even when Maddox got hurt and Ben started, Whiz kept him on a short leash - strict orders from Cowher so as to not deviate from the game plan. But he kept making great throws and had superb improv skills, that the leash had more slack by the time they were in the playoffs. So Cowher, was different, but had the same success as Tomlin has. Tomlin having Ben, makes no difference, because Chin didn’t think he needed a franchise QB. He DID think he needed a franchise RB and OL, and he routinely did get those players (Dawson, Bettis, Faneca, etc..) to facilitate his preferred offensive philosophy.

OK, Ike - I'll give you credit for doing your research but the bottom line is that this team has not made the playoffs or, if in the playoffs, has lost in the first round for the last four years. As you already said, when Cowher realized what he had at QB he was willing to change his game plan for his players. Can you honestly say Tomlin adjusts his game plan to match the players he has?

 

[Badcat]

Gilbride was a fine OC , well in most of his other stops in the nfl.. Cowher just wasn’t interested in running a modern offense, or Kordell couldn’t… he was a puzzling hire to say the least..

I liked Cowher, but in this NFL, I don’t think his philosophies would have worked… the NFL isn’t about just being physically superior and tough anymore… its all about out scheming the other team. Tomlin is about on par with Cowher in my eyes… he will be a borderline HOF coach who was flawed. The first like 12 years of Noll’s tenure will continue to be the finest coaching the Steelers had… by a wide margin..

Sorry Mad, Gilbride was absolute *****. He expected the QB and Wide receivers to read the coverages and adjust the route tree accordingly causing a lot of incompletions. Many hear used the term worm burners to account for them. before the Dri Archer thread, there was the Kordell thread where we had "apologists" defending "raisinettes" ability at QB and something with shagging a secretary or something? my mind is a little hazy on that last part.

 

[diver]

Cowher signed Deebo to the 53 first.

I know, Ike. But he was a backup until 2007. They got rid of Joey Porter and inserted Harrison in the lineup. Cowher didn't start him over Clark Haggans. Haggans was a nice player, but nothing like what James Harrison became. So Harrison's biggest success was with Tomlin. He was a new coach. He could have easily went in another direction. And maybe Harrison never gets an opportunity. Anywhere. By some accounts, it wasn't like he was the easiest guy to coach. I really don't think it is too much of a stretch to say Harrison owes what became of his career to Tomlin.

Look, again, I get the frustration with Tomlin and the lack of success. That few minutes of football I watched on Sunday when they got it to 17-14 was just mind numbing, for example. But some of it is just over the top. Tomlin has done some good things.

 

[diver]

It's kinda of like Terry Bradshaw being pissed off at Noll all these years. There is a good chance he never has the same success anywhere else. He probably gets a lot of coaches fired. He owes his career to Chuck Noll.

 

[diver]

OK, Ike - I'll give you credit for doing your research but the bottom line is that this team has not made the playoffs or, if in the playoffs, has lost in the first round for the last four years. As you already said, when Cowher realized what he had at QB he was willing to change his game plan for his players. Can you honestly say Tomlin adjusts his game plan to match the players he has?

What would you call the years from about 2014-2018? He certainly adapted to the players he had. They were a different offense in those years then they were in 2010, for example.

 

[ExUSAF]

What would you call the years from about 2014-2018? He certainly adapted to the players he had. They were a different offense in those years then they were in 2010, for example.

BOTTOM LINE: Do you believe Tomlin develops players and gets the maximum he can from them? Do you believe this team will ever get to much less win a Super Bowl with Tomlin as head coach?

 

[Drink IRON City]

Cowher signed Deebo to the 53 first.

Thanks for the confirm. Cowher knew.................. !


Salute the nation

 

[diver]

BOTTOM LINE: Do you believe Tomlin develops players and gets the maximum he can from them? Do you believe this team will ever get to much less win a Super Bowl with Tomlin as head coach?

