Uncle Jarvis

[Litos]

This part:



You've made other posts indicating that you're skeptical of Tomlin style players vs. Cowher style players. I was just curious as to what it was about 'Tomlin style' players you feel could be of detriment.

beef Vs speed is what he's referring to

 

[Wingman]

In reality 2 or 3 years we will know what we really have in Tomlin as a coach and team builder. It is likely that nearly all the players on the team will be Tomlin's and a large number will have had time to get past the rookie stage and be players or not. It will also allow Tomlin to have had the time needed to grow into his position as a head coach. It will generally take someone a few years to grow into a position when it is that much of a change from where he was. I hope he makes a big improvement otherwise we will end up starting over with another guy in the next 5 or so years, and that will likely be followed by 2 to 3 years of rebuilding again.

 

[SteelerFan448]

In reality 2 or 3 years we will know what we really have in Tomlin as a coach and team builder. It is likely that nearly all the players on the team will be Tomlin's and a large number will have had time to get past the rookie stage and be players or not. It will also allow Tomlin to have had the time needed to grow into his position as a head coach. It will generally take someone a few years to grow into a position when it is that much of a change from where he was. I hope he makes a big improvement otherwise we will end up starting over with another guy in the next 5 or so years, and that will likely be followed by 2 to 3 years of rebuilding again.

Two or three years? Why not now? A team doesn't have to be made exclusively of your players to be properly evaluated. The team, as it is currently constructed, has not been good enough for two straight years. A third year of it and you really need to take a close look at your GM and HC. I'm not going to wait another two to three years beyond that before I get a strong feel for what he is capable of doing when it comes to team building.

 

[Idioteque]

he's oblivious.
despite the karma received from a startling number of different posters, it is only 3-5 posters who dismiss him.

Only one follows me from board to board, though

Besides, I'm not interested in Supersteeler's perception of the perception of my posting. I asked for examples of HAAATAAAAASS!! who don't admit to being wrong. I actually only asked for one, as proof he had some kind of substance behind his limp attempt at smack; stunningly, he didn't have any examples.

 

[Vader]

Two or three years? Why not now? A team doesn't have to be made exclusively of your players to be properly evaluated. The team, as it is currently constructed, has not been good enough for two straight years. A third year of it and you really need to take a close look at your GM and HC. I'm not going to wait another two to three years beyond that before I get a strong feel for what he is capable of doing when it comes to team building.

This. Right now I think there are 3 players left from Cowher. Ike, Troy and Ben. I didn't look it up but I think that is right. Tomlin has had 8 drafts and is entering his 8th season. He isn't a newbie anymore. He's 6th in the NFL as far as tenure goes. If things don't improve within the next year or two something needs to change with the GM or Tomlin... or both.

 

[deljzc]

I thought something needed to change this off-season. But that's just me.

 

[SteelerFan448]

This. Right now I think there are 3 players left from Cowher. Ike, Troy and Ben. I didn't look it up but I think that is right. Tomlin has had 8 drafts and is entering his 8th season. He isn't a newbie anymore. He's 6th in the NFL as far as tenure goes. If things don't improve within the next year or two something needs to change with the GM or Tomlin... or both.

And Ben and Troy continue to be two of the Steelers best players. Take those two away and what does this team look like?

 

[Bigappleyinzer]

And Ben and Troy continue to be two of the Steelers best players. Take those two away and what does this team look like?

Troy is a special player, but he stopped being elite since about 2011. He hasnt been the best player on the defense for at least 2 years now. Ben is a great QB but struggled earlier in the season- I actually think that ABrown was the most valuable player on the offense (as did the team when they voted him MVP)...

Too much romanticizing about "Cowhers" players. Point is, we were becoming a very very old team. The team is in the process of transitioning and getting younger, which doesnt always look pretty. So you armchair QB's proclaiming that we have to go 12-4 or else are either 1.) unrealistic 2.) retarded.

Last year was our first real year of 'transitioning'. So an 8-8 season and a single FG miss from a playoff berth, is far from terrible.

 

[deljzc]

Troy is a special player, but he stopped being elite since about 2011. He hasnt been the best player on the defense for at least 2 years now. Ben is a great QB but struggled earlier in the season- I actually think that ABrown was the most valuable player on the offense (as did the team when they voted him MVP)...

