Deflate-gate......God I hate the Pats!!!!

[deljzc]

i get the scientific approach

but one on one with their history of cheating are you believing that over the probability that they did in fact cheat?

I'm debating whether it's cheating at all to pump up the ball using warm air before turning the balls over to the officials for inspection. I'm not sure it is per the letter of the law. And considering all the other ways the ball can be tampered with to make it per the QB's specifications, I'm not sure the rule has ever been enforced or even cared about.

What IS cheating is if the ball boys/equipment men used a device to let out air during the game. It is also illegal to warm up game balls, but that happens ALL THE TIME and the referees sometimes have to warn equipment guys when it gets too obvious (that happened in a Minnesota game).

I think every equipment guy knows Tom Brady likes an underinflated ball, ESPECIALLY in rainy, cold weather. It's a high school level idea to say: it we use hot air to inflate the footballs before giving them to the referees, the pressure will go down to what Tom likes as we go through the game. n They can also then hide behind the rule that they will never TAMPER with the ball after the initial inspection.

The only thing that can happen is if during the game the referees think a ball is too underinflated to use (maybe they think it has a leak) and the ball is removed from the game. Not sure I am 100% sure this is "cheating" or just trying to make the ball what Tom Brady likes in as legal a way as possible.

 

[Punxsutawney]

If they inflated the balls with the intent of them being below regulation during the game, it's a violation.

They will not be able hide behind those technicalities, del, as the league will take all that into account.

 

[Vader]

I have 3 issues with your theory delijzc:

1. If that were the case then why didn't they just come out and say so? If it is perfectly legal and the NFL can't do anything about it why not just say so and get it over with? Why allow this to drag on and make your org. take all the hits during the SB run up?

2. Why take the punishment for something you didn't do? The NFL is going to punish them because there is no way 11 of 12 balls just deflated themselves for the pats** and not the Colts. Wouldn't they just come forward and stop all this if what they did isn't cheating?

3. 150+ degree air in a football would make it soft. Wouldn't the refs checking the ball feel the warmth? If you say they had time to cool off then won't that make them deflated? Anybody that's played football has felt a "hot" ball when it has been out in the sun and that is nowhere near 150+ degrees. Having that much heat inside the ball would surely make it soft and extremely warm on the outside.

 

[deljzc]

I have 3 issues with your theory delijzc:

1. If that were the case then why didn't they just come out and say so? If it is perfectly legal and the NFL can't do anything about it why not just say so and get it over with? Why allow this to drag on and make your org. take all the hits during the SB run up?

2. Why take the punishment for something you didn't do? The NFL is going to punish them because there is no way 11 of 12 balls just deflated themselves for the pats** and not the Colts. Wouldn't they just come forward and stop all this if what they did isn't cheating?

3. 150+ degree air in a football would make it soft. Wouldn't the refs checking the ball feel the warmth? If you say they had time to cool off then won't that make them deflated? Anybody that's played football has felt a "hot" ball when it has been out in the sun and that is nowhere near 150+ degrees. Having that much heat inside the ball would surely make it soft and extremely warm on the outside.

Not sure about that but it's worth an experiment. My coworker was going to bring in an NFL regulation ball with a high-tech pressure gage and we were going to experiment on how "different" a ball feels being underinflated by a couple psi.

HOW the equipment staff decided to legally get the balls to feel/be underinflated during a game might not be in the realm of what Belichick and Brady knew so they could hide behind "ignorance". If they knew and asked the equipment staff: "Did you tamper with the balls during the game?" and the answer was (truthfully), "No." then they can hind behind that too.

Not sure if it benefits them one way or another to say anything.

I think the leather would insulate the ball from being "too hot" to touch. Your analogy that when a ball sits out in the sun is a good one because in that case the OUTSIDE of the ball is very hot, but the inside air is not (do you notice that big a pressure difference?). Obviously if you let a ball sit outside in the sun for 4-5 hours, the air inside the ball would eventually rise, but 20 minutes in the sun would greatly effect the outside, but not the inside yet.

