Atheist kills 3 innocent college students

[Elfiero]

You could have stopped right there. He/she hates every single person walking the Earth other than himself/herself. It seethes out of every word. That is good example of somebody that gets absolutely zero joy out of life.

Yeah that must be it. Maybe you can pull out the 'he hates god because of something that happened in his life' card next.

Convenient way to avoid the logical coherence of the arguments I've made....

I can assure you I enjoy life far more than those who live in fear of everyone who doesn't subscribe to their particular fairy tale.

 

[Elfiero]

What I want to know is how being a Christian and a conservative makes one a simpleton. Growing up in a Christian and conservative household surely influenced who I am, and helped me to make decisions that I know kept me out of a lot of problems. I am not saying that only someone who is Christian and conservative can make those decisions. I just know it helped me.

It helped me to understand the value of work. Going to the job and giving your best, and then going home. Not being a "locker room lawyer." Subsequently, I have had two jobs in 25+ years, and the first one I left for a better one.

It helped me to understand the importance of the vows of marriage. I haven't cheated on my wife in the 24+ years we have been together, 28 if you count dating. Besides, when you can get steak whenever you want, why risk getting hamburger? But I have seen the mess created when people do this, the hurt and wrecked lives.

It helped me understand that when you have a kid, you have to put away selfish desires and realize you have an awesome responsibility. Again, because I was able to do that, I have avoided a lot of issues that other people have had to deal with.

Anyway, it seems as if the idea advanced by Elfiero is that we are simpletons, and by extension, have missed out on something. What have I missed out on?

I didn't call you a simpleton I was referring to those evangelicals who voted for Reagan in 1980.

What does it say about you as a person though when you claim avoidance of things that should naturally be avoided only because you are afraid?

Those are things you as an individual would have avoided anyway, people who are Christian don't behave any better than people who aren't. It's only the psychopaths who are intimidated by the idea of an even bigger,stronger, more capable 'psychopath in the sky' that are sometimes swayed into somewhat decent behavior, while this is socially beneficial to an extent, it's also manipulative. This backfires in the case of the extremists though who take those same scribblings and use them for violence(remember they were psychopaths to begin with).

Atheist are about 0.07% of the federal prison population, the rest are mainly religious..... Don't even get me started on the Christian divorce rate.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friend...ists-its-a-lot-smaller-than-we-ever-imagined/

 

[Elfiero]

Princeton. Harvard Law School. Corporate Board Positions. $300k salary.

90% of the white males I know want some of that "black woman experience".

Boundless dumbassery in your posts.

Yes she was born in the Princeton infirmary and enjoyed white privilege from her first breath.....

Boundless....never mind you'll just steal it. It's what the man does.

 

[tapeANaspirin2it]

Actually it seems that the juxtaposition of Superman and Hulk within the framework of mythology I was hinting at (yes Christianity) seems to have gone over your head as I'm sure it did 99% of the others on here. Guess you did really well at your community college.

So you believe that good people within the Soviet Union committed evil? There were millions who didn't join the party even though it would have made their lives easier, again what does atheism have to do with communism?

When the pogroms of the 19th century(before communism) murdered thousands of Jews who do you think was pushing the antisemitism in Russia? The Russian Orthodox Church that's who. While not complicit at the top levels of the church(can't be proven anyway) many, many bishops and priests were egging the people on with the old "they killed Jesus" mantra. Evil people raised in czarist Russia could easily be rallied to the new religion(the state) and it's murder and purges when the Bolsheviks came to power because they had already been conditioned BY THE CHURCH.

In Russia for centuries even before the 19th century pogroms Jews had been rounded up and murdered, in fact in all of Europe the hatred of the Jews had been fostered by the Christian church since Jews first arrived there. Which brings us to Hitler.

While you can not make any kind of a case for an individual or a political entity killing in the name of Atheism; again the communists killed for the state and in the case of Stalin because he was a psychopath, I can easily make the argument WITH PROOF that Hitler was a Christian and urged others to kill for the sake of Christianity and racism. Hitler is directly responsible for the deaths of 60 million and Hitler played on the hatred fostered by the church in Europe for centuries to motivate Germans : "to get a good person to do evil....that takes religion" Just like Weinberg said.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Mein_Kampf

What a good Catholic..........I'll cut and paste now to humor your attempt to belittle the extent of my knowledge.

