Ahhh, subjectivity versus fact.
Not as a defense to Tomlin, but factually, his record was better than Flore's record this year.
Flores suing the NFL, alleges racism in coaching hiring practices.
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Not as a defense to Tomlin, but factually, his record was better than Flore's record this year.
Ohh there you are race baiter,,!
Oh stfu buttplug bob
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the rooney rule does exactly that, provides a chance. I think the problem is that there are people who want a quota. They want X number of black, and let's be real, nobody counts Saleh or Rivera, they mean BLACK when they talk about minority hires.
For people who think that way they see the rooney rule as a failure.
You are saying that the race card won't be thrown but it just was. There's no merit to Flores actual claim. I thought he did a good job in Miami but now the more i'm reading he sounds like he acted like a jackass. Now he's essentially saying that if he doesn't get hired, it's racist. He's suing Denver and they actually had a black head coach a few years ago, Vance Joseph.
I personally think the rooney rule is a pretty good compromise. I do think that teams make a mistake by focusing on 1 guy and not interviewing enough. I mean white and minority interviews. It's such an important position and these teams interview fewer guys than the local starbucks does for an open barista position.
I think the problem is people who think rooney rule means there's a quota.
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Several posts back you said:
Just because teams have to provide an opportunity for 2 minority candidates DOES NOT mean they HAVE TO hire them. Simple.
But in the above post you are alluding that these minority players, assistants, staff, etc. are not getting the opportunity to be a HC due to their race. What happened to the "opportunity" being good enough?
Just because a minority candidate played the sport or served in an assistant capacity, does that make them qualified to be a good HC? Are you able to say how well these minority candidates interviewed? Are you able to compare/contrast the minority candidate's resume with the resume of the candidate who did get the job? Are you able to say how the minority candidate's philosophies lined up with the ownership's? My hunch is you probably can't; however; it didn't stop you from suggesting that "racism" could be a contributing factor (if not the root cause) as to why more minority candidates aren't getting the job.
Several posts back you also stated
he feels that 'IF' the minority isn't hired---this is going to automatically start minorities to 'throw the race card because I wasn't selected'. I'm calling BULLCHYT.
You can certainly call "BULLCHYT", but that doesn't negate the fact that you just proved my point.
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I always hear the tired point that the league is 80% black so there should be way more black coaches. I think the fact there are so many black players is actually part of the reason there are fewer coaches.
Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.
It's true. So if you are a white guy who loves the game, your playing career may be done in high school, so you start getting into coaching. A guy like Sean McVay could be 32 and already have 10 years of coaching on his resume compared to a guy like Leftwich who didn't even start his coaching career until about that time. That is part of it.
The other reason there's more white coaches is that there's still way more white people in this country. It really is that simple.
Another thing people don't realize is that coaching can be a really ****** job. People see the high salaries of top coaches but don;t realize that guys on the bottom rung get paid ****. You may not get paid at all as a grad assistant at a college which is how many start their coaching career. Then you have to move every couple years for jobs.
A lot of former players may literally have better things to do with their time than staring a coaching career. They may be much better off being an investor or starting a business than getting into coaching and working long hours for low starting pay.
One other major factor is star players often make ****** coaches. They had tons of natural ability so maybe they never mastered the little things and can't teach what came to them naturally.
You see this in TV as well. Lots of star players have been horrible on TV. Joe Montana was terrible. Emmitt Smith was hilariously bad.
Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.
It's true. So if you are a white guy who loves the game, your playing career may be done in high school, so you start getting into coaching. A guy like Sean McVay could be 32 and already have 10 years of coaching on his resume compared to a guy like Leftwich who didn't even start his coaching career until about that time. That is part of it.
The other reason there's more white coaches is that there's still way more white people in this country. It really is that simple.
Another thing people don't realize is that coaching can be a really ****** job. People see the high salaries of top coaches but don;t realize that guys on the bottom rung get paid ****. You may not get paid at all as a grad assistant at a college which is how many start their coaching career. Then you have to move every couple years for jobs.
A lot of former players may literally have better things to do with their time than staring a coaching career. They may be much better off being an investor or starting a business than getting into coaching and working long hours for low starting pay.
One other major factor is star players often make ****** coaches. They had tons of natural ability so maybe they never mastered the little things and can't teach what came to them naturally.