To the first part...no. But that isn't what you said. You said he didn't adapt to the players he had. Yes he did. He adapted the offense to suit the talent he had. Why he didn't get them performing at their best at the most important times? I don't know, and he should have to answer for that.
As per the 2nd part, I will never say never. I remember this board after the 2004 loss to the Patriots in the AFCC in Ben's rookie season. Cowher has been here too long. After 14 years or whatever, he will never win the big one. And blah, blah. So no one knows that. It could come together one year because of, or in spite of Tomlin.

 

[diver]

Thanks for the confirm. Cowher knew.................. !


Salute the nation

It's early so I don't know if that was sarcasm. If so, very good.

If not, he didn't start Harrison over Clark Haggans. Now Haggans was solid, no doubt, but he sure as heck wasn't Harrison.

 

[alancac98]

Wait a minute. Who, outside of Pittsburgh, knew anything about James Harrison until Tomlin got to Pittsburgh? The most people knew about him was he was the guy who threw down that fan in Cleveland. It might not be too much of a stretch to say Harrison owes what his career became to Tomlin. I'd say he is being a little ungrateful.

This is also the same guy who most of you wouldn't have pissed on if he was on fire after he signed with the Patriots. I remember the board. You guys are like politicians...you hope most people forget.

Damn, you guys hate Tomlin so much you will grasp on to anything. It's almost pathological.

I hated the hire from day 1, so I don't need to grasp at anything. He has proven my points time and time again since he signed his contract. Besides, I don't hate Tomlin as a person (actually, I think he would be cool to hang out and have a drink with). I just think he is one of the top 5 worst coaches in the NFL (okay, I actually think top 3, but I was being generous).

 

[diver]

I hated the hire from day 1, so I don't need to grasp at anything. He has proven my points time and time again since he signed his contract. Besides, I don't hate Tomlin as a person (actually, I think he would be cool to hang out and have a drink with). I just think he is one of the top 5 worst coaches in the NFL (okay, I actually think top 3, but I was being generous).

Did you hate the hire in Feb of 2009?

 

[Drink IRON City]

It's early so I don't know if that was sarcasm. If so, very good.

If not, he didn't start Harrison over Clark Haggans. Now Haggans was solid, no doubt, but he sure as heck wasn't Harrison.

Harrison was "raw" talent and Cowher took a flyer out on him. James benifitted to a degree for his time on the bench and YES, he had talent infront of him he had to overcome. Could he have been put in maybe a little sooner, hind-sight says hell yes, but no one knows the behind the scenes and his actual ability until it played out.


Salute the nation

 

[diver]

Harrison was "raw" talent and Cowher took a flyer out on him. James benifitted to a degree for his time on the bench and YES, he had talent infront of him he had to overcome. Could he have been put in maybe a little sooner, hind-sight says hell yes, but no one knows the behind the scenes and his actual ability until it played out.


Salute the nation

That's right. And Tomlin was the coach who got that to play out. LeBeau too, of course.

My point is I think Harrison is a little off here. His career may not have been without Tomlin. It is a unescapable fact that his career started to flourish when Tomlin came.

So again, look, I understand the frustration with Tomlin. I feel it too, for the love. But let's not get stupid.

 

[Coach]

Never a losing season. Greatest coach ever.

Removed are Ben and Colbert. Tomlin does not have them to support him anymore. This season will be a losing season.

 

[Ike Kelly]

OK, Ike - I'll give you credit for doing your research but the bottom line is that this team has not made the playoffs or, if in the playoffs, has lost in the first round for the last four years. As you already said, when Cowher realized what he had at QB he was willing to change his game plan for his players. Can you honestly say Tomlin adjusts his game plan to match the players he has?

I’ll say this, Pete Rozelle’s dream of the NFL is at its zenith. There has been Parity in the league for the past couple of decades. With the sole exception of the cheats, for which they have been caught three times, there has only been two teams to win two championships in a decade. NYG and PIT. There are a ton of good coaches out there that haven’t sniffed multiple titles but are pretty damn good. Andy Reid, will get another one probably. there are several others that haven’t won anything but should keep an eye on. Vrabel, McDermott.

