James Harrison

[FAB802]

If we are going to say Cowher's run from 1998-2001 dwarf's anything Tomlin has done let's actually list the players involved that did anything for either us, or another team. I'll list the ones I see, I'm sure it won't be good enough, but I see what I see. I lump the coaches/FO and scouts together because that's who really does all the work and collectively makes the call.

Cowher/FO 1997-2001: C. Scott, Vrabel, Faneca, Ward, DeShea Townsend, Porter, Aaron Smith, Plaxico, Marvel Smith, Haggans, Casey Hampton, Kendrell Bell. Faneca, Hampton and Plaxico are the firsts they (Cowher, the scouts and FO) hit on.

Scott started for a good stretch, Vrabel went on to play a big role for the * after doing nothing here.

Faneca was a Hall of Fame caliber player, Ward is Ward, DeShea was solid for us.

Porter was the next in line for our four down LB's and a great one for a long stretch, Aaron Smith was a Hell of a find where they got him, he was a great one in our system and one of my all time favorites.

Plaxico could have been a lot better than he ended up, he just had issues from the neck up everywhere he went. He was a legit one for a couple seasons here. Marvel was a good starter for a stretch, and Haggans was a good contributor considering where he was picked.

Hampton was one of the best DT's in the game for a three four DT. He did the thankless work, and the defense was what it was in a lot of ways because of his presence in the middle. Kendrell Bell was a freak until derailed by injuries. He didn't exactly work out because of that, but he was no bust either. He was a what could have been kind of impact player.

Tomlin/FO 2009-2013: Urbik, Keenan Lewis, Wallace, Pouncey, Worilds, Sanders, Antonio Brown, Heyward, Gilbert, Allen, DeCastro, Adams, Spence, Beachum, Bell, Wheaton. Pouncey and DeCastro are the one's they have hit on so far TBD.

Now, Urbik didn't make it here but has started 45 games in the league. Wallace scored more TD's in his first three years than any WR in franchise history. Lewis was solid by the time he left and got a contract for NO to start at CB. Some here are saying we were stupid not to resign him.

Pouncey has been a Pro Bowler and has been mentioned as one of the best at his position. Worilds is overrated for me, but they are paying him like they believe he's important. Sanders is a good WR putting up great numbers in a WR friendly system. Antonio is one of the top five WR's in the game, numbers don't lie.

Heyward flashes but it's too early for me to say he will be more than a starter level guy. Gilbert is serviceable, Allen is struggling and has lost his job for now.

Decastro is solid, Adams looked a lot better when he had to fill in against Indy so the jury is still out on him, Spence is finally on the field so other than that he's an incomplete, Beachum has also started for us.

Jarvis is not living up to expectations as a first, time will tell if he ever does. LeVeon Bell is a tip five RB with his skill set, Wheaton is coming around as a solid #2, he's making a bigger impact in his second year.

For me the best draft for the Steelers between 1997 and 2001 was the Faneca/Ward draft. You got arguable two HOF players in one draft. Others may have provided a couple more players, but I don't think you can beat what those two brought over the long haul.

Here is the rub, none of the new regime's drafts are close to being retired, so being able to truly compare them as a finished product is all conjecture and projection.

I'm willing to say the 2010 draft with Pouncey/Worilds/Sanders/Brown can be as good as that draft if they finish on their current path. Worilds is only listed because he is starting, Pouncey's potential looks like it will always be tied to health. I'm no lineman guru but enough people who are supposed to be experts list him as one of the best in the league. Sanders in that system will put up video game numbers, and ultimately numbers don't lie. Antonio Brown is as good as any WR running routes and after the catch as either of those regimes have produced. He's on a Hell of a run and I hope he keeps it up. There is no way to project if any of them end up in the HOF. Faneca and Ward are still waiting too, so they are that level still just by opinion until it becomes fact.

That's what I see. This current regime has had some misses, but so did the last couple. It happens. There are enough high level contributors from these last couple drafts to give me hope. It has to play out to know for sure. Nobody here can predict the future, or change the past. Once these guys are done you can look back and actually say who did better. It may not be the fun way to argue it, but arguing finished products against players who aren't even in their prime is flat out not a fair way to do it. Right now that's how I see it. I know I'm no expert and someone will refute it and that's fine. I'm trying to make it more about what I see and less about who I'm directing it to, which is nobody in particular.

 

[Vader]

We will have to wait and see. Right now Brown is the only guy from 2009-2013 that can touch anything from 1997-2001. He has the chance to be a great WR. To me he is the only one that could be a HOF player.