You see this in TV as well. Lots of star players have been horrible on TV. Joe Montana was terrible. Emmitt Smith was hilariously bad.
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As far as the Giants,. Daboll was a good hire. If you look at the Giants, their most important thing is getting Daniel Jones and the offense going. Daboll did a great job with Josh Allen. Jones is not as talented but he is a similar player. Jones can run. He has had his moments where he's looked good. With this draft being weak at QB, it's smart to get a coach to try to jump start Jones.
After this year, they should know about Jones. And if he's not the guy, they have Daboll to work with the new rookie they draft to replace him.
After this year, they should know about Jones. And if he's not the guy, they have Daboll to work with the new rookie they draft to replace him.
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To add to Tape’s commentary, being a coach takes a significant more time in your life than being a player. Coaches have 60-70 hour weeks sometimes. Former players have stated on hundreds of occasions that their interest in coaching is nil becaise of the time it removes you from your family.
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Here's the career of Nick Saban
1973–1974 Kent State (Grad Assistant)
1975–1976 Kent State (LB)
1977 Syracuse (OLB)
1978–1979 West Virginia (DB)
1980–1981 Ohio State (DB)
1982 Navy (DB)
1983–1987 Michigan State (DC/DB)
1988–1989 Houston Oilers (DB)
1990 Toledo Head Coach
1991–1994 Cleveland Browns (DC)
1995–1999 Michigan State HC
2000–2004 LSU HC
2005–2006 Miami Dolphins HC
2007–present Alabama HC
It took him 16 year to get his first head coaching job at Toledo. He lived in 8 different places in those first 16 years and probably barely made any money. Dragging your family from place to place. Lot's of guys tap out. Or more likely, their family taps out on the coaching life.
Imagine if you were a former player and have a few million in the bank. How quick are you to sign up for that life?
It's true that if you are a former player, you probably get to skip the first few rungs on the ladder but imagine if you are an owner or GM and the year is 1995. You can hire a former player who has maybe 6 years of coaching on his record or you can hire Nick Saban, a guy most people hadn't heard of before, but he has 22 years of coaching and he's bee under multiple systems under multiple great coaches like Dick McPhearson at Syracuse, Nehlan at WVU. George Perles at Mich State, and Belichick at the Browns.
The media then says Who is this Saban guy? They should have hired Insert Former Player Here
1973–1974 Kent State (Grad Assistant)
1975–1976 Kent State (LB)
1977 Syracuse (OLB)
1978–1979 West Virginia (DB)
1980–1981 Ohio State (DB)
1982 Navy (DB)
1983–1987 Michigan State (DC/DB)
1988–1989 Houston Oilers (DB)
1990 Toledo Head Coach
1991–1994 Cleveland Browns (DC)
1995–1999 Michigan State HC
2000–2004 LSU HC
2005–2006 Miami Dolphins HC
2007–present Alabama HC
It took him 16 year to get his first head coaching job at Toledo. He lived in 8 different places in those first 16 years and probably barely made any money. Dragging your family from place to place. Lot's of guys tap out. Or more likely, their family taps out on the coaching life.
Imagine if you were a former player and have a few million in the bank. How quick are you to sign up for that life?
It's true that if you are a former player, you probably get to skip the first few rungs on the ladder but imagine if you are an owner or GM and the year is 1995. You can hire a former player who has maybe 6 years of coaching on his record or you can hire Nick Saban, a guy most people hadn't heard of before, but he has 22 years of coaching and he's bee under multiple systems under multiple great coaches like Dick McPhearson at Syracuse, Nehlan at WVU. George Perles at Mich State, and Belichick at the Browns.
The media then says Who is this Saban guy? They should have hired Insert Former Player Here
These tapes were destroyed as nothing was on them - RG
I read his claims last night and laughed. I mean did I miss something? I know he was allegedly offered $100,000 to lose games but that has nothing to do with race. He very well may have been interviewed due to the Rooney rule but that isn't racism unless you are calling the Rooney rule racist itself for having a requirement to interview people of a certain race (the definition of racism). You should be interviewing and hiring based solely on qualifications. The color of someone's skin shouldn't even factor into it. So, where is the racism he is claiming? Maybe I missed it but it seems to me, he and/or his attorney are just trying for a money grab. And, now that he is pulling this stunt, he will never get a head coaching job in the NFL again. I know, if I'm an owner, I would never hire him.