Again, you would have to test the theory. Take a football, deflate it, take it into a sauna, inflate it using "sauna air" then wait about 5 minutes and hand it to someone. Does it feel abnormally warm? What is the psi reading? What is the psi reading 2 hours later? Believe me, if this is my JOB and I had countless summer days of boring training camp handling the same dirty equipment I might find some experiments like this to keep my mind interested.

What enlightened me to this was the article about Eli Manning's equipment guys. I doubt Eli knew the exact method of making a football feel the way Eli liked it, but the equipment guys had it down to a science. Even down to the length of time they would rub the footballs or water log them or buff them or scratch them up.

I think the equipment guys had a way to make Brady happy with the footballs. Whether that way was illegal or not is still being investigated. Whether Tom Brady or Bill Belichick know the exact methods used by the training staff to get that "perfect ball" in bad weather for Brady is doubtful. Likely the only directive was "make sure it's not against the rules".

I doubt we'll ever know the intricate details of this now. Everyone's best interest is just shut up and act dumb and say I didn't doctor the ball during the game. That's really the only rule that applies here.

 

[SteelerFan448]

Patriots have a press conference at 2:30 pm today and it will be on NFLN if anyone is interested.

 

[deljzc]

If they inflated the balls with the intent of them being below regulation during the game, it's a violation.

They will not be able hide behind those technicalities, del, as the league will take all that into account.

I'm not sure it is a violation.

The balls in the Green Bay vs. Giants playoff game in -15 degree wind chill were not 12.5 psi. It's a scientific impossibility. Not unless they were illegally warming up the balls during the game. Did those teams break the rules? Why or why not? Should the equipment staff purposely OVER inflate the balls in a 70 degree room knowing the temperature outside is going to reduce the pressure a couple psi? Should the referees have demanded it?

Again, pressure means NOTHING without a temperature requirement. Nothing. It's like saying I weight 150 lbs but not telling you what planet I am on or what the gravitational constant is.

On a side note, I heard Jon Clayton try to talk science and he was an idiot. He somehow thinks a ball underinflated 2 "pounds" is 2 pounds lighter and thus it was less wear and tear on Brady's shoulder. Just for the record a ball underinflated does not WEIGH any less than a ball overinflated. The air inside doesn't really weigh all that much. So Jon Clayton should stick to being an journalist major and not a scientist.

 

[Stryker]

I like your points Del.

I can see it from a perspective of 'not tampering' if nothing was done to the ball during the game, but the rule is clear. The ball can not be below 12.5lbs at any time during the game. Not just during the testing phase pregame.

Not only were their balls low, but 11/12 were 2lbs down. One ball was not low at all. How would this be possible? Perhaps they have a test ball on the sidelines ready to turn over to the refs if their balls are in question? Instead, the refs did the smart thing and tested all of them at halftime. Weather being the constant between both teams during that game, clearly showed that the Pats were in violation. It doesn't matter if they didn't tamper with the balls on the sideline during the game. Even if they filled the balls with hot air, they are in violation because the balls ended up being 2lbs down.

Interesting also that the rule change happened for the 2007 season that allows the QBs to control their own footballs to get them the way they like before a game. Perhaps it's time to have a non biased ball crew that can fix the balls for QBs within the rules as they are written? It may be the only fair way to assess game balls moving forward.

 

[Vader]

Not sure about that but it's worth an experiment. My coworker was going to bring in an NFL regulation ball with a high-tech pressure gage and we were going to experiment on how "different" a ball feels being underinflated by a couple psi.

HOW the equipment staff decided to legally get the balls to feel/be underinflated during a game might not be in the realm of what Belichick and Brady knew so they could hide behind "ignorance". If they knew and asked the equipment staff: "Did you tamper with the balls during the game?" and the answer was (truthfully), "No." then they can hind behind that too.

Not sure if it benefits them one way or another to say anything.