Too much romanticizing about "Cowhers" players. Point is, we were becoming a very very old team. The team is in the process of transitioning and getting younger, which doesnt always look pretty. So you armchair QB's proclaiming that we have to go 12-4 or else are either 1.) unrealistic 2.) retarded.

Last year was our first real year of 'transitioning'. So an 8-8 season and a single FG miss from a playoff berth, is far from terrible.

This is biggest horseshit I've read in awhile.

A "transition" happens ALL the time. It's been happening since the moment Tomlin walked in the door. Every year, he's tinkered with the roster, added new guys he's had input on selecting and helped make decisions on those he inherited.

What the ****?

How many ******* excuses to you want to keep writing Tombert? We're a ******* .500 team. End of story. They either get consistently better, they stay mediocre, or (god-forbid) they get worse. Only playing the games will determine that.

I am so sick of Cowher's players, Tomlin's players and "if and when" there is some specific moment in time it became Tomlin's team. All I know is Tomlin is underachieving (especially the last two seasons). It's statistically a proven fact. Everyone knows it.

We know ownership decided to stay the course with Tombert and is hoping for a turnaround.

Some here are optimistic about a turnaround. Some are not. Every thing anyone writes about on this board pretty much breaks down into those specific black/white opinions.

 

[Jeffro]

It seems ironic to me that most fans of a certain age that should remember the 80's with Noll and the 90's with Cowher are so quick to want to throw the baby out with the bathwater when it comes to Tomlin.

We as a fan base have become so accustomed to being at the top of the league that even mediocre seasons feel like 0-16.

While I am by no means praising Mike Tomlin, I think he has done enough to earn a few more years. Our team was dreadful last season. He did the best he could with the talent he had available.Some of those issues have to deal with the salary cap and the deals they made to keep players here. The fact that the Steelers went 8-8 last year truly amazes me. We weren't that good. The offense line was in shambles for most of the season and the defense was slowwwww.

You know when all the pundits said last summer that we were old and slow, I could see what they were saying. Fortunately KC, MT and Dick Lebeau all finally fessed up and admitted to it.

The first step in recovery is admitting you have a problem. Then take steps to address the problem. They have done just that.

I truly believe with the additions and subtractions we have made, and a little luck staying away from the injury bug we should have no problem retaking our division and quite possibly make a strong charge through the playoffs!

 

[antdrewjosh]

No no no no..its easy to replace great players and have great players waiting and ready to go in their place.

 

[Vader]

How were they old and slow last year? Hood is gone and replaced by the exact same age guy in Thomas. They had a rookie at ROLB and LILB. Even if Shazier starts, he is taking the place of another rookie. The only spot on defense that is younger than last year is safety where they signed a 27 year old Mitchell. So they are younger now because of ONE guy?

 

[deljzc]

It seems ironic to me that most fans of a certain age that should remember the 80's with Noll and the 90's with Cowher are so quick to want to throw the baby out with the bathwater when it comes to Tomlin.

We as a fan base have become so accustomed to being at the top of the league that even mediocre seasons feel like 0-16.

While I am by no means praising Mike Tomlin, I think he has done enough to earn a few more years. Our team was dreadful last season. He did the best he could with the talent he had available.Some of those issues have to deal with the salary cap and the deals they made to keep players here. The fact that the Steelers went 8-8 last year truly amazes me. We weren't that good. The offense line was in shambles for most of the season and the defense was slowwwww.

You know when all the pundits said last summer that we were old and slow, I could see what they were saying. Fortunately KC, MT and Dick Lebeau all finally fessed up and admitted to it.

The first step in recovery is admitting you have a problem. Then take steps to address the problem. They have done just that.

I truly believe with the additions and subtractions we have made, and a little luck staying away from the injury bug we should have no problem retaking our division and quite possibly make a strong charge through the playoffs!

There is an argument to be made we should have gotten rid of Chuck Noll years before we actually did, right?

I mean, I understand being faithfull to your first great coach. I get it and Noll probably gets to write his own retirement party, but looking back wouldn't it have been better for the franchise to move on earlier? The team went 51-61 over his last 7 seasons, never won 10+ games and made the playoffs once.