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Berm, I've always have and will continue to have the respect for you as I have for many others, regardless of citizenship or color.
Thank you for being a member of this board. It takes all of us to be deversified which is what makes this board so dang good, even coach has his input and place.
STEELERNATION.COM it's where it's happeniN
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BUT wait !!! Some here was claiming how much better a TIE was when it came to deciphering who has a better record for play off implications. The "W" colum is what counts in most instances.
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**This report doesn't paint Flores in a very flattering light. It sounds like his over-inflated ego and unwillingness to work cooperatively lead to his downfall, not racism.
Fallout from Brian Flores’ Dolphins dismissal in the wake of an NFL Network report that he will interview for the Chicago Bears head coaching job: ▪ Flores already was essentially running the Dolphins building, according to a source in direct contact with Dolphins management. But he wanted even more control, the source said. He wanted the authority formalized, to eliminate the contract annoyance of general manager Chris Grier having final say on the draft and free agency.
He wanted more power in everything, final say on virtually everything. He wanted more people to report to him. He already had full authority to pick a coaching staff and planned to make more changes, beginning with the offensive staff. At least one of the offensive coordinators was expecting to be dismissed, if not both.
What’s strange about this is that Grier — who likes to avoid conflict — basically gave Flores everything he wanted. There wasn’t a single player on the roster that Flores didn’t sign off on. And yet Grier’s deference still wasn’t enough to appease Flores or sooth tensions between the two. As one Dolphins person said, people need to stop blaming Grier entirely for the personnel moves that didn’t work out the past three years and blame them both equally. And both deserve credit for the ones that worked out. ▪ There were plenty of examples of Flores demanding his way on things that weren’t necessarily under his domain. He lobbied for the dismissal of Matt Taylor, the team’s top football media relations person, last spring, over the objections of the two executives who wanted to keep him, including team president Tom Garfinkel. Flores got his way, as he usually did.
▪ There were plenty of players who liked and admired Flores, and let’s be clear about that. But his arrogance and bristling personality rubbed some the wrong way. A close associate of multiple young Dolphins said the players complained to him that “he doesn’t understand dealing with men. He’s not approachable.” When Flores saw one young player in recent months, he told him: “Don’t come to my office talking about playing time.” The player had no such intentions. But multiple sources said he treated players different ways; a veteran such as Jason McCourty wouldn’t be treated with that same heavy hand. “He was stern with some but joked around with some guys,” the source said. “It was hard to read him.” ▪ One veteran complained that Flores would pass him in the halls and never say hello, never even acknowledge his presence. He asked his friend why he wanted to work in a place like this.
Some players were puzzled by Flores’ livid reaction to media stories. When a trainer for a Dolphins player who had sustained an injury tweeted an update on the players’ injury after the 2020 season, the agent was immediately called and threatened with unspecified consequences if he didn’t delete the tweet. Why was this a big deal, when the season was over? Was there a competitive advantage lost? Other players were threatened with consequences if they revealed their injury status to reporters. When a story leaked about a potential offensive line change, Flores stormed into the meeting room and demanded to know who leaked it. Nobody said a word. But that was his primary concern that morning. ▪ As for the relationship with quarterback Tua Tagovailoa, a source confirmed that angry words were exchanged during the Tennessee game, as two media outlets have reported. Flores was furious with how Tagovailoa was playing and let him know. Tagovailoa resented Flores’ tone and his way of talking to people.
But a very close associate of Tagovailoa said their working relationship was generally fine and that Tagovailoa doesn’t dislike Flores, joking that their dynamics were good enough for Tagovailoa to send him a Christmas card. That source said the two men could have continued working together and that the Tennessee incident wasn’t uncommon in the NFL during the heat of a poor performance. ▪ I asked someone who has worked with both Grier and Flores why Grier keeps surviving but the coaches (Adam Gase, Flores) take the fall. That source said Grier has aligned himself with Garfinkel — who has Ross’ ear — and Grier’s ability to get along with people and be a good soldier carries weight with owner Stephen Ross. Grier also is respectful to the owner. An unidentified Dolphins person leaked to a local columnist after Flores’ dismissal that Flores disrespected Ross, but I have no corroboration of that. A similar story was planted after Gase’s firing, suggesting that Gase blew off Ross. That’s important to Ross — perhaps more important than Grier’s (and Flores’) personnel mistakes during the past three years.