I think the leather would insulate the ball from being "too hot" to touch. Your analogy that when a ball sits out in the sun is a good one because in that case the OUTSIDE of the ball is very hot, but the inside air is not (do you notice that big a pressure difference?). Obviously if you let a ball sit outside in the sun for 4-5 hours, the air inside the ball would eventually rise, but 20 minutes in the sun would greatly effect the outside, but not the inside yet.

Again, you would have to test the theory. Take a football, deflate it, take it into a sauna, inflate it using "sauna air" then wait about 5 minutes and hand it to someone. Does it feel abnormally warm? What is the psi reading? What is the psi reading 2 hours later? Believe me, if this is my JOB and I had countless summer days of boring training camp handling the same dirty equipment I might find some experiments like this to keep my mind interested.

They were asked if they tampered with the ball. Not if they tampered with them during the game. It makes no difference when the tampering occurred. If you tamper with a ball even if it is 6 days before the game then use those balls it should be a violation. That's what the rule is for.

As you know leaving a football outside for awhile is different than pumping heated air into a small space. I never said "too hot" to touch. The refs should be able to feel the difference between a stone cold football and one that has 150+ degree air inside of it. I'm sure the leather would insulate it some but it isn't going to keep the entire sphere cool on the outside. The heat would have to penetrate it somewhat. Remember they have to be recently made hot because if not they are going to deflate.

I just don't see this as being a plausible explanation for what happened. Like I said, they are going to be punished for cheating. You're theory is that they did this so they could act dumb and they didn't doctor the balls during the game. Did they not think they'd be asked if they doctored the balls "before" the game? Surely they aren't that stupid. If they are going to lie about not doing before the game why would they be worried about lying about it during the game? It makes no sense to me.

 

[FAB802]

They cheat, it's all they know.

 

[Steelr4evr]

The Pats*** are frauds. I will give them **** until the end of time about it too. I'm still pissed at those pricks for ******* up my super bowl week in Jacksonville.

 

[Lunar]

These aren't the droids you're looking for. Move along, move along.

 

[Steel G]

The fact that Billy Goat felt a need to have another presser about this tells me that he's pretty damn worried about something. Two days ago, he didn't know nothing about anything and didn't seem to give a damn about finding out. Now, he's suddenly an air pressure whiz and can do his own investigation on it. And the league will most likely fall on the sword for him to try and save face and protect the shield. What a crock of crap. I'm tired of him and his stupid lying face and that organization. The league and CBS can try and force them down our throats all they want, but I'm not buying anymore. To hell with this "super bowl". And that goes for next year even when they play the Steelers, I will be tuning out.

 

[Doc]

http://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/blog/

I found this interesting. And one could read into and say it suggests that their balls have been flat for a long long time..

 

[Steelr4evr]

Oh the pats*** will be studied like bacteria under the microscope now.

 

[Drink IRON City]

The biger the microscope, the better. Maybe some of this other BS will come out. Squeeze hard enough and even tommy boys butt will pucker!!!




Salute the nation

 

[slashsteel]

The biger the microscope, the better. Maybe some of this other BS will come out. Squeeze hard enough and even tommy boys butt will pucker!!!




Salute the nation

no matter what happens moving forward the amount of coaches /players /fans who think the Pats cheat has increased significantly.

I wonder how close the NFL owners will be watching Goodell through this one.

 

[Ron Burgundy]

no matter what happens moving forward the amount of coaches /players /fans who think the Pats cheat has increased significantly.

I wonder how close the NFL owners will be watching Goodell through this one.

The Steelers have already been bought off with the new Art Rooney Award.

 

[deljzc]

I like your points Del.

I can see it from a perspective of 'not tampering' if nothing was done to the ball during the game, but the rule is clear. The ball can not be below 12.5lbs at any time during the game. Not just during the testing phase pregame.

Not only were their balls low, but 11/12 were 2lbs down. One ball was not low at all. How would this be possible? Perhaps they have a test ball on the sidelines ready to turn over to the refs if their balls are in question? Instead, the refs did the smart thing and tested all of them at halftime. Weather being the constant between both teams during that game, clearly showed that the Pats were in violation. It doesn't matter if they didn't tamper with the balls on the sideline during the game. Even if they filled the balls with hot air, they are in violation because the balls ended up being 2lbs down.