 

[FAB802]

The only guy who can touch that entire stretch? Good Lord already. I love the glory days as much as the next guy, but with all due respect, that's a ridiculous statement. By all means, do what I tried to and be as objective as you can and break them down for us. That kind of statement without any kind of follow up is hyperbole and nothing more. I'm no smarter than anyone else, but at least try and back it up with some kind of evaluation of the players involved.

 

[Vader]

The only guy who can touch that entire stretch? Good Lord already. I love the glory days as much as the next guy, but with all due respect, that's a ridiculous statement. By all means, do what I tried to and be as objective as you can and break them down for us. That kind of statement without any kind of follow up is hyperbole and nothing more. I'm no smarter than anyone else, but at least try and back it up with some kind of evaluation of the players involved.

I've done this a hundred times on here and all I get is **** for it. I've broken down the drafts and the players from Noll, Cowher, and Tomlin. Then I get this ****. I was merely saying, your highness, that Brown is the only HOF I see in comparison to the HOFers drafted during Cowher's time. Good ******* grief.

 

[Idioteque]

Also i dont see how me telling another poster good job for doing a good job expressing something requires a response from you telling me what my problem is. I didnt tell you your problem is you're a argumentive jackass who only argues hypothetical **** cause you dont actually watch games except the ones on national tv now did I.

Yes, you just did. It's your only recourse when your stupid shtick is refuted time and again.

Tell me more about how Cowher's mistakes make Tomlin a better coach/catchphrase choreographer.

 

[Idioteque]

I've done this a hundred times on here and all I get is **** for it. I've broken down the drafts and the players from Noll, Cowher, and Tomlin. Then I get this ****. I was merely saying, your highness, that Brown is the only HOF I see in comparison to the HOFers drafted during Cowher's time. Good ******* grief.

How can you argue with stuff like "ultimately numbers don't lie, so Sanders is amazing" and "people whoa re supposed to be experts say Pouncey is one of the best"?

 

[Idioteque]

Can't disagree with board gurus who put their whole life into scouting players and mocking mocks, they're a level above us regular fans.

Or with those who admit they don't know what they're talking about, but obnoxiously babble their two cents anyway.

 

[antdrewjosh]

Yes, you just did. It's your only recourse when your stupid shtick is refuted time and again.

Tell me more about how Cowher's mistakes make Tomlin a better coach/catchphrase choreographer.

Oh I did tell you. I didnt know. Idiot.

 

[Idioteque]

What's funny is that comparing Cowher v. Tomlin is moot. Entirely moot and irrelevant to evaluating Tomlin as a coach.

If Cowher were a god awful coach who never won a game, would that make Tomlin a better coach?

If Cowher's teams had won 9 Super Bowls, would that make Tomlin a worse coach?

The problem is that a few posters insist on invoking Cowher's mistakes as some kind of "evidence" that Tomlin is actually really awesome. The fact that Cowher missed on many draft picks doesn't make Tomlin's crappy drafting better, nor does it mean he's The Answer going forward. Nor does it erase all of Tomlin's stupid coaching moves over the years.

An objective measure of our drafts under Tomlin nets a lot of question marks, because these are mostly guys who are just entering their primes and their books aren't finished yet. But in the present, any objective measure shows that we've drafted below the line under Tomlin. As the holdovers have aged, few guys have stepped up to replace them beyond an adequate level at best, and we've been drowning in key areas. We've drafted one hands-down stud (Brown), blown too many early picks to count, and have yet to field even a decent o-line, secondary, or pass rush in the last half-decade. The d-line has promise, but nothing great outside of Heyward, who flashes but is subpar against the run. To this day, most of our positive contributions still come from the holdovers. We mostly live and die on the play of Ben, Ike, Troy, Harrison, etc. While we have great skill position talent in Bell and Brown, we have yet to fortify the lines, pass rush, or secondary. That is not arguable to any degree.

And we've only seen two rebuttals to this:

1. But Cowher blew some draft picks too! (When he wasn't building the league's best core of players from 1998 on.)

2. These guys are young! Give them time! Why, Cortez Allen is only in his fourth year! Any day now, Marcus Gilbert and Jarvis Jones are gonna ***-plode all over the NFL!!

 

[Hines57]

Or with those who admit they don't know what they're talking about, but obnoxiously babble their two cents anyway.

Just nailed yourself in a nutshell. Keep patting yourself on the back kid.

 

[Idioteque]

Or with those who admit they don't know what they're talking about, but obnoxiously babble their two cents anyway.

Then, to display my clairvoyance, we get:

More non-football bullshit aimed at the meeeeanest, name-calliest poster evar!!