Tomlin is a good coach, and he does manage or change his game plans for the players. However, the execution of those game plans are the hindrances we see that drives us crazy. Coaches put their players in the best situations and players have to execute them, plain and simple. Can Tomlin do better, of course. Every coach can. He’s retooled the defense into a pretty good one, and even losing two DL starters last year he still managed to have a squad lead the league in sacks and pressures. I’d say that’s putting your players in good situations. But the players are responsible as well, coaches don’t miss tackles, or assignments.

The offense, well it’s complicated. These last couple years including these first two games, we have an OC who is unimaginative with his route trees.They come from Pop Warner playbooks. (where are the slant routes?!!) He believes using motion and sweeps for misdirection game planning on offense will work against professional NFL level players who are faster and smarter than any level he’s game planned against. Factor in last year Ben without his arm, I was amazed we got as far as we did. Fichtner at first did everything well and Ben welcomed the ability to have input in the planning, something he didn’t have under Haley. Plus the fact he could audible out anytime he wanted to under Randy. But again, defenses figure schemes out and Ben didn’t have his improvise skills as he had before. How, why, Canada came into the picture was lost when Ben’s ligament in his elbow snapped.

The Litmus test for the HC is going to be his QB. Tomlin needs and he will decide who that QB gives the offense its identity. If Mitch can’t settle down and start making better reads and even better throws, Tomlin will pull him. But he knows Najee is going to be the nucleus of the offense and the QB, will have to know how to drive it. The OL is slowly improving, but the passing scheme is so unimaginative I don’t even think Kenny could be successful. I sure don’t want him getting hurt….that for damn sure. A snap decision Tomlin won’t make.

 

[Atlsteelers]

I personally think his comment IF true is ignorant and lazy. We can go back and forth all day on particular players that have and haven’t maximized their potential and for every player we can also dive more into “why” they did or didn’t. This topic isn’t as black and white as people like to think. Too much blame and too much praise are put on the shoulders of a head coach IMO. It takes a team of people from the head coach down to the equipment manager to manage a team. Positional coaches sometimes have more to do with the development of players than anyone else. This also is assuming the player had the right attitude to learn and as well as puts in the time to develop. So many factors go into whether players “develop” into their true potential.

 

[madinsomniac]

Sorry Mad, Gilbride was absolute *****. He expected the QB and Wide receivers to read the coverages and adjust the route tree accordingly causing a lot of incompletions. Many hear used the term worm burners to account for them. before the Dri Archer thread, there was the Kordell thread where we had "apologists" defending "raisinettes" ability at QB and something with shagging a secretary or something? my mind is a little hazy on that last part.

That offense is used league wide on virtually every down these days. Its how offenses work now. Gilbride went on after here to have a really good run at OC in New York… we just couldn’t grasp that he was ahead of his time

 

[FordFairLane]

My biggest gripe with Tomlin isn't even his fault. Just like Canada I really can't blame either. If you offered me the offensive coordinator or head coaching job for the Pittsburgh Steelers I would gladly accept. That does not mean I am qualified for either. Well, neither was Tomlin and neither was Canada. They got jobs they did not deserve from their prior coaching experience. Tomlin had ONE season as a defensive coordinator with Minnesota after being a DB's coach in Tampa. He ranked LAST in the NFL in pass defense. Canada had been inept in college at LSU and Maryland. Neither deserved their job.

 

[diver]

My biggest gripe with Tomlin isn't even his fault. Just like Canada I really can't blame either. If you offered me the offensive coordinator or head coaching job for the Pittsburgh Steelers I would gladly accept. That does not mean I am qualified for either. Well, neither was Tomlin and neither was Canada. They got jobs they did not deserve from their prior coaching experience. Tomlin had ONE season as a defensive coordinator with Minnesota after being a DB's coach in Tampa. He ranked LAST in the NFL in pass defense. Canada had been inept in college at LSU and Maryland. Neither deserved their job.

Again, were you saying that in Feb 2009?