From Mein Kampf:

I was placed in a very favourable position to be emotionally impressed again and again by the magnificent splendour of ecclesiastical ceremonial. What could be more natural for me than to look upon the Abbot as representing the highest human ideal worth striving for, just as the position of the humble village priest had appeared to my father in his own boyhood days?

I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn splendor of the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my father, the highest and most desirable ideal.


And so I believe to-day that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator. In standing guard against the Jew I am defending the handiwork of the Lord.

Therefore, I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work.I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.

And the knockout punch:

http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison.

I'd stay down if I were you

Here was your attempt at an insulting analogy

"You CONservatives are to reason what kryptonite is to superman."

Your intent was to say that conservatives are destroyed by reason. What your analogy actually says is conservatives destroy reason. As i said backwards.

Then you probably googled some bullshit about Superman and religion and regurgitated it here to pretend like you were trying to make some deeper point. You fool nobody.

As for your Hitler strawman, it's irrelevant. The point i correctly made is that the liberal talking point that "more people have been killed in the name of religion blah blah blah" is just a canard. (there's something for you to look up too since you seem to love to google.)

Hitler may have called himself Christian but that was not what drove him. He was a National Socialist and that is why he murdered his political rivals to take power. His actions go against Christian teachings.

Now go google a passage from the Bible that mentions violence and then set up another strawman that says it is OK with mass genocide.

 

[diver]

I haven't avoided anything. If you'll notice that I'm one person being confronted by many and that I don't spend my entire life on here, then you'll understand.

First of all climate change science is based on EVIDENCE not belief. That you would try to imply coequality between the two shows either your ignorance on the subjects or an attempt at bringing science down to the level of wishful thinking.

The question in climate science is not the same as in Christian belief. This is the analogy you're trying to equate with being 'saved':

'There is a less than 1% chance your house will burn down yet how many people buy fire insurance?' That analogy is addressing the possible consequences of inaction when it comes to climate change. This is based on EVIDENCE because we have the PHYSICAL EVIDENCE of what past climate change and current climate change is doing to the planet.

Your side is a false analogy based on belief; how do you know that it's Jesus and not Allah you're supposed to be following to be saved? You don't know because you don't base it on evidence.

Any middle school student can do a simple repeatable experiment showing how CO2 and other greenhouse gases absorb and release infrared radiation. What evidence do you have for your belief? Oh that's right nothing, nada, zilch......that is belief friend, that you would put the two on the same level is absurd.

Better yet how do you make the quantum leap from; 'I believe there is a god' to ' I believe it's the Christian god'? In my mind that requires a leap of nonsensical thinking so bizarre that I'm not able to begin to grasp it.

If you read Steeltimes infantile attempts to put together an argument even he is not stupid(I can hope) enough to leave the position of the deist.

And that ties us to Pascal's wager which I touched on already. That is the argument you are making without even realizing it, I'm almost sure. How do you know Allah isn't the right god, or Vishnu, Zeus, and on and on? What if you're wrong, then what for you?

You've reduced your belief and your attempt to convince others to engage in it with you to a simple bet......what happened to faith, beauty, hope, and "intelligent design"? You abandon it all for a petty bet based on irrational fear. Sad.

And what does it say about your god when all he asks from you above all else is to believe? Barabbas was saved from the cross because of this disgusting concept and Hitler before committing suicide could just utter 'I accept Jesus Christ as my lord and Saviour' (maybe he had long before) and get away with the deaths of 60 million. Maybe he's goose stepping on those golden roads as we speak.........

All you give up is your ability to think for yourself and reason, if you want to do that then go ahead. One more thing though when it comes to that:

Which do you think your god would have more respect for; A person who uses the mind and reasoning ability he gave them, or a person who just blindly believes? As we all know from our personal experiences no one likes a brown noser, especially the one who has the nose implanted in them.

That you have avoided bad things in life because of some ancient scribblings and the fear they instilled in you speaks more about you than the scribblings. I have also avoided many bad things in life thanks to reasoning and understanding; the understanding that there are consequences to my actions and that the right to swing my arm stops at the other guys nose.