 

[Superman]

what I see people forgetting is that the majority of Cowher's defensive draft picks were picking splinters out of their ***** for their first few seasons. Unlike those of Tomlin who are thrust into starting. This is either by design or they're simply better than the old guard.

Peezy wasn't an immediate starter.
Timmons was.

Two different coaches, with two different approaches. All along, it's produced near identical results as their W-L coaching records are damn near even at this point.

 

[FAB802]

How can you argue with stuff like "ultimately numbers don't lie, so Sanders is amazing" and "people whoa re supposed to be experts say Pouncey is one of the best"?

You have to be one of the drippiest wet vaginas I have ever encountered. Do numbers lie? If a RB retires with the most rushing yards in NFL history does the voting public care that he played behind the best line in the league for almost the entire time? When a WR like Sanders plays in a pass happy offense does he all of a sudden become a better player, or are his numbers based on the system he's in? Right now he is getting a lot of run for the numbers he's putting up. Unlike you I am not making that up. Find where I called him amazing you pompous piece of ****. It never came out of my mouth.

I respect the thoughts of some of the television commentators because some of them actually played the ******* game and understand what it takes to do so. If numbers don't mean anything what does your all knowing, ******** *** base your opinions on? The eye test? What are YOUR qualifications superstar? You talk **** about every other person who disagrees with you. Were you a scout? Did you play? Are you a coach? Please, enlighten us all with your intardnet expertise.

Don't try to interpret what I mean, or add adjectives for me, because that would entail you being able to give anyone else's idea or opinion some thought, which you are incapable of doing. Just because I believe some of what I see and hear doesn't mean I believe it all. You and your all or nothing bullshit has gotten stale. Your whiny *** asks all the time for someone to put their thoughts down. I did. You disagree? Fine. You want to be an *******? **** you man, you aren't **** but a ******* glorified home team troll sitting in his office/house making snarky comments to get a giggle out of himself. Congrats on continuing with your life's work. But you are a better "fan" because you can keep it real. Please.

 

[ThePittsburghKid]

Yes, you just did. It's your only recourse when your stupid shtick is refuted time and again.

Tell me more about how Cowher's mistakes make Tomlin a better coach/catchphrase choreographer.

Idioteque:

Does your wife beat you?

 

[Vader]

what I see people forgetting is that the majority of Cowher's defensive draft picks were picking splinters out of their ***** for their first few seasons. Unlike those of Tomlin who are thrust into starting. This is either by design or they're simply better than the old guard.

Peezy wasn't an immediate starter.
Timmons was.

Two different coaches, with two different approaches. All along, it's produced near identical results as their W-L coaching records are damn near even at this point.

Timmons didn't start until his 3rd year. Exactly the same as Porter.

 

[Superman]

Timmons didn't start until his 3rd year. Exactly the same as Porter.

actually, we are both incorrect. he started in 2008, his second year.

 

[antdrewjosh]

Non-football lol. This from the guy who only argues made up **** never, about the actual games. Who will post all day long in game threads with some sarcstic snarky comment whether he is watching or not when the team is failing but as soon as they start playing better not one post of excitement is made and then disappears entirely from the thread. The same guy who repeatedly asked why the Archer thread wasnt closed and pointed to it as the ruination of the site is now posting in it all will nilly cause the team is winning and he cant get his argue fix about Tomlin or any other hypothetical imaginary theorectical bullshit that almost always have nothing to do with anything that actually happens in the games.

 

[Punxsutawney]

Timmons didn't start until his 3rd year. Exactly the same as Porter.

Porter started in his second season.

 

[steelermania]

I've done this a hundred times on here and all I get is **** for it. I've broken down the drafts and the players from Noll, Cowher, and Tomlin. Then I get this ****. I was merely saying, your highness, that Brown is the only HOF I see in comparison to the HOFers drafted during Cowher's time. Good ******* grief.

Of course in 2000, which was our third consecutive non playoff year, who could have looked at those players, and saw what they became? Cowher thought so little of Ward that they drafted wide receivers in the first round 2 years in a row. We have the benefit of hindsight with regard to those players now. Ten years from now, we may be arguing that Bell was better than Franco and the Bus. It's just too early to tell.

 

[Punxsutawney]

actually, we are both incorrect. he started in 2008, his second year.

Larry Foote started in that spot in 2008, though Timmons played a lot.