Ross believes that Grier has upgraded the roster significantly and is fine with overlooking the mistakes, including the selection of Charles Harris over T.J. Watt, Noah Igbinoghene over a running back and the Tagovailoa/Justin Herbert decision. Again, Flores was involved the Igbinoghene and Tagovailoa decisions and on board with both. But it’s easier for Ross to keep the long-term employee with the pleasant demeanor — the one who treats him royally — than the only that’s perceived as difficult to work with. ▪ What about a CBS report that Flores preferred Herbert over Tagovailoa? Flores has told NFL people he’s a “height, weight, speed guy,” which led to speculation that he preferred Herbert. But a league source insisted both Grier and Flores were on board with drafting Tagovailoa, who was Ross’ preference. Ross didn’t order them to pick Tagovailoa, however.
Like many from the Bill Belichick coaching tree, Flores prioritized secrecy. He called me fuming one day in 2020 when I reported — 20 hours before game time — about the likelihood of an offensive lineman entering the following day’s game against Arizona in the second quarter. He was livid and insisted that nugget of information could help the Cardinals strategically, though I didn’t understand why because the Cardinals knew that lineman might play. That said, he was always respectful and civil with the media. ▪ The above anecdotes might suggest that Flores’ dismissal was justified.
Flores made mistakes in staff hires (especially with his 2021 offensive coordinators and offensive line coach) and he has only himself to blame for not fostering a better relationship with Grier.
Read more at: https://www.miamiherald.com/sports/...y-jackson/article256841207.html#storylink=cpy
Behind-the-scenes fallout, factors in wake of the Flores dismissal
Fallout from Brian Flores’ Dolphins dismissal in the wake of an NFL Network report that he will interview for the Chicago Bears head coaching job: ▪ Flores already was essentially running the Dolphins building, according to a source in direct contact with Dolphins management. But he wanted even more control, the source said. He wanted the authority formalized, to eliminate the contract annoyance of general manager Chris Grier having final say on the draft and free agency.
He wanted more power in everything, final say on virtually everything. He wanted more people to report to him. He already had full authority to pick a coaching staff and planned to make more changes, beginning with the offensive staff. At least one of the offensive coordinators was expecting to be dismissed, if not both.
What’s strange about this is that Grier — who likes to avoid conflict — basically gave Flores everything he wanted. There wasn’t a single player on the roster that Flores didn’t sign off on. And yet Grier’s deference still wasn’t enough to appease Flores or sooth tensions between the two. As one Dolphins person said, people need to stop blaming Grier entirely for the personnel moves that didn’t work out the past three years and blame them both equally. And both deserve credit for the ones that worked out. ▪ There were plenty of examples of Flores demanding his way on things that weren’t necessarily under his domain. He lobbied for the dismissal of Matt Taylor, the team’s top football media relations person, last spring, over the objections of the two executives who wanted to keep him, including team president Tom Garfinkel. Flores got his way, as he usually did.
▪ There were plenty of players who liked and admired Flores, and let’s be clear about that. But his arrogance and bristling personality rubbed some the wrong way. A close associate of multiple young Dolphins said the players complained to him that “he doesn’t understand dealing with men. He’s not approachable.” When Flores saw one young player in recent months, he told him: “Don’t come to my office talking about playing time.” The player had no such intentions. But multiple sources said he treated players different ways; a veteran such as Jason McCourty wouldn’t be treated with that same heavy hand. “He was stern with some but joked around with some guys,” the source said. “It was hard to read him.” ▪ One veteran complained that Flores would pass him in the halls and never say hello, never even acknowledge his presence. He asked his friend why he wanted to work in a place like this.