Your fear mongering doesn't work on those that can and choose to think. All it shows us is how people like you attempt to project your own child like fright onto others.

I wasn't questioning the validity of climate change one way or the other. I was just stating that a similar argument has been used. John Kerry, I believe, used it.

Fear is a good thing. There is nothing wrong with it. Fear of not being able to pay bills is one thing that keeps people going to work. If you played sports, fear of not playing or embarrassing yourself keeps working hard. And yes, there is a fear of going someplace I would rather not after I leave this mortal coil. I do not feel this has limited my thinking in anyway. You talk about hope. Christian faith is all about hope. Hope that I will go to heaven, hope that once there I will see family again. The hope of finally having the answers.

I have not made any attempt to try to get you to think as I do. I could care less. I am trying to determine why I am a simpleton, or what I am missing having this belief. You cannot really answer that, because the truth is, I have missed nothing. I think to be as opposed to religion as you are you must feel there is something out there someone like me isn't experiencing. The entire tone of your posts seems to express this.

 

[diver]

I didn't call you a simpleton I was referring to those evangelicals who voted for Reagan in 1980.

What does it say about you as a person though when you claim avoidance of things that should naturally be avoided only because you are afraid?

Those are things you as an individual would have avoided anyway, people who are Christian don't behave any better than people who aren't. It's only the psychopaths who are intimidated by the idea of an even bigger,stronger, more capable 'psychopath in the sky' that are sometimes swayed into somewhat decent behavior, while this is socially beneficial to an extent, it's also manipulative. This backfires in the case of the extremists though who take those same scribblings and use them for violence(remember they were psychopaths to begin with).

Atheist are about 0.07% of the federal prison population, the rest are mainly religious..... Don't even get me started on the Christian divorce rate.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friend...ists-its-a-lot-smaller-than-we-ever-imagined/

Avoiding them because I am afraid? That is how you would define it. I have seen the mess it causes. I don't want that mess. What you call fear I call common sense.

 

[Elfiero]

Avoiding them because I am afraid? That is how you would define it. I have seen the mess it causes. I don't want that mess. What you call fear I call common sense.

Yes avoiding them because it was in your best interest and because you are afraid of some imaginary punishment, not because of your own innate morality which I believe you possess. That is what you are stating, is it not? You are telling me that why not bet on Jesus because if I'm wrong....we know the outcome, right? We should be afraid of that outcome should we not?

So it's not love of your god that drives you, part of it's fear.

And now you step even farther away and call it common sense and unknowingly inch closer to the right answer.

 

[diver]

Yes avoiding them because it was in your best interest and because you are afraid of some imaginary punishment, not because of your own innate morality which I believe you possess. That is what you are stating, is it not? You are telling me that why not bet on Jesus because if I'm wrong....we know the outcome, right? We should be afraid of that outcome should we not?

So it's not love of your god that drives you, part of it's fear.

And now you step even farther away and call it common sense and unknowingly inch closer to the right answer.

I have faith, therefore I cannot separate things out. What I mean is I believe the common sense I have used to stay out of those situations comes from my faith in God. It is all connected.

Fear is an interesting thing, and hard to define. I fear snakes, however I love to hike. I still hike, so that fear has not kept me from doing something. I just take simple precautions, like not putting earphones in and listening to music so I can hear if one rattles. I like drinking beer, but I fear getting a DUI. Therefore, I know my limits. When I think of the fear of God, that is the way I look at it. It has kept me from much trouble, but has not limited me in anyway. I see the fear of God as a logical thing. I also have been blessed to see the beauty of God and the many good things people do in His name. Do you have any fears, or is the atheist life one of no fear?

Having faith is not easy, contrary to what you may think, because you are having faith in something you don't see, and in words written a long time ago. That is what makes it hard. It would be so much easier if everyday you could look up and physically see Him. Therefore when you say fear of God is what partly drives people, absolutely. I will not hide from that. But how ha that made my life any less fulfilling?

You use lots of words in many posts to explain your positions. I use very few. One wonders if it is because you are not quite as comfortable in your positions as you say you are?