 

[Superman]

Non-football lol. This from the guy who only argues made up **** never, about the actual games. Who will post all day long in game threads with some sarcstic snarky comment whether he is watching or not when the team is failing but as soon as they start playing better not one post of excitement is made and then disappears entirely from the thread. The same guy who repeatedly asked why the Archer thread wasnt closed and pointed to it as the ruination of the site is now posting in it all will nilly cause the team is winning and he cant get his argue fix about Tomlin or any other hypothetical imaginary theorectical bullshit that almost always have nothing to do with anything that actually happens in the games.

studies have shown that when the football is inflated with Nitrogen from the "B" pump at the Shell station in McKeesport that that particular ball is a receiving touchdown when we're going against the open side of the stadium, but only when we're ahead by 3, but when the clock has precisely 8:41 on it with the game clock having ticked down to no more than 7 seconds pre-snap and when Ben has put on his left shoe first, then his shoulder pads, then cup, then right shoe and the remainder of his uniform, albeit playing without NFL-mandated socks.

argue against that, you racist dickbag.

 

[Vader]

actually, we are both incorrect. he started in 2008, his second year.

Timmons only started 2 games his second year. Porter only started 4 his 2nd year. Neither became full time starters until their 3rd year.

 

[antdrewjosh]

studies have shown that when the football is inflated with Nitrogen from the "B" pump at the Shell station in McKeesport that that particular ball is a receiving touchdown when we're going against the open side of the stadium, but only when we're ahead by 3, but when the clock has precisely 8:41 on it with the game clock having ticked down to no more than 7 seconds pre-snap and when Ben has put on his left shoe first, then his shoulder pads, then cup, then right shoe and the remainder of his uniform, albeit playing without NFL-mandated socks.

argue against that, you racist dickbag.

You sir have too much time on your hands lmao

I would give you karma for that but i must pass some around plus the karma nazi has been acting like a *****.

 

[Superman]

Larry Foote started in that spot in 2008, though Timmons played a lot.

yeah, that's why I got it mixed up. thanks

2008 (16-2/3-0): Played in all 16 regular-season games for the second consecutive season and made his first two NFL starts…established career highs with 71 tackles (49 solo) and five sacks…recorded his first NFL interception at New England on November 30 and returned it 89 yards, the third-longest interception return in team history…had one pass defensed and one forced fumble…made seven tackles on special teams…had six tackles (four solo) against the Colts during his first NFL start on November 9…recorded a career-high 12 tackles (seven solo) during his second start in the regular-season finale…played in all three postseason games…finished with 11 postseason tackles (10 solo)…made three postseason tackles on special teams…forced the first fumble of his postseason career against the Ravens in the AFC Championship Game…9/7 vs. Houston: Registered four tackles (three solo)…also added a solo tackle on special teams…9/21 at Philadelphia: Had three solo tackles and two QB pressures…9/29 vs. Baltimore: Recorded three solo tackles, including his first career sack of Joe Flacco in overtime…also had one pass defensed and one solo tackle on special teams…10/19 at Cincinnati: Played in his 22nd consecutive game as a reserve LB and as a contributor on special teams…finished with nine tackles (six solo)…registered a career-high two sacks…added one QB pressure…had one solo tackle on special teams…10/26 vs. New York Giants: Had two assisted tackles…had one solo tackle on special teams…11/3 at Washington: Finished with four tackles (three solo) and one sack…11/9 vs. Indianapolis: Made his first career start at OLB in place of injured LaMarr Woodley…finished second on the team with six tackles (four solo)…had one QB pressure…11/20 vs. Cincinnati: Finished with three tackles (two solo) and two QB hits…11/30 at New England: Recorded five tackles (three solo) and one QB pressure…registered his first career interception, which he returned 89 yards to the Patriots one-yard line in the fourth quarter…12/7 vs. Dallas: Recorded three tackles (two solo)…had one assisted tackle on special teams…recovered one fumble on special teams…12/14 at Baltimore: Made six tackles (five solo) and had one QB pressure…forced the first fumble of his career when he sacked Joe Flacco on the Ravens’ next-to-last-possession, knocking them out of field goal range…had one solo tackle on special teams…12/21 at Tennessee: Had three solo tackles and one QB pressure…12/28 vs. Cleveland: Made his second career start at OLB in place of the injured James Harrison…recorded 12 tackles (seven solo), the most in his career to that point…had one solo tackle on special teams…AFC Divisional Game 1/11 vs. San Diego: Finished with two solo tackles…had one solo tackle on special teams…AFC Championship Game 1/18 vs. Baltimore: Recorded five tackles (four solo) and one QB pressure…recovered the first fumble of his postseason career late in the fourth quarter…had one solo tackle on special teams…Super Bowl XLIII 2/1 vs. Arizona: Made four solo tackles and one solo tackle on special teams.

 

[GoSteelers]

geeeeesh some of you!