Interesting also that the rule change happened for the 2007 season that allows the QBs to control their own footballs to get them the way they like before a game. Perhaps it's time to have a non biased ball crew that can fix the balls for QBs within the rules as they are written? It may be the only fair way to assess game balls moving forward.

The rule is not clear the ball can "never fall below 12.5 psi" during a game. It doesn't say that. It doesn't say for the referees or teams to "maintain pressure" during a game or constantly check the pressure. In fact it implicitly rules that after that initial inspection, you can't alter the balls at all except for maybe wiping them down with towels and cleaning them or keeping them dry. No warmers. No change in pressure. No roughing them up. Nothing.

Science says the balls played with in the Giants - Packers game when it was minus temperature COULD NOT BE 12.5 psi. Not unless they were allowed to cool and then re-inflated. Were those teams illegal? Did they do something wrong?

And the idea game balls can't be tampered with before the initial inspection is ludicrous. Of course they are tampered with. Every equipment staff and every quarterback tamper with the ball to their liking. And it's all within the rules. The only "check" is really that pre-game check of the balls where I think they are weighed and checked for pressure and just visually inspected briefly to make sure they are the proper make, model, etc.

After that it is very subjective. If a ball gets damaged or scratched or too deflated it can be removed from a game by the referee or even the equipment staff that just stops using that specific ball during it's "rotation". The quarterback can even say to the staff, I don't like that ball now, something happened to it and the equipment staff won't use it again in the game (they will just use the other 11 balls).

This whole thing is kind of silly to me now.

1. Pressure doesn't mean anything unless you specify temperature.

2. Game balls are doctored up to individual QB's standards all the time and is part of the accepted rules. Footballs are not "uniform" from team to team so by definition the referees have allowed variations.

3. The game balls only really get inspected once before the game and after that the "unwritten" rules (by action) were the refs gave incredible leeway to ball pressure during games as the temperature falls. No MO was established and no real care seemed to be from the league to maintain pressure in footballs. Only by "feel" was anything really ever done.

4. The rule states clearly you can not tamper with the ball or heat the ball up during the game.

 

[Ron Burgundy]

I'm anal about vehicle maintenance. I live in western PA where the temperature can easily swing 30* in a day. Granted, car tires run at a higher psi than footballs and carry a larger volume of air, but I've only seen the psi fluctuate about 2 lb at most. I've checked because I worry about that stuff. Just sayin' I find it hard to believe that any normal temperature difference would cause a 16% difference in the 13 lb psi of a football.

 

[deljzc]

You non-science guys need to just shut up:

http://www.headsmartlabs.com/

Test done with NEW footballs (which should hold pressure better), with just a 20 degree drop in temperature and wetness made the after pressure in the footballs drop between 1.75 and 1.95 psi alone. NO CHEATING NECESSARY

 

[Ron Burgundy]

You non-science guys need to just shut up:

http://www.headsmartlabs.com/

Test done with NEW footballs (which should hold pressure better), with just a 20 degree drop in temperature and wetness made the after pressure in the footballs drop between 1.75 and 1.95 psi alone. NO CHEATING NECESSARY

That's fine. I freely admit I was not a physics major. But how is it that the Colts' balls were still in the specified range of pressure but the Pats** were not?

 

[FAB802]

That's fine. I freely admit I was not a physics major. But how is it that the Colts' balls were still in the specified range of pressure but the Pats** were not?

Surely it's just a coincidence. It's not like those fellas would ever cheat, or break the rules.

 

[Confluence]

You non-science guys need to just shut up:

http://www.headsmartlabs.com/

Test done with NEW footballs (which should hold pressure better), with just a 20 degree drop in temperature and wetness made the after pressure in the footballs drop between 1.75 and 1.95 psi alone. NO CHEATING NECESSARY

That's fine. I freely admit I was not a physics major. But how is it that the Colts' balls were still in the specified range of pressure but the Pats** were not?