 

[hamster]

Yes she was born in the Princeton infirmary and enjoyed white privilege from her first breath.....

Boundless....never mind you'll just steal it. It's what the man does.

You are correct. The White Privilege Goon Squad must have missed her when they were handing out the scarlet letters. Damn it, one got away.

 

[Rod Farva]

No one here gives a **** that you're an atheist. Why do you care so deeply about trashing the religious?

 

[CharlesDavenport]

Convenient way to avoid the logical coherence of the arguments I've made....

That's rich.

 

[JupiterBnG]

No one here gives a **** that you're an atheist. Why do you care so deeply about trashing the religious?

Why do you care so deeply about disparaging atheists, agnostics and just about anyone else with a non-Christian belief?

 

[Rod Farva]

Why do you care so deeply about disparaging atheists, agnostics and just about anyone else with a non-Christian belief?

Wanna show me where I've done that? I couldn't give a damn less about any of them or what they believe unless they're sworn to killing me.

 

[Ron Burgundy]

Wanna show me where I've done that? I couldn't give a damn less about any of them or what they believe unless they're sworn to killing me.

The ones who are sworn to kill you, and me, aren't atheists. They're believers. They believe a whole lot.

 

[Rod Farva]

Why do you care so deeply about disparaging atheists, agnostics and just about anyone else with a non-Christian belief?

The ones who are sworn to kill you, and me, aren't atheists. They're believers. They believe a whole lot.

See above. But being accused of something I haven't done pisses me off.

 

[JupiterBnG]

See above. But being accused of something I haven't done pisses me off.

This whole thread is predicated on attacking anyone with other than Christian beliefs, but since you will probably want a specific example:

http://steelernation.com/showthread...llege-students&p=107353&viewfull=1#post107353

 

[DBS1970]

This whole thread is predicated on attacking anyone with other than Christian beliefs, but since you will probably want a specific example:

http://steelernation.com/showthread...llege-students&p=107353&viewfull=1#post107353

Ummmmm......No.

This thread is predicated on the MSM initially speculating on this being a hate crime. Its actually a situation where we are clowning the MSM for trying to put this into a male, white supremacist, bible thumper template and it blowing up in their faces.

 

[JupiterBnG]

Ummmmm......No.

This thread is predicated on the MSM initially speculating on this being a hate crime. Its actually a situation where we are clowning the MSM for trying to put this into a male, white supremacist, bible thumper template and it blowing up in their faces.

Right, because (the collective) you object to the "male, white supremacist, bible thumper template" on the grounds that your Christian faith is threatened or attacked. So in response, the point of the OP is, "So now we have to deal with radical atheists on top of everything else." Suggesting that atheists are religious extremists in a class with muslim terrorists because one guy who has rage issues also happens to be a confirmed atheist, despite the fact that there's no evidence that the events in the story had anything to do with religion or atheism but was the culmination of an ongoing fight over a parking space.

It would have been different if the thread had started out by saying "wow, the MSM are such ******** for trying to turn this into a racial or religious issue." Instead it was "look at the violent atheist, on top of all the ******* muslims we already have to deal with!"

 

[Rod Farva]

This whole thread is predicated on attacking anyone with other than Christian beliefs, but since you will probably want a specific example:

http://steelernation.com/showthread...llege-students&p=107353&viewfull=1#post107353

That's it? That's what you came up with? Don't know why I feel like I need to explain to you that my animosity and antipathy directed towards the person I was addressing is due to their being.....

1. Arrogant
2. Ignorant
3. Dismissive
4. Rude
5. Disdainful
6. Pompous
7.Boorish
and
8. Offensive

....and NOT because they profess atheism, but I will. Guess I just did, huh? Think before you post.

Ummmmm......No.

This thread is predicated on the MSM initially speculating on this being a hate crime. Its actually a situation where we are clowning the MSM for trying to put this into a male, white supremacist, bible thumper template and it blowing up in their faces.

Save your fingers man....sarcasm is wasted on the willfully obtuse.

 

[Elfiero]

I have faith, therefore I cannot separate things out. What I mean is I believe the common sense I have used to stay out of those situations comes from my faith in God. It is all connected.