As far as Cowher, the only time it came up to fire Cowher was 2000. At that point he missed the playoffs 3 times in a row. But even then he had a winning record (9-7) and still had the legacy of SIX straight playoff appearances prior to those 3 bad years. And in fact the Steelers DID make a big front office change over that low point when they fired our GM and hired Kevin Colbert.

Honestly, the idea this organization doesn't make changes in bad times isn't really true.

Since 1972, this organization has only had 5 "events" of missing the playoff multiple seasons in a row. Three happened under Chuck Noll (and he was given carte blance for obvious reasons).

The 4th event happened between 1998-2000, when our GM was fired.

The 5th event we are currently in.

 

[SteelerFan448]

Troy is a special player, but he stopped being elite since about 2011. He hasnt been the best player on the defense for at least 2 years now. Ben is a great QB but struggled earlier in the season- I actually think that ABrown was the most valuable player on the offense (as did the team when they voted him MVP)...

Never said that Troy was the best player on defense, but I do want to know which guys you think is better. Also, you can have Antonio Brown as your best player on offense. I'll take Roethlisberger every day of the week and it isn't even close.

Too much romanticizing about "Cowhers" players. Point is, we were becoming a very very old team. The team is in the process of transitioning and getting younger, which doesnt always look pretty. So you armchair QB's proclaiming that we have to go 12-4 or else are either 1.) unrealistic 2.) retarded.

Part of running a franchise is replenishing old talent as it leaves. They have done an awful job of that in recent years. Besides this, if you have a franchise quarterback, I expect that you compete every year. Ask New England and Indianapolis (with a healthy Manning) if an 8-8 season was acceptable. I bet they felt 12-4 was possible every season.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

How were they old and slow last year? Hood is gone and replaced by the exact same age guy in Thomas. They had a rookie at ROLB and LILB. Even if Shazier starts, he is taking the place of another rookie. The only spot on defense that is younger than last year is safety where they signed a 27 year old Mitchell. So they are younger now because of ONE guy?

Brett Keisel.

Also, Timmons is replacing Williams at Buck, who in turn was a Foote Replacement. Shazier is taking Timmons' old mack spot.

 

[Vader]

Brett Keisel.

Also, Timmons is replacing Williams at Buck, who in turn was a Foote Replacement. Shazier is taking Timmons' old mack spot.

He maybe back. I never said where they played. I just said that Shazier is taking another young guys spot. I wasn't being position specific. Fact is that the age of the team is almost identical as last year.

 

[Wingman]

Two or three years? Why not now? A team doesn't have to be made exclusively of your players to be properly evaluated. The team, as it is currently constructed, has not been good enough for two straight years. A third year of it and you really need to take a close look at your GM and HC. I'm not going to wait another two to three years beyond that before I get a strong feel for what he is capable of doing when it comes to team building.

I am considering all of those factors not just Cowher's players vs Tomlin's players. Mike Tomlin came to this position with out the benefit of having been a head coach or an offensive or defensive coordinator. The change in position from a defensive backs coach to head coach is huge. It is reasonable to expect some learning and development. It is also reasonable to expect some growth during his time here, of his abilities and skills. I really disliked his hiring over other more experienced coaches that were already in the organization. The Rooneys may have chosen this particular man because in some ways he was inexperienced and could be molded by them into the Coach they wanted. When he came into the organization he was blessed with a team that was one season from winning a Superbowl. Much as a young qb will be taught to initially be a game manager and rely on those around him to do a lot of the work Tomlin was likely put into a very good position to have lots of help to minimize his growing pains as he learned his new position. There are new assistant coaches adding to the mix, there is still the old defensive coordinator and linebackers coach which is the likely successor. There is a new offensive coordinator and offensive line coach to the mix. Many of the coaches on this team have previous head coaching experience.

It is now the time to see if Tomlin has actually grown into the coach they wanted. There will be lots of new blood and he will likely have more responsibility now than the past few years. He will in fact have been here long enough to have put his stamp on everything and to have grown into the position he has been hired for. 2-3 seasons will show what they truly have and be a large enough sample to defeat the bad luck or good luck possibilities that can come up from time to time in the game.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

He maybe back. I never said where they played. I just said that Shazier is taking another young guys spot. I wasn't being position specific. Fact is that the age of the team is almost identical as last year.