While it is nice to cite science, it is also good to have economics guys who are always ready with the "on the other hand", because most science folks forget, in the moment, to add the perspective of the frame of reference, as was clearly demonstrated here.

 

[Ron Burgundy]

While it is nice to cite science, it is also good to have economics guys who are always ready with the "on the other hand", because most science folks forget, in the moment, to add the perspective of the frame of reference, as was clearly demonstrated here.

Logic can be a mother.
I had a minor in philosophy just for fun because I liked it.

 

[Stryker]

The rule is not clear the ball can "never fall below 12.5 psi" during a game. It doesn't say that. It doesn't say for the referees or teams to "maintain pressure" during a game or constantly check the pressure. In fact it implicitly rules that after that initial inspection, you can't alter the balls at all except for maybe wiping them down with towels and cleaning them or keeping them dry. No warmers. No change in pressure. No roughing them up. Nothing.

Science says the balls played with in the Giants - Packers game when it was minus temperature COULD NOT BE 12.5 psi. Not unless they were allowed to cool and then re-inflated. Were those teams illegal? Did they do something wrong?

And the idea game balls can't be tampered with before the initial inspection is ludicrous. Of course they are tampered with. Every equipment staff and every quarterback tamper with the ball to their liking. And it's all within the rules. The only "check" is really that pre-game check of the balls where I think they are weighed and checked for pressure and just visually inspected briefly to make sure they are the proper make, model, etc.

After that it is very subjective. If a ball gets damaged or scratched or too deflated it can be removed from a game by the referee or even the equipment staff that just stops using that specific ball during it's "rotation". The quarterback can even say to the staff, I don't like that ball now, something happened to it and the equipment staff won't use it again in the game (they will just use the other 11 balls).

This whole thing is kind of silly to me now.

1. Pressure doesn't mean anything unless you specify temperature.

2. Game balls are doctored up to individual QB's standards all the time and is part of the accepted rules. Footballs are not "uniform" from team to team so by definition the referees have allowed variations.

3. The game balls only really get inspected once before the game and after that the "unwritten" rules (by action) were the refs gave incredible leeway to ball pressure during games as the temperature falls. No MO was established and no real care seemed to be from the league to maintain pressure in footballs. Only by "feel" was anything really ever done.

4. The rule states clearly you can not tamper with the ball or heat the ball up during the game.

Then why bother to test the balls at all when there is a descrepancy? So the referees illegally retested these balls at halftime? Is that what you're trying to say, because I can't buy that.

You want to point to sub freezing games, and if all things are equal, all 24 balls (12 on each side during the GB game) would be consistent to each other during a retest.

During the Pats/Colts game 11 of the 24 balls were out of realm of being legal. All 11 happened to be on the Pats sideline. If temperature and wetness to the ball are the only variables, then they should be consistent between both teams sets of balls. So why the inconsistency? And further more, why was one of the Pat's balls within spec when tested at halftime? That's the real head scratcher. Under the scientific method, testing pressure and it's effect with weather conditions and temperature, if all 12 balls were 2lbs down, it would lend more credence to the Pat's story of 'not understanding' that pressure drops as the temperature drops. Instead, they have a white whale swimming with their other 11 deflated school of fish.

How can one ball be to spec when the other 11 aren't if all were inflated in the same conditions? Perhaps they weren't inflated in the same conditions, or more specifically, the one wasn't. This is what I find interesting about this situation. It would look to me that they have a 'dummy' ball on the sideline, filled to spec, so the refs can check it if they need to. Instead, the refs did the right thing and tested all of the balls.

Perhaps in the future, it would be easier to keep the pressure consistent if the balls are inflated on the field after the balls have cooled to match the ambient air temperature. In this situation the balls' pressure would not fluctuate much, aside from the temperature warming or cooling during the game, which shouldn't be more than a couple degrees. That may be the most consistent way to fill footballs in the future.