Some players were puzzled by Flores’ livid reaction to media stories. When a trainer for a Dolphins player who had sustained an injury tweeted an update on the players’ injury after the 2020 season, the agent was immediately called and threatened with unspecified consequences if he didn’t delete the tweet. Why was this a big deal, when the season was over? Was there a competitive advantage lost? Other players were threatened with consequences if they revealed their injury status to reporters. When a story leaked about a potential offensive line change, Flores stormed into the meeting room and demanded to know who leaked it. Nobody said a word. But that was his primary concern that morning. ▪ As for the relationship with quarterback Tua Tagovailoa, a source confirmed that angry words were exchanged during the Tennessee game, as two media outlets have reported. Flores was furious with how Tagovailoa was playing and let him know. Tagovailoa resented Flores’ tone and his way of talking to people.
But a very close associate of Tagovailoa said their working relationship was generally fine and that Tagovailoa doesn’t dislike Flores, joking that their dynamics were good enough for Tagovailoa to send him a Christmas card. That source said the two men could have continued working together and that the Tennessee incident wasn’t uncommon in the NFL during the heat of a poor performance. ▪ I asked someone who has worked with both Grier and Flores why Grier keeps surviving but the coaches (Adam Gase, Flores) take the fall. That source said Grier has aligned himself with Garfinkel — who has Ross’ ear — and Grier’s ability to get along with people and be a good soldier carries weight with owner Stephen Ross. Grier also is respectful to the owner. An unidentified Dolphins person leaked to a local columnist after Flores’ dismissal that Flores disrespected Ross, but I have no corroboration of that. A similar story was planted after Gase’s firing, suggesting that Gase blew off Ross. That’s important to Ross — perhaps more important than Grier’s (and Flores’) personnel mistakes during the past three years.
Ross believes that Grier has upgraded the roster significantly and is fine with overlooking the mistakes, including the selection of Charles Harris over T.J. Watt, Noah Igbinoghene over a running back and the Tagovailoa/Justin Herbert decision. Again, Flores was involved the Igbinoghene and Tagovailoa decisions and on board with both. But it’s easier for Ross to keep the long-term employee with the pleasant demeanor — the one who treats him royally — than the only that’s perceived as difficult to work with. ▪ What about a CBS report that Flores preferred Herbert over Tagovailoa? Flores has told NFL people he’s a “height, weight, speed guy,” which led to speculation that he preferred Herbert. But a league source insisted both Grier and Flores were on board with drafting Tagovailoa, who was Ross’ preference. Ross didn’t order them to pick Tagovailoa, however.
Like many from the Bill Belichick coaching tree, Flores prioritized secrecy. He called me fuming one day in 2020 when I reported — 20 hours before game time — about the likelihood of an offensive lineman entering the following day’s game against Arizona in the second quarter. He was livid and insisted that nugget of information could help the Cardinals strategically, though I didn’t understand why because the Cardinals knew that lineman might play. That said, he was always respectful and civil with the media. ▪ The above anecdotes might suggest that Flores’ dismissal was justified.
Flores made mistakes in staff hires (especially with his 2021 offensive coordinators and offensive line coach) and he has only himself to blame for not fostering a better relationship with Grier.
Read more at: https://www.miamiherald.com/sports/...y-jackson/article256841207.html#storylink=cpy
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I’ll add to this…..
Truly great players that try coaching after their career is over, are usually awful at it.
I’ll use whiteboy Wayne Gretzky as an example.
Greatest hockey player EVER.
Sucked donkey dingkeberries as a coach.
To Tapes’ point, you can’t teach greatness/natural ability/dedication/heart/desire.
There’s a hard pill to swallow for many players who were big fish in small ponds in little league, high school, and even college.
Most don’t make the pros out of college. And the ones that do realize, “Holy Schnikes! There’s 300 pound lineman running 4.6 forty’s!”
We armchair QBs throw our hands up at how bad these players suck, but it’s compared to the other players already in the league……which is the top 1% of all football players on the planet.
So when these players figure out they’re not good enough compared to others, and they still love the game they play, they turn to coaching. Those that figure out sooner, get a head start into their coaching career and can learn to nuances and whatnot quicker. Someone can point out if I’m wrong, but I’m not aware of a Gretzky, Michael Jordan, Jerry Rice, etc type player that went on to be anywhere as great of a coach after their career.
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Now i understand his firing better. The owner wanted to tank in 2019, guess who was going 1st pick in 2020? Joe Burrow.