Fear is an interesting thing, and hard to define. I fear snakes, however I love to hike. I still hike, so that fear has not kept me from doing something. I just take simple precautions, like not putting earphones in and listening to music so I can hear if one rattles. I like drinking beer, but I fear getting a DUI. Therefore, I know my limits. When I think of the fear of God, that is the way I look at it. It has kept me from much trouble, but has not limited me in anyway. I see the fear of God as a logical thing. I also have been blessed to see the beauty of God and the many good things people do in His name. Do you have any fears, or is the atheist life one of no fear?

Having faith is not easy, contrary to what you may think, because you are having faith in something you don't see, and in words written a long time ago. That is what makes it hard. It would be so much easier if everyday you could look up and physically see Him. Therefore when you say fear of God is what partly drives people, absolutely. I will not hide from that. But how ha that made my life any less fulfilling?

You use lots of words in many posts to explain your positions. I use very few. One wonders if it is because you are not quite as comfortable in your positions as you say you are?

The reason I use many words is because most here don't have a clue as to the background and real truth of many things that they claim to understand and claim to be true.

I won't go on and on but I'll answer one of your questions; of course Atheists have fears like anyone else, in fact the fear of snakes(for most) is probably hard wired into us through evolution. Religion is different, it's a meme that really is obsolete in that it was necessary for primitive man that had not a clue as to how things worked, we are no longer that man, and there is no need to fear reprisal from the 'thunder god' or Yahweh or whatever.

I would say if it fulfills you that is great. The problem is that most don't keep their fulfillment to themselves, they vote for politicians who deny women their reproductive rights, or LGBT's their's as well as for other liberty oppressing issues. Again just like I said earlier that knowing that the right to swing my arm ends at the other guys nose is how I understand morality, this is no obstacle to the religious.

The arrogance and whatever other list of terms another poster here used to describe Atheists ARE EXACTLY WHAT CHRISTIANS and other theists display for all to see.

Just watch the first 3 minutes of this and it will be crystal clear to you. I've worked with people like the Christian woman in the pink blouse. Living in the south all my life I've dealt with these morons the entire time: arrogant,judgmental, condescending, etc. Everything the other poster attributed to Atheists, except for one thing they have in spades, ignorance.

Asking if the new age lady(more nonsense) in the red blouse believed in " God or a higher power" as if the two are mutually exclusive when according to her beliefs both are true, these are the kind of idiots that are too numerous to count where I live.

Asking if we are all one "with the terrorists, rapists, etc." Ah.... YEAH DUMBASS all they have to do is accept Jesus as lord. They ARE ALL EQUAL TO YOU, ALL HAVE SINNED. They get to spend eternity in that theme park in the sky with you.....so I guess they do end up getting punished lol.

 

[Hineswardkickedurpanzyass]

$50 says if elfie was in a cage with lighter fluid soaking into his/her skin that he/she would be praying to someone.

 

[diver]

The reason I use many words is because most here don't have a clue as to the background and real truth of many things that they claim to understand and claim to be true.

I won't go on and on but I'll answer one of your questions; of course Atheists have fears like anyone else, in fact the fear of snakes(for most) is probably hard wired into us through evolution. Religion is different, it's a meme that really is obsolete in that it was necessary for primitive man that had not a clue as to how things worked, we are no longer that man, and there is no need to fear reprisal from the 'thunder god' or Yahweh or whatever.

I would say if it fulfills you that is great. The problem is that most don't keep their fulfillment to themselves, they vote for politicians who deny women their reproductive rights, or LGBT's their's as well as for other liberty oppressing issues. Again just like I said earlier that knowing that the right to swing my arm ends at the other guys nose is how I understand morality, this is no obstacle to the religious.

The arrogance and whatever other list of terms another poster here used to describe Atheists ARE EXACTLY WHAT CHRISTIANS and other theists display for all to see.

Just watch the first 3 minutes of this and it will be crystal clear to you. I've worked with people like the Christian woman in the pink blouse. Living in the south all my life I've dealt with these morons the entire time: arrogant,judgmental, condescending, etc. Everything the other poster attributed to Atheists, except for one thing they have in spades, ignorance.