What? Brett Keisel was a starter. Him being replaced by Heyward automatically makes the D younger.

 

[insaniti]

This. Right now I think there are 3 players left from Cowher. Ike, Troy and Ben. I didn't look it up but I think that is right. Tomlin has had 8 drafts and is entering his 8th season. He isn't a newbie anymore. He's 6th in the NFL as far as tenure goes. If things don't improve within the next year or two something needs to change with the GM or Tomlin... or both.

There's also Heath and Gregg Warren lol

 

[Vader]

What? Brett Keisel was a starter. Him being replaced by Heyward automatically makes the D younger.

Heyward could replace Hood. IF they bring Keisel back then you have Heyward at LDE, McClendon at NT and Keisel at RDE. If you want to get technical about it then every starter from last year is a year older. So the cumulative age would be high this year after you subtract the few years difference between Clark and Mitchell.

 

[Vader]

There's also Heath and Gregg Warren lol

lol, yes I didn't look at the roster.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

Heyward could replace Hood. IF they bring Keisel back then you have Heyward at LDE, McClendon at NT and Keisel at RDE. If you want to get technical about it then every starter from last year is a year older. So the cumulative age would be high this year after you subtract the few years difference between Clark and Mitchell.

Heyward is not replacing Hood. He's replacing Keisel. Cam Thomas, and later Stephon Tuitt are replacing Hood. All of the OTAs to this point have reflected this. Hell, the reason Cam Heyward couldn't get on the field initially was because he was behind Keisel before Tomlin benched Hood and put Cam in his place.

I'm not being technical, I'm using your criteria. Jeez man, just admit you made a mistake and move on.

 

[SteelerFan448]

Mike Tomlin came to this position with out the benefit of having been a head coach or an offensive or defensive coordinator.

He was actually the defensive coordinator for the Vikings for one year prior to being hired by the Steelers.

I understand that his experience was lacking, but if you hire the guy as your head coach, you have to get past that. He has been head coach here long enough to know what he is all about. Quite honestly, if you are still waiting for a head coach to put his stamp on a team this long into his tenure, then you probably hired the wrong guy.

 

[Vader]

Heyward is not replacing Hood. He's replacing Keisel. Cam Thomas, and later Stephon Tuitt are replacing Hood. All of the OTAs to this point have reflected this. Hell, the reason Cam Heyward couldn't get on the field initially was because he was behind Keisel before Tomlin benched Hood and put Cam in his place.

I'm not being technical, I'm using your criteria. Jeez man, just admit you made a mistake and move on.

What mistake did I make? Keisel could still be signed and play RDE.. right? You act like the starters are set. They are not. The reason Cam couldn't get on the field is because the coaches were giving Hood one last chance to do something. He was a 1st round pick you know. Heyward backed up both LDE and RDE. So if Hood went down Cam would have gone in. Like I said if Keisel comes back the defense will actually be older than last year.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

What mistake did I make? Keisel could still be signed and play RDE.. right? You act like the starters are set. They are not. The reason Cam couldn't get on the field is because the coaches were giving Hood one last chance to do something. He was a 1st round pick you know. Heyward backed up both LDE and RDE. So if Hood went down Cam would have gone in. Like I said if Keisel comes back the defense will actually be older than last year.

who is Keisel going to start over? He's been a RDE his entire Tenure with the Steelers. They're going to sign him and slap him on the left? Why even bother sign Cam Thomas if both he and Tuitt are just going to sit behind Keisel? Or is the 35 year old Keisel going to start over Cam Heyward after his breakout 2013 season? Why let Keisel go if you're just going to sign him back and hand him the start? This was your post:

How were they old and slow last year? Hood is gone and replaced by the exact same age guy in Thomas. They had a rookie at ROLB and LILB. Even if Shazier starts, he is taking the place of another rookie. The only spot on defense that is younger than last year is safety where they signed a 27 year old Mitchell. So they are younger now because of ONE guy?

You've painted yourself into a corner and rather than admit it you start with hypotheticals that fly in the face of common sense. You forgot Keisel. It's plain as day.