Owner sees burrows talent lifting a bungles organization to elite level and tastes the sour grapes thinking the kid should have been his franchise QB.
Owner says **** it, let's fire who I think is responsible for nor drafting him.
Flores gets canned despite showing very good coaching talent.
Owner sees burrows talent lifting a bungles organization to elite level and tastes the sour grapes thinking the kid should have been his franchise QB.
Owner says **** it, let's fire who I think is responsible for nor drafting him.
Flores gets canned despite showing very good coaching talent.
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as ive said a million times, the skillset for a position coach, a scout, a gm, a coordinator, and a head coach are drastically different… being a player probably helps in certain aspects, but it isn’t the only path to a job in coaching…
There are 32 head coaching jobs and some don’t come open in over a decade..
Its hard for anyone to get a shot… its not a guarantee anyone is getting one in a given year…
The reality is that nepotism and tunnel vision hires are always going to be prevalent in these jobs… i mean most of what he said had nothing to do with racism
And the miami stuff seems more like a boss he butted heads with than racism…
I don’t know… i mean its not illegal for a company to specifically target a person for a job… thats how headhunters make their bank, after all
His remedy of an injunction to force a hiring and training program specifically for black players seems more racist than the claims he made… especially since the nfl already has a training camp internship like program for ex players… also since he already had a head coaching job i don’t see how it would help him…
I just don’t think his case is going to have any merit at all
I think its going to be mostly viewed as sore grapes.. and it probably hurts him for the Saints job he might have been a frontrunner for
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Technically not true… playing devils advocate here…..
Tomlin lost a playoff game, so his total record was 9-8-1 with a win % of .528 while flores finished 9-8 so he had a win % of .529…..
Oh yeah… that was surely no coordinated by the *******… this is why the whole tainted pats family tree should be burned with fire
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Looks like someone is laying it on thick.
Former Miami Dolphins head coach Brian Flores got candid about the explosive lawsuit he filed against the NFL, saying he was “humiliated” by going into an interview with the Giants for a head coaching position he knew he wasn’t going to get.
“It was a range of emotions,” Flores said while appearing on “CBS Mornings” Wednesday. “Humiliation. Disbelief. Anger. I worked so hard to get where I am in football to become a head coach. To go in on what was a sham interview, I was hurt.”
Flores’ attorneys, also appearing on CBS, asserted that the Giants were “just trying to comply with the Rooney Rule,” a rule enacted by the league that requires teams to interview minority candidates for head coaching and football operations jobs.
A rule, that Flores stated, has been twisted far beyond its’ original meaning.
“The Rooney Rule was intended to give minorities an opportunity to sit down with ownership,” Flores said. “What it’s turned into, it’s just guys checking a box.”
nypost.com
Brian Flores: I was ‘humiliated’ walking into ‘sham’ Giants interview
Former Miami Dolphins head coach Brian Flores got candid about the explosive lawsuit he filed against the NFL, saying he was “humiliated” by going into an interview with the Giants for a head coaching position he knew he wasn’t going to get.
“It was a range of emotions,” Flores said while appearing on “CBS Mornings” Wednesday. “Humiliation. Disbelief. Anger. I worked so hard to get where I am in football to become a head coach. To go in on what was a sham interview, I was hurt.”
Flores’ attorneys, also appearing on CBS, asserted that the Giants were “just trying to comply with the Rooney Rule,” a rule enacted by the league that requires teams to interview minority candidates for head coaching and football operations jobs.
A rule, that Flores stated, has been twisted far beyond its’ original meaning.
“The Rooney Rule was intended to give minorities an opportunity to sit down with ownership,” Flores said. “What it’s turned into, it’s just guys checking a box.”
Brian Flores: I was ‘humiliated’ walking into ‘sham’ Giants interview
Former Miami Dolphins head coach Brian Flores got candid about the explosive lawsuit he filed against the NFL after a “sham” Giants interview.
nypost.com
Wait…. your not a white ginger?
So assuming that race holds absolutely no bearing on anything and generally the same percentages of people with various abilities are across the spectrum, then the NFL should have a minimum of five or so black head coaches … so i get the whole head coach narrative right now, but the reality is that until there is a bigger pool of ex head coaches that are black and not retired that portion of the league that loves recycling head coaches will trend very white… and that will skew numbers