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Devolution is a quick mofo.
James Harrison
- Thread starter Wingman
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Idioteque
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Marve Smith was a bust. I've seen it all.
This guy's been a fan for all of 5 years.
This guy's been a fan for all of 5 years.
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Hell even saying Stewart was a bust is just wrong. He was a 2nd round pick and played in 2 AFCC games. I didn't like him because I didn't think they could win a SB with him. I even coined the term "Worm Burners" because of him. But he wasn't a bust, he just wasn't capable of winning deep into the playoffs... Like Romo for example.
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The old guys are healthy. Makes a difference. Not having to go through training camp might end up being a plus in the long run. Old players get banged up more easily, and they take forever to heal. Sure, they would have come into the season in better shape had they gone through camp (provided they stayed healthy), but old guys only have so many snaps in them. They're likely to have more in the tank in December and January, than they would if they'd been getting beat up since July.
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Idioteque
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First of all, your list is astoundingly stupid.
But I noticed you chose to only list busts. Not the two separate cores of players Cowher built, both worlds better than what Tomlin has cobbled together.
Just ask yourself something. You don't have to answer in here; you're incapable of admitting to anything anti-Tomlin (to the point of calling Marvel, Kendrell, and Kordell "busts"). Just as yourself how this team would have done if not for Ben, Parker, Hines, Holmes, Heath, Hartings, Hampton, Aaron, Harrison, Farrior, Ike, Troy, and LeBeau. Hell, ask yourself where we'd be this year alone without what's left of that dynamite core of talent. Then tell yourself without crying that we'd be better than a perennial 5-11 team with Tomlin's handpicked core.
But control your emotions. I'd hate to read about some battered woman who had to take the brunt of your bullshit.
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Cowher built one core. The other was built by Chuck Noll. If Noll hadn't hired Joe Walton, ring number five would have come in the 90's.
Woodson
Lake
O'Donnell
Lloyd
Dawson
Nickerson
Eric Green
Foster
Haselrig
Strelczyk
John Jackson
This was the heart of Cowher's 90's teams. Bill had a first great draft, with Steed, Kirkland, and Searcy, but after that first year, his drafting was every bit as bad as what you complain about Tomlin and Colbert doing. From 1993 to 1997, only Jason Gildon, and Chad Brown were superior players, and Chad left, just like Keenan Lewis did. That period saw the Steelers land lots of journeyman players, such as, Lee Flowers, Charles Johnson, Mark Bruener, Chad Scott, Boo Bell, Brentson Buckner, Bam Morris, and so on. These are guys you need on a good team, but are not cornerstone players. When Noll's guys got old, the team missed the playoffs 3 straight years. Cowher began to draft difference makers in 98, and by 2001, the team started winning again.
Keep in mind, Bill's teams missed the playoffs 5 of his last 9 seasons, including two 6-10 seasons, and a 7-9. There is a lot to like about Bill Cowher, but let's not make him out to be Bill Walsh, or Chuck Noll.
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Idioteque
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I can't include Foster and Green there, as neither was a factor for more than one season under Cowher. And you're forgetting some key Cowher draftees. Not world-beaters, but great picks. Kordell was a Pro Bowl QB. Darren Perry was a Pro Bowl FS.
This alone blows past Tomlin's acquisition history to this point. We're looking at two recent drafts with zero players still on board. Utter failure in building the o-line and secondary (and dude is a DB coach!). Pass rush has gone from elite to horrendous. D-line has taken years to accumulate talent and is still full of holes. Bad, bad early whiffs at numerous positions.
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Steel Not A Player
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Hey you! Flacnuts! GET OVER HERE!
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Tomlin is in year 8, right at the point where Cowher's drafting got much better. Time will tell. Keep in mind that Cowher was so impressed with Hines Ward that he drafted a wideout in the first round two consecutive years. Ward turned out pretty good. In 1999, everything that you're saying about Tomlin, was being said about Cowher. Those teams were horrible, and if Bill had posted another losing season in 2000, he might have been in danger of getting fired.
Green played for 3 years under Cowher, and was the team's go to receiver all three years. Foster was the starting halfback in 92,93 and 94. Cowher did to him in 92, what Tomlin did to Parker in his first year. Both were stupidly run to death, and were never the same.
Perry was a nice player. I didn't list everyone. Jerry O was a nice player left by Noll, so was DJ Johnson.