Asking if the new age lady(more nonsense) in the red blouse believed in " God or a higher power" as if the two are mutually exclusive when according to her beliefs both are true, these are the kind of idiots that are too numerous to count where I live.

Asking if we are all one "with the terrorists, rapists, etc." Ah.... YEAH DUMBASS all they have to do is accept Jesus as lord. They ARE ALL EQUAL TO YOU, ALL HAVE SINNED. They get to spend eternity in that theme park in the sky with you.....so I guess they do end up getting punished lol.

You are simplifying issues that Christians vote on, to some degree. You say a Christian will vote to deny a woman their reproductive rights. The way I look at that one is what about the rights of the unborn child? Who protects their rights? I don't think Christians go to the polls saying they have to vote to deny women that right as much as they do to champion the rights of the most innocent. I have struggled with the abortion issue, to be honest. I do not like the idea of the government telling anyone what they can do with their body. I don't like them sanctioning it, either. Ultimately, I do not like the term freedom of choice. We are all adults, and we all know that the choice is made when one decides to have sex (excluding rape and incest). Since a bad choice was made previously, don't hide behind freedom of choice now.

As it pertains to LBGT rights, again, I just don't like calling it marriage. I have no problem with civil unions and believe a partner should be allowed all the rights of a married couple, I just do not like it called marriage. That is between a man and a woman. That is what it was defined as. I don't call a yellow lab a golden retriever.

As it pertains to suppressing of liberty, I am sorry. I am just shy of 50, and in my lifetime, I do not recall an administration that did more things to suppress liberty than this one.

Lastly, there are crazies everywhere. I wish there were youtube videos of everyday Christians who just go to work, try to do the right things, help people when and where they can or otherwise just let them alone. That overwhelmingly describes most of the people I know. I have been disappointed by a few people claiming to be upstanding Christians. That is a tough thing to take, someone strutting around being a show off, and then in their private life doing some vile things. However, I just don't think you can blame God for that. We have been given free will. Therefore, I don't blame God for the mistakes people make, and that helps me to maintain my faith.

 

[Elfiero]

$50 says if elfie was in a cage with lighter fluid soaking into his/her skin that he/she would be praying to someone.

$1,000 says you and I in the same situation would be hoping that a helicopter full of soldiers sent by someone in the Pentagon who received information from a drone, routed through satellites, then maybe fiber optic cable would show up. All things brought to you by science.

You can also pray to the magical hippie or whatever character resides in your particular delusion if you want, he ain't helping. He/she/it/they never does.

Don't you think all the other victims tried that? How did it work out?

 

[DBS1970]

Right, because (the collective) you object to the "male, white supremacist, bible thumper template" on the grounds that your Christian faith is threatened or attacked. So in response, the point of the OP is, "So now we have to deal with radical atheists on top of everything else." Suggesting that atheists are religious extremists in a class with muslim terrorists because one guy who has rage issues also happens to be a confirmed atheist, despite the fact that there's no evidence that the events in the story had anything to do with religion or atheism but was the culmination of an ongoing fight over a parking space.

It would have been different if the thread had started out by saying "wow, the MSM are such ******** for trying to turn this into a racial or religious issue." Instead it was "look at the violent atheist, on top of all the ******* muslims we already have to deal with!"

No the point was that after it came out that this nutter was a big government neo-socialist fellow traveler and an atheist to boot the MSM moved of with a quickness to other stories. The MSM would still be talking about this if he had fit the template they like to portray. The double standard in reportage is the point.

 

[Rod Farva]

The arrogance and whatever other list of terms another poster here used to describe Atheists ARE EXACTLY WHAT CHRISTIANS and other theists display for all to see.

Why don't you just type "I know you are but what am I"? Seems appropriately commensurate with the rest of your drivel.

Everything the other poster attributed to Atheists, except for one thing they have in spades, ignorance.

Read the list again. Ignorance is #2. What are you, ignorant?

It's okay dwarfie....you can use my site name......not that difficult to spell. I demand attribution! And to be fair, the attributes listed belong to you. Again, subtlety and sarcasm seem to be wasted on the obtuse.