I just feel that people overlook just how much talent was on the roster when Cowher took over. The biggest differences between what Tomlin inherited, and what Cowher did are these. Tomlin got a much better qb, and he got a more veteran roster. The plus is that the team was ready to win immediately. The minus is that overall, this was a much older team than what BC inherited. BC took over a team where all of the stars were just entering their prime, and were in place for a long run of success. This is exactly what happened. Tomlin won a title, and went to another SB in his first 4 years. BC had a 6 year playoff run with his slightly younger team. Both stumbled in the draft, which saw the team tumble. BC eventually turned it around. The next few years will tell the story for Tomlin. If what we've seen the last 3 weeks becomes more or less the norm, and the players from the last few drafts continue to get better, and we go on another run of playoff appearances, then it will be tough not to give Tomlin serious credit. Time will tell. What has separated the Steelers from most teams is the fact that the team has never cratered since Noll got us out of hell (5-11 in 1988 is the worst we've been), and that there have been few seasons where we didn't at least have hope that the team would make some noise. Even in the late 80's, and late 90's, we always expected to compete. I can't imagine going into training camp knowing that we had no chance to reach .500, let alone make the playoffs. This is reality for about a quarter of the league's teams, with some being in this position year after year. Cleveland, a franchise that was nearly always at least competitive before the move, fell into this spot after 2002. Ask them how it's felt to learn how the have nots feel.
PS. Those horrible 2 drafts are no longer recent, which may be why the team is on an upswing. The last 5 drafts have produced players who are now making an impact.
Also, look at BC's last 3 drafts. He nailed the first round with Ben, Miller, and Santonio, but pretty much whiffed in all the other rounds. This, along with 2008, and 2009, is the biggest reason for those 8-8 years. It's great to nail your first rounder, but you have to get at least one more good player out of a draft. One guy a year just won't cut it.
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The 2009 draft is strange. Hood was a bust, but that was actually a very solid draft. Seven of the nine players are still in the league, which is very good 6 years in, and some of those guys have had very solid careers. The problem is, none of them are here. 2008 is the real turd. Mendenhall didn't live up to his draft position, though he certainly is not close to the level of Greg Hawthorne, Walter Abercrombie, or Tim Worley, all of whom were true busts. The rest of that draft was just awful. 1996, 1991, and especially 1983 were terrible drafts, but 1985 takes the title. Noll really lost his touch in the first half of the 1980's, but it sure came back late in his run, save for his final year.
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I stopped discussing it with you Idioteque because you sir are a TOOL. You can take your Tomlin hate and your domestic abuse crusade and shove them up your ARSE.
Great posts Steelermania.. I have had these debates in the past with other posters. I failed to express myself as well as you have. Good job.
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Idioteque
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Your problem is that you feel Tomlin vs. Cowher is proof that Tomlin is awesome. You think that mis-steps by Cowher in the past are what vindicate Tomlin as a coach. Which is just silly.
see, if you took a stance that was directly in the middle without stating that one was better than the other, but that one is better than the other at this, but not that, though the other can do this but not that, then you could understand what is being said.
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It starts in the mind with a powerful self propelled internal drive. The rest is training,genetics,nutrition,wisdom and god given talent. You can stamp that on most highly successful athletes.Great athletes are born,not made. I will say many that are born never take the athletic path so they're never realized.
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There are many athletes, who like Harrison, were undrafted, got cut, and then got on with their life's work. The fact that he kept after it so doggedly, is an indication of the drive he has inside. Why was Michael Jordan so great? There have been plenty of players who could soar through the air, and do fantastic dunks. Vince Carter, Tracey McGrady, and Dominique Wilkins come to mind. All are hall of fame level players, but none are in Jordan's league. Jordan just had a fire that few athletes have. Mario had it, so did Jim Brown. James has this drive as well, and it's why he was able to overcome the fact that on paper, he didn't have the measurables that the NFL looks for. The athlete that most reminds me of James is Marvin Hagler. Hagler didn't have an Olympic gold medal like Ray Leonard. Nor did he have an established boxing legend in his corner like Mike Tyson did with Cus D'Amoto. He literally had to fight his way up through boxing's most competitive weight class, to reach the top. Like Harrison, Hagler was relentless.
I've said time and time again both are good coaches. I like them both. Neither was or is perfect. Both had their share of flaws and both have their share of good qualities. It was never Tomlin vs Cowher for me. I would just like the Rooneys to be as patient as they always been with their coaches. They find a good young guy and stick with him. I like that. Not the Browns, Raiders way.
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Flacco limped into Ozzies office Monday morning and said "if Harrison is ever a free agent again, you ******* sign him....or I quit"
Also i dont see how me telling another poster good job for doing a good job expressing something requires a response from you telling me what my problem is. I didnt tell you your problem is you're a argumentive jackass who only argues hypothetical **** cause you dont actually watch games except the ones on national tv now did I.
Sorry Supe im a idiot.
Hmmm. Now I'm confused. I thought that was another guy?
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Me too... but then there's this...
http://instagram.com/p/u-6DroTU9W/
That about sums it up... dude is just strong and doggedly determined. Will NOT